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Spyros
Apr 28, 2013

Autumncomet posted:

I assume K isn't a robot though because the bracelets require a heartbeat.

Still, Zero was oddly specific about how the bracelets detect heartbeat, i.e. via electrical impulses. Maybe a robot's circuitry can produce a similar effect. For that matter, if K turns out to be a robotic Santa analogue, Zero could have just set it up so that K has a bracelet that doesn't need a heartbeat to stay on.

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Kgummy
Aug 14, 2009
Well, they kind of went out of the way to explain that it needed an electrical current, which a beating heart provides. Doesn't rule out him being a robot, but it doesn't mean he is one. Though that might just be them trying to explain how the heartbeat sensor could work despite being over the metal armor/suit/whatever. Even simpler, though unlikely, would be that K's doesn't sense heart beat at all. Like how 999 didn't have detonators in most of the bracelets.

Though I'm not sure how the needles would get through the armor, unless holes were made beforehand.

Edit: And beaten while I was typing that out.

tiistai
Nov 1, 2012

Solo Melodica
This reminds me of a thing that bothered me in 999, namely how the hell didn't Snake's bracelet fall off his prosthetic wrist. I mean, they did sense the heartbeat, as well.

I guess it could have just been built differently, especially if Snake was in on the whole deal.

Hamsterlady
Jul 8, 2010

Corpse Party, bitches.

Kgummy posted:

Well, they kind of went out of the way to explain that it needed an electrical current, which a beating heart provides. Doesn't rule out him being a robot, but it doesn't mean he is one. Though that might just be them trying to explain how the heartbeat sensor could work despite being over the metal armor/suit/whatever. Even simpler, though unlikely, would be that K's doesn't sense heart beat at all. Like how 999 didn't have detonators in most of the bracelets.

Though I'm not sure how the needles would get through the armor, unless holes were made beforehand.

Edit: And beaten while I was typing that out.

If you look at the bracelet shots, K's appears to be built into his armor. So if there's a person in there, it's safe to assume the bracelet is making direct contact with his skin.

SusanosWrath
Jan 3, 2012

This Unit Will Self-Destruct Upon Termination of Target

tiistai posted:

This reminds me of a thing that bothered me in 999, namely how the hell didn't Snake's bracelet fall off his prosthetic wrist. I mean, they did sense the heartbeat, as well.

I guess it could have just been built differently, especially if Snake was in on the whole deal.

I think the reason was that it was made in a way that it was tight around his prosthetic wrist, and his prosthetic was made in a way that a heartbeat would echo on the inside of it, as in it was hollow.

Wolpertinger
Feb 16, 2011

Kgummy posted:

I'd assume it was part of his plan, considering K said/theorized as much. At the very least Zero III doesn't doesn't care one way or the other. I guess it might be 'didn't have a bracelet, wasn't part of the game'.

Though Zero III did seem to imply that he already knew the death caused the bracelet to come off, much in the same manner as calling out Phi about knowing the death rule of the AB game. So either the murder victim had a bracelet and Dio took it; Something similar to the captain situation in 999. Or Dio knows more about the Nonary Game than he's letting on.

Don't really have enough to go off at the moment.


The body was found in K's and Clover's booth, not Dio and Quark's, why would you think Dio did it? And how would he have done it? :confused:

Kgummy
Aug 14, 2009
I said Dio might have done it. Or that he knows more about the Nonary game that he's letting on.

I didn't say for sure that he did it. It's much more likely that he has outside knowledge of the Nonary game.

Though rereading the update it seems possible that Zero III was just being kind of a jerk, and meant it as a "Can't you figure it out?" kind of thing. Though Dio being especially loud in asking questions in the AB room might have been him asking things he couldn't outright ask with the others around.

Wolpertinger
Feb 16, 2011

Kgummy posted:

I said Dio might have done it. Or that he knows more about the Nonary game that he's letting on.

I didn't say for sure that he did it. It's much more likely that he has outside knowledge of the Nonary game.

Though rereading the update it seems possible that Zero III was just being kind of a jerk, and meant it as a "Can't you figure it out?" kind of thing. Though Dio being especially loud in asking questions in the AB room might have been him asking things he couldn't outright ask with the others around.

Well, Quark was with him.

maswastaken
Nov 12, 2011

xxlicious posted:

Dio's version of the story doesn't really add up: if he's really telling the truth about Quark being a backstabbing little bastard, it would be in his interests to keep quiet about it and act the villain to make other people trust Quark in order to expedite future betrayals. As it is, telling that story about Quark only serves to create reasonable doubt about his own trustworthiness by making Quark seem like the villain. He still needs other people to ally with him if he wants to gain anything from betrayals, after all.
Dio could simply physically overpower Quark in later voting stages. Even with the assumption that pairings stay the same, there's still two others to join with. Even with the actual results, there's still Luna. His goal isn't to convince Tenmyouji but everyone else.

Besides, if he really wanted Tenmyouji to vote ally again, there's are large periods of time where he and Quark are necessarily separated. It'd be a shame if something happened to Quark during AB voting round three...

suddenly cats
Nov 16, 2006

Cats do not abide by the laws of nature, alright? You don't know shit about cats.

tiistai posted:

This reminds me of a thing that bothered me in 999, namely how the hell didn't Snake's bracelet fall off his prosthetic wrist. I mean, they did sense the heartbeat, as well.

I guess it could have just been built differently, especially if Snake was in on the whole deal.

Prosthetics in these games are far more advanced than the kind of technology we have in real life. They're meant to be indistinguishable from a real human body part--after all, Junpei did say in 999 that he couldn't tell at all by looking that Snake's arm was prosthetic.

Added Space
Jul 13, 2012

Free Markets
Free People

Curse you Hayard-Gunnes!

tiistai posted:

This reminds me of a thing that bothered me in 999, namely how the hell didn't Snake's bracelet fall off his prosthetic wrist. I mean, they did sense the heartbeat, as well.

I guess it could have just been built differently, especially if Snake was in on the whole deal.

You're forgetting that nearly all of the bracelets, except those of the 9th man and fake Snake, were duds that only opened doors. Snake had no problem simply taking his off at one point, presumably others could but noone was brave enough to try.

Color Printer
May 9, 2011

You get used to it. I don't
even see the code. All I see
is Ipecac, Scapular, Polyphemus...


Added Space posted:

You're forgetting that nearly all of the bracelets, except those of the 9th man and fake Snake, were duds that only opened doors. Snake had no problem simply taking his off at one point, presumably others could but noone was brave enough to try.

He only managed to get it off because he crushed his prosthetic arm a bit. Junpei definitely also tried to get his off in the beginning. Them being securely attached was real; the detonator was false. (Jury's still out on whether or not there were actually any bombs in their intestines, though.)

Jeek
Feb 15, 2012

Color Printer posted:

He only managed to get it off because he crushed his prosthetic arm a bit. Junpei definitely also tried to get his off in the beginning. Them being securely attached was real; the detonator was false. (Jury's still out on whether or not there were actually any bombs in their intestines, though.)

Considering that June's goal is to get all the innocent participants out safely, she would have no incentive to place bombs in their intestines.

Blueberry Pancakes
Aug 18, 2012

Jack in!! MegaMan, Execute!

Color Printer posted:

He only managed to get it off because he crushed his prosthetic arm a bit. Junpei definitely also tried to get his off in the beginning. Them being securely attached was real; the detonator was false. (Jury's still out on whether or not there were actually any bombs in their intestines, though.)

June only put bombs in Cap, Guy X, and the 9th Man. (I can't recall all of their names.)

I'm pretty certain she didn't put one in Ace, since that could have potentially ruined the chance for him to go to Door 1 and confess on that camera that she had set up.

tiistai
Nov 1, 2012

Solo Melodica

Added Space posted:

You're forgetting that nearly all of the bracelets, except those of the 9th man and fake Snake, were duds that only opened doors. Snake had no problem simply taking his off at one point, presumably others could but noone was brave enough to try.

No, I remember that clearly. The bombs have nothing to do with it. The point was that the bracelets supposedly detach when they don't recognize a heartbeat anymore. That did seem to be the case for at least Lotus, so it seems to me there must have been some kind of a detaching mechanism that activated on death. So, how the bracelet detect a heartbeat in a crushable prosthetic arm? psychoticBacofoil suggested echoes within the hollow arm, which would make the system... sound-based? Frankly, it sounds a bit silly to me, but I suppose some tiny vibration might be tranferable in the arm. In VLR they detect electricity generated by the heart pumping, and while I'm cool with sufficiently advanced science, I don't see a reason to specifically transfer that. Maybe if it had tactile/pain receptors but from how easily it was crushed I'm guessing it didn't.

I'm ranting too much about this. The whole deal can be easily handwaved if you assume that Snake's bracelet in particular was just permanently tightened, but this heartbeat detection thing (omg plot hole :supaburn:) was the first thing that came to my head when Snake removed his bracelet.

KasaiAisu
May 3, 2010

Ask me about zoning laws in videogames
Just found this thread after finishing 999 a few weeks ago. Looks fantastic so far!

The title of the game kind of makes sense now, I mean being virtuous in choosing "ally" all the time yields a "last reward"? It's all I've got now.

Can't wait for the game to explain why Alice is in a nonary game, why there is another nonary game, etc. also what happened to june but haha they'll never tell :suicide:

I'd have to check and see if Snake's bracelet detached when he died in one of the bad ends, I'm somewhat curious now. The only plotholes I've found earlier have been directly caused by pseudoscience, normally they're good for this sort of thing.

Blueberry Pancakes
Aug 18, 2012

Jack in!! MegaMan, Execute!

KasaiAisu posted:

I'd have to check and see if Snake's bracelet detached when he died in one of the bad ends, I'm somewhat curious now. The only plotholes I've found earlier have been directly caused by pseudoscience, normally they're good for this sort of thing.

Snake doesn't die in any of the bad endings, because he's in the coffin the whole time.

His bracelet seems kind of like a red herring when you think about it. The fact that he can remove it at any time never came into play during the True Ending.

KasaiAisu
May 3, 2010

Ask me about zoning laws in videogames
Ahh, you're right, I was just associating the bad ends with "everybody dies and you are sad". Thanks.

Fall
Jun 6, 2011
Snake doesn't die ingame. He pounds and pounds on the coffin lid for days until he suffocates to death because everyone else is dead.

Meanwhile in the Axe ending timeline his sister walks right past that coffin, dripping with the blood of three people, only to die in the incinerator because she can't figure out what the q door actually is. Snake dies anyway.

:smith:

Blueberry Pancakes
Aug 18, 2012

Jack in!! MegaMan, Execute!
Or she opens it and realizes he's alive, only to feel a deep sense of shame about all of the murders.

And then they die in the incinerator.

On the topic of bad endings, I hope this game has some really good ones. The nine door being in plan sight and the betrayal system makes me a bit nervous that some of them might be variations of "Haha, I have 9 BP, later suckers." But I hope too many of them aren't like that.

Blueberry Pancakes fucked around with this message at 11:46 on Jun 6, 2013

Fall
Jun 6, 2011
"I'm so glad you're safe. What's that smell? Clover... you're bleeding! What happened?! Who did this to you? I swear to you, Clover, they'll pay for what they did."

KasaiAisu
May 3, 2010

Ask me about zoning laws in videogames
It seems like there's literally no reason to betray people though. Zero the Third mentioned that the game can go on as long as it needs to.

Alberenza
Mar 28, 2013

KasaiAisu posted:

It seems like there's literally no reason to betray people though. Zero the Third mentioned that the game can go on as long as it needs to.

Avoiding a group of potential murderers sounds like a good reason to escape from this facility as soon as possible, to be honest. Then there is Zero, who for all we know could be separate to the murderer. Factor in scary and suspicious people like K and I'm of the mind that these characters, if anything, have held together pretty well so far. For some people in the cast, 'everyone escapes' may not necessarily be the good ending, probably only really for Sigma and Luna.

KasaiAisu
May 3, 2010

Ask me about zoning laws in videogames
I don't know why they'd think any of them are murderers though.

HR12345
Nov 19, 2012

Alberenza posted:

Avoiding a group of potential murderers sounds like a good reason to escape from this facility as soon as possible, to be honest. Then there is Zero, who for all we know could be separate to the murderer. Factor in scary and suspicious people like K and I'm of the mind that these characters, if anything, have held together pretty well so far. For some people in the cast, 'everyone escapes' may not necessarily be the good ending, probably only really for Sigma and Luna.

Because people are assholes. What if one of these fine, upstanding people, is always gonna mash betray?

Wolpertinger
Feb 16, 2011

KasaiAisu posted:

I don't know why they'd think any of them are murderers though.

The whole dead body thing in a room they were just in, the 'one of you is zero' shtick from Zero III, the fact that they were all just kidnapped... Seems like good reason to be suspicious

hyphz
Aug 5, 2003

Number 1 Nerd Tear Farmer 2022.

Keep it up, champ.

Also you're a skeleton warrior now. Kree.
Unlockable Ben

Meirlkor posted:

While there's no doubt that if you find them entertaining, the originality of the character or archetype is irrelevant, it's important to consider that to many people originality is part of what makes something entertaining (making this, you guessed it, subjective), and certainly seeing the same thing over and over ad nauseam can get boring pretty quick.

Personally, I think Monobear makes a much better villain of this type than Zero III. Monobear might look cutesy, but he doesn't act or speak that way at all. He's very blunt and brutal. Zero III is trying too hard, and doesn't come across quite as well. I love Zero III's voice acting, which is certainly a big part of what makes him entertaining, but the character itself doesn't seem particularly interesting.

The problem with Monobear is that while he's a strong and interesting character, the story has to really bend over backwards to fit him in. I mean, DR with a 999-style Zero replacing Monobear would lose a lot of its charm, but would have a much more salient story and potential for a much more satisfying ending. (Heck, just imagining Monobear was called "Monochrome" in English changes the tone pretty dramatically.)

Zero3's detachment never really bothered me. It suggests he's a dispassionate AI and has no idea why the Nonary Game is scary, making the hidden threat of Zero Sr much more apparent.

Dragongem
Nov 9, 2009

Heroes of the Storm
Goon Tournament Champion

KasaiAisu posted:

It seems like there's literally no reason to betray people though. Zero the Third mentioned that the game can go on as long as it needs to.

You'd think that but there are a few things we know:

- There is an actual Zero person. Maybe he wants to see what happens when someone gets betrayed and to see if people's resolve can be tested? Or he could just be a psychopath.
- There's a dead person! One of the people is very likely a murderous bad person! Very much suspicious.

So there's reason to believe that there's at least one or more "bad dude/dudettes" who may not have your interests in mind.

Dragongem fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Jun 6, 2013

Hamsterlady
Jul 8, 2010

Corpse Party, bitches.
There's also the fact that none of these people know each other, for the most part. Could you really trust someone you met about two or three hours ago not to be selfish and try to escape as quickly as possible by choosing betray? Even if there was no reason to suspect anyone of being Zero and/or a murderer, it's still hard to trust someone you just met.

So you betray because, as far as you know, your opponent may be trying to escape as quickly as possible, leaving everyone else to die.

Shear Modulus
Jun 9, 2010



DarkHamsterlord posted:

There's also the fact that none of these people know each other, for the most part. Could you really trust someone you met about two or three hours ago not to be selfish and try to escape as quickly as possible by choosing betray? Even if there was no reason to suspect anyone of being Zero and/or a murderer, it's still hard to trust someone you just met.

So you betray because, as far as you know, your opponent may be trying to escape as quickly as possible, leaving everyone else to die.

Technically both of the pairs of people who for sure know each other were party to a betrayal, so we could say that NOT knowing the other players is the way to ensure that they won't be selfish.

suddenly cats posted:

Prosthetics in these games are far more advanced than the kind of technology we have in real life. They're meant to be indistinguishable from a real human body part--after all, Junpei did say in 999 that he couldn't tell at all by looking that Snake's arm was prosthetic.

Well, it is like 15 years in the future and Snake being hilariously overeducated made me think he was from a rich family.

Shear Modulus fucked around with this message at 17:31 on Jun 6, 2013

Fedule
Mar 27, 2010


No one left uncured.
I got you.
999 OST: [Riddle and Puzzle]





*The secondary Chromatic Doors could be opened by any number of people, so long as you had the right bracelets.



Listen in (or miss out): [English/Japanese]




The next set of Chromatic Doors you'll be going through are downstairs.
You already saw them, right?
There should have been three: red, blue and green.
That means that to get through, you'll need bracelets in cyan, magenta and yellow.




Have a look... The color's changed, hasn't it?




Mine changed from red to cyan.






It switched from "PAIR" to "SOLO".


You're right... Mine switched from "SOLO" to "PAIR".








The three of us seem to be magenta now as well.




Phi, you and Dio are yellow now too, right?








Back when the AB Gates closed.




The pair and solo assignments hop around a bit too.


And of course it's toooooootally random.
No rules or anything!

[Music fades out]




Sadly, we may never meet again.

VLR OST: [Confession]


What...?


Well, there's not really anything for me to facilitate anymore.
I mean, you guys are good from here, right?







[Music fades out]




As if I'd cry over you dummies...




He he he he he he...




Anyway, good luck. I may be gone, but I'm aaaaaaaaaaalways watching.


Maybe I'll see you again some day...



njsykora
Jan 23, 2012

Robots confuse squirrels.


Well that's gone and hosed over a few people's ideas. Here's the new setup for easy reference.

Cyan Pair: Sigma (5) and Alice (1)
Cyan Solo: Clover (6)
Yellow Pair: Phi (5) and Dio (6)
Yellow Solo: Luna (5)
Magenta Pair: Tenmyouji (1) and Quark (6)
Magenta Solo: K (6)

ThisIsACoolGuy
Nov 2, 2010

Shaped like a friend

You know I may dislike Zero 3, but the way he says "Have a nice Tragedy" always sent a chill down my spine, the voice actor did a really good with that line.

W.T. Fits
Apr 21, 2010

Ready to Poyozo Dance all over your face.

It's moments like this that make it a crime Sigma's not voiced in the game. Hearing Troy Baker's delivery on this would have been the best thing. :allears:

rudatron
May 31, 2011

by Fluffdaddy
God drat, this game keeps shoveling incentives for everyone to ally onto you, but you can bet they'll be ignored.

Now we're basically forced to consider that alice is now 1 step away from dying.

rudatron fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Jun 6, 2013

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

Thankee kindly.
Okay, so our options:

1. Sigma+Alice+K, Tenmyouji+Quark+Luna, Dio+Phi+Clover
2. Sigma+Alice+Luna, Tenmyouji+Quark+Clover, Dio+Phi+K
3. Sigma+Alice+Clover, Tenmyouji+Quark+K, Dio+Phi+Luna

Option 3 sounds like there'll be some nice backstory with Alice+Clover, and doesn't really leave anyone in danger of dying unless Clover betrays and we ally, or K betrays and T+Q ally. Option 2 is nice because Luna's likely to ally and we can either betray her to get Alice to 4 and Sigma to 8, or ally and put both Sigma and Luna in range of winning. The rest generally have little to worry about - Tenmyouji could die but Clover could afford a point less if they agree to let Tenmyouji and Quark betray. Option 1 isn't really that interesting, but Tenmyouji and Quark can get some free points from the trusting Luna and we get K, who's a pretty fascinating character.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009
Phi and Dio are going to murder eachother within five seconds, aren't they?

Regy Rusty
Apr 26, 2010

I... I'll miss you Zero III. :smith:

theshim
May 1, 2012

You think you can defeat ME, Ephraimcopter?!?

You couldn't even beat Assassincopter!!!
Tenmyoji and Quark are paired up, huh? There's going to be considerable strain there.

Also Dio is probably going to get his rear end kicked by Phi. I'm surprised no one's gone after him yet, he's basically been a complete rear end in a top hat nonstop.

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Added Space
Jul 13, 2012

Free Markets
Free People

Curse you Hayard-Gunnes!

ApplesandOranges posted:

Okay, so our options:

1. Sigma+Alice+K, Tenmyouji+Quark+Luna, Dio+Phi+Clover

I'd have to go for this option. Dio and Phi together are inevitably going to betray someone and Clover can take a hit; Tenmyouji will keep Quark in line if need be and Luna's a shoe-in to ally with them, and it really simplifies our choice since betraying K is a good choice whatever he does.

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