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Sogol posted:One is that we are all independent voters and gently caress what any one else thinks. In most cases that structure leads to a sort of random outcome on votes and therefore actions, since no one will ever persuade anyone else of anything. Slaan is an exception because he is more or less in this structure, but he is waiting. Over time others have persuaded themselves to join him without him really having tried to persuade anyone. My HUNGER is eternal. Luckily, my patience is also. We all know Enkidel will go HUNGER demon  Travic I also hate Ishamal. HOLY gently caress do I hate that bastard. But nobody has a problem with me or others on Team gently caress Ish. Why? We keep it to making GBS threads on Ishamal. You tend to let your emotions bleed over onto Diog though; that's what people take exception to. Hate the character in the game, not the GM.
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Mar 20, 2018 18:34
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TacoNight posted:It will take Snarls too long with our alphabet. We need to develop a system of writing with symbols for the most commonly used words and ideas, and have Snarls point to those. Build a pair of 8 directional dials for him to push around, that's 64 possible combinations of positions. That can correspond to our entire alphabet, all our numbers and plenty left over for the most commonly used words and phrases.
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Mar 20, 2018 18:39
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Diogines posted:Now that you have an alphabet, why not just write it someplace and directly guide Snarls to each letter? It would be too slow for battle but if you have time, it could work? So... can we do that? Can we make the Snarls Messaging System? Its not really an invention so much as combining two things we already do (long distance snarls based communication and our alphabet) for greater effect.
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Mar 20, 2018 19:44
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Swedish Thaumocracy posted:So... can we do that? Can we make the Snarls Messaging System? Its not really an invention so much as combining two things we already do (long distance snarls based communication and our alphabet) for greater effect. This, combined with pre-set individual messages for urgent predictable things like "get to me NOW" or "I'm not being mind-controlled, please fetch Ishamal to confirm" or "alert Tudiya, everybody panic"
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Mar 20, 2018 19:49
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jazzyhattrick posted:Build a pair of 8 directional dials for him to push around, that's 64 possible combinations of positions. That can correspond to our entire alphabet, all our numbers and plenty left over for the most commonly used words and phrases. Morse code. Develop Morse code. The joke should go Uriah: What's it boy, what does the boss want? *doggy taps* F-I-S-H? Asherah is coming? Summon the Balls! *more taps* D-I-N-N-E-R. ...gently caress you Enkidel...
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Mar 20, 2018 19:52
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Not to fire up the Ish wagon again, but what I want to know is Why we cannot see behind the curtain. I have trouble buying the whole "Well if we tell you something you'll assume it's the word of God and go off crazier than you are now." Which is really not the case one bit because Enkidel pretty much does what he wants and even if they do say it's the world of God we wouldn't believe them. Maybe the truth is so horrible that if we hear it we will go mad and ruin whatever illusion the Church of El has made up or reveal their scheme and break the faith which will have disastrous consequences. I don't think this would be the case either as Enkidel has taken lovely news extrodinarly well. Hell, we just shrugged off Amok telling us that we were doomed. We know that worship and the Melcahim power are tied together and that they are not infallible. The Doom won at Tannach and only through some extreme bullshit were we able to stop it and also survive. It's like Enkidel is a kid with end stage cancer and the parents are still insisting that everything is fine and he's not dying. Enkidel knows he is dying and has a bunch of fears he desperately wants to express and discuss but all he gets is "oh don't worry about it sweetling". God I want to just scream at Ish sipping his juice and slap the cup out of his hand. Yes we are a child but we are a child that has seen some pretty hosed up poo poo and have a reasonable suspicion that we could cause some real hosed up poo poo to happen and no one is being straight with us. "Using your well is so inefficient it's a tragedy." OKAY WELL THEN EXPLAIN IT TO ME IN DEPTH SO THAT I HAVE FULL KNOWLEDGE AND ACT WISELY "You aren't a mortal man but you choose to life as one" OKAY IM DOING THAT BUY STRANGE poo poo IS HAPPENING THAT EFFECTS MY LIFE THAT I AM CAUSING PLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT I AM SO I CAN PLAN ACCORDINGLY "Don't worry about it Enkidel, this is your home." YES BUT MY VERY PRESENCE IS GETTING WHOLE CITIES WIPED OUT PLEASE RESPOND HOLY gently caress. I think they're afraid that Enkidel is so independent he might reveal the truth to the people and break the whole Blooded Ponzi Scheme that keeps the demon hordes at bay. Here ask Ishamal this. What fate do you and those higher fear so much to keep me wrapped in agonizing ignorance? What is gained from telling a blind man in a pottery shop to tread carefully but then removing his guide? Horrors come and triumph yet I am told to be not afraid. If he takes a sip then I want to smack the cup from his hands and ask him how the luxury of knowledge tastes.
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Mar 20, 2018 19:53
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I think it's that even though our presence may be resulting in cities being wiped out, we chose to live as a man and since the arrow time incident we haven't broken that agreement. Just because Fare and Asherah know we aren't a man and are buidling plans accordingly doesn't mean we don't get to live as a man, and living as a man means not being privy to the why's of divine beings. It's just a sucky situation specifically because we know that *Enkidel* specifically is drawing this heat because he's not a man. We want to help, but because we choose to be a man we can't help on the scale we want to.
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Mar 20, 2018 20:07
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Arkanomen posted:Not to fire up the Ish wagon again, but what I want to know is Why we cannot see behind the curtain. I have trouble buying the whole "Well if we tell you something you'll assume it's the word of God and go off crazier than you are now." Which is really not the case one bit because Enkidel pretty much does what he wants and even if they do say it's the world of God we wouldn't believe them. It's already been explained by Ish that just having knowledge of some things is intrinsically dangerous to us. Just being aware of certain aspects of our existence will force us to do some things involuntarily.
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Mar 20, 2018 20:21
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Everyone, please, kindly and calmly explain to Travic for the 20th time why his poo poo-slinging babytantrums about fiction and direct insults to our GM are unacceptable. You're a goddamn fool.
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Mar 20, 2018 20:31
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Arkanomen posted:Not to fire up the Ish wagon again, but what I want to know is Why we cannot see behind the curtain. I have trouble buying the whole "Well if we tell you something you'll assume it's the word of God and go off crazier than you are now." Which is really not the case one bit because Enkidel pretty much does what he wants and even if they do say it's the world of God we wouldn't believe them. I think there are a lot of reasons why they insist on being so tight-lipped. For starters, we have a decades/nearly a century long track record of asking Ishamal to validate our decisions. Go back through pretty much any Question Time, and there will be a half dozen - "Did I do the right thing?" - "What would you have done in my position?" - "What should I do next time?" We may not always listen to him, but, like it or not, his opinion DOES shape a lot of Enkidel's decisions and thoughts. Hell, even his non-answers, people overanalyze and twist and try to derive secret meaning from. If Ishamal took a bite out of a watermelon right now and complained about the seeds, at least one person would unironically push to research growing seedless watermelons in the next time skip. As for a second reason, I think that they honestly can't. Based on previous interactions and experiences, there seems to be a very tightly defined list of ways they (Ishamal and the Melachim) are allowed to directly interfere in the world without compromising themselves or opening Ur up to even worse threats. I mean, look at all of the Supernatural NDA clauses that Enkidel is bound to, and he isn't even a full century old. Ishamal is like 9 times our age at least. Now, while I have absolutely zero doubt in my mind that there is information he CHOOSES to withhold - either because he thinks he's protecting us or doesn't think we need to know - I also believe there is exponentially more that he would love to tell us, if he weren't under countless Divine Gag Orders.
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Mar 20, 2018 20:31
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Slaan posted:My HUNGER is eternal. Luckily, my patience is also. We all know Enkidel will go HUNGER demon the wise useless enigmatic master who knows everything and withholds crucial information because otherwise the plot wouldn't happen is a weak gimmick even in normal fiction, let alone in an interactive game where it's apparently appealing to peoples' worst compulsive habits to derail every actually productive or interesting thing for ~question tiiiiiime~ at every opportunity; I do think half the drat thread being about grilling Ishamal and oh isn't that funny he's not answering again instead of getting on with anything more substantial (or just taking a break for a week if he needs it) is kind of a failing on Diog's part, but I'm not, like, personally affronted by his dimestore Obi-Wan Kenobi, I just check out of the thread for a few days whenever he turns up safe in the knowledge I won't be missing anything, which policy might help some folks ITT A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 20:53 on Mar 20, 2018 |
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Mar 20, 2018 20:38
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A bunch of weirdos posted:>eat literal poo poo >You don't have a literal poo poo here A bunch of weirdos posted:>pickup literal poo poo >I don't recognize that command A bunch of weirdos posted:>get literal poo poo >You don't see a literal poo poo here. A bunch of weirdos posted:>take literal poo poo >You cannot do that.
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Mar 20, 2018 20:47
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I wouldn't be surprised is a lot of the NDA is spite driven by Smattas & Co. 'Oh you want to be like that? Fine. You can't know about souls and why poo poo feels so icky-weird-bad to you. Suck on that, Neph.'
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Mar 20, 2018 20:47
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Arkanomen posted:"You aren't a mortal man but you choose to life as one" OKAY IM DOING THAT BUY STRANGE poo poo IS HAPPENING THAT EFFECTS MY LIFE THAT I AM CAUSING PLEASE EXPLAIN WHAT I AM SO I CAN PLAN ACCORDINGLY We don't know that our presence is causing the demon invasion. Amok said that the chains of Asherah were nearly loose. That sounds like an aeons-long process, not something that suddenly happened in our lifetime. For that matter, maybe we were born/created specifically to be able to fight the coming demon invasion. Our presence could be preventing cities being wiped out, rather than vice versa. And we have saved a lot of people (and/or their souls).
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Mar 20, 2018 20:47
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It's because if we knew about certain abilities we would start doing them unconsciously, even as we slept. Ishamal has said as much and it fits what we have had happen to us. Similarly, even knowing the names of certain beings apparently draws their attention. I suspect that in the long term we will actually be taught those abilities we would do unknowingly but only once we have sufficient control as to be able to notice and stop ourselves from doing it.
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Mar 20, 2018 20:49
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I thought of another one: *rolls ball onto image of Snarls-snacks* "Enkidel wants us to give you a treat?" *nods doggy head* "For the third time today." *Nods again* "Ok. That's it. I'm going to go ask him." *frantically rolls ball on to the 'I need to be alone' picture* "God damnit Snarls. ENKIDEL! I NEED TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THIS SYSTEM!"
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Mar 20, 2018 20:50
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SerSpook posted:It's because if we knew about certain abilities we would start doing them unconsciously, even as we slept. Ishamal has said as much and it fits what we have had happen to us. Similarly, even knowing the names of certain beings apparently draws their attention. For example: seeing the entirety of someone's life on accident while we slept and having a part of them imprinted on our being to the point where we can't remember who we are at first.
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Mar 20, 2018 20:51
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the_steve posted:Now, while I have absolutely zero doubt in my mind that there is information he CHOOSES to withhold - either because he thinks he's protecting us or doesn't think we need to know - I also believe there is exponentially more that he would love to tell us, if he weren't under countless Divine Gag Orders. There's also very clearly information that he's withholding because he doesn't want to be responsible for us doing dumb poo poo with catastrophic consequences. He's said so, both implicitly and occasionally explicitly, on quite a few occasions. There have also been hints that this is the policy of the melachim. We choose to live as a human, that means we get freedom of choice, including the freedom to cause great suffering. They do not aid us (or are forbidden from aiding us), because there's a chance that their aid may influence our decisions towards us causing calamity.
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Mar 20, 2018 20:52
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Three domains of Ish theory: 1- Ish is an rear end in a top hat. Lots of evidence for this from certain perspectives. 2- Ish's observable behavior is conditioned by some dynamic we cannot see, which he cannot reveal, even though we might think he should. 3- Ish's observable behavior is conditioned by a game dynamic having to do with game theory and the informational dynamic of this particular game. Any one, any combination or all three could be true. We don’t know.
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Mar 20, 2018 20:52
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Hellsau posted:>You don't have a literal poo poo here Make fun of us all you want, we'll see who's laughing when we find a renewable, reliable way to increase our [???] on demand
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Mar 20, 2018 20:53
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TK-42-1 posted:I thought of another one: Of course, we would cover for Snarls in this situation.
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Mar 20, 2018 20:54
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Sogol posted:Three domains of Ish theory: 4- Ish's observable behavior is conditioned by bad fantasy novels in which Dumbledore knows what's up all along, because he's very smart you see, but he can never under any circumstances speak clearly to the protagonists, because it's supposed to be a big surprise when it turns out Tudiya was the real Asherah all along.
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Mar 20, 2018 20:57
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Some hardcore projection going on ITT. Lol at the idea that demons wouldn't demon without Enkidel being around. Has anyone considered that Enkidel isn't the center of the universe, and that in fact At the very least has anyone considered that attributing the rise of attacks to our presence is potentially ad hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy at its finest? Especially in light of the attacks occurring Ur wide, and not just near Zepath?
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Mar 20, 2018 21:00
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:4- Ish's observable behavior is conditioned by bad fantasy novels in which Dumbledore knows what's up all along, because he's very smart you see, but he can never under any circumstances speak clearly to the protagonists, because it's supposed to be a big surprise when it turns out Tudiya was the real Asherah all along. That is a version of #3 I think, in which if information is transparently available there would neither game nor the tension required for emergent narrative.
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Mar 20, 2018 21:02
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Fair enoughparagon1 posted:Some hardcore projection going on ITT. That's a semper ubi sub ubi fallacy my dude, when after millennia of stable equilibrium two extremely unusual events disrupt the status quo at once it's pretty reasonable to assume some kind of singular common root cause, and the information we do have points reasonably to the conclusion Enkidel was not caused by the demon apocalypse.
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Mar 20, 2018 21:02
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:4- Ish's observable behavior is conditioned by bad fantasy novels in which Dumbledore knows what's up all along, because he's very smart you see, but he can never under any circumstances speak clearly to the protagonists, because it's supposed to be a big surprise when it turns out Tudiya was the real Asherah all along. 5 Ish's behavior isn't assholish at all and the incessant complaining about him is the whining of spoiled children.
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Mar 20, 2018 21:05
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ThatBasqueGuy posted:Make fun of us all you want, we'll see who's laughing when we find a renewable, reliable way to increase our [???] on demand We already know the one and probably only way to do that. Hunger
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Mar 20, 2018 21:05
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:the wise useless enigmatic master who knows everything and withholds crucial information because otherwise the plot wouldn't happen is a weak gimmick even in normal fiction, let alone in an interactive game where it's apparently appealing to peoples' worst compulsive habits to derail every actually productive or interesting thing for ~question tiiiiiime~ at every opportunity; I do think half the drat thread being about grilling Ishamal and oh isn't that funny he's not answering again instead of getting on with anything more substantial (or just taking a break for a week if he needs it) is kind of a failing on Diog's part, but I'm not, like, personally affronted by his dimestore Obi-Wan Kenobi, I just check out of the thread for a few days whenever he turns up safe in the knowledge I won't be missing anything, which policy might help some folks ITT Qui-Gon Jinn was an all around better Jedi and things wouldn't have gone to poo poo if he survived.
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Mar 20, 2018 21:07
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:the wise useless enigmatic master who withholds crucial information because otherwise the plot wouldn't happen is a lazy gimmick even in normal fiction, let alone in a game where it's apparently appealing to peoples' worst compulsive habits to derail every actually productive or interesting thing for ~question tiiiiiime~ at every opportunity; I do think half the drat thread being about grilling Ishamal and oh isn't that funny he's not answering again instead of getting on with going out and finding interesting stuff and hearing from better characters is kind of a failing on Diog's part, but I'm not, like, personally affronted by his dimestore Obi-Wan Kenobi or constantly seething with low-level rage that poo poo isn't the way I would write it, which helps I dislike Ishy for reasons everyone has already gone through, but I will state he is a better mentor than Obi. Obi-Wan mostly just babbled about the force and got a taser bot to blast luke while he waved a deadly weapon around, blind folded, and when he realized what a whiny bitch Luke was Obi-Wan committed suicide-by-vader Ouroborus fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Mar 20, 2018 |
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Mar 20, 2018 21:07
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Diogines posted:Qui-Gon Jinn was an all around better Jedi and things wouldn't have gone to poo poo if he survived. Plus, we've all seen Taken. We all know what happens when Palpatine abducts Anakin when Liam Neeson is on the case. Particular set of Jedi skills cuts the dark side in pieces, fool.
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Mar 20, 2018 21:09
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paragon1 posted:Some hardcore projection going on ITT. Yes. Enkidel is either a divine mistake or part of someone’s plan. If a plan and things are going at all according to plan, then his location in time is part of that plan. We can be pretty sure that if such a plan exists it did not originate from the House of Baitel or PtB associated with Melachim and Mt. Har. That leaves it as either a plan from beings we call Demons, a rebel faction or perhaps some El figure acting as a kind of rebel faction. My own preference is a rebel faction (for which we have some evidence) aligned somehow with a figure assumed to be El. This puts the PtB associated with Har and Melachim somehow in opposition with the figure of El while still receiving the benefits of sacrifices to El. #FreeDad#Allthechainsarebreaking
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Mar 20, 2018 21:10
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paragon1 posted:5 Ish's behavior isn't assholish at all and the incessant complaining about him is the whining of spoiled children. Contained in theory #2.
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Mar 20, 2018 21:10
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Actually if we look at the available evidence, it becomes totally possible and maybe even plausible that Enkidel was caused by the demon apocalypse, in a fashion. Jalitha, for instance, claims she is from Baitel. Her way of cooking is not like the Baitel we know at all. We could not find her father when we were in Baitel. Nobody had heard of her. She claims she fell into the river and washed up near loving Athar, from Baitel to Athar, and didn't die. She also says she was already pregnant with us at the time/had just given birth to us. We know that the Melachim do some weird rear end poo poo and try very, very hard to not look as if they are interfering in things, and try very hard not to break any rules. Is it possible that Jalitha was literally pulled from her time via "falling" into a river (as she recalls it) and washed up near Athar specifically so a Nephilim would enter the world without actually breaking the rules about laying with a woman again? And then sent to Athar so Enkidel's story has a bit more oomph to it, and it mirrors Labaras' more closely? Then send ALL of Zepath's Mighty Men, it's King, and Ishamal to get the kid when he's 11 so he can get a proper religious education and also knows the terrible poo poo in the world? Enkidel has a very unique perspective and bizarre origin story, it isn't unreasonable to believe he was specifically arranged to help battle the demons at the southern border of Ur.
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Mar 20, 2018 21:11
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Or he was invented to create Snarls Barkley, who could supply Ur with a near limitless supply of naps.
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Mar 20, 2018 21:17
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Enkidel has a unique relationship to free will, the first Law of the mortal realm. I believe this is integral to whoever or whatever’s plan.
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Mar 20, 2018 21:18
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It's worth noting that Ishamal's behavior changed. He used to be pissed at Enkidel whenever he experimented. Since at least the eagle arrow, he doesn't seem to mind that at all, as long as he doesn't tell him. He straight out ran away before we could show him the magical arrow we made. Right now we tried to tell him about the pillar of fire and he was acting like a lawyer trying to stop his client from admitting to a crime.
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Mar 20, 2018 21:21
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He also isn't hiding it from the Trio, they were pretty clearly watching the battle and our actions there. Probably the other Melachim, who were distracted due to the whole Jubilee demon invasion thing. e: or maybe not even that, the presence on Mt. Har knows everything about us, etc, we intuited in the past (did this get retconned?), maybe he is worried about demon's getting a better grasp of our capabilities.
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Mar 20, 2018 21:24
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paragon1 posted:Some hardcore projection going on ITT. I don't think we exist for any sort of Big drat Destiny purpose. But, we are a walking loophole, so by our very nature, certain forces can't leave us alone, because we can be used to do so many things they otherwise would not be able to do. We're basically the $20 you find in your pocket while doing laundry that lets you get takeout instead of having to cook one night.
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Mar 20, 2018 21:27
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:Fair enough No, it only seems reasonable, and quoting a joke at me doesn't change that. Enkidel being present and demons knowing what he is would explain the local attacks, sure. Except not really. If the invasions are to gank Enkidel before he gets too big, then why the attacks on Sair or from the desert? Why send the Doom to Tanaach instead of Kavodel, where you can reasonably assume Enkidel will be? You can explain some of this away as trying to isolate Zepath, but Zepath's strengths and defenses don't rely on outsiders for anything. They never have. Meanwhile it is super easy to read a guiding hand into Enkidel being removed from Athar and ending up in Zepath just in time to fight invasions of Sea People. Hell, the existence of some prior equilibrium is itself an assumption! I certainly wouldn't call the steady expansion of cities all the way to Zepath (and Sair) to be a state of equilibrium.
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Mar 20, 2018 21:27
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Basically I'm arguing that Uraiha is totes right and we are on a literal mission from actual God.
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Mar 20, 2018 21:31
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