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Babe Magnet posted:As long as you don't press buttons to perform the rape (the whole part is in a cutscene, you don't actually perform Rape Combos), I don't see what the difference is between it being in a game and it being in a movie or a book. Regardless of whether or not you're advocating it by using it, you used it and it has the same negative effect as an advocated use.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:06
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Babe Magnet posted:Also I wasn't excusing the rape because you murder people, but I'll give you the point that adding that last bit was a miss-step. I don't feel like it diminished my main point, however, that trashing the act of adding shock-rape to a narrative does mean you are advocating the use of shock-rape in your narrative. Yeah, but is it arguable that the game won't necessarily fall into the trap of "war movies showing the horror of war end up glorifying war"? It's not law, precedent isn't king.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:07
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Fag Boy Jim posted:once again, it's germane that nobody has the knowledge of the full context of that scene. Once again, it shouldn't even be there so who cares if I know exactly what it means.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:07
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Trainmonk posted:Once again, it shouldn't even be there so who cares if I know exactly what it means. that's impossible to say without knowing how the scene fits in context, come off it.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:08
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Fag Boy Jim posted:that's impossible to say without knowing how the scene fits in context, come off it. It's not impossible to say. Rape commentary doesn't belong in video games.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:09
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Trainmonk posted:It's not impossible to say. Rape commentary doesn't belong in video games. Why not? This game isn't Mario.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:09
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Hotline Miami 1 made me feel really gross and uncomfortable as I played it. It looks like this game will make me feel even more gross. If this is just the tutorial, I'm kinda afraid yet curious what other lines it could cross.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:10
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I really wish they had just skipped adding this stupid poo poo in the first place, so the thread could have more discussion about how rad it'll be to flail some gangsters to death with chains such. 
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Aug 15, 2013 20:11
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Miltank posted:Why not? This game isn't Mario. Rape commentary isn't just any commentary. Rape commentary has victims. e: Victims OF IT I mean. It hurts people.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:11
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You don't play the rape part. It's literally 10 seconds, maybe, of a non-interactive cutscene. Why does it being in a videogame matter? Are videogames not allowed to have as heavy themes as movies or books? As for: toasterwarrior posted:Yeah, but is it arguable that the game won't necessarily fall into the trap of "war movies showing the horror of war end up glorifying war"? It's not law, precedent isn't king. You said it yourself, precedent isn't king. My belief that it's not going to fall into the trap is just as valid as your belief that it is.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:12
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Trainmonk posted:You're missing the point entirely, over and over. The commentary is worthless because it doesn't even work. Look at all these people, including you, who don't even agree with what it's saying. It's saying it shouldn't be used for shock value in video games and you cheer on an example of it that happened right before it, like idiots. Well that is what a parody is ain't it? The over the top imitation of the actual act is what gets the point across.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:13
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Mutation posted:Hotline Miami 1 made me feel really gross and uncomfortable as I played it. yeah, I mean, frankly, this game looks to be extraordinarily provocative, and disgust and hatred are perfectly reasonable responses to provocation- Despite kinda getting what they're going for, I really hate Straw Dogs and say, Lars Von Trier films, for instance. what I'm against is the pointless dogmatism based on preview footage and interviews. Jason Rohrer's The Castle Doctrine has had similar problems with people discussing the game's politics without even playing it.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:13
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Babe Magnet posted:You don't play the rape part. It's literally 10 seconds, maybe, of a non-interactive cutscene. Why does it being in a videogame matter? Are videogames not allowed to have as heavy themes as movies or books? Yeah but that doesn't matter because the article that spawned this discussion clearly shows how affected someone was by what little happened. Do you think a rape victim can be triggered less than fully? Also I don't even see much of an argument for why rape should be in movies or books either, because it's not like it can be tastefully done.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:14
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voltron lion force posted:Well that is what a parody is ain't it? The over the top imitation of the actual act is what gets the point across. Parody does not automatically make itself valid. Also most parodies don't actually hurt innocent people.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:15
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Cactus has no qualms with shocking people, and Hotline Miami 2 already seems like it's going the self-aware route. Two of the storylines are about a movie being based on HL1, and a gang that was inspired by the events of HL1, right? Do you think that this is going to be some sort of uncomfortable commentary on the level of "You're all horrible for liking this kind of stuff"?
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Aug 15, 2013 20:15
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Babe Magnet posted:You said it yourself, precedent isn't king. My belief that it's not going to fall into the trap is just as valid as your belief that it is. I don't actually think it's going to fall into the trap either; but I guess I mis-read your initial post so my bad. Just wanted to clear things up since the thread is moving in a flurry of posts, sorry.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:15
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voltron lion force posted:Well that is what a parody is ain't it? The over the top imitation of the actual act is what gets the point across. I don't think it's a parody, and it's very weak if it is- I'm against the idea that pointing out a problem in your game constitutes commentary. the most interesting interpretation so far is that it's a grotesque mutation of the first game- pressing a button to inflict violence, but twisted even further into something disgusting. I know the plot somehow involves copycat killers of the first game's protagonist, which seems like it might tie into that theme.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:16
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Trainmonk posted:Rape commentary isn't just any commentary. Rape commentary has victims. So do war movies honestly. I know it is by know means a 1-1 comparison, but there is tons of media that can potentially trigger PTSD in victims.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:16
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Cool thread about a cool game ruined by stupid rape talk thanks a lot games.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:17
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Mutation posted:Cactus has no qualms with shocking people, and Hotline Miami 2 already seems like it's going the self-aware route. Two of the storylines are about a movie being based on HL1, and a gang that was inspired by the events of HL1, right? Do you think that this is going to be some sort of uncomfortable commentary on the level of "You're all horrible for liking this kind of stuff"? I'd be surprised, because the theme of HL1 didn't seem to be "You're terrible for liking these sorts of games"- in fact, it didn't seem to be didactic at all.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:17
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Miltank posted:So do war movies honestly. I know it is by know means a 1-1 comparison, but there is tons of media that can potentially trigger PTSD in victims. Maybe we shouldn't have those either then? I don't know what you're trying to tell me here.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:17
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In HM1, if you kill the employees after defeating Biker, does the game ever call you out on that?
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Aug 15, 2013 20:17
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Parachute posted:In HM1, if you kill the employees after defeating Biker, does the game ever call you out on that? Nah, it doesn't. Also, I think you meant before defeating Jacket as Biker.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:18
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Babe Magnet posted:You don't play the rape part. It's literally 10 seconds, maybe, of a non-interactive cutscene. Why does it being in a videogame matter? It's like when you beat Bowzer and
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Aug 15, 2013 20:19
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moths posted:It's like when you beat Bowzer and Its like pressing the button to jump on a goomba and then mario takes off his pants.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:20
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Trainmonk posted:Yeah but that doesn't matter because the article that spawned this discussion clearly shows how affected someone was by what little happened. Do you think a rape victim can be triggered less than fully? Rape commentary should be allowed in anything that wants to put it in, because censorship kills creative works, and even if I agreed with you that it couldn't be handled maturely, I wouldn't agree that completely shutting down any discussion of it would be any better. This does not mean I think people should be immune to the consequences of their actions just becuase they say it's a work of art. If some shithead wants to add rape completely out of context to a work of theirs for shock value or anything like that, than they deserve any backlash they get, and if the Hotline Miami devs sink because they mentioned rape in their game, than so be it, they went into this project knowing full-well what kind of reception they could get. As for being triggered by rape in a game, that sucks pretty hard, but it's well within the developer's rights to put whatever they want in their game. yourafagpleasedie posted:Cool thread about a cool game ruined by stupid rape talk thanks a lot games. In any other thread I would agree with you, but this subject is specifically broached by the creators of the game, and subject matter within the game itself. Give it a few days to pass, like it did at the end of the Hotline Miami thread and the first two times in the first version of this thread. E: Finally we're on the same page. VVV Babe Magnet fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Aug 15, 2013 |
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Aug 15, 2013 20:21
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Babe Magnet posted:Rape commentary should be allowed in anything that wants to put it in, because censorship kills creative works, and even if I agreed with you that it couldn't be handled maturely, I wouldn't agree that completely shutting down any discussion of it would be any better. This does not mean I think people should be immune to the consequences of their actions just becuase they say it's a work of art. If some shithead wants to add rape completely out of context to a work of theirs for shock value or anything like that, than they deserve any backlash they get, and if the Hotline Miami devs sink because they mentioned rape in their game, than so be it, they went into this project knowing full-well what kind of reception they could get. Yep, do whatever you want. Be as terrible a person as you want to be, and be wrong about everything you do. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 15, 2013 20:22
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Mutation posted:Do you think that this is going to be some sort of uncomfortable commentary on the level of "You're all horrible for liking this kind of stuff"? Considering the point of the first game was "it's okay to enjoy this, as it is not real" it seems like the sequel is going to stretch that idea as far as possible. quote:Also I don't even see much of an argument for why rape should be in movies or books either, because it's not like it can be tastefully done. Do you really think not talking about rape will improve anything? Will ignoring it change rape culture for the better?
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Aug 15, 2013 20:25
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RBA Starblade posted:Do you really think not talking about rape will improve anything? Will ignoring it change rape culture for the better? Nope, I don't think that and I never implied anything close to thinking that. I don't know why you think I believe that, because having a bunch of rapes in books or videogames or movies is nothing like actually discussing rape.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:28
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Yeah, it one thing to think that rape commentary should be allowed, but it is in no way a discussion. Bringing your opinion into the matter won't actively change or develop the way the scene plays out.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:32
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Trainmonk posted:Nope, I don't think that and I never implied anything close to thinking that. I don't know why you think I believe that, because having a bunch of rapes in books or videogames or movies is nothing like actually discussing rape. Media is really, really good at starting discussions and spreading awareness of an issue, discussions that can't start if you never bring it up and pretend it isn't there.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:32
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RBA Starblade posted:Media is really, really good at starting discussions and spreading awareness of an issue, discussions that can't start if you never bring it up and pretend it isn't there. What they're really, really good at is normalizing rape and artificially darkening their writing of a character. What actual people are good at is discussing it, and they do it often with no help from movie rape #3059.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:36
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I think a lot of you are missing the point. I believe its already established that yes, the player character does things to make you feel uncomfortable and no, you don't like hurting people. You might like the rush and the fun and the powertrip at times but the extreme violence is meant to be offputting. Making your character a rapist is certainly one way of making them offputting. But I think the issue here isn't that rape is being depicted. Its the fact that of the few women we've seen in the series, they're just helpless damsels and pawns and stereotypes. The first is kidnapped by Jacket and seems weirdly compliant to being abducted by a serial killer. She is later killed just to give Jacket a revenge plotline. The second woman is just your cheesy femme-fatale for the real russian mob boss. Now the latest woman we've seen in the series and her role is to be the rape victim to pig butcher. Ellison's statement is Cara Ellison posted:The woman in this game was exoticised by her tokenism. No male character in this scenario was singled out for rape. Maybe if women too got to be serial killer or nameless goons or evil mastermind, it could slide. Right now the depiction of women in the series is objectively, poo poo.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:40
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Trainmonk posted:What they're really, really good at is normalizing rape and artificially darkening their writing of a character. What actual people are good at is discussing it, and they do it often with no help from movie rape #3059. So you don't think removing commentary and mention of rape isn't going to just perpetuate that culture too? You said rape commentary shouldn't be written about because it can trigger people and because, in works of fiction, it can't be done tastefully (obviously). Short of news articles saying "this person was raped" I don't see what that leaves, and I don't see how that can trigger much discussion or change, especially in areas like that shithole town in Ohio that was on the news recently. RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Aug 15, 2013 |
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Aug 15, 2013 20:41
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^^^ Said better than I could.Trainmonk posted:What they're really, really good at is normalizing rape and artificially darkening their writing of a character. What actual people are good at is discussing it, and they do it often with no help from movie rape #3059. Were we talking about rape in this thread before the game brought it up? No. But it has now made us talk about it. Making us talk about it is probably the whole point. Theodyn fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Aug 15, 2013 |
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Aug 15, 2013 20:42
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RBA Starblade posted:So you don't think removing commentary and mention of rape isn't going to just perpetuate that culture too? You said rape commentary shouldn't be written about because it can trigger people and because, in works of fiction, it can't be done tastefully. Short of news articles saying "this person was raped" I don't see what that leaves, and I don't see how that can trigger much discussion or change, especially in areas like that shithole town in Ohio that was on the news recently. I don't want to talk to you anymore.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:45
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Theodyn posted:Were we talking about rape in this thread before the game brought it up? No. But it has now made us talk about it. We, or I, am talking about what a piece of poo poo cactus or whoever is for doing this.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:46
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Holepunchio posted:[re: the treatment of women in HLM] I don't know, I always thought it was interesting that Jacketman never seemed to actually give a poo poo about the woman he rescued, yet went off on a revenge mission anyway because that's like, what men in violence-driven media are supposed to do. excerpt from a longer post in CineD: SubG posted:...The treatment of women is also surprisingly similar. It's slightly problematic in that I think both works otherise women by trying to place them outside the violence-as-fetish/violence-as-anathema dialectic in this sort of violent `guy' fiction, but I think their heart is in the right place; the men in these works aren't so much interacting with women, but rather the illusion of women conjured as required by their violence-driven inner narratives. Feels Villeneuve fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Aug 15, 2013 |
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Aug 15, 2013 20:46
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I'm not sure about that either: everyone in the series thus far is basically a flat character thanks to how minimalist (or deliberately obfuscating, in the case of the janitors) the treatment of their personalities are. Jacket is an insane serial killer, Biker is an unrepentant lover of violence but is sane enough to know something's up...that's it really. If it's a question of representation in agency, then yeah, sure; but as it is you could gender-swap everyone and it would still play out the same.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:48
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If you think that a butcher in a pig mask shooting a women in the gut and then raping her is normalizing rape you are dead wrong. If anything these depictions of rape are dangerous because they otherize the rapist too strongly. The vast majority of rapists know their victims personally.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:52
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