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Hello AI bros and bro-dettes. Some of you may remember me from my now archived electric tractor conversion thread (content available here: http://electric-massey.blogspot.ca/ ) or the Creative Convention DIY Subforum's Blacksmithing thread. Things were getting stale and boring at the ranch. I've got a dependable and fuel sipping Korean commuter appliance, and a good old hauler in my grandfather's 1990 f-150, which is in pretty amazing shape for its age. So I figured it was time to start looking for something way older than I am that's fun to drive around the straight and nicely paved roads of southern Alberta in our all too short summer months. Luckily, I found an ad on Kijiji with a huge list of cars that a fella had to get rid of because the county is breathing down his neck. Seat Safety Switch and I went out there a couple weeks ago and looked around, he took some pictures which are in the Awesome AI content thread now. Best of the bunch were two 1966 Mopar products. A Plymouth Satellite with a swapped 440, factory bucket seats, and enough bondo to entomb a house cat on the rear quarters, and the one I bought, a Dodge Coronet.   Reportedly owned by a little old man from Montana, it seems to be in pretty good shape. The fenders were replaced recently because he used to run the corners into things fairly often, like his garage. One was painted pretty amateurishly, the other not at all. The body and frame seem nice and straight, and I think I have all the trim and chrome bits. There's a long piece of chrome that runs along the rocker panels, and the driver's side has been removed, but it's sitting in my garage now.    The interior though, is something to behold. I'm told it's all original, but to be honest, it doesn't matter to me, it looks amazing. There are a couple cracks in the dash, and one on the glove box door, but it's not awful.     The horn button is broken, the little spokes snapped where it meets the 'hoop'. The odometer works, but I have no idea how many times it's rolled over, if ever.  The engine is the dependable, unkillable, and mostly boring-as-gently caress 318 V8. I've owned 5 vehicles in my life, and three of them had a 318 derived motor (87 Chrysler 5th avenue, and a 2001 Dodge Dakota with a 3.9L v6). Transmission is a 3 speed torque flight, if I'm not mistaken, all the gears work fine. Look at that brake cylinder, it's about the size of a baseball    Fender plate. The rust is a little thick here, I'm sure over the last 50 years there have been a few leaky batteries in there.   Trunk with original mat. Also a replacement tail light housing because the one that's on the car now is pretty squashed. The tobacco cans have all the trim bits and badges that were removed. S'alright with me, it saves me from taking them off before paint.  The pan under the full sized spare is amazingly rust free.  Seat Safety Switch noticed this, we think it's a builder's note on the underside of the trunklid.  Car has all its glass, the trim and weatherstripping seem pretty good. Sills are all good.  All four wheels have these pimpin hubcaps.  So I gave the man a deposit, and cleaned out a spot in the garage. Check me out, turning a 3 car into a 4 car.  Fits pretty well, I can even get in and out of both cars, thankfully.   It's going to take some work getting this thing road worthy and ready to paint. This rear fender needs work.  Bit of cancer on the driver rear quarter ahead of the tire.  Previous patch job on the same side, behind the tire. I might re-do this one, it's pretty easy to spot.  Passenger side rear was never done, but it's not too bad, considering.  Caulking around the gas tank filler is a little dirty, but it's just crud and build up, not rust as far as I can see.  Likewise on the wheel well on the passenger side, having that bottle of brake fluid there probably didn't help matters.  I took it in for an out of province safety inspection, which it failed miserably, but that's ok. It's all fixable stuff, or things I wanted to upgrade regardless. The guys at Canadian Tire didn't know that these era Dodges had reverse threaded lugnuts on one side of the car, and stripped two of them, a shame, but that's all coming out anyway.  Section 2 is my favourite.   The "seatbelts" failed because the rear seating doesn't have any, they were optional for this year's model. Front seats only have lapbelts. So, the drum brakes suck, leak, are stuck, or cannot be adjusted. Sounds like a good time to get a complete drum to disc replacement kit with a new master cylinder and a brake booster, so there's job one.  Job two is fixing some of the electrical stuff, hopefully the signal light problem is just a dead bulb. The plate ID bulb goes on these things all the time, should be a quick fix. Headlights, easy peasy. I'll re-do all 8 bits of wire on this barge if I have to. Job three is a carb rebuild, it runs fuckin crazy rich. I'm going to do something with the motor, but I'm not sure what that will be exactly. It's a numbers matching car (as far as I know) so keeping it original would be cool, but I'm definitely not married to the idea. Suggestions welcome! Job four, figure out what the gently caress happened with the vin. I have the original Montana title, and it has an extra number, and a letter where there should be a number. It's very, very close to what's on the plate in front of the door, so someone just hosed up I think. Worst part is, the Canadian border services person copied the title's vin and didn't check with the car's plate. It was imported in 2002 and has never been registered in Canada, so it might be difficult getting this all sorted out. Eventually, paint. I'm thinking a nice silver would be tasteful and match the interior well. Piano black would look great, but it's so hard to maintain and I want a driver, not a show car. Pearl white, or just a regular white might even look good. Plus some magnum wheels and better tires. The rear axle seals leak. Again, it's just a dana 60 (I think) so I'm thinking I should replace it with something, anyone have any ideas for that? Bonus original commercial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r73X2NxyGk
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May 31, 2013 05:26
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It's hard to believe that this was what passed for an economy car back in the day. Now we just have to figure out where the "muscle" part of muscle cars went. And have non-frightening brakes. And the Hotchkis B-body suspension package. Seat Safety Switch fucked around with this message at 05:37 on May 31, 2013 |
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May 31, 2013 05:32
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Was that Satellite gold with a 4 speed out of an R/T? That might have been the car my dad and I built and sold up that way many years ago...
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May 31, 2013 06:47
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Chrysler Australia used the same coupe body, except front of the windscreen, for the Valiant in Australia: I hope it gets back on the road in great condition!
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May 31, 2013 11:52
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Awesome find Slung and SSS. As a long time old car guy I can tell you that I'm pretty sure that is only 64k miles on the odo. You Am I that Valiant you posted is a different body than the Coronet. They were also known here in the US as a Plymouth Valiant or Dodge Dart.
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May 31, 2013 13:02
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Silver on cars of that era is hella sexy, because it was so less common than silver cars now. See the examples of that silver Buick Riviera Lobsterboy had for a minute, and Don Draper's current Caddy.
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May 31, 2013 13:38
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The interior confirms the odo. If it had 100k+ on it, there is no way it would look that good. No need to pitch the Dana 60. Just replace the seals and do a disc conversion on it, aftermarket brackets are like $50 and IIRC you can use 70's Caddy Eldorado calipers for real cheap. A Body front disc setup should bolt right up. Used to be common junkyard swap, also the 80-82 Mirada/Cordoba front end bolts in and is a bit of an upgrade, but will still let you use the original wheels, as a lot of the kits out there make you upgrade to 16" wheels. 318 is a reliable mill. Just not particularly powerful or efficient...You can wake it up a little and there is a small0 but expensive aftermarket, pretty much all old school tuning, Exhaust, Cam, Carb. If I had this car and some money, i'd start sourcing parts for a 5.7 Hemi swap.  But I am a sucker for modern engines in old cars.
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May 31, 2013 13:54
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Das Volk posted:Was that Satellite gold with a 4 speed out of an R/T? That might have been the car my dad and I built and sold up that way many years ago... Sorry, it was a bondo'd up white with an automatic of some kind. It also had a teeny steering wheel and aftermarket black vinyl interior. Honestly I would probably have bought it if I had the room, that 440 sounds awesome.
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May 31, 2013 14:26
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I agree on the 5.7 if you don't keep the 318. Or maybe a 360, whether LA series or Magnum series. 60 rear is fine. In fact they are generally known for being pretty bulletproof. If you can get me a pic of the diff cover I can tell you for sure what it is - my only other guess would be possibly a chrysler 8.75 or 9.25. If it's a dana 60, there should be a BOM number (bill of materials) consisting of (most likely) a 6, 5 other numbers, then a dash and one to two numbers. It'll be stamped into one axle tube (if it hasn't been rusted off the surface) and stamped into a metal tag that's fastened between two of the cover bolts - again, if it hasn't rotted off. With that info you can look up exactly what gear ratio, axleshaft size, etc etc that axle left the factory with, and exactly what parts you would need to maintain it. Almost all of them are going to still be available from a large list of manufacturers.
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May 31, 2013 16:04
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The two areas that are notorious for rust are behind the tail lights where the trunk floor meets the rear quarter and right behind the hood lift spring mounts. Looks from the pictures that those areas are pretty clean. Great project!
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May 31, 2013 17:28
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Mighty Horse posted:The interior confirms the odo. If it had 100k+ on it, there is no way it would look that good. The numbers are also all in a straight line which also signals being true mileage. Once the odo rolls the numbers don't line up right.
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Jun 1, 2013 03:22
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Seat Safety Switch posted:It's hard to believe that this was what passed for an economy car back in the day. Thanks again for driving out with me to get it man. That was awesome of you. Mighty Horse posted:The interior confirms the odo. If it had 100k+ on it, there is no way it would look that good. kastein posted:I agree on the 5.7 if you don't keep the 318. Or maybe a 360, whether LA series or Magnum series. I like the idea of a modern 5.7 engine in it, that would be fun. Regarding the rear end, images incoming. Viking, I'll grab some shots looking backwards in the trunk next time I have a camera out there. Grabbed a creeper and some supplies today at the store, jacked up the rear end and took a couple pictures. I'm not really sure the axle is a 60 anymore, everything I've read about them (which, admittedly isn't a lot) says they have asymmetrical covers that open from the other side of the input. This one is totally round on the back. I did spot some text on the front, but I'm not quite sure what I'm reading here. I'll take a brush to it this weekend if I get the time, hopefully make it easier to read.  Here are the full res images of those numbers, click for as big as I have:    Nothing on this side that I can see.  Nor the passenger side.  Huh, I guess that's where the exhaust leak is coming from. How did that pipe get twisted like that?  Tranny is well coated in protective ATF.  Oil pan looks ok at first glance. I'll get more images once I lift up the front.  Rear driver's side looking back towards the bumper.  Driver's side wheel.  Passenger's side. Hmm, this one is awfully dark compared to the other side. Think that's from the leaking axle seal?  Best part about old boxy cars? They are their own parts shelf and workbench  The whole underside of the car looks pretty decent, really. Even the e-brake cable looks ok.
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Jun 1, 2013 03:32
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I'm pretty sure this guide tells us we're working with an 8 3/4" rear end and if I had to guess that backbox probably blew open from some kind of backfire, which wouldn't surprise me with how rich that thing is running.
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Jun 1, 2013 03:48
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That is an 8.75 for sure. Here is another quite useful differential identification chart, in wearable form: http://www.allthingsjeep.com/atj11127.html My only beef with it is that it is not available with the chart printed upside down on the front so I can look down at it while wearing it. 8.75s are a dropout third member style housing like a ford 9" and most Toyota diffs - what that means is that you can put the car on jackstands, yank the axleshafts, pull the driveshaft and third member and then rebuild it or regear it in comfort on the bench instead of having to either regear under the car or pull the entire axle housing. It's quite a nice design. They're well enough respected that a family of mopar fans I know (seriously, they have a shipping container full of rebuildable 440 blocks scavenged from dealer metal dumpsters decades ago) saved 8.75s, so they can't be too bad. The 8.25 and 9.25 are fairly well respected as well, at least in the circles I am in. The one real weak point of the 8.25 and 9.25 is the pinion preload crush sleeve, under heavy abuse or lots of horsepower it will crush further which results in a loose pinion bearing. IIRC there are aftermarket kits to convert to a solid spacer with dana/spicer style preload shims, and if there aren't, I am sure Slung Blade is more than capable of producing such a thing since he's a metal magician. A little measuring, lathe time, and some time spent looking through parts catalogs to find suitable ID/OD shim assortments should do it. How the hell did you guys luck out and find a 60s car with that little rust in the salt belt? e: I googled "8.75 chrysler pinion crush sleeve" and found at least three different vendors selling crush sleeve eliminator/solid spacer+shim pack kits for it, so no matter what the drivetrain plan is, there's a way to make that problem go away. People on pirate4x4 are saying 8.75s will stand up to 600hp in stock 30 spline axleshaft form in cars, which is a reasonably solid endorsement IMO. Apparently tons of aftermarket bling available for them, lockers, spools, 35 spline chromo shafts, you name it. kastein fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Jun 1, 2013 |
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Jun 1, 2013 04:29
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drat I'm super jealous, mid to late 60's boxy mopars are my favorite. There's a local guy here that has a similar year Plymouth Fury that's bagged and looks cool as hell when it's lowered, when the rear tire gets tucked in behind the almost skirt like rear wheel well. Also has some aftermarket alloy wheels that look really good but other than that the car looks totally stock and is very tasteful. The guy said the air bags help the ride a lot too, so that may be something to consider, also look into what kind of modern upgrades you could do with the front end so it doesn't feel like a row boat going down the road.
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Jun 1, 2013 04:36
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As a lurker on your DIY forum posts, I'm excited to see your project energy focused into a vehicle. I love boxy 60s stuff too. My engine swap suggestion is a turbo 4G54 for oddities sake. And then resto-mod it with a 60's rally car feel -- like you might just run the Carrera Panamericana with it. Mudflaps, a huge rack of lights and number gumballs. You have gravel roads there right?
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Jun 1, 2013 08:18
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I vote for a white or off white cream if you paint it.
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Jun 1, 2013 13:41
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kastein posted:How the hell did you guys luck out and find a 60s car with that little rust in the salt belt? gently caress man, I have no idea. Just incredibly lucky I think. Thanks for all that awesome info! Thanks Leica, I think I'm going to go with something like this for the suspension: http://www.hotchkis.net/6669_mopar_bbody_tvs_system.html Whole kit built to work with this model of car. Pricy, but it looks pretty awesome. I've never really been a fan of bags what with the compressor and all that stuff you have to use, cool system, just not my thing. Bloot, I have to drive on a gravel road just to get home everyday. There are all kinds of great gravel roads all over the place out here, shame is most of them are laser straight, but there are some great opportunities out in the mountains by kananaskis or the Alberta forestry trunk road. Worked at a buddy's place all day rototilling and building up a deck, so I'm pretty tired here tonight, but I grabbed the aircleaner out of the engine bay to see if I could figure out exactly what carb this motor has. Spotted something rather interesting.  That little vertical arm is spring loaded and should be connected to the carb's butterfly valve. I have no idea what it's called but I'm betting it has a lot to do with why the engine is running the way it is The carb was re-maned in Canada it seems.  Interesting, none of the autoparts places seem to think this carb will fit this engine. I mean, it fits all the OTHER 318s, so I'm sure it's fine. Just seems odd. Anyone have any more info on the carb? I can't ID parts like some of you wizards can, and I'm always happy to receive your advice. Sorry, wasn't thinking, I should have grabbed a better picture.
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Jun 2, 2013 04:16
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Searching for 2 barrel 318 carburetors led me to a ebay listing of what looks to be same one, a Carter BBD Lowtop. http://www.ebay.com/itm/161-NEW-CARBURETOR-TYPE-CARTER-BBD-LOWTOP-CHRYSLER-DODGE-318-2-BARREL-V8-5-2L-/140882443753 It could be factory but I'm not sure.
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Jun 2, 2013 04:24
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I think your disconnected linkage should go something like this: Considering that looks a lot like a fuel pressure regulator to me I'm guessing that might have something to do with why that car runs rich as balls 24/7. edit: Oh, that's what a choke looks like (#10). That might explain why it was difficult to start, then. 
Seat Safety Switch fucked around with this message at 05:46 on Jun 2, 2013 |
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Jun 2, 2013 05:40
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Yeah, there's no FPR in a system like this - the fuel pump pressure is already low enough to be a non-issue, and being mechanical, flow and demand are neatly linked. As to exactly why it's running rich I can't say, but maybe whoever didn't bother with getting the choke working properly richened it up to make it start without it? At any rate, the choke is just there to make it easier to start when it's cold, you don't need it the rest of the time. When I ran my GMC with the L31 Vortec heads on the old 350, it was chokeless because I didn't want to spend the money to swap the carb for something that didn't depend on intake manifold heat to open the choke up.
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Jun 2, 2013 06:59
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Just a word of warning, what you have there is a polyhead 318. You're going to be limited on what aftermarket part will work with it. I don't believe regular LA cams, intakes, headers will work. Mopar action magazine did a Savoy project car that's similar. http://www.moparaction.com/tech/archive/savoy.html Here is their definitive disc brake swap. http://www.moparaction.com/tech/archive/disc-main.html I would get a suspension rebuild kit from Firm Feel And get rid of the points ignition with this http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dcc-3690428 Maxwedge fucked around with this message at 10:17 on Jun 2, 2013 |
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Jun 2, 2013 09:56
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Maxwedge posted:Just a word of warning, what you have there is a polyhead 318. You're going to be limited on what aftermarket part will work with it. I don't believe regular LA cams, intakes, headers will work. Ah hell, it's a polysphere? poo poo, I thought it was a regular LA block 318. Thanks for telling me  also for all those links.Welp, engine swap ahoy!
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Jun 2, 2013 15:09
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Slung Blade posted:Ah hell, it's a polysphere? poo poo, I thought it was a regular LA block 318. Thanks for telling me I decided to make sure my info on what engines you can swap was valid and found even more info I wasn't aware of. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chrysler_bellhousing_patterns You can use a Dodge Viper/Ram V10  ... or any of the modern Hemis (5.7, 6.1, 6.4, 6.6)
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Jun 2, 2013 15:18
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kastein posted:You can use a Dodge Viper/Ram V10 You know you want it.
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Jun 3, 2013 05:56
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And keep the 4 wheel drums and single circuit master cylinder
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Jun 3, 2013 12:19
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I think colour wise the Mitsubishi "Effect Grey" might be an interesting choice. It seems uncomfortable with the curved highlights on the Lancer so it would probably be at home on a boxier car. Sorry for putting a Mitsubishi in your thread.
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Jun 4, 2013 04:12
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Nice to see another old rescued Mopar! That much fluid on the rear brake dust cover is probably the leaking wheel cylinder mentioned in your report. The hubcaps are from a '74 Dart...your original steelies are 14"... The Coronet's wheelcovers were a bit nicer. I had a '65 Fury-III convertible for many years, running a 383. That rear really is a joy to work on & swap out. I bought mine in Maryland in 1985 and it was rusted waaaaay worse than yours. It's always the rear quarters, though. If you keep it, the 727 will run forever & true if you keep the fluid clean. Seconding the disc conversion; Chrysler's drum brakes were one of the bitchier ones to work on, with extra springs and a bonus cable for the self-adjuster. All that and incredible brake fade! And the left-handed lugs...at least they're stamped "L" on the ends, but I had an inspection station do the same thing...I might have a few extra lying around in a bin somewhere. Watch the U-joints. Every Chrysler I ever owned love to eat the damned things. I'll keep my eyes peeled for a horn ring. Might find one at a yard I know here in Jersey. My favorite color on that car was the dark aquamarine, sort of a bluish-green PainterofCrap fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Jun 4, 2013 |
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Jun 4, 2013 05:04
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There are all kinds of 5.7 engines out of various things on the local swapmeet type webpage, so that's awesome. I'll have lots of options to choose from, indeed. Hubcaps from a dart eh? Man, that's interesting. Now I feel even less bad about wanting to remove them and replace them with magnum reproduction wheels. At least the caps will look awesome on the wall. POC: if you see a ring, grab it please. There are a couple on ebay, but shipping is like 40 fuckin bucks, I know it's kinda fragile, but holy poo poo. Switch: Ehn, mitsubishi and dodge are kinda like cousins, so I am totally ok with this. I do like that shade a lot. First thing's first though, gotta get it road legal and running properly. Brakes, wheels & tires to cover new brakes, exhaust, lightbulbs, seals, horn. Anyone know how wide of a tire I can go with this? There seems to be lots of room in the fender, but I'm always concerned about steering geometry.
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Jun 4, 2013 05:51
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Have you joined a Mopar forum yet? There's probably all sorts of size combinations you could go with depending on what you want to do with the car. Did a 1966 Coronet GIS and this came up, white looks pretty sweet  
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Jun 4, 2013 07:05
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leica posted:Have you joined a Mopar forum yet? There's probably all sorts of size combinations you could go with depending on what you want to do with the car. drat that looks nice. No real update yet, I am just saving money for parts (and bumping the thread to keep it out of the archives before it even starts while I go for a short trip). Property tax and the car itself have pretty well tapped me out for a while here. I think I'm going with these Magnum style wheels. There's a fella out there who used 18x8 wheels with a loving 5.5" backspace ( ) with no fender mods. So hopefully these less extreme 7" wide wheels with a 4 1/4" backspacing will work. If I've hosed up the numbers please let me know, I am bad at wheel number things.This is his car, and I think it looks quite pretty 
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Jun 20, 2013 08:59
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It's like a baby Lincoln, but not done to death!
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Jun 20, 2013 09:22
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Cakefool posted:It's like a baby Lincoln, but not done to death! I think a lot of the big c-body Mopar cars from the mid/late 60s look better than the Lincolns.
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Jun 20, 2013 09:34
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G-Mach posted:I think a lot of the big c-body Mopar cars from the mid/late 60s look better than the Lincolns. That's because they hired Elwood Engel, the designer who did the 4th gen Continental
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Jun 20, 2013 12:48
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Slung Blade posted:I think I'm going with these Magnum style wheels. There's a fella out there who used 18x8 wheels with a loving 5.5" backspace ( 8" wide wheel with 5.5" backspacing means that the wheel mounting surface is 1.5" outward from being centered under the tire - so ~69% of the width of the tire is "behind" the wheel mounting surface (5.5" out of 8".) Similarly, 4.25" backspacing on 7" wheels means the wheel mounting surface is 3/4" outward from being centered under the tire, so around 61% of the width of the tire is "behind" the wheel mounting surface. The 7" wheels will therefore actually make the tires stick out of the bodywork slightly more, though the narrower wheel may suck the sidewalls in and counteract this somewhat. They'll be slightly less prone to breaking a bead when cornering hard and the effective wheel track (and thus stability, I would think) will be slightly higher, by around 1.5" total. How this affects scrub radius, fender clearance, etc depends on the diameter of the tire, kingpin inclination, caster, camber, phase of the moon, size of the wheel well, etc...
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Jun 20, 2013 14:16
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Now I understand backspacing! I don't think we need to worry about bead separation on a 60s Mopar suspension until we've had jamal out to fix it.
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Jun 20, 2013 14:34
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backspacing and offset are both pretty stupid ways of measuring things, from a user's perspective. They make sense from a manufacturing standpoint, though, so they're used. Offset makes slightly more sense, but you still have to gently caress around with a calculator to find out how things line up. Backspacing measured in percentage would probably be the easiest to understand from a user's perspective/for tire/wheel mockup purposes. 50% backspacing? OK, the tire is exactly centered on the wheel mounting surface. 75%? That's pretty deep backspacing, check your steering and suspension linkage clearance. 25%? That's hellaflush as gently caress, make sure your wheelhouse is large enough to handle the increased scrub radius without the outer sidewalls eating the fender when steering. And yeah, I don't think bead separation will be an issue until you bring that bad boy to autocross
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Jun 20, 2013 14:40
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Right, so I didn't see anyone else tell you, or if you already know otherwise, but your fender tag tells the following story;pre:Production date April 22, 1966 Shipping order 09626 Car line DODGE Coronet Price class High Body type 2 door hardtop Trim Grade High [32H] Seat type Bench vinyl [334] Trim color Red [34R] Paint 1 Beige [27X] Paint 2 Beige [28X] Paint scheme Mono tone paint [291] Upper door frame paint Green Engine 318 2bbl 8cyl 230hp polysphere A [374/381] Transmission Transmission-Torqueflite automatic [395] Radio Radio-AM Music Master/economy 2 W [421] Mirrors Mirror-outside LH remote [536] -OR- Moulding-bumper reveal [546] 
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Jun 20, 2013 15:30
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I have to admit that I never even looked at the radio to see if it had FM. Additionally it is all but guaranteed that the car will see an autocross course, even if I have to throw Star Specs on and take care of business myself. Here is a friend of mine autocrossing his brother's Parisienne with completely appropriate music on the radio. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxJDPstQfkI
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Jun 20, 2013 17:16
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Gonna be watching this thread like a hawk. I grew up around 60s Mopars - my dad had a '67 Coronet that he worked on all the time when I was little (kinda where my username came from). This is 3-year-old me and my dad back in '89, up in Prince George, recently after he painted primer grey. We drove it back down to Vancouver, with the hood coming up and almost smashing the windshield along the way. Had to pull over and rip it off, then continue on our way. I slept through the whole thing, apparently. Nostalgia derail aside, fantastic car! If you're around the Edmonton area, I might be tempted to stop by and see it for myself in late July/early August during an awesome road trip. Great find, great car, good luck on the resto.
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Jun 21, 2013 01:45
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