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Diogines
Dec 22, 2007


Ou am not sure if we will have an update tonight, we will if I can. If not, expect one tomorrow for sure.

Diogines fucked around with this message at Oct 1, 2013 around 23:27

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Deadly Ham Sandwich
Aug 19, 2009

Labaras went into the wilds and brought Enkidu food and then, brought him a slave from the Temple of El, to um... shall we say, gentle him.



Smellrose

Hey, if you guys are all worried about Snarls' mortality and survivability, let's just ask Azzazel to turn him into turn him into a giant turtle. Snarl would live over 100 years and be able to survive over a month without food and water.

RandomPauI
Nov 24, 2006



Grimey Drawer

He'll turn Snarls into a leatherback seaturtle. If the lack of an ocean doesn't get him the poachers will.

FoxTerrier
Feb 15, 2012

Perfectly logical poster who uses the tools available to him to come to solid conclusions



I'm too exhausted / crazy busy right now to figure out which overall plan is best, but for the Snarls mini-vote, go ahead and put me down for a 10.

Sogol
Apr 11, 2013

Galileo's Finger

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB0p97kWg94

We are in an oasis that apparently has water. I hope Snarls is smart enough to just go drink some water if he is thirsty.

LLSix
Jan 20, 2010

The real power behind countless overlords

Snarls love gets a 6 It's a dog. We love him and he's awesome and the best dog ever, but he's a dog. Plus, we've seen people get killed to death while they're standing not 5 feet from us. Death isn't a stranger, it's an unusually frequent companion for Enkidel. Heck, Enkidel was not just told stories about death since he's earliest memories - he had to memorize stories about death as a direct result of the violent action of a malevolent being he fully expected to be responsible for placating one day. He'll manage.

UppaTree
May 3, 2013



Lessee here..

1: A. Take it and drink it. He wouldn't poison us BEFORE we can tell the story

2: D. Tell him all about Ishmal except where he can be found.

3: E. Food and water for us and Snarls, enough to last three days.

Seems a fair trade, and I think it's important we trade fairly with this thing. It has had a Long loving Time to think up ways to dick people over, so it likely can find a way to screw us without violating Sacred Hospitality if it really wanted to.

4: 7.

Mot 10. No good can come of seeking immortality for a dog, and I don't think we'd be completely inconsolable, but we should be torn up over it. Losing Jalitha or Danal would be an 8 or 9.

UppaTree fucked around with this message at Oct 2, 2013 around 11:17

Nettle Soup
Jan 30, 2010

Oh, and Jones was there too.


College Slice

7 for the dog. In the end, he's our buddy and our confidant, and it's an odd thing, but people often allow themselves to bond much more strongly and grieve much more openly for an animal than a person. It wouldn't destroy us, but we're not indifferent either.

On this scale, probably a 6 for our mother but a 10 for Danal, we've spent the last however many years of our life protecting him, it'd be a big loss. Our mother, yeah she's awesome, but pretty much everyone sees their parents die, it's a fact of life, and we haven't spoken to her much lately anyway.

Deadly Ham Sandwich
Aug 19, 2009

Labaras went into the wilds and brought Enkidu food and then, brought him a slave from the Temple of El, to um... shall we say, gentle him.



Smellrose

I don't know why I didn't think of this before.

In our bargain, we could tell Azzazel, "We are close friends with Ishamal, a generous and wise man. I wonder what he will think when I tell him I met Azzazel in the desert, and he tried to leave me to die in the wastes unless I sacrificed my dog and everything I hold dear. In his city, not even a poor man would refuse to help an enemy dying of thirst and hunger in the harsh wastes."

Let's threaten Azzazel. I don't like him, and it will give us more leverage in our bargaining.

ShadowGlass
Nov 13, 2012



One possible problem with plan OhYo is that if we do that, Azz might decide that we are actually lying and don't know Ishamal after all and let us die in the desert.

I have no clue if he is telling the truth about him and Ishamal being age-old buddies, or if they are age-old enemies and he wants to track him down. The sudden change in his attitude makes it obvious that he really-really wants to know about him though. He seems like a guy who'd have to force himself to be so nice to such a lowly creature as us (you could almost hear the gritting teeth behind the smiles).

The "I don't want to get into trouble" slip is interesting too...

While we are considering bargaining, we could also ask about our father.

Sogol
Apr 11, 2013

Galileo's Finger

Deadly Ham Sandwich posted:

Let's threaten Azzazel. I don't like him, and it will give us more leverage in our bargaining.

It a good idea. I don't think threatening him directly without a lot more leverage will work though. Dropping something along the lines of 'haha, what an excellent story this is going to be to tell Ishamal" or something like that might work though. If there are consequences for him, we are the innocent fool who is going to 'get him in trouble' completely unintentionally. One risk is we do not exactly know how much of a threat this is to him. Does he suddenly need to kill us to prevent it, even if that is against the 'rules'? Dropping a few Ishamalisms gives us credibility:
- spit in the eye of death
- never miss the chance to eat, drink, or gently caress
- etc.

I think we can:
  • deny Azz's assertions which will almost always be self serving distortions. He may even offer us things that we already have, but of which we are unaware or which are not his to give. He has really told us nothing that is verifiable fact beyond his assertion that it is. Limiting information, usually followed by divide and conquer, create doubt, etc.
  • take things freely given
  • imply consequences (innocently when possible)

I am hoping that Plan OhYo turns into:
- a stronger position at the table
- saving our energy at the Oasis during the heat of the day
- Snarls casually drinking some of the Oasis water (have we ever tried telepathy with Snarls?)

In order for these things to work we must really be prepared to walk. I do not think he will 'walk' at any point. We could probably spend our entire trial negotiating/being tempted by him and he would not actually walk. Time is sort of nothing to him, which is why it makes an excellent unseen loophole.

In further negotiations/story telling I am hoping:
- we might actually learn something
- we get some incorruptible materials or where the corruption is still useful (e.g. a bow) without giving anything material or substantive
- we spend as much time as possible in the shade
- we do not compromise Ishamal

If we get enough leverage we can threaten him, but mostly only if we can and are willing to make good on it. At present he can just pretend he does not care though. We have no way of backing it up.

He will basically always assume implied debt in his favor when he can and in negotiations press us to always offer more and more for less and less in return. This is what has happened so far at least. He wants suffering as a result of the deal and not just ours. That is what constitutes a good deal for him, according to him. It is his currency and his nature for the most part. A Br'er Rabbit strategy might work for this. Hard to say. The thing with Ishamal is a bit different since he might want something beyond his appetite for suffering/sorrow and for some reason there are potential negative consequences for him of even talking about it.

Someone suggested in the vote (JT Jag) that magical beings are bound by their word. We don't really know this. Even if true, we should relate to specific promises as if we were dealing with the slimiest lawyer you can imagine who will alter the deal or make it have negative consequences for us based on interpretation and technicalities. He has already demonstrated this. The more specific we are about conditions the worse this tends to get.

All in all a kind of precocious innocence and foolishness cloaking stubbornness might serve us best and seems to me consistent with who we are at this point in many ways. The other thing that works is full on humility, since he is a being of pride, but I am not sure we are collectively capable of that.

Sogol fucked around with this message at Oct 2, 2013 around 16:48

Sogol
Apr 11, 2013

Galileo's Finger

#1, 2 & 3 Counted through Uppa Tree (27 voters):

pre:
1-Coco				
A	B	C	D	E
5	5	0	12	5

2-Ishamal						
A	B	C	D	E	F	G
3	1	0	18	0	0	5

3-Hope you guess my name...					
A	B	C	D	E	F
4	4	1	1	3	1

G	H	I	J	K	L
1	1	1	2	2	2	

M	N	O	P	Q
1	1	3	2	16
Notes:
  • 9x Q are named as plan OhYo with tone variations
  • 3x Q are plan Basscop
  • 4x Q are singles including: ART theory, Labaras question, teleportation to trees, Gourd and various negotiations
  • 1-E added by player for 'sip coco give to Snarls'
Legend

Tomn
Aug 23, 2007

And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands


Deadly Ham Sandwich posted:

I don't know why I didn't think of this before.

In our bargain, we could tell Azzazel, "We are close friends with Ishamal, a generous and wise man. I wonder what he will think when I tell him I met Azzazel in the desert, and he tried to leave me to die in the wastes unless I sacrificed my dog and everything I hold dear. In his city, not even a poor man would refuse to help an enemy dying of thirst and hunger in the harsh wastes."

Let's threaten Azzazel. I don't like him, and it will give us more leverage in our bargaining.

Bad idea. Bad idea. VERY BAD IDEA. We don't know poo poo really about Ishmael. Azzhole apparently knew him for literal ages. You really want to try getting one over on him when he knows more than we do? Best case scenario we look like idiots, worst-case scenario we look like liars. We don't really know poo poo about how Ishmael will react to us dying out here (after all, presumably if he knew about the manhood trial he'd know we'd go up against Azzhole eventually, right?). Azzhole, on the other hand, considers him an old friend. You're going to try threatening a potentially rather powerful being using leverage we don't know that we actually have or in fact know anything about. It's like a caveman trying to threaten the Pope by name-dropping Jesus.

Don't have time exactly to think this over carefully or vote right now, but I gotta say, you guys seem REALLY distrusting of Azzhole's softening for some reason. I mean, sure, he almost certainly seems to be some sort of trickster spirit, but what exactly would he have to gain from pretending to know and like Ishmael? How exactly can he screw us over harder than he already can if we give him the latest? And the fact that some desert spirit is chill with Ishmael certainly fits into Ishmael's own known image of being the ancient wanderer who's been around forever and knows all sorts of things and people. I get the idea of caution when dealing with the unknown, but keep in mind that he presumably shows up on a semi-regular basis to Zepathans - if he was a perfect trickster spirit who could flawlessly screw over everyone he meets, Zepath would be a lot emptier than it is now.

I guess the main thing that's bugging me is that Azzhole appears to be softening up and toning things down from the maniac salesman schtick, and it kinda seems like the main reaction is either "Let's screw him while his guard is down!" or "NO gently caress YOU." We wanna try and maybe encourage him being less of an rear end in a top hat instead of straight-up flipping him the bird? Not saying we have to give away anything for free, but that doesn't mean we can't smile and be polite while we do so.

Lanky Coconut Tree
Apr 7, 2011

An angry tree.

The angriest tree


Something to think about is that you may be bringing in your own interpretations of the 'tempting in the desert' scenario. Just to remind ourselves, we know literally 1 line about Azzazel in this universe, that's it.

Tomn
Aug 23, 2007

And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands


Lanky Coconut Tree posted:

Something to think about is that you may be bringing in your own interpretations of the 'tempting in the desert' scenario. Just to remind ourselves, we know literally 1 line about Azzazel in this universe, that's it.

Sure - I think one possibility that some aren't quite considering is the possibility that Azzazel is being completely and entirely honest about what he gives and what he wants, and the only "trick" involved is that he enjoys feeding on goats/animals who people are attached to. Maybe the whole point of the manhood test is just to see for yourself what kind of guy you are - are you someone willing to make hard choices to ensure survival? Or are you someone willing to let go of your childhood to enter into manhood? Or are you someone who sticks to his principles no matter the risk to himself - and who is able to survive regardless? Maybe the only moral issue involved with Azzazel is the one within ourselves - whether we can justify the decision we make and how we justify it.

No guarantee that Azzazel is a demon, a trickster spirit, a god, an angel, a bored magician, or an illusionist! What we really have to go on is what we can see of him, and what we've seen is someone who seems to calm down when reminiscing about the old days with Ishmael instead of selling a spiel about survival. Why not let him have that bone, albeit for whatever price we can get?

Deadly Ham Sandwich
Aug 19, 2009

Labaras went into the wilds and brought Enkidu food and then, brought him a slave from the Temple of El, to um... shall we say, gentle him.



Smellrose

We also know he tried to take Snarls away from us. He is the enemy. Our sacrifice to El should be Azzazel's corpse.

Sogol
Apr 11, 2013

Galileo's Finger

Maybe refer to what he says he 'loves' about which he could be lying of course.

- Goats, maybe for themselves, but apparently because of the value they hold for others
- suffering
- sorrow

Basically he is an Uber Goon looking to harvest sweet Manimal tears, etc. We are the pubbie in this scenario.

Tomn
Aug 23, 2007

And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands


Sogol posted:

Maybe refer to what he says he 'loves' about which he could be lying of course.

- Goats, maybe for themselves, but apparently because of the value they hold for others
- suffering
- sorrow

Basically he is an Uber Goon looking to harvest sweet Manimal tears, etc. We are the pubbie in this scenario.

Interesting point to note, though: Though apparently he loves suffering and sorrow, he ADMITS outright that he wants suffering and sorrow. He could have gained his suffering through some form of deception. He could gain it (in theory) by outright killing Snarls where he stands. Instead, he comes up to us and asks for Snarls in trade. He goes right up to us and tells us he wants the suffering and sorrow that comes of separation instead of laying low until he gets his goal. That says something - though what it says exactly I'm sure I don't know. Is he bound somehow not to trick or directly commit violence? Does suffering only count if it's freely given in a fair exchange? Is he just arrogant enough that he's sure he'll get his goal without needing to resort to cheap tricks? Is he just a fan of trade in general? Does he believe in teaching people lessons about free will? Is he just bound somehow to be honest or else?

Who knows? But it does make the whole "devil's temptation" scenario a little more complicated.

Basscop
Jun 4, 2010

Lightnin? HA! Thats a good 'un!
Now why dontcha
come o'er here and
GET

IN

MY

BELLY!!!


Question to dio: Does he have a fedora, neckbeard of a bowtie?

Diogines
Dec 22, 2007


He is wearing a garment exactly as depicted in the picture. No fedora or bow tie. His beard is the one displayed.

Diogines
Dec 22, 2007


Voting is closed.

Diogines
Dec 22, 2007


Voting is re-opened till the update actually goes up. I am running rather late today and not sure if we will get one up tonight, I am really sorry if not.

Nettle Soup
Jan 30, 2010

Oh, and Jones was there too.


College Slice

It happens, take your time

Sogol
Apr 11, 2013

Galileo's Finger

Please enjoy this lovely musical interlude from Azz's Oasis Beats bringing you the best in prevarication and suffering 24/10. Sit back and reeeelax. We will return to regularly scheduled programming shortly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yNLUsCFV7M

Sogol
Apr 11, 2013

Galileo's Finger

Stay tuned kiddies. Your listening to Azz's Oasis Beat's, bringing you all the best in temptation, corruption and suffering for those moments of existential angst.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz1ex78QeQI

Sogol
Apr 11, 2013

Galileo's Finger

Hi. Are you tired of starvation, dehydration and impending doom? Well, this is your lucky day! Come on in to Azz's Oasis and put your feet up for a spell. Have a sit down. Make a deal. We cater to all appetites!

And now back to Azz's Oasis Beats. You know you want to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRXGsPBUV5g

FoxTerrier
Feb 15, 2012

Perfectly logical poster who uses the tools available to him to come to solid conclusions



Sogol posted:

Stay tuned kiddies. Your listening to Azz's Oasis Beat's, bringing you all the best in temptation, corruption and suffering for those moments of existential angst.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz1ex78QeQI

Goddammit Sogol, now I'm forever going to picture Azzazal as that dude form the Starland Vocal Band.

Sogol
Apr 11, 2013

Galileo's Finger

Your listening to Azz's Oasis Beats, brought to you by Tender Bit's 'O Goat. When you have that special hunger turn to Tender Bit's 'O Goat for a culinary experience you'll never forget. Forget all your troubles and stop on in to Azz's Oasis, conveniently located on the Road to Manhood just three days walk from the Trees. Stop on by, why doncha?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbgv8PkO9eo

Sogol
Apr 11, 2013

Galileo's Finger

Hey all you desert rats out there. Life in wilderness got you down? We got the cure and that's for sure. Come on in to Azz's Oasis and sit a SPELL. Our deals have wheels. Your listening to Azz's Oasis Beats, Fine Emporium of Madness and Mayhem 24/10. Azz's Oasis. You know you want to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKaQzQAlNn4

Sogol fucked around with this message at Oct 3, 2013 around 02:12

Sogol
Apr 11, 2013

Galileo's Finger

Hey all you hip Manimals. Your listening to Azz's Oasis Beats here at Azz's Oasis. Worried about that silly ol' Manhood Rite. Put your mind at ease. We got ya covered at the Oasis. Stop on by an' grab our famous Bag 'O Survival to soothe your cares away. Azz's Oasis. You know you want to. And remember at Azz's Oasis- You want it? It's Mine! Sit back. Relax. Give those dogs a rest. Or better yet, just let us take them off your hands.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm4BrZjY_Sg

Sogol
Apr 11, 2013

Galileo's Finger

FoxTerrier posted:

Goddammit Sogol, now I'm forever going to picture Azzazal as that dude form the Starland Vocal Band.



Only 13 tall and winged. Actually I think the Starland dude is way creepier than Azz on even his worst day.

Tomn
Aug 23, 2007

And the angel said unto him
"Stop hitting yourself. Stop hitting yourself."
But lo he could not. For the angel was hitting him with his own hands


If voting is still open, then...

1. B It could come in handy, and we can figure out whether or not to drink it later when we need it.

2. D No reason why we can't do business, though it might be best to be secure about where he is. Tell him that Ishmael wanders pretty frequently (which is true anyways).

3. E, but with the option of going for just the water if the haggling goes badly. The whole point of dealing with this guy is that we're not sure whether our doggy can survive to the water, after all.

4. 7, he's a good dog, but he's a dog, people. We're not going to go freakin' catatonic if Snarls dies unless he dies in a particularly messy way.

Diogines
Dec 22, 2007


Azzazel leans over the table and says to you in an excited tone. "Come on now! Tell me everything! Does he still make those ridiculous citrus drinks? Who is he wooing? Where is he about now a days?"





"My price... is that you leave me be when we part" you say.

"Is that all Creature? Why! Of course! Now dish, I want to know every detail of what he is up to!"


You sit at the table beside the oasis and spend an hour regaling him with stories of Ishamal telling stories in taverns, what little bits you know about his exploits, Ishamalish wisdom and share a number of the dirtiest jokes you heard him tell. Azzazel laughs frequently and openly. During this time, Snarls drinks a fair bit of water from the oasis and plays with one of the monkeys. Snarls seems to have relaxed, though he was clearly afraid when Azzazzel first appeared.

When you decide you've let enough time pass, you tell a final dirty joke from Ishamal, Azzazel laughs and then wipes a tear from his eye.

"Aaaah... ha" he says" as Azzazel wipes a final tear from his eye. "It is so good, truly good to hear that all is well with him, you've given me a gift creature and one I promise I shall not forget. Are you certain you don't wish any help? Skip this boring test, come back to my place! It'll be a blast and we'll send you off with something to make that oafish bore you came with proud of you!"


The oasis remains cool and inviting.





Azzazel seems friendly, over the last hour he has called you Creature instead of Manimal and seemed genuinely pleased to hear all you had to say of Ishamal, he spoke no more of taking joy from your suffering, he did not ask for Snarls once and was on the whole, rather pleasant. He spoke little and mostly, let you tell him all about Ishamal, though he did ask questions at time.

It is about two hours past noon. At this point in time your worldly possessions consist of the following:

A. Your garment, made of cloth, which covers your upper and lower body
B. A leather belt on your hip
C. Your sandals
D. Snarls Barkley

The path ahead of you is dry and desolate. Snarls indicated that the closest water is in a forest which is 2 or 3 days off. You have not eaten or drank anything in two hours and are used to a good 6 or 7 meals a day. You have lived a life of relative privilege and not had to worry about food pretty much every, food has been readily available to you in Zepath and was always available in Athar. Snarls has had some water, but there are no other apparent sources of shelter, food, protection, water, food or warmth to be had for 2 or 3 days at the least and it could take time to find any of those things if you make it to the trees.


1. In response to Azzazel's offer, you...
A. Politely decline. You want to do this on your own.
B. Politely decline. You do not trust him and think this is a trick.
C. Politely decline. Some mixture of A and B.
D. You accept. You have decided to trust him more.
E. You accept. You fear for your well being in light of the hardship ahead without his aid.
F. You accept. You fear for Snarls well being.
G. You accept. You fear for both Snarls and your well being.
H. You accept. You have decided that accepting his help is within the spirit of the rules of your trial. All the information you have as to your trial is the information contained within the thread.
I. You accept. You don't care if accepting his help is within the rules or spirit of the rules of your trial, but you don't think you will be caught.
J. Accept or decline, with a different motivation. Fill in.


2. After having spent more time with him, you decided to accept Azzazel's offer to help you. You ask him for...(Only if you picked to accept help in #1 above) (Pick as many as you wish)
K. Enough water for you for three days, so you can reach the small forest Snarl indicated has water in it.
L. Enough water for Snarls for three days.
M. Food for you for three days.
N. Food for snarls for three days.
O. All of the above.
P. Enough water for you for a month.
Q. Enough water for Snarls for a month.
R. Food for you for a month.
S. Food for Snarls for a month.
T. All of the above.
U. ...and a flint and iron to start fires.
V. ...and a weapon.
W. ...and something I can use as an awesome offering to El when this is done.
X. ...AND I want to go to Azzazel's place and party for a month!
Y. A clear, no nonsense answer to a specific question, fill in.
Z. Something else. Fill in.


3. Optional. If you voted to not take his help, do you have a plan to survive the next 2 or 3 days, or for Snarls to survive? If so, please share it.

dyzzy
Dec 22, 2009

argh


1. A
2. Z
Enough water for us and Snarls to reach the forest, along with information needed and/or a means to hang out with Azz in the future

Dunno bout you guys but the whole wilderness survival thing does sound cool. Why cheapen the fun? We'll be better off in the long run, and so long as we can meet Azz again we can a) ask Ishamal about him, and b) if Ishamal doesn't tell us that Azz is a threat we can strike a bargain later on, hopefully.

Raserys
Aug 22, 2011

IT'S YA BOY

1. D/F

2. Z - Enough food and water for Snarls for 3 days, we may have forsworn help, but Snarls made no such promises.

RandomPauI
Nov 24, 2006



Grimey Drawer


1: F

Raserys posted:

2. Z - Enough food and water for Snarls for 3 days, we may have forsworn help, but Snarls made no such promises.

3: "I trust we'll meet again someday. In the meantime I've made sure Snarls was provided for: El will provide for me."

Sogol
Apr 11, 2013

Galileo's Finger

1-D; 2-Z accept in the following way:

Azzazel, sharing these stories has lightened and unburdened my heart and truly I thank you for that and for your invitation. Ishamal has shown me nothing but kindness and wisdom that I have not earned nor deserve for no apparent reason.

You have been around for countless of these trials. I would ask your counsel, beyond your kind offer to return home with you, an invitation I would love to accept under other circumstances. What counsel would you offer for this and to a young fool, as Ishamal has told us we are are on more than one occasion? We must at least make it to those trees (point). How would you counsel us in this and in life?

Also, is there any message or greeting you would have us bring to Ishamal on your behalf?

3-? my plan for getting to the trees depends on his response to some extent.

Sogol fucked around with this message at Oct 4, 2013 around 00:37

paragon1
Nov 22, 2010

FULL COMMUNISM NOW


Grimey Drawer

C and L

A Terrible Person
Jan 8, 2012

The Dance of Friendship


1J: Politely decline because we want to do this on our own. However, request that Snarls be kept safe in the Oasis until we return with the promise that we will talk more later.
3: Walk to the stand of trees (and water) as fast as the sandals allow us, foregoing sleep as much as possible. Enkidel will be starving by the time he gets there, but he's dealt with far far FAR stronger hunger pangs in the past.


Does anyone else get the feeling that Ishamal is Enkidu? The sheer joy which Azzazel took in hearing that he was doing well (after admitting to loving suffering) could suggest that Ishamal's extreme age is more a curse than a blessing. Enkidu attempted to climb Mount Har and demanded to know why men must die. Perhaps he's much older than anyone expects, having been denied death by Ganal. Enkidu loved all living things, so watching them all suffer, grow old, and die must be torture for him. No wonder Azzazel loves hearing about his continued well-being.

...or maybe Azzazel is just a big softie at heart?

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Kira Akashiya
Feb 2, 2013


1. B
2. O

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