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I think they are hoping for more of a team sport. Are there any team archery events?
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Aug 9, 2016 17:36
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I just finally caught up after a week of reading and had a question. I read we invented pulley systems and mechanical advantage a while back - did anyone ever invent crossbows, ballistae, or compound bows? Blooded bronze should make such things possible, if heavy. Also, did we ever make any slingapults like we saw earlier? The granaries and warning towers are one good way to prepare for the coming war, but we should also be building - at the very least - the war machines we've seen others use. Developing iron is the first priority, but we've seen other technologies as well.
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Aug 9, 2016 17:49
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Aug 12, 2016 02:19
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B E My third vote would be contingent on the answer to this question, but don't bother waiting because it seems like it will be I in a landslide: Should I have crushed the Melachim worship of the heretics more thoroughly, by claiming the divine intervention through sacrifice was a "special revelation from El," or should I have insisted that such things were not a "special revelation from El" and by doing so, essentially encouraged Melachim worship? If you don't answer, I will assume the latter, as it is the logical consequence of what you have stated before.
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Aug 12, 2016 04:27
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My question was skipped, so I'll ask it again: Should I have crushed the Melachim worship of the heretics more thoroughly, by claiming the divine intervention through sacrifice was a "special revelation from El," or should I have insisted that such things were not a "special revelation from El" and by doing so, essentially encouraged Melachim worship? If you don't answer, I will assume the latter, as it is the logical consequence of what you have stated before.
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Aug 12, 2016 04:48
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Waci posted:The Baitel Bureaucracy Bosses would kill us before 7bird did. You think Ur will survive more than a couple of years at best without the protection of Baitel? The melachim are right to fear and distrust us, we've clearly demonstrated that a large part of our personality is that of a murderous madman. If you want answers and don't care about what happens to the people, option A is way more efficient than any 7bird or hunger demon terrorist plan anyway. If you want power that we are actually in control of, well, the only way we know of that can deepen our well is Ishamal, so we'd better not piss him off too much. If your goal is to FEED, your best bet would be to convince the majority of posters that that would actually be a better or more interesting game. I'd suggest a social justice angle for that. Ur is very conservative aside from the heretics. The only realistic way we could get an end to slavery or equality for women in the next several thousand years is to enforce it as part of our demon god cult. Your best bet is to consistently make the case that El worship is inherently wrong because of this, and that feeding on the privileged oppressors is actually justice that will make the world a better place, or something.
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Aug 12, 2016 16:23
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Azuth0667 posted:Look at Tanaach where was the Baitel brigade when that happened? They weren't anywhere and other than a pitiful sorry from Jael they've done nothing about it. Baitel might protect the doughnut but, it does nothing for the rest of Ur. Its time for Zepa's lands to secede There's a good argument to be made for that. However, Tudiya is so much stronger than us that the only way to accomplish that would be to FEED on Ishamal and him, and hope to quickly gain the strength to be able to FEED on the watchers as well. This is all moot, though, because I believe that opening the door before the last retcon merely turned us into a hunger demon, because after the first retcon Diog changed the rules such that we could no longer control a hunger demon. I'm pretty sure feeding would just be another immediate game over, now. That's why it only makes sense to be an El Fundamentalist and play sim city 3000bc for a while, at least until everything we care about is dead, as other posters have noted.
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Aug 12, 2016 16:49
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Lead out in cuffs posted:Hey I know! Why don't we give Paebal the choice before the memory wipe? Also we tell him it's the will of the Melachim, but now that he knows, the choice is mind wipe or banishment. Ishamal already said that wasn't an option, because the mind wipe would have to be way worse if we asked him and he consented. Right now he only has suspicions of a mighty jump, but that would be confirmation.
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Aug 12, 2016 17:05
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I wish the capybaras were really a dwarf fortress hack like he joked about a while ago. It sounds like it would be a lot of fun to mess with.
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Aug 12, 2016 17:16
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If we choose not to mind wipe Paebel, what steps do you suggest we take instead? How can we more effectively prevent any misguided non-El worship, without doing anything that is clearly wrong?
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Aug 12, 2016 17:36
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What should we do to prepare for the army of 10,000 40-foot tall giants that will likely be here in the next several years, after they interrogate any human survivors that went back to the destroyed village and come here seeking vengeance? Their civilization seems to rival the size of Ur, or perhaps be even larger, so 10000 may even be a low estimate.
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Aug 12, 2016 17:44
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May we explain to Paebel and the rest of the heretics how limited the Melachim really are? What exactly constitutes a "special revelation?"
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Aug 12, 2016 17:53
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Dr Subterfuge posted:The last time we tried to sit down with him and tell him the Melachim don't like what he was doing, the only thing he took away from it was that we talk to the Melachim. Diog warned us multiple times it was probably a bad idea to have the conversation, but the thread couldn't image how he could take it the wrong way. Trying to explain anything to him is counterproductive. I see. Perhaps, rather than explaining things to him, questioning him could produce better results. The reason our trip is being sworn to secrecy is that much of what we would like to tell him can be figured out from clues during the trip, and we were told we could speak of the trip to each other. e: It seems like the mind wipe is going to happen, and afterwards questioning him should be safer. Rhetorical questions, like "Why are we protected from powerful demons while in Ur, while we seem less protected the further we go away?" and "Why did we have to go outside of the village to sacrifice to El, or risk dire consequences?" He won't know the answers, but enough good questions should be able to destroy anyone's faith, as long as they are willing to listen. In any event, this cowardly refusal to engage with the heretics at all, instead trying to conceal all information in order to leave them a false, ignorant "free will," makes us exactly the same as the Melachim. Question Time fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Aug 12, 2016 |
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Aug 12, 2016 18:14
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Sogol posted:Ninja Powers I agree completely. We have a big advantage in this regard - the Laurels - and we should make recharging and studying them a priority. More questions for Ishamel: What is the relationship between the water in the well and souls? Do demons increase their water or well by eating souls? Can we fight them by liberating souls from within them? Can you help me recharge(or re-leaf) and study the Laurels? Will you eventually teach me to use "ball trance" or "arrow time" in a safer way, as long as I don't go below a certain "reserve" level of water in my well? Is experimenting with well abilities verboten only because I might waste too much water in my well, or also for some other reason? ((i don't remember if this actually happened outside of the retcon, ignore if it didn't)) How are my balls using the water in my well on their own? Should I prevent them from doing that? Is it safer than using the water on my own? Why does the water in my well increase more quickly when I do impressive things in the sight of my balls? Is this dangerous Does the 'water' contained within the boons El granted me after sacrifice equal to the 'water' in the sacrifice itself? Is it El himself verbally responding to the sacrifices in the priestly language? Could anyone get a similar divine response with a sacrifice containing enough 'water', or is someone of high bloodedness or other such lineage required? May I experiment with sacrifices to El, for example by having Paebel sacrifice something of very high 'water' on his own?
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Aug 12, 2016 18:59
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We need to get Ahaz and Lefkandi to work together on developing as much of the technology we've brought back as we can, in order to build as many war machines and other force multipliers as well can before the calamity comes. Even if we get really lucky and 10000 giants don't march up in a couple of years, Tudiya seems convinced there will be another large invasion at the next jubilee. 30 years is just about enough time to develop a few useful basic technologies like iron/steel/bnaimokt weapons, slingapults, and crossbows, if we really push it. I do remember reading - maybe in the Judah thread- that bronze here is able to start fires with a flint, which it does not in real life. If the laws of physics and metallurgy are different, we'll need more in-game sources of knowledge in order to really push technology, which is probably the point of changing those laws. However, the first step is to build those better bellows forges, and use the new hotter temperatures to re-examine all of the studies we did on ore and ore mixtures before, including the semi-supernatural knowledge we got about the giant metal compositions with "iron plus other things we can't name". Ahaz, as a mining and ore expert, would he helpful for this.
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Aug 12, 2016 21:07
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Also, as an aside, I think it is quite reasonable that Enkidel would be interested in developing technology or science now that he's had all that knowledge pass through his mind, even if he wasn't able to retain any of it. Just the knowledge that all that is possible, that there is a "natural law" that can be examined and exploited, is a GIGANTIC step.
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Aug 12, 2016 21:13
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100 HOGS AGREE posted:We have to figure out charcoal first. It probably won't take too long since we saw all the charred wood in the forge at Gebek, but just having the bellows and the better smelter design isn't enough. The next time we get a semi-apotheosis, we really need to vote for trying to retain some of that knowledge. I cringed every time we chose short-term gain over something that could actually help humanity survive the coming storm, and even though the short term benefits gained seemed urgent there were several times we could have done without them. That reminds me: What is the seemingly infinite knowledge that comes through my head during a large sacrifice? Is it sent by El, or related to his touch in some way?"
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Aug 12, 2016 21:31
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This is a question for Diogines, not ishamal. Pardon if it has been asked before: It seems like the telepathy color and font of divine communication acts as a "signature" for the being communicating. Does the red hebrew we sometimes "hear" at sacrifices always sound like it comes from the same person, or different each time? Did the yellow hebrew we heard in the smythos dream sound different than the red hebrew we heard at sacrifices later? Did these sound different to the yellow english that the Doom of Tanaach used to try to trick us? What did this telepathy or whatever it was feel or sound like in general? When we first sacrificed giant-orbs, there was maroon hebrew text and also blue letters in another language, telling us not to bow before demons. Was this two different beings speaking? Did they seem familiar? For Ishamal: Would eating a 'magic' or "presence-filled" item be as demonic and blasphemous as cannibalism, or on the same spectrum? If not, would it restore wellwater/Elwater? What steps can I take to minimize "enthralling" people, other than concealing the wings and always giving glory to El? Can I sacrifice my wings to El? I believe developing my humility and self-control is needed for me to avoid falling to darkness if and when I must choose death over betrayal. How can I convince those parts of me that Hunger, that want to turn to "magic", or that seek worship, that such things will lead only to despair, as I have been shown and told again and again and again?
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Aug 12, 2016 22:47
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Diogines posted:This is formally retconned in light of strong Goon response to the contrary. You didn't ask the question, Aaron did not give the response. I don't know about this. I think errant thoughts or even statements that people then feel guilty about or retreat from are a very common part of human psychology and experience, and us saying that and then feeling guilty about it and resolving to give Ahaz more attention is very realistic.
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Aug 12, 2016 22:54
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BoneMonkey posted:It's either that or talk where diog can't read it. Which doesn't seem that fun for him. If you knew that a potential adversary was constantly reading your mind, it is plausible that parts of your subconscious mind would try to conceal some thoughts, perhaps by not bringing them to your conscious attention. It is up to Diog whether such psychological theories are true in Ur, and also how effective such efforts would be.
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Aug 12, 2016 23:08
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Greggster posted:I think so too! How about getting women to crew the hundreds of slingapults and ballistae we should be building? We need a wall, not to keep things out, but to serve as towers for these devices. In this way, the common people can actually contribute to fighting big nasties, instead of just getting pasted and accomplishing nothing. A direct hit from one of these could at least knock or slow a lesser demon down, assisting the Mighty Man doing most of the fighting.
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Aug 19, 2016 18:26
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TheCog posted:We have no idea how to build a ballista and its a closely guarded secret of the academy at batiel. So we'd have to figure out how to build them from scratch or steal the knowledge. Giant Bow + Pulley system(mechanical advantage) that we already designed. We saw them, and we know they are possible - that's the hard part. Let's put some Ahaz or someone on it, at least.
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Aug 19, 2016 18:34
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Zahrkon posted:Ballistas are not bows nor do they use pulleys to store energy, they use torsion springs and are more closely related to mouse traps than they are bows. A bow Stores energy in its limbs instead. Also pulleys don't release pent up energy well unless you use cams which are not a thing we know of yet. Thank you for the explanation. In this case, our initial trials would likely fail, but it's possible that even a giant mighty man powered blooded bronze reinforced bow, mounted on a tower and with commoners passing up bolts, would be more efficient than literally throwing rocks. Ahaz or Lefkandi may also be able to improve on that later. We also should definitely be able to build slingapults - we should have complete samples captured from at least one of the wars, right? Building those on top of towers should provide a range advantage against any that enemies bring.
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Aug 19, 2016 20:45
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D. I don't understand why we took all the credit in the first place, sure it increased our reputation but that wasn't worth being a source of secret shame all these years.
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Aug 20, 2016 15:08
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Planning to beat Barkof is probably premature, but spying on him or trying to track him down is a good idea. Is there a group of people we could send that would be most suited to that? And about telling Tudiya the truth - we can frame it in a way that sounds better. We don't have to give him every detail. "Uriah is the one that convinced me to stay when I thought all hope was lost" is true and does not reflect too badly on either of us.
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Aug 20, 2016 17:24
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Why don't we question Uriah in private about how he learned his special abilities, and compare and contrast them with our own?
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Aug 21, 2016 23:00
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Diogines posted:You have before. Some of his previous responses were roughly: I wonder if we could get Ishamal to try to train him, or at least talk to him. I don't think trying to teach him control techniques we've learned would help much, but it can't hurt much. Maybe meditation would help him control his emotions better, if nothing else. Maybe if we got him to idolize Snarls he could work from his [???] instead of ours.
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Aug 21, 2016 23:21
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1.D - Asakandi 2. Explain to the heretics that they were insufficiently circumspect and now we have to sacrifice their statue to El
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Aug 23, 2016 06:22
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There was a good discussion, in the Judah thread I think, about what that reason was recently. Basically, the game is a "simulationist" roguelike, so multiple deaths should be about as common as in dwarf fortress or any other roguelike, even with an overpowered character. It is the nature of roguelikes that you can either save scum or continually start over with multiple characters until either blind luck or metagame knowledge allows you to win. When we did start over with another character, interest dropped off a cliff.
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Aug 23, 2016 18:46
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Outrail posted:Oh yes! This, except no ultimatum about "I'm sending this out." They would probably react poorly to that.
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Aug 25, 2016 21:27
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I think that selling iron as inferior to blooded bronze is how we can get Tudiya to at least let us mine and use it in relative secrecy. If it was superior, it would be heresy, but because it is inferior to blooded bronze, and everyone Labaras cared about was presumably his blood and thus highly blooded, it makes sense that he wouldn't have bothered telling people about it. Now that blood is thinning, it can still be useful to commoners and also might help them contribute more at the next monster attack.
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Aug 26, 2016 04:26
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I don't think we have the in-character knowledge to make steel anytime soon, but we should still be able to start experimenting with alloys. If copper is weak until you mix it with tin, it follows that iron may be stronger when mixed with something else. However, blooded iron needs to be the highest priority. It will be interesting to compare blooded iron to giant and bnaimokt metal. I hope we have a blooded smith working on making some already. Unfortunately, pure iron is not much stronger than bronze so it really isn't going to help us that much, except logistically, as you don't have to have a copper and and tin mine available. More and cheaper metal will also help our army a great deal. Hopefully Tudiya sees the merit of the logistical and economic arguments for it. I would like to experiment with iron arrows, as blooded bronze arrows have been our best weapon so far.
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Aug 26, 2016 19:24
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We should also consider that Ishamal is much less likely to consider us wise enough for more training and information if we constantly annoy him. The tone of his recent responses sounds pretty drat annoyed to me.
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Aug 27, 2016 19:29
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"Samson, obviously blooded bronze is superior to iron, but only blooded men can make it. Perhaps Labaras only saw fit to tell his highly blooded sons things useful to them in particular. However, iron could be tremendously useful to the unblooded, maybe even allowing them to contribute more at the next demon attack, even if it is useless to me and you. Perhaps it is something we could leave to them, to make their lives better, precisely because it is lesser and better suited to them? Obviously, it would need to be controlled and limited, to keep it from non-zepathan hands, and protect the forests."
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Sep 3, 2016 05:37
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D, and come up with some more persuasive arguments for why iron should be allowed to be used/given to the common people.
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Sep 3, 2016 17:26
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FoxTerrier posted:The thing is, even if we re-double our efforts and take extra steps to minimize the environmental impact around Zepath, the donut sure as hell won't. Starting deforestation in the interior, along with more bloodshed, is a legitimate concern. It's a good argument to make sure iron doesn't get to the donut. However, our oath to not interfere with the donut already takes care of that. Unless we choose to break our oath, we must take steps to prevent them from getting iron. However, we should be able to use iron ourselves to increase the effectiveness of our army and economy. We just have to keep its manufacture a secret to only trusted smiths, like balls and their retainers.
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Sep 3, 2016 17:30
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Why did the doom of Tanaach bother sending all of that undead fodder if it was completely invincible short of a dragon nuke?
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Sep 7, 2016 02:35
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TK-42-1 posted:I think it planned on not revealing itself unless necessary. It held back until we had pretty much beaten the initial onslaught. Then it revealed itself when the watcher got involved. So theoretically, at least against a lesser demon, the fodder fight does matter. Better equipped commoners means fewer dead commoners which means slightly weaker soul eaters. 1. A Samson is right about everything he said, but none of that will matter if humanity is dead or enslaved. 2. H
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Sep 7, 2016 03:45
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We don't need guidance, it is obvious what the real choice is - a whole lot of people are either going to get killed by other people in donut wars if we use iron, or they will get fed to demons, with their souls writhing in agony for all eternity, if we don't.
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Sep 7, 2016 14:16
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What about keeping iron secret by... painting it bronze, calling it "black bronze", and otherwise treating it like it's not a big deal, or telling the people we order to use it about its capabilities? Basically, hide its use as well as its manufacture, as well as we can. This will of course be difficult and limited, but it should at least buy us some more time. It's quite possible that in 30 years one of the other "fronts" of Ur falls, and then the donut will have other problems.
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Sep 7, 2016 20:12
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