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Yoya
Nov 6, 2009

I already bought the chicken


So what kind of bonus will the dickwolf mask give me? Every lovely journalist is going to jump on this so strap in.

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Closet Cyborg
Jan 1, 2008
Our love will rust this world


Game intended to make people uncomfortable with their actions makes person feel uncomfortable with their actions. I agree that just shoehorning surprise sex in everywhere tends to be juvenile and tasteless, but it could work. Playing the first game in the middle of the night just before my meds kicked in made me feel quite unsettled and queasy, but since that was the purpose, I'd count it as a win for Cactus. If upping the ante on disquieting themes can produce that effect for non-crazy people, I'd say it's worth a shot.

toasterwarrior
Nov 11, 2011


I think it works. It's an extreme in a game of extremes, and the brutal stab in the gut when you realize that the whole sequence is a horrible misrepresentation of possibly the only good act your former protagonist did in the last game is even more painful when it's revealed that people are fetishizing his rampages.

I suppose if they wanted to make you feel real uncomfortable with that scene and revelation about what Hotline Miami's setting meant going forward, they drat well accomplished it. Stories don't have to be pleasant for me to recognize how well they're done.

DACK FAYDEN
Feb 25, 2013

Bear Witness

Isn't the entire point of that narrative that the sleazebag director (for whatever reason still unrevealed) is trying to make a movie that goes beyond Jacket's story in disgusting ways? And wasn't rescuing the woman the one unarguably good thing that Jacket did over the entire game? I don't know, I guess I'm just okay with this because I haven't checked my privilege.

StevenM
Nov 6, 2011


He raises an excellent point about the limited agency of women in games, and at least he acknowledges the hypocrisy in his desensitization, enjoyment even, of murdering masses of faceless goons and then feeling revulsion at one implied assault. It's a shame that developers are looking to sexual assault as the new quick-and-cheap conveyance of how immortal people can be.

quote:

How can you enjoy yourself in a game if you are the victim of every brutal crime, and not the perpetrator of them? A horrible question Ė but itís about freedom, power, and who gets to have those things. The sexual violence at the end of that tutorial will single out a fifth of the female audience who have experienced sexual violence. Iím thinking about them when I turn back to the game.

However his erasure of male surprise sex survivors is problematic and indicative of a society that has no bias in gender or lifestyle when it comes to rationalizing away the accountability of criminals.

Miltank
Dec 27, 2009

by XyloJW


StevenM posted:

He raises an excellent point about the limited agency of women in games, and at least he acknowledges the hypocrisy in his desensitization, enjoyment even, of murdering masses of faceless goons and then feeling revulsion at one implied assault. It's a shame that developers are looking to sexual assault as the new quick-and-cheap conveyance of how immortal people can be.


However his erasure of male surprise sex survivors is problematic and indicative of a society that has no bias in gender or lifestyle when it comes to rationalizing away the accountability of criminals.

The article was written by noted "not a man" Cara Ellison.

MMF Freeway
Sep 15, 2010

Later!


StevenM posted:

He raises an excellent point about the limited agency of women in games, and at least he acknowledges the hypocrisy in his desensitization, enjoyment even, of murdering masses of faceless goons and then feeling revulsion at one implied assault. It's a shame that developers are looking to sexual assault as the new quick-and-cheap conveyance of how immortal people can be.


However his erasure of male surprise sex survivors is problematic and indicative of a society that has no bias in gender or lifestyle when it comes to rationalizing away the accountability of criminals.

*She

Quite frankly, the scene sounds appropriate given the context of the story.

Miltank
Dec 27, 2009

by XyloJW


The rear end Stooge posted:

I'm very, very skeptical of any piece of media that uses sexual violence for shock value or to elicit an emotional response. Unless done expertly, it comes off as cheap and puerile, and I'm sorry to say I don't have high hopes for Hotline Miami 2's ability to pull it off. I can't make a judgement until the game is actually out, but Ellison's impression is very worrying.

I really can't think of a game that would be better suited thematically and visually for using sexual violence than Hotline Miami.

...of SCIENCE!
Apr 26, 2008

43 species of parrot?! Nipples for men?! SLUGS?! Are we not in the hands of a lunatic?! If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, 8 o'clock, day one!


You didn't see murder victims complaining about the first game, roughly one-fifth of women just need to grow a thicker skin

TychoCelchuuu
Jan 2, 2012

This space for Rent.

Miltank posted:

I really can't think of a game that would be better suited thematically and visually for using sexual violence than Hotline Miami.
Which is not to say it's impossible for them to gently caress it up. I thought everything in the original Hotline Miami was pitch-perfect, tonally, but I know a lot of people thought the hospital level didn't work at all. Now, obviously a lot of people didn't like that level for gameplay reasons in addition to (or in place of) tonal reasons, but I think it's a mistake to separate those two entirely with Hotline Miami (as it is with most games) and the point I want to make is just that the developers aren't flawless. It's possible for them to mess things up, and messing up a surprise sex scene in your video game comes with some pretty big downsides. Like, yes, if there's a game that can make sexual violence work, it's this one much more than loving Tomb Raider or something, but that's not to say this game will make sexual violence work.

Babe Magnet
Jun 1, 2008


The game is actively making fun of and dismissing people who use surprise sex as a shock tactic to make their works for edgy and "mature", though I can guess that's hard to see when you're so hellbent on viewing anything even approaching the subject of "surprise sex", whether in a positive or negative light, as something evil that must be erased. The director, who's intent to use surprise sex just to make his film darker, is depicted as an obvious scumbag and just a lovely person in general. The game is not using surprise sex to make itself seem more horrible and edgy, it is trashing those people who do.

But no, implied surprise sex, lets not do any research or think about it too hard, lets just go back to murdering hundreds of dogs and people with drills and screwdrivers where it's safe.

Trainmonk
Jul 4, 2007


Wow yeah gonna enjoy reading every straight white male gamer opinion about how the sexual assault thing "totally works". It definitely makes you uncomfortable and that's what he was clearly going for, but is it okay...?

The answer, of course, is no.

Miltank
Dec 27, 2009

by XyloJW


TychoCelchuuu posted:

Which is not to say it's impossible for them to gently caress it up. I thought everything in the original Hotline Miami was pitch-perfect, tonally, but I know a lot of people thought the hospital level didn't work at all. Now, obviously a lot of people didn't like that level for gameplay reasons in addition to (or in place of) tonal reasons, but I think it's a mistake to separate those two entirely with Hotline Miami (as it is with most games) and the point I want to make is just that the developers aren't flawless. It's possible for them to mess things up, and messing up a surprise sex scene in your video game comes with some pretty big downsides. Like, yes, if there's a game that can make sexual violence work, it's this one much more than loving Tomb Raider or something, but that's not to say this game will make sexual violence work.

Truth.

Question: Does it work considering what we have seen so far?

moths
Aug 25, 2004



I'm mad that this is in the game. I completely loved HM1 but there's no way I can get behind supporting sexual violence, even if it's "simulated".

People will whine about slacktivism and boycotts and social justice whatevers, buy I'm just talking myself here. This is a game I was looking forward to that I'm now very uncomfortable with. It's a poo poo in the pool I wanted to swim in.

E supporting sexual violence in a game, obviously

moths fucked around with this message at Aug 15, 2013 around 18:49

MMF Freeway
Sep 15, 2010

Later!


Trainmonk posted:

Wow yeah gonna enjoy reading every straight white male gamer opinion about how the sexual assault thing "totally works". It definitely makes you uncomfortable and that's what he was clearly going for, but is it okay...?

The answer, of course, is no.

Why not?

Trainmonk
Jul 4, 2007


Babe Magnet posted:

The game is actively making fun of and dismissing people who use surprise sex as a shock tactic to make their works for edgy and "mature", though I can guess that's hard to see when you're so hellbent on viewing anything even approaching the subject of "surprise sex", whether in a positive or negative light, as something evil that must be erased. The director, who's intent to use surprise sex just to make his film darker, is depicted as an obvious scumbag and just a lovely person in general. The game is not using surprise sex to make itself seem more horrible and edgy, it is trashing those people who do.

But no, implied surprise sex, lets not do any research or think about it too hard, lets just go back to murdering hundreds of dogs and people with drills and screwdrivers where it's safe.

Man I love this argument, the one where you excuse it because of all the murder your character does. Like there are any murder victims around to be triggered. Bonus points for using it in a sentence where you criticize people for not thinking hard enough.

TychoCelchuuu
Jan 2, 2012

This space for Rent.

Miltank posted:

Truth.

Question: Does it work considering what we have seen so far?
Answer: I don't know, I actually haven't been reading previews. Games I think I'll play are games I ignore previews for because I like going in blind. If Cara Ellison says it doesn't work, though, I'd be worried.

...of SCIENCE!
Apr 26, 2008

43 species of parrot?! Nipples for men?! SLUGS?! Are we not in the hands of a lunatic?! If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, 8 o'clock, day one!


Babe Magnet posted:

The game is actively making fun of and dismissing people who use surprise sex as a shock tactic to make their works for edgy and "mature", though I can guess that's hard to see when you're so hellbent on viewing anything even approaching the subject of "surprise sex", whether in a positive or negative light, as something evil that must be erased. The director, who's intent to use surprise sex just to make his film darker, is depicted as an obvious scumbag and just a lovely person in general. The game is not using surprise sex to make itself seem more horrible and edgy, it is trashing those people who do.

But no, implied surprise sex, lets not do any research or think about it too hard, lets just go back to murdering hundreds of dogs and people with drills and screwdrivers where it's safe.

Thank god the white male game devs are here to tell us how awful surprise sex is! If only women would stop being so hysterical so we could enjoy some real commentary in the form of this blood shootymans game.

MMF Freeway
Sep 15, 2010

Later!


moths posted:

I'm mad that this is in the game. I completely loved HM1 but there's no way I can get behind supporting sexual violence, even if it's "simulated".

People will whine about slacktivism and boycotts and social justice whatevers, buy I'm just talking myself here. This is a game I was looking forward to that I'm now very uncomfortable with. It's a poo poo in the pool I wanted to swim in.

Haha how is it "supporting sexual violence"?

Trainmonk posted:

Man I love this argument, the one where you excuse it because of all the murder your character does. Like there are any murder victims to around to be triggered. Bonus points for using it in a sentence where you criticize people for not thinking hard enough.

Well the loved ones of the murdered could perhaps be "triggered".

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky


Trainmonk posted:

Wow yeah gonna enjoy reading every straight white male gamer opinion about how the sexual assault thing "totally works". It definitely makes you uncomfortable and that's what he was clearly going for, but is it okay...?

The answer, of course, is no.

i don't know, it seems pretty germane that nobody's actually played the game, so any statement about this game's politics/problematic-icity/whatever, whether positive or negative, might be misinformed?

see also: the castle doctrine

MMF Freeway
Sep 15, 2010

Later!


...of SCIENCE! posted:

Thank god the white male game devs are here to tell us how awful surprise sex is! If only women would stop being so hysterical so we could enjoy some real commentary in the form of this blood shootymans game.

What are you even saying?

Trainmonk
Jul 4, 2007



Because the shock value is only good for triggering actual surprise sex victims. The commentary about how surprise sex is dumb or whatever is completely worthless afterwards.

Trainmonk
Jul 4, 2007


voltron lion force posted:

Haha how is it "supporting sexual violence"?


Well the loved ones of the murdered could perhaps be "triggered".

Do you think a lot of people who get triggered by a loved ones murder play ultra violent murder games?

Also that's not the same at all by the way.

MMF Freeway
Sep 15, 2010

Later!


Trainmonk posted:

Because the shock value is only good for triggering actual surprise sex victims. The commentary about how surprise sex is dumb or whatever is completely worthless afterwards.

I don't agree with that. I think most people, even those that aren't surprise sex victims, can be shocked by its depiction.

TychoCelchuuu
Jan 2, 2012

This space for Rent.

Fag Boy Jim posted:

i don't know, it seems pretty germane that nobody's actually played the game, so any statement about this game's politics/problematic-icity/whatever, whether positive or negative, might be misinformed?

see also: the castle doctrine
When one of the things touching off this conversation is the report of someone who has played the game I am not sure it is entirely accurate to say that nobody's actually played the game.

Trainmonk
Jul 4, 2007


voltron lion force posted:

I don't agree with that. I think most people, even those that aren't surprise sex victims, can be shocked by its depiction.

Pointlessly shocked. That's why I said it's "only good for" triggering.

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky


TychoCelchuuu posted:

When one of the things touching off this conversation is the report of someone who has played the game I am not sure it is entirely accurate to say that nobody's actually played the game.

i think an analysis of the entire game is necessary to really see if something like this "works"- the surprise sex scene in Straw Dogs is horrific out of context, and very arguably horrific in context, but criticisms of it that don't take the full context of the film into account can't be considered informed

Miltank
Dec 27, 2009

by XyloJW


Trainmonk posted:

Because the shock value is only good for triggering actual surprise sex victims. The commentary about how surprise sex is dumb or whatever is completely worthless afterwards.

The commentary isn't surprise sex is dumb. The commentary is "what the gently caress are you doing playing this game?" I think it is important to note that there is no flashing press A to surprise sex button. I seem to remember that there were instances in the original hotline where the avatar responds to button presses in unexpected ways.

"I didn't want to surprise sex her! That is evil! I only wanted to climb on top of her and BASH HER loving SKULL INTO THE TILE!"


Miltank fucked around with this message at Aug 15, 2013 around 19:00

MMF Freeway
Sep 15, 2010

Later!


Trainmonk posted:

Pointlessly shocked. That's why I said it's "only good for" triggering.

I think the Babe Magnet explained a perfectly valid point to it. I assume you don't think that's pointy enough though.

TychoCelchuuu
Jan 2, 2012

This space for Rent.

Fag Boy Jim posted:

i think an analysis of the entire game is necessary to really see if something like this "works"- the surprise sex scene in Straw Dogs is horrific out of context, and very arguably horrific in context, but criticisms of it that don't take the full context of the film into account can't be considered informed
I agree, I think, but I just wanted to point out that the original report of "this doesn't really work" came from someone who had played the game.

Trainmonk
Jul 4, 2007


voltron lion force posted:

I think the Babe Magnet explained a perfectly valid point to it. I assume you don't think that's pointy enough though.

He made a terrible point, it's the opposite of a perfectly valid point. The developer making fun of other developers using surprise sex for shock value by using surprise sex for shock value did nothing except the exact same thing, with some worthless commentary afterward.

toasterwarrior
Nov 11, 2011


Miltank posted:

The commentary isn't surprise sex is dumb. The commentary is "what the gently caress are you doing playing this game?"

I think it is important to note that there is no flashing press A to surprise sex button. I seem to remember that there were instances in the original hotline where the avatar responds to button presses in unexpected ways. "I didn't want to surprise sex her! That is evil! I only wanted to climb on top of her and BASH HER loving SKULL INTO THE TILE!"

Well, you could say rescuing the girl instead of mercy-killing her like she asks you to and would probably expect being a serial killer is one of these.

There's also some other stuff where the screen goes static after "beating" the van driver and the next thing you know is you've murdered him brutally, though I guess that's more of Jacket losing his sanity even more.

Trainmonk
Jul 4, 2007


Fag Boy Jim posted:

i think an analysis of the entire game is necessary to really see if something like this "works"- the surprise sex scene in Straw Dogs is horrific out of context, and very arguably horrific in context, but criticisms of it that don't take the full context of the film into account can't be considered informed

No, it's not necessary. The criticism is that surprise sex shouldn't be in video games, not how effective the commentary is.

MMF Freeway
Sep 15, 2010

Later!


Trainmonk posted:

He made a terrible point, it's the opposite of a perfectly valid point. The developer making fun of other developers using surprise sex for shock value by using surprise sex for shock value did nothing except the exact same thing, with some worthless commentary afterward.

See you say the commentary is worthless, but it re-frames the whole situation. But I see now that there is literally no way you'd ever be ok with this so whatever.

Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky


Trainmonk posted:

No, it's not necessary. The criticism is that surprise sex shouldn't be in video games, not how effective the commentary is.

i don't really agree with this at all, except perhaps in the sense that most game writing isn't anywhere near good enough to deal with a subject like that effectively.

FutureFriend
Dec 28, 2011

Give me your countries!


So uhm, about non-sexual assault stuff, because we already had this exact same discussion last time. Have any more tracks in the soundtrack been revealed so far?

Babe Magnet
Jun 1, 2008


As long as you don't press buttons to perform the surprise sex (the whole part is in a cutscene, you don't actually perform surprise sex Combos), I don't see what the difference is between it being in a game and it being in a movie or a book.

Also I wasn't excusing the surprise sex because you murder people, but I'll give you the point that adding that last bit was a miss-step. I don't feel like it diminished my main point, however, that trashing the act of adding shock-surprise sex to a narrative does not mean you are advocating the use of shock-surprise sex in your narrative.

Trainmonk
Jul 4, 2007


voltron lion force posted:

See you say the commentary is worthless, but it re-frames the whole situation. But I see now that there is literally no way you'd ever be ok with this so whatever.

You're missing the point entirely, over and over. The commentary is worthless because it doesn't even work. Look at all these people, including you, who don't even agree with what it's saying. It's saying it shouldn't be used for shock value in video games and you cheer on an example of it that happened right before it, like idiots.

Miltank
Dec 27, 2009

by XyloJW


Trainmonk posted:

You're missing the point entirely, over and over. The commentary is worthless because it doesn't even work. Look at all these people, including you, who don't even agree with what it's saying. It's saying it shouldn't be used for shock value in video games and you cheer on an example of it that happened right before it, like idiots.

That isn't what it is saying either. And there doesn't have to be general consensus on a work for it to have worth.

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Feels Villeneuve
Oct 7, 2007

Kanye West - Touch the Sky


Trainmonk posted:

You're missing the point entirely, over and over. The commentary is worthless because it doesn't even work. Look at all these people, including you, who don't even agree with what it's saying.

once again, it's germane that nobody has the knowledge of the full context of that scene.

not to mention that lack of consensus about meaning is not indicative of the effectiveness of any given work.

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