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Fiendish Dr. Wu posted:I figured it was a small oversight Most people (me included) think that Consider Phlebas is not the best first Culture book. I'd go with Player of Games if I were you.
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Jun 16, 2013 23:06
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House Louse posted:That's interesting, as in "interesting times". Someone with a backlist the size of that, who can't sell a book that looks rather easy to sell. I'm not quite sure what to make of it, but it's interesting the target is so low - he's figuring a print run of 200 copies. It's nice that the reward tiers are named after aspects of the novel, too. Harry Connolly of the Twenty Palaces fame couldn't sell his newest fantasy novel to the publishers because it's, quote, not grimdark enough, so he's probably going to Kickstart it sometime soon. Harry Connolly posted:Speaking of which, if you’ve read this far you’re entitled to a little news. Here it is: It sounded really fun from what he's mentioned of it on his blog. I am probably going to throw him a lot of bucks for it.
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Jun 28, 2013 12:10
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torgo posted:This is awesome news. I'd definitely kickstart it. I hope it's successful enough that he decides to continue the Twenty Palaces series the same way. He already said it's not going to happen until/unless he hits big with some other book and gets a bigger audience. The numbers just don't work for him. Each book in that series sold way less copies than the previous one and he needs to try and write something that can actually sustain his career instead of trying to squeeze water from a shrinking stone. It's a tremendous shame, I know. Megazver fucked around with this message at 21:24 on Jun 28, 2013 |
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Jun 28, 2013 21:21
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dennyk posted:Those won't last me very long, though. So, while I'm waiting for a bunch of these folks to finish their next installments, what else is good in the urban fantasy world (that isn't a thinly disguised romance or some teenager sparkly vampire bullshit)? You got most of them, really. Here's a few more: The Rook: A Novel by Daniel O'Malley. Slightly Whedonesque UF with an espionage bent. Excellent. Dead Things by Stephen Blackmoore. Probably darker than Twenty Palaces, still quite good. Libriomancer by Jim Hines. Less derivative of Dresden Files than Iron Druid, but more or less as fluff-y. It's alright. Speaking of the Druid, the sixth book is out. London Falling by Paul Cornell. A British Police Procedural. Cops desperately trying to figure out how to deal with a hosed-up supernatural threat. I found the first act a little hard to get into, but once poo poo hits the fan, it's a fun ride for the rest of the book. Three Parts Dead by Max Gladstone. This is set in a secondary world, but it's very much UF to my taste. A mage has a few days to solve a god's murder and try to bring him back to life. Fantastic worldbuilding. Low Town by Daniel Polansky. Noir UF \ fantasy hybrid. My Life as a White Trash Zombie by Diana Rowland. Awesome covers. Barely any romance, which is a plus for me in UF. A girl gets saved from death by a mysterious benefactor who also gets her a job at a local morgue. Then weird poo poo starts happening, not the least to her own body. The author spent a few years working as a coroner and it shows - I actually enjoyed the parts about her job a bit more than the supernatural bits. Blackbirds by Chuck Wendig. A psychic who can see when people die, sees her own death. A few more off-beat suggestions that aren't strictly UF: Gun Machine by Warren Ellis. Watch the trailer if "this is by Warren Ellis" isn't recommendation enough. The Alienist by Caleb Carr. New York, 1896. When a serial killer starts butchering boy prostitutes, Police Commissioner Roosevelt sets up a secret task force to help hunt him down with the power of alienism and forensics! (That's what they called psychology back then, in case any of you don't know.) Silver Pigs by Lindsey Davis. Wisecracking gumshoe solves crimes and travels around Imperial Rome. A really entertaining mix of mystery, humor, adventure and romance. The Breach by Patrick Lee. Unrelenting, mindfucky thriller.
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Jul 5, 2013 12:52
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House Louse posted:I like this post because you listed a lot of books, there's the titles and authors included, and you described them a little, too. Thanks broham.  Also, Mieville seems to imply he hasn't read The Dying Earth before writing TC&TC. Frankly, I find this hard to believe: China Mieville posted:I should say, also, that with the whole idea of a divided city there are analogies in the real world, as well as precursors within fantastic fiction. C. J. Cherryh wrote a book that had a divided city like that, in some ways, as did Jack Vance. Now I didn’t know this at the time, but I’m also not getting my knickers in a twist about it.
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Jul 6, 2013 20:37
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VanSandman posted:Does anyone have any good recommendations for a fantasy novel or series that is relatively optimistic? I'm just not very into the whole GRRM grim-and-gritty-'realism' schtick. If you don't mind a bit of a rant, I like my fantasy to be, well, fantasy. I already know people suck, I'd like to get away from that for a while. I've tried reading the Wheel of Time series and didn't like it very much. I also like urban fantasy quite a bit - I've read the Dresden Files, Rivers of London, Felix Castor, the Rook, and some others. Curse of Chalion and Paladin of Souls by Lois Bujold. You'll either love or hate Max Frei's The Stranger books. Check out the reviews and excerpts to find out which. Pratchett, obviously. Start with, hmmm, Guards Guards, Going Postal or Small Gods. It's been a while since I've read Robert Asprin's Myth books but the first few books should be good, I believe. Bridge of Birds. The Ethshar books are reportedly fun upbeat fantasy slice-of-life affairs, but I haven't had the chance to get to them yet. The Iron Druid books are pretty much Dresden Files-lite and will hit the same spot. Silver Pigs by Lindsey Davis is the first book in a fun series about a Roman gumshoe. John Scalzi writes scifi, but I think you'll enjoy it. I suspect you might have an easier time getting into The Songs of Dying Earth, the all-star tribute anthology of stories set in Jack Vance's Dying Earth than if you started with the real deal. For other UF picks check out my post on the previous page and the guy I responded to. Good books there. Megazver fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Jul 8, 2013 |
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Jul 8, 2013 13:52
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Robin Hobb's books are basically for people who get off on the self-pity and sense of superiority they receive when they identify with the protagonist's incessant victimization. That's my take.
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Jul 9, 2013 10:00
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Darth Walrus posted:On another subject, I've heard Daniel Abraham's name mentioned a lot, and was thinking of giving his work a go. Problem is, I have no idea what I'm in for or the quality thereof. Can the goon hivemind deliver its wisdom unto me? He tries interesting things and he's competent but, to my taste, his writing is bland as gently caress. Serious lack of anything that excites me in a book. Couldn't get into either of his fantasy trilogies or his UF books. The space opera Leviathan Wakes he writes with a co-author is reportedly fun, but eh, I'll give it a go some day. Eventually.
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Jul 9, 2013 21:22
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Jedit posted:I lost a lot of respect for Gaiman's creativity when I found that the Silver Age Sandman and Prez Rickard appear in Cancelled Comics Cavalcade #2. The title for Neverwhere was also lifted from a Roger McKenzie series that was stillborn due to DC's collapse in the late 70s. It didn't matter too much in the long run because The Sandman was always about retelling stories, but Gaiman didn't look too far to find them. This... doesn't really make any sense?
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Jul 10, 2013 20:32
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KingAsmo posted:I recently read American Gods and I really did not enjoy it. I thought the idea was pretty ridiculous and it always seemed like Gaiman included so much violence and sex to hide the fact that the characters are shallow and nothing really happens that I could care about. I think there were interesting philosophical ideas concerning the nature of spirituality and religion in contemporary America but these ideas were never really fleshed out. I could really only see it being an interesting read if you are really interested in mythology, which I'm not. Now Im kind of afraid to read any China Mieville because of all the comparisons to Gaimain, is this concern justified? I thought American Gods was okay, but I like pretty much all of his other work more. Sandman is his best poo poo.
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Jul 11, 2013 11:52
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Zola posted:A few more possibilities for you But he's already read LOTR?
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Jul 21, 2013 15:55
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You could just ask him: https://twitter.com/felixgilman
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Aug 2, 2013 13:39
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andrew smash posted:No poo poo. Probably the same one who thought Savage Opress was a good name. (He's Darth Maul's brother, I believe.) I can't wait for them to run out of other stupid names and finally name someone Killfuck Soulshitter, since that one is actually vaguely amusing. Megazver fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Aug 4, 2013 |
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Aug 4, 2013 22:10
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Cardiac posted:It is interesting to compare Banks, that started writing in the 80s to Asher, that started publishing in 2000. You think being a socialist in Britain in the eighties makes you an starry-eyed idealist? 
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Aug 9, 2013 11:19
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So Scalzi won the Best Novel Hugo for Redshirts. *cringes* I like Scalzi but man.
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Sep 2, 2013 09:10
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Cardiac posted:Is Redshirts any good? It's a fun short story stretched out into a novella, with three short story "codas" in the end to pad it out into something people wouldn't stab you in the face for selling as a novel.
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Sep 2, 2013 15:11
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Fried Chicken posted:As a story its pretty middle of the road. Others here summed it up well. As a meta examination of writing focusing on plot, pacing, characterization, and point of view it is really good. It is more about examining writing and serving as a vehicle for criticism of how to write rather than examining the story, if that makes sense. There are digressions about tropes not matching up with motivations and goals, or deaths and actions having meaning, and flow of dialogue. The point of the codas wasn't to pad it out, it was to examine the earlier points on writing technique as they applied to different point of view. It was kinda bullshit from the in-setting perspective. "Yeah, now that we know the scripts that we film for our lovely Star Trek ripoff tv show actually affect an alternate universe we're not going to use this knowledge with any kind of responsibility and maybe give them free energy sources, immortality drugs and pet giraffes or even have them stumble onto Planet Every Redshirt Out Of Hundreds We Casually Killed Is Resurrected Because Omnipotent Aliens, but instead we'll keep doing the exact same thing because, um, *hand waving* this is all a metaphorrrrr for writing something, except writers don't actually slaughter real people when they make their characters suffer."
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Sep 2, 2013 21:44
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Kalman posted:Fred Pohl passed away today. I don't know what his output was like in more recent years, but I may have to find the box I put Gateway into and give it a re-read. He mostly blogged. He seemed like a nice old guy.
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Sep 3, 2013 09:17
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The Gunslinger posted:I don't know, I find Sanderson's characterization fairly thin and his writing mechanical. I remember someone explaining his books to me as though the magic systems were the high point but after reading a few I find that pretty ridiculous. They are easily the weakest points in the books and require no imagination from the reader. Similarly when he writes conflict it tends to be overly descriptive and full of repetition. I decided awhile ago his stuff is just not my cup of tea. I feel like that about most of his books except Way of Kings. I think he, like, really wanted his ten volume fatasy* to succeed so he put in way more effort than he usually does. Characterization and dialogue there went from Sandersonian to "okay, I guess" and that was enough for me to enjoy the bits that he actually does well without cringing at the rest of it. *not a typo
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Sep 10, 2013 18:46
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So Harry Connolly, author of the "Twenty Palaces" series (also known as the best Urban Fantasy series ever), is Kickstarting an epic fantasy trilogy. It's been up an hour or so and he already got 5K out of the 10K he asked for. I am super happy for him 'cause he's an awesome loving writer and you should all pledge your money: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1179145430/the-great-way-an-epic-fantasy-trilogy-by-harry-con Pledge it, bitches.
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Sep 19, 2013 19:41
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Dryb posted:Why does he need a kickstarter? He's a previously published author writing a book, for gently caress's sake. Because his series was cancelled because of sales and all publishers refused to buy his new series because of midlist death spiral. Being "published" is hardly the ticket to gravy train a lot of people think it is.
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Sep 19, 2013 22:11
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savinhill posted:Yeah, even being published and being super talented is no guarantee that an author can actually make a living writing. I hope this guy's successful with his Kickstarter and more authors in his situation can use it in the future. He's at 8.5K/10K six hours in, so I think he'll manage. Also, from Twitter: quote:Michael W Lucas @mwlauthor 3h This is kinda ambiguous and he's been quite resistant to the idea of crowdfunding more 20P books before... but perhaps being on the verge of successfully crowdfunding a book in 12 hours is weakening his resolve? Fingers crossed.
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Sep 19, 2013 23:02
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Fallorn posted:So what we really want is to have him make sure the twenty palaces rights are sorted out and crowd fund the book we want to read. He already has the rights. He said he wasn't going to crowdfund a 20P book in the near future because each book in the series actually sold less than the previous one and continuing to write more at this juncture is a road into oblivion. He is going to try and write something else that hopefully draw a new audience and after he finds something that works and draws more eyes to his work, he'll try to revive 20P. EDIT: He did it! 10K in under eight hours! 
Megazver fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Sep 20, 2013 |
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Sep 20, 2013 01:11
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mystes posted:Although, if he's already written a first draft of the whole trilogy I'm not sure if I totally see the point of a kickstarter rather than just finishing and selling it in ebook form like Hugh Howey. Editing and covers cost money.
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Sep 20, 2013 20:44
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Fallorn posted:I am very sad that I can not find more urban fantasy that is good to read. Time to start reading free books on iTunes till I give up on books for a while. I wrote this recommendation post a while ago for someone else, might as well post it again for you. I'm reasonably sure you'll find _something_ new here to read. I'm listing first books, when there's more than one in a series: The Rook: A Novel by Daniel O'Malley. Slightly Whedonesque UF with an espionage bent. Excellent. Child of Fire by Harry Connolly. Rather dark, a page-turner, very inventive worldbuilding. I think this might actually be my favorite UF series. Midnight Riot/Rivers of London by Ben Aaronovitch. A British cop becomes an apprentice of Britain's last wizard-slash-detective inspector. Dryly witty, in a British way. (US and UK releases got different names.) The Bone Key by Sarah Monette. You could argue that this is horror rather than UF, but it hit the same spot for me. It's a collection of short stories set in 1930s that are about an awkward, introverted museum archivist who is seemingly incapable of not getting involved (usually against his will) in creepy-rear end ghost-and-necromancy related situations. It's really good. Sandman Slim by Richard Kadrey. A magician is back after spending eleven years in Hell and he's really, really pissed at the people who sent him there and killed his girlfriend. London Falling by Paul Cornell. A British Police Procedural. Cops desperately trying to figure out how to deal with a hosed-up supernatural threat. I found the first act a little hard to get into, but once poo poo hits the fan, it's a fun ride for the rest of the book. Three Parts Dead by Max Gladstone. This is set in a secondary world, but it's very much UF to my taste. A [strike]mage[/strike]craftswoman has a few days to solve a god's murder and try to bring him back to life. Fantastic worldbuilding. Low Town by Daniel Polansky. Noir UF \ fantasy hybrid. Former guard and current drug dealer is forced to investigate a series of murders in a fantasy city. My Life as a White Trash Zombie by Diana Rowland. Awesome covers. Barely any romance, which is a plus for me in UF. A girl gets saved from death by a mysterious benefactor who also gets her a job at a local morgue. Then weird poo poo starts happening, not the least to her own body. The author spent a few years working as a coroner and it shows - I actually enjoyed the parts about her job a bit more than the supernatural bits. (EDIT: Third book kinda got too relationship-y for my tastes. I still recommend the first book, though.) Blackbirds by Chuck Wendig. A psychic who can see when people die, sees her own death and now has to somehow try and prevent it, even though she never succeeded before. The Dirty Streets of Heaven by Tad Williams. Angels and demons both send out their own to work among humans while wearing human bodies. The hero is an angel PI who investigates a disappearance of a soul. Tad Williams is a good writer, you guys. This is a good book. Libriomancer by Jim Hines. Less derivative of Dresden Files than Iron Druid, but yeah, it's fluff like Iron Druid. Okay read. Dead Things by Stephen Blackmoore. Modern day necromancer investigates the murder of his SPOILER. More noir than Twenty Palaces, somehow. Good, but it depressed me. A few more off-beat suggestions that aren't strictly UF: Neil Gaiman's books. Duh. I'd say Sandman *starting with volume 2 is what I love the most, but *The Graveyard Book might be a good introduction. Gun Machine by Warren Ellis. Watch the trailer if "this is by Warren Ellis" isn't recommendation enough. The Alienist by Caleb Carr. New York, 1896. When a serial killer starts butchering boy prostitutes, Police Commissioner Roosevelt sets up a secret task force to help hunt him down with the power of alienism and forensics! (Alienism is what they called psychology back then.) Silver Pigs by Lindsey Davis. Wisecracking gumshoe solves crimes and travels around Imperial Rome. A really entertaining mix of mystery, humor, adventure and romance. The Breach by Patrick Lee. Unrelenting, mindfucky thriller. Altered Carbon by Richard Morgan. Hardboiled post-cyberpunk, basically. The Scar is China Mieville's best book. There's a few more series that weren't my thing, but hey, you might want to check them out anyway: Felix Castor series by Mike Carey. Alex Verus series by Benedict Jacka. Mercy Thompson series by Patricia Briggs. Grimnoir Chronicles by Larry Correia. Megazver fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Feb 16, 2014 |
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Sep 23, 2013 13:27
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House Louse posted:Jack Vance's Cugel books (the middle two volumes of the Tales of the Dying Earth compilation) and Hugh Cook, whose only book in print, The Walrus and the Warwolf, fits the bill perfectly. Try looking for older stuff labelled as sword and sorcery rather than fantasy in general. Dying Earth is excellent, but come on, Cugel makes Walter White look like a Peace Corps volunteer. EDIT: "At different times, [Hugh Cook's] novels portray or allude to murder, bestiality, female genital cutting, cannibalism, racism, sexism, speciesism, abortion, masturbation, mutation, incest, inbreeding, constipation, assassination, gambling, drunkenness, brawling, diarrhea, capitalism, leprosy, castration, slavery, evolution, patricide, regicide, venereal disease, forgery, treason, dwarf tossing, torture, orgies, incontinence, suicide, disembowelment, capital and corporal punishment, drug use, religious fraud, bribery, blackmail, animal cruelty, disfigurement, infanticide, the caste system, democratic revolutionary movements, rape, theft, genocide, transvestism, premature ejaculation, prostitution, piracy, and polygamy." Well poo poo, surprisingly autistic Wikipedia article, now I have to read this. Megazver fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Sep 30, 2013 |
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Sep 30, 2013 22:15
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So, I'm going to flog Harry Connolly's Kickstarter for his epic fantasy trilogy one more time. Sorry. The Kickstarter is doing good. With eighteen days still to go he's at 30K, which is 20K over the goal and in four more thousand dollars he'll hit the stretch goal where the books get covers done by Chris McGrath. His style a little... colder than what I expected from Harry's description of what he wanted to achieve with the books, but the guy obviously knows his poo poo and he did the covers for 20P, so it seems that they already have a working relationship. More importantly, he started posting the beginning of the first book on his blog for those who wanted to check it out before deciding whether to pledge. He posted two chapters so far (links: one, two) and he'll keep posting a chapter a day for the next five days. I was a little anxious to start reading them, worried the book wouldn't live up to my expectations but I'm very relieved to say that two chapters in, I'm already into this poo poo. Even in this early pre-editor draft, it's engaging as hell. Oh, also, if the Kickstarter gets thirty-ish more backers, everyone who pledged $12+ will get a free ebook of the Twenty Palaces prequel novel and, when he does some rewriting and a whole bunch of editing on it, a free ebook of his other trunk novel 'A Key, An Egg, An Unfortunate Remark'. That one's a lighthearted UF novel that he describes as Auntie Mame + Dresden Files which he wrote because he wanted to write something that was the complete opposite of Twenty Palaces. That... actually sounds like fun to me.
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Oct 2, 2013 00:03
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Nondescript Van posted:Is "Ancillary Justice" and good? I've read positive things but all of it just seems like ad copy from the publisher. There is a lot of hype for it, but a large amount of it is about how ~*socially progressive*~ it is with the default pronoun for everyone in the book being 'she', etc. I'm not a person who thinks that, say, Sleepy Hollow the new TV show is automatically good because one of the leads is a black lady or that Elementary is automatically better than Sherlock because Watson is played by Lucy Liu, so I'm going to wait until the hype subsides a bit and check it out then. A good method of evaluating books in these cases is one that I think I'll follow and that's to wait for some negative reviews on Amazon and see whether they're written by total twats and thus make the book look good or if there's some genuine criticism in there. That's what I recommend to you.
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Oct 6, 2013 04:46
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mallamp posted:It's even worse reading the same from female authors "ahhh those abs, ahh that androgynous, yet muscular & oiled teenager (who's bi-sexual by the way, and reads poetry)". At least you can relate to the male-written male-centric stuff as a man. Oops, no, that's not trendy opinion at all - actually I'm feminist and I hate all those dirty male authors. You forgot "waist-length hair".
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Oct 15, 2013 19:02
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Wolpertinger posted:Has anyone else read Miles Cameron's The Red Knight? I'm surprised at how much I'm enjoying it, considering I've seen it out for a while but never really bothering with it due to the uninteresting sounding blurb. It's got a Black Company/Song of Ice and Fire feel to it, but while still being in the same realistic/grim style it isn't as oppressively bleak and cynical as SoIaF, which made me grow to dislike that series - I can only stand utterly unlikable characters killing each other off and dying horribly for so long, you know? I've put it down 1/3 through to read something else and didn't go back to it yet, but I should. It was pretty decent. He way overdid it with the number of PoVs, though.
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Oct 18, 2013 11:58
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I'll throw in one final plug of Harry Connolly's Kickstarter for his epic fantasy novel The Great Way because I have no shame . It hit the final stretch goal yesterday and now everyone who pledges $12+ will get the Twenty Palaces prequel novel, the to-be-finished-next-year pacifist UF novel (think Dresden Files meets Auntie Mame) and, now, the short story collection with almost every short story he wrote so far which will include new Twenty Palaces story (all in ebook format) in addition to the other stuff you'd get depending on the tier. There are also some cool-sounding RPG supplements for FATE Core and some wallpapers and a map, but the books are the exciting bit. It's a hell of a deal from an excellent writer.
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Oct 18, 2013 23:34
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I suspect we'll have to see a few more successful novels from him before he gives it another try. I'm okay with waiting a while, as long as he actually writes other awesome books while at it.
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Oct 18, 2013 23:55
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So, Harry Connolly got 50K, which puts him at second highest money total among Kickstarter for single author fiction novel projects. (There's a few more memoirs and anthologies and picture books with more money.) The guy who got more money for his novels is best known for being a creator of multiple TV shows and being "UK's Walt Disney or George Lucas.". This has been a really impressive run. One more Kickstarter like this and I have a feeling we're getting more of Twenty Palaces next.
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Oct 20, 2013 07:14
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House Louse posted:Isn't Felix Gilman, the author of Half-Made World, a goon? He posted here on his account a few times, but I'm not sure about "goon".
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Nov 1, 2013 18:37
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ace_beef posted:I was trying to work out which fantasy series I wanted to read next. If you want to try Sanderson, Way of Kings is probably his most, uh, okay book. I do not have the strength of will to suffer through the first two Malazan books to get to the promised land of "oh it gets good!" so I can't help you there. A few fantasy novels I've enjoyed recently: A Thousand Names by Django Wexler. Three Parts Dead by Max Gladstone Blood Song by Anthony Ryan Low Town by Daniel Polansky The Half-Made World by Felix Gilman The Desert of Souls by Howard Andrew Jones Heroes Die by Matthew Stover
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Nov 6, 2013 16:36
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Is it less, uh, light-weight than the Eli Monpress books? I've read half of the first one and while there was nothing bad to say about it, it was kinda... fluff. Reading so light it floated.
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Nov 9, 2013 12:29
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regularizer posted:I liked London Falling a lot, but the beginning of the book almost put me off because it was initially very hard to tell the characters apart. Not as good as the PC Grant books, but it was still very strong. Yeah, the beginning is a bit rough. Just get through it, it gets really, really good.
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Nov 23, 2013 09:54
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Max Awfuls posted:How many Tea Party creeps are there actually writing mainstream fantasy and sci-fi? I've come to these genres recently and I keep stumbling on these Dan Simmons and Orson Scott Card nutters and every time I look up any recommendation I dread googling the author and finding them going on a rant about feminazis and Muslim Obama. Larry Correia is a Mormon Republican who really, really likes guns and hates Obamacare, etc, but generally he seems to not be a dick about things. John C Wright, on the other hand, I think might be certifiably insane at this point.
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Nov 23, 2013 20:59
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regularizer posted:Just a heads up, Promise of Blood is $1.99 on the Kindle right now. I haven't read it but it looks pretty interesting and has received a ton of positive reviews with 4-5 stars on Amazon, Goodreads, and Barnes and Noble. It was written by a Sanderson protege and it reads like it. You decide for yourself if that's good or not. Personally, I dropped it a few chapters in and moved on to Two Serpents Rise. (Which is fantastic.)
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Nov 24, 2013 11:14
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the least weasel posted:This might be a stupid question but I'm curious whether there's any recommended reading order for the books/stories by Cordwainer Smith. His bibliography is so confusing and probably it doesn't even matter but I just bought The Rediscovery of Man and wanted to make sure I get the right 'effect'. When should I read Norstrilia? What about any other collections of short stories? He has a single collection of all his stories and a single novel, I am p. sure. You've already mentioned them. You read the former, then the latter.
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Nov 27, 2013 17:45
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