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HEGEL SMOKE A J posted:Universalism (as opposed to the UUs) is a belief, not a denomination, just like transubstantiation and sola fide aren't denominations; nor is it unique to the liturgical denominations, so I'm not putting it up. If you're interested in universalism in the Catholic and Orthodox churches, I'd recommend the work of the Catholic theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar as an introduction--he doesn't state that all people are going to be saved, but talks at length about how he believes he is justified in hoping they might be. Among the Orthodox, Origen is our most famous universalist--beliefs called "Origenism" were condemned after his death, but I don't think that was one of them. If you want an unimpeachably respectable source, though, read Clement of Alexandria, who seems to have influenced Origen quite a bit. This is a broad topic, but I'm curious: what do the various strains of Christianity have to say about animals having souls, and what are some goons' personal opinions about it? Also, to broaden the discussion out from just the default "dog and cat", how about Koko the gorilla? Does she have a soul? My own personal view is yes, they do, but I say this as a pet owner, so I may be biased. 
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Jun 12, 2013 23:09
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Why are Orthodox churches so freaking dark? Like, I can't see anything right now.
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Jun 12, 2013 23:19
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It's the Feast of Ascension this Thursday (celebrated later tonight). After 40 days of appearing to the apostles after his death, Christ ascends in heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father and the judge the living and the dead. Customs for the feast include the blessing of beans and grapes and the extinguishing of the paschal candle. Then in 10 more days, we'll reach Pentecost, when we'll all convert to Pentecostalism and handle venomous snakes while speaking in tongues.HEGEL SMOKE A J posted:"Officially." I like you. You're cute. 
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Jun 12, 2013 23:53
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thegloaming posted:...are you hitting on me? In the Liturgical Christianity thread?! Hey, marriage is a sacrament. Or not, depending.
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Jun 12, 2013 23:57
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Keromaru5 posted:And as someone mentioned upthread, different provinces in the Anglican Communion have their own versions of the Book of Common Prayer, and sometimes different service books. New Zealand has its own. The US has one, which itself includes Rite I--traditional language--and Rite II--modernized language, and more Eucharistic prayers*--plus "Enriching Our Worship," plus parishes that still use the 1928 BCP, plus parishes authorized to develop their own liturgies. England still uses the 1662 version, but also has a set of services in modern English called Common Worship (which I personally think is better-written than the US BCP, but it desperately needs a condensed version. There's a whole volume just for daily prayer!). If you're interested in the BCP, I'd really recommend looking at the newish OUP Book of Common Prayer. It presents the 1552 (the Edward VI-version), the 1559 (the Elizabeth I), and the post-Restoration 1662 edition. Pretty nifty and handy. And there's the Book of Divine Worship, which I mentioned in an earlier post. It's the BCP for Anglicans who've gone into communion with Rome; it pulls mostly from the 1928 BCP and the Roman Missal.
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Jun 13, 2013 00:57
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thegloaming posted:It's the Feast of Ascension this Thursday (celebrated later tonight). After 40 days of appearing to the apostles after his death, Christ ascends in heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father and the judge the living and the dead. Customs for the feast include the blessing of beans and grapes and the extinguishing of the paschal candle. Then in 10 more days, we'll reach Pentecost, when we'll all convert to Pentecostalism and handle venomous snakes while speaking in tongues. Is that why this Vespers is taking like three hours?
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Jun 13, 2013 01:07
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Keromaru5 posted:This includes the infamous "Star Wars" prayer, though personally I like to think of it as the "Carl Sagan" prayer, and then cringe when I hear it. So it's bad if I kinda like it? I don't see why it's super terrible, but I also grew up in liturgically less-strict Lutheran congregations and went to a Bible camp where worships were kind of a Cliff's Notes simplified liturgy for kids. And at that camp we did tons of nature/science stuff 
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Jun 13, 2013 01:07
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Lutha Mahtin posted:So it's bad if I kinda like it?
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Jun 13, 2013 01:13
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fade5 posted:Ah, cool, I'll check these out. I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church teaches that animals have souls, but that it's a different kind of soul than what humans have. This is essentially like what Aristotle said about "intellectual souls" vs "animal souls," though I'm sure there's some Thomistic twist to it like most of what remains of Aristotelian philosophy in Catholicism. I do know that animals can't be baptized, don't go to heaven, and aren't redeemed by Christ's death and resurrection or anything like that. Honestly that's mostly how I look at things, they have a soul but not the same as a human soul. I'm starting to be more open to the Buddhist view on souls, reincarnation, etc. but for now I still mostly feel that there's a difference in kind between animal souls and human souls.
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Jun 13, 2013 01:20
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How are patriarchs viewed in the branches of Christianity that have them? Are they regarded like Catholics view the pope? Do they have direct control over their respective faiths?
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Jun 13, 2013 01:29
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Lutha Mahtin posted:So it's bad if I kinda like it? I don't see why it's super terrible, but I also grew up in liturgically less-strict Lutheran congregations and went to a Bible camp where worships were kind of a Cliff's Notes simplified liturgy for kids. And at that camp we did tons of nature/science stuff Arsenic Lupin posted:Let me join you on the Bad Seat. I think it's pretty, especially "this fragile earth, our island home." I'll join you there as well.  I also think that particular line is very pretty. Some people don't like that prayer because it sounds too science-y, which (according to these people) makes it unromantic or "un-holy." I don't mind it, because I believe that the affirmations it makes are still true. (By the way, I think "the Carl Sagan prayer" is a far superior nickname for it. )
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Jun 13, 2013 01:48
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PurpleButterfly posted:I'll join you there as well. karl fungus posted:How are patriarchs viewed in the branches of Christianity that have them? Are they regarded like Catholics view the pope? Do they have direct control over their respective faiths? Not that there aren't some who would like to give the ABP more direct control, but that's how things are now.
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Jun 13, 2013 02:29
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I'm back from my first Orthodox liturgy. I got pelted with incense and I had to stand for three hours. I felt like I was in a play I forgot to rehearse for. Also, I think the priest sang about how the Romans defeated the Persians. I'm going back multiple times a week now. I guess I'm Orthodox? V  V(How fast do you normally learn stuff like symbolism, what to do in church, stuff like that?)
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Jun 13, 2013 03:01
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Smoking Crow posted:I'm back from my first Orthodox liturgy. I got pelted with incense and I had to stand for three hours. I felt like I was in a play I forgot to rehearse for. Also, I think the priest sang about how the Romans defeated the Persians. I'm going back multiple times a week now. It took me about three months to get used to Catholic liturgy, but I'd never gone to church before then. If you've got some church background probably a month or two, if not maybe a little longer. Multiple times a week you'll probably get it faster than that. Symbolism might take a bit of outside study, though.
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Jun 13, 2013 03:19
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Smoking Crow posted:I'm back from my first Orthodox liturgy. I got pelted with incense and I had to stand for three hours. I felt like I was in a play I forgot to rehearse for. If you thought that was confusing, be glad you didn't go to a Catholic or Episcopal liturgy and have to shift between sitting, standing, and possibly kneeling multiple times (We joke about it all the time. )Smoking Crow posted:Also, I think the priest sang about how the Romans defeated the Persians. The only Orthodox liturgy I've ever been to was the funeral of a friend's grandmother in a Greek Orthodox church. Personally, I thought the fact that almost everything was sung was the coolest thing about it. I love singing, and find it extremely spiritually fulfilling (even if I'm just listening, but even more so if I'm singing). Smoking Crow posted:(How fast do you normally learn stuff like symbolism, what to do in church, stuff like that?) Mo Tzu posted:It took me about three months to get used to Catholic liturgy, but I'd never gone to church before then. If you've got some church background probably a month or two, if not maybe a little longer. Multiple times a week you'll probably get it faster than that. Symbolism might take a bit of outside study, though. I think that sounds about right for learning what to do in church. For symbolism, I'd recommend reading books about the history of the church, or asking your priest about it after the service, or (even better) asking your priest for some reading recommendations. The priest will probably be happy to make them.
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Jun 13, 2013 03:45
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House Louse posted:Maybe I'm misremembering? Thanks for the quick reply. You might be thinking of the various flavors of Eastern Rite Catholics, who follow the Pope as the head of the church, but do a more Orthodox style of worship.
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Jun 13, 2013 04:49
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Do churches allow non-members to visit and observe?
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Jun 13, 2013 04:54
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Yes; or at least you'd be hard-pressed to find one that didn't. You probably shouldn't partake in the Eucharist unless you've spoken with the minister beforehand though.
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Jun 13, 2013 04:56
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Smoking Crow posted:Why are Orthodox churches so freaking dark? Like, I can't see anything right now. Smoking Crow posted:Is that why this Vespers is taking like three hours?  But nobody cares when you come in and when you leave, so it's fine to come in when you want and leave when you want. Smoking Crow posted:I'm back from my first Orthodox liturgy. I got pelted with incense and I had to stand for three hours. I felt like I was in a play I forgot to rehearse for. Also, I think the priest sang about how the Romans defeated the Persians. I'm going back multiple times a week now. Congratulations. Orthodoxy is the cool place to hang out. You can find most of the cool people there. In Orthodoxy you can just chill and do whatever and totally relax. "Take it easy" is the Orthodox motto, for example, that's how laid back it is there. Show up if you want to have a good time. Another good reason to show up is if you want to hang out with friends. Your handle of vodka should arrive within 7 to 10 working days. quote:(How fast do you normally learn stuff like symbolism, what to do in church, stuff like that?) HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Jun 13, 2013 |
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Jun 13, 2013 05:04
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My mom's side of the family is/was Lutheran. I remember being told "Lutherans are Catholics" (or something along those lines) a few times throughout my childhood. Could anyone shed light on this?
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Jun 13, 2013 05:14
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So if I wanted to watch a Greek Orthodox service, I'd be allowed to just sit and observe? Or does that have to be arranged with the priest first?
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Jun 13, 2013 05:17
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karl fungus posted:So if I wanted to watch a Greek Orthodox service, I'd be allowed to just sit and observe? Or does that have to be arranged with the priest first? No need to arrange anything. Just show up and follow along as much as you want. If you go up for communion, say to the priest "Father bless" so that he knows to bless you and not give you communion.
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Jun 13, 2013 05:22
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karl fungus posted:So if I wanted to watch a Greek Orthodox service, I'd be allowed to just sit and observe? Or does that have to be arranged with the priest first?
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Jun 13, 2013 05:22
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NewtGoongrich posted:My mom's side of the family is/was Lutheran. I remember being told "Lutherans are Catholics" (or something along those lines) a few times throughout my childhood. Could anyone shed light on this? They probably had a competition. Who gets Luther spinning in his grave faster would win. Going by guesswork, were the people who told you that Pentacostal Christians or heavily American Evangelical? Because from their point of view there might be striking similarities. Concerning Baptism and Eucharist the Catholic and Lutheran theology are virtually identical and miles away from the newer churches. (Well, not identical about Eucharist actually but the difference is so small I often wonder why the churches aren't in Communion with each other.) Both also have pretty similar liturgy, again at least compared to the newer churches. And then there's simply the fact that in the modern world Catholics and Lutherans just get along ahistorically well.
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Jun 13, 2013 05:29
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Valiantman posted:They probably had a competition. Who gets Luther spinning in his grave faster would win. I was told that by a great uncle who comes from a (vast) majority Catholic region of southern Germany. Admittedly, I may be misremembering what he told me.
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Jun 13, 2013 05:42
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karl fungus posted:So if I wanted to watch a Greek Orthodox service, I'd be allowed to just sit and observe? Or does that have to be arranged with the priest first? The one thing I learned from my time at church is NEVER EVER SIT DOWN. So no sitting
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Jun 13, 2013 06:04
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Smoking Crow posted:The one thing I learned from my time at church is NEVER EVER SIT DOWN. So no sitting How does a typical service go? I've never gone to a church in my life.
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Jun 13, 2013 06:07
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karl fungus posted:So if I wanted to watch a Greek Orthodox service, I'd be allowed to just sit and observe? Or does that have to be arranged with the priest first? You can just observe, I've never heard of Catholic or Orthodox parishes denying visitors. As others have said, visitors of other religions or denominations are not permitted to receive Communion, but they can go up and receive a blessing if they wish. I can't speak for all, but I personally really appreciate when non-Catholics take the time to ask these kinds of questions before attending a Mass. At various parishes in my life I have seen visitors go up to Communion who obviously did not know what they were doing, took the host, then walked back to the back of the church and just kind of milled around for a while after putting the host in their pocket. Church cleaning staff have found hosts in the lost-found basket, in the pew hymnals, the pew bookshelf, and various other places were they were apparently deposited by people who didn't know what to do with it and didn't want to eat it I guess. That is a big no-no for Catholics since we believe it is literally the body of Christ.
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Jun 13, 2013 06:14
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karl fungus posted:How does a typical service go? I've never gone to a church in my life. The thing I've learned from being a Protestant at Catholic services is look at what everyone else is doing and do that. For Orthodox, from what I can tell there's no recitation of liturgy, so don't worry. Just stand in a corner, bow when everyone else does, and try not to choke on Orthodox stink.
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Jun 13, 2013 06:16
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The one Greek Orthodox church I visited had sitting. Its been a few months since I was there but I remember the priest would come out from behind the iconostasis (that wall between the altar space and the rest of the church?), motion for everyone to stand or sit, then after half an hour or longer he'd reappear, motion everyone to change positions then return to the altar to continue his work. It was a pretty small congregation.I also remember after the service when the priest made his announcements his two main points were "you all need to come to confession more often. Like, once a year at least?" and "Please wait for me to bless the food at the brunch before digging in." I did like the near-constant singing and the smell of incense though; they really imparted a special atmosphere.
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Jun 13, 2013 06:18
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Smoking Crow posted:The one thing I learned from my time at church is NEVER EVER SIT DOWN. So no sitting God isn't going to strike you down for taking a seat.
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Jun 13, 2013 06:21
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ThreeStep posted:I also remember after the service when the priest made his announcements his two main points were "you all need to come to confession more often. Like, once a year at least?" Also, the Greeks tend to be chill as hell.
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Jun 13, 2013 06:24
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NewtGoongrich posted:My mom's side of the family is/was Lutheran. I remember being told "Lutherans are Catholics" (or something along those lines) a few times throughout my childhood. Could anyone shed light on this? I personally believe Luther died thinking he was a good catholic. I'm not sure if I want to capitalize the "C" there, but Lutheran theologians generally feel that they are a continuation of the church catholic. It's ironic that Luther started the Protestant reformation, but most modern-day old-school Lutherans (like myself) don't consider themselves under the Protestant umbrella, especially the Protestant umbrella as it's known today in America. Early Lutheran theologian Johann Gerhard said, “It is not we who call ourselves Lutherans. Rather, our adversaries call us that. We allow this to the extent that this title is an indication of the consensus that our churches have with the orthodox and catholic doctrine of Luther, set forth from Holy Writ. Therefore we allow ourselves to be named after Luther, not as the inventor of a new faith, but as the asserter of the old faith and the cleanser of the church from the stains of papist dogmas.”
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Jun 13, 2013 06:33
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HEGEL SMOKE A J posted:It's very common at more traditional parishes for people to receive the sacraments about once a year or so. My own priest suggests once a month. If someone wants you to go to confession/go to communion more than that, they probably have other modern ideas too, like pews or American right-wing politics--bad news. It looked like sacraments were distributed (I think, hard to tell from my seat in the back) and there were pews so, yeah. I don't remember any talk of politics but I skipped out the apparent post-church brunch so who knows what I missed? I'm glad I finally went (okay, it was back in February). So why's it more traditional to confess/receive the sacraments so infrequently?
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Jun 13, 2013 06:43
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karl fungus posted:How are patriarchs viewed in the branches of Christianity that have them? Are they regarded like Catholics view the pope? Do they have direct control over their respective faiths? ThreeStep posted:So why's it more traditional to confess/receive the sacraments so infrequently?
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Jun 13, 2013 06:46
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:I personally believe Luther died thinking he was a good catholic. I'm not sure if I want to capitalize the "C" there, but Lutheran theologians generally feel that they are a continuation of the church catholic. It's ironic that Luther started the Protestant reformation, but most modern-day old-school Lutherans (like myself) don't consider themselves under the Protestant umbrella, especially the Protestant umbrella as it's known today in America. This makes a lot of sense, and I'm pretty sure this is what my great uncle meant. Thanks for taking the time to explain it.
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Jun 13, 2013 07:05
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HEGEL SMOKE A J posted:They're not infallible, because no one is. We respect them a great deal because of the antiquity and prestige of their offices, but they can't tell us what to do without calling a synod. In the Orthodox Church, the best case scenario is no change whatsoever, so a new Patriarch attains his office intending to leave the faith like he found it. quote:If you receive Communion in the wrong state of mind or with sins on your soul, the belief is that it could hurt you or make you sick. People still believe that? Man you guys really do hate modern ideas. Is that popular piety or does the Orthodox Church teach that? Or, I guess, whatever the closest equivalent to "church teachings" the Orthodox have.
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Jun 13, 2013 07:29
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karl fungus posted:How does a typical service go? I've never gone to a church in my life. I don't know if you asked about a specifically Orthodox service, but I find it could be interesting to do a bit of comparison. A Lutheran service, at least here in Finland, is quite clearly outlined. Some variation is allowed in many cases but if you take your ordinary Sunday 10 am (or sometimes 12 am) service, the basic structure is like this: (I'm translating on the fly, sorry for possible misused words. The vocabulary is quite specialised. I'm also trying to avoid a huge wall of text but not condense too much.) I The Preparation
II The Word
III The Eucharist (It's not mandatory to have the Eucharist every Sunday. In fact, it's probably celebrated roughly every other week. In that case this part is considerably shorter but some of it is still there.)
IV The Ending
All the subjects of each Sunday and other Holy Days as well as all the texts for each of them are specified by the Church documents. There's no leeway but there is a three-year cycle for them so it doesn't get that repetitive. The focus points of the services are the Bible texts & the sermon and the Eucharist. The rest kinda revolves around them. Everything happens in the native language. There's no Latin or anything despite some names I've used because apparently the English language uses them. So, it's pretty codified when it comes to the bread and butter but that's not to say you can't have services very different from each other otherwise. Many, for example, feel that while the organ all good and well as an instrument, it doesn't really touch everyone. As such there are sometimes services, in addition the the main services, which have music very different from normal. I myself particularily enjoy those with more "African" music, or the ones with heavy metal hymns.
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Jun 13, 2013 08:18
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NewtGoongrich posted:I was told that by a great uncle who comes from a (vast) majority Catholic region of southern Germany. Admittedly, I may be misremembering what he told me. You probably misremembered . I'm from Bavaria myself, and while there is no real animosity left between the two denominations, a certain, well, feeling of "friendly rivalry" still exists even among the not-so-religious (when we were kids, we force-"baptised" the Lutherans in our year for fun. A bit lovely in retrospect, but they didn't mind). Some of my elderly relatives speak about Non-Catholics and Lutherans especially only as "having a different religion", like they can't comprehend being Non-Catholic. Seeing that most villages around here are still close to 100% Catholic, that's not too surprising, I guess. As an aside: are there any superstitious beliefs in "church magic" in Protestantism you could tell me about? Some examples from where I'm from: When I was about 8 (and our school prepared us for our first Holy Communion), I remember the rumour going around in the school yard that if you say the 'Our Father' backwards in front of a mirror, the devil will appear and after reciting the Hail Mary backwards, you would see your own death.  You can still regularly find adverts put in the paper that go like this: "Novena for St Claire. If everything seems to be going wrong, light a candle and pray to St Claire every day for nine days in front of it. After that period of time, put the same advert in the paper. All your wishes shall be fulfilled" or similar, and my grandmother used to "pray away" warts and other ailments when my father and his siblings were young; you'd go to an elderly person that had a reputation for that sort of stuff who would then basically perform a magical ceremony coated in Catholic prayers.
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Jun 13, 2013 08:29
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Mo Tzu posted:People still believe that? Man you guys really do hate modern ideas. Is that popular piety or does the Orthodox Church teach that? Or, I guess, whatever the closest equivalent to "church teachings" the Orthodox have. quote:Behold, I approach the Divine Communion. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 10:51 on Jun 13, 2013 |
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Jun 13, 2013 08:31
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