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Sydin posted:Wouldn't recommended it as a beginner move, though. Would be interesting in an alt-history going completely off the rails kind of way, though, and the rest of Japan is going to want you dead anyway sooner or later...
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Aug 12, 2014 18:39
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Sydin posted:But if you do survive? You become an unstoppable naval power with advanced gunpowder units long before anybody else does, with a economic research bonus and agents that can constantly keep enemy clans occupied with province revolts. It's an interesting mechanic and makes for a very high energy game. Wouldn't recommended it as a beginner move, though. I see a lot of "Survive the first 20 or so turns, then stomp over Japan." mentioned, but can shalcar or any of the other veterans here explain how to survive the massive rush of disloyalty, revolts, and clown-car dog pile from the rest of Japan? I want to give it a shot, but all this mention of the murderous 20 turn me off from it.
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Aug 12, 2014 18:45
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It's not difficult. Shogun 2 isn't a hard game so just dive into it if you actually want to. You get a ever rising bar telling your pretty much exactly when the realm divide is coming, if you wanted to then you could just prepare for as many turns as you needed and build you a advanced army to stomp the entirety of Japan with. I have never lost a game of Shogun 2 and it was basically my first Total War since i was too young to understand how to play Medieval 2 when it came out. Every battle can be easily managed if you understand that you are probably gonna need to flank with something, so for a very basic strategy: Have something that soak up damage and die for the cause in the middle of your ranks and then have something fast to the extreme left and right, pile everything on from as many sides as possible and add arrows if you are feeling frisky.
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Aug 12, 2014 20:26
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Vaga42Bond posted:I see a lot of "Survive the first 20 or so turns, then stomp over Japan." mentioned, but can shalcar or any of the other veterans here explain how to survive the massive rush of disloyalty, revolts, and clown-car dog pile from the rest of Japan? I want to give it a shot, but all this mention of the murderous 20 turn me off from it. It's easier to do if you are doing it early while you are small. Your starting provinces are probably going to be pretty loyal anyway, and you can park sufficient numbers of Yari Ashigaru in provinces to (a) deter attackers and (b) prevent revolts on the rest. Cut your tax rate and exempt a few places from taxation if you have to. If you are starting in the far west, the easiest way to go Christian is to invade the Otomo, capture the province with a Nanban quarter, and then do to the switch. You'd start with at least one loyal christian population, the quarter and any existing christian buildings would spread christianity into you, and you don't have to spend time constructing some crap. Religious differences debuff to relations aren't as big as a realm divide, and it doesn't grow. Close allies will remain loyal. Other AIs will have better things to do than trek across Japan to fight you. If you control the trade nodes, you can generally bribe people into being friendly.
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Aug 12, 2014 20:44
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Vaga42Bond posted:I see a lot of "Survive the first 20 or so turns, then stomp over Japan." mentioned, but can shalcar or any of the other veterans here explain how to survive the massive rush of disloyalty, revolts, and clown-car dog pile from the rest of Japan? I want to give it a shot, but all this mention of the murderous 20 turn me off from it. Since I was already talking about this anyway, I'll just completely step on shalcar's toes here and make a Christianity Effort PostTM. How do I go Christian? Unless you're the Otomo, you will start as a Buddhist clan, and thus need to convert to Christianity. An event pop up at some point informing you that Nanban traders have arrived at your doorstep, and would like to trade. This event hits Kyushu clans first, then ripples out Eastward overtime. So Shimazu players will get this event within the first 10-20 turns, while Hojo players may not see it until after Realm Divide. You can accept or decline the proposal: declining just postpones the event firing again, while accepting provides you with one free imported matchlock ashigaru, and opens the option to build a Nanban Trade Port.  The Nanban Trade Port is built in lieu of the normal Military Port. The Nanban Port provides much better economic bonuses but with a military trade-off: two sea trade routes over the Military Port's one, 10 growth per turn vs 2, and +120 to trade good exports vs +80. However it retains only having one recruitment slot, while the Military Port gives you an extra recruitment slot. Finally, the Nanban Trade Port spreads Christianity in the province it is build: at +4 a turn. This is fairly substantial (Temples wouldn't be able to offset this alone until the level three Temple Complex) and if you're not planning on going Christian is probably a deal breaker. Once you've built the Nanban Port, you can convert to Christianity at any time in your family tree window. Note that you can only convert religions once per Daimyo.  Once you've clicked that button, you're Christian: with all the good and bad attached. So what's the bad? 1. Your Damiyo will immediately take a -2 honor hit for converting to Christianity. This means that all your Generals & Sons will take a -2 to loyalty as well, which is something to be aware of. This can be mitigated by having higher honor to start before turning, but if you don't then also be aware every province you own gets -1 public order for having two honor, and -2 for having one. 2. You will immediately take a -40 diplomatic hit to every clan that is not Christian (which is probably most if not all of them). This can be quite ugly, and can easily be the tipping point for having indifferent neighbors declare war. It is worth noting that if there are other Christian clans around, you will get a +50 bonus with them for "Same Religion", which isn't too shabby and can earn you a stalwart ally for the trying times ahead. 3. You immediately lose all your monk agents. Not that you probably wanted them around anymore, but hey.  4. You immediately lose any warrior monks you have recruited, lose the ability to produce any more (even if you already have the buildings up) and can no longer build any of the temple chain buildings. 5. Religious Unrest Religious Unrest? Yeah. Anyone who's played a central Japan clan are probably familiar with the mechanic, since you inevitably bump into the Ikko and they start handing out copies of The Communist Manifesto to anybody who'll take them.  It basically works like this: each province has a breakdown of what percentage of its population is following what religion. If the vast majority (+90%) are following the same religion as your clan, then everything is good. But when they aren't, you start to get penalties to public order based on the difference. So a Buddhist clan with a province that is 80/20 Buddhist/Christian might get one civil unrest, while having a 20/80 Buddhist/Christian province would give -10 or -12. The highest the penalty can go is -12. It should also be noted that religious unrest only increases or decreases at at one point per turn. That means if a Buddhist clan capture a province that is 100% Ikko, the next turn they will get -1 religious differences, then -2 the next turn, and so on until they hit the maximum. So why does this matter? Because the second you flip Christian, there's a solid chance that all of your provinces sans the one you build the Nanban Port in are at 100% Buddhist. This means within twelve turns, you're going to have a -12 unrest penalty in almost every province you own. You can convert them, and Christians convert much faster than Buddhist clans, but it will still take 10-20 turns to normalize. As such, your options are limited and all draining. You can exempt the majority of your empire from taxes (severely cutting into your bottom line and paralyzing production) or build up a Ashi in all your province to counteract this (which also puts a drain on resources, increases your cost per turn, and caps out at +15 military presence for a 3/4 stack). Compounding this is your need to throw up Churches and pump out missionaries (more on that later) to speed up your own conversion, which is another money drain. However you slice it, your economy is going to be in the tank for a few years as you stabilize the realm. So that's pretty bad. But there have to be some perks, right? Oh baby, are there ever.  1. Access to the church line. This is a building chain that replaces the temple line. Churches fill the same role as temples, but take a look at the differences between the rank two church vs temple.   As you can see, the Mission has a higher conversion rate, spreads more to neighboring provinces, and provides double the Chi research bonus. Churches are essentially temples on steroids. They also allow you to convert Missionaries, the Christian version of the Monk. Mechanically they behave the same in that they can demoralize/inspire armies, incite revolts, inspire towns, and convert agents, all while spreading religion with their mere presence. However much like the church line, missionaries perform better on average than monks, and because of how the revolt mechanic works (success chance being proportional to the religious unrest of the province) missionaries are often looking at 95% success odds at sparking a revolt where a monk would be seeing ~15%. 2. The ability to build one (and only one) Nanban Trade Quarter.   Oh baby. The Quarter provides staggering economic benefit, and growth that's so high it could actually have a noticable effect within a short campaign. It also reduces the recruitment times of imported cannons and imported matchlock ashigaru. However like it's predecessor the Quarter only gets one recruitment slot, which is now two behind the equitable Dry Dock. You won't even care though, because I've saved the best for last:3. Nanban Trade Ships, also known as Caravels.   The caravel is arguably enough of a reason to go Christian all on its own. Built like a brick shithouse and armed to the teeth with cannons, the Nanban Trade Ship is second only to the Black Ship itself in terms of naval dominance. It has deadly accuracy and fast reload, which means a single ship can decimate entire fleets before they even get within range. Aside from capturing the Black Ship, the only cannon armed ship available to non Christian clans is the cannon bune, which is slow, inaccurate, and capped at two per clan. Nanban Trade Ships have no such restriction: you can build as many as you want. The caravels have only two limiting factors: they take four turns to recruit and can only be recruited at the Nanban Quarter, which you can only build one of, meaning it takes time to get several up and running. Secondly they have a steep upkeep at 250 koku per turn, so unless you've got an economy firing on all cylinders you can't pump out too many. Still, 3-4 of these and you will never have to fear at sea again. Oh, and it's worth mentioning that if you're Mori, you get a special version that costs less in upkeep and has further improved stats. Sounds pretty fun. But how do I survive the early stages of conversion? The thing to understand about going Christian is that you are essentially taking an immediate, short term but severe hit, in exchange for long term benefit. You will be at your weakest immediately after conversion, but if you survive you will become an unstoppable wrecking ball. Here are some tips for surviving until then: 1. Prepare in advance. You know that you're going to be in a weak position, and focusing almost solely on defense. End any wars you have going on, redistribute troops to defensive positions, sure up your border provinces. 2. Have some koku saved up. Aside from having to weather the impending economic turmoil, you'll also want to pump out churches to speed up conversion, and churches cost money. Halt production for a few turns and save up. 3. Make room for those churches in advance. Have at least up to Essence of Spirit already researched, since going Christian doesn't reset these techs and you will immediately be able to build up to in the church line where you were in the temple line. Likewise have either empty slots in most towns ready, or have temples that you can tear down and replace. 4. Research economic chi arts while you're converting. As your churches come online, you'll start getting massive bonuses to chi art research. Leverage this into economic techs to help ease the pain religious unrest is putting on you. 5. Immediately build the Nanban Quarter and, if you can afford it, get a caravel or two. If you do get declared on, these can save your hide in fending off invasion fleets. 6. Use your agents! Metsuke are invaluable at times like these to keep repression down in troublesome provinces, or eek out a little extra tax. Ninja can likewise be used to delay invading armies or kill pesky agents trying to steal your generals. 7. Speaking of Generals: got one that's a little too disloyal? Stick him on a boat: agents can't reach him at sea. Obviously you can't plan for everything, but as long as you're guarding your border provinces well and keeping disloyal generals off the frontlines, you'll be okay. I'm pretty much done with converting, I'm Christian now! So what should I do? 1. Use your caravels to wrest control of the sea. Chase off anybody in your waters or raiding your trade routes. Also if you don't control all the trade nodes, you can easily send a stack of trade ships and a single caravel up to whatever trade node you want, chase off what's on it, and take that sweet koku for yourself. The caravel will protect it with ease, and the trade route will be a big economic boon. 2. Slap down a vassal or two. This will help restore your daimyo's honor. Note the vassal will be Buddhist and hate your guts, so you will eventually get stabbed in the back. 3. Send out missionaries to neighboring provinces. Have them sit around for a few turns and spread Christianity. Then incite a revolt. Either the rebels will fail and weaken your enemy for you, or they'll take the province for themselves, which you can then march into and take without declaring on anybody. Note that clans will take note of you causing revolts in their territory and hate you for it.4. Take advantage of your massive chi research buff to expand your economy, which you can turn around and pour into your military might. And that's about it. Go on a rampage. Nothing is going to be able to stop you at this point. The only thing slowing you down is having to convert each province you capture, but you have five missionaries you can cycle through to keep the pace fairly quick. So what about these Otomo guys? The Otomo are functionally similar to other Christian clans, but have enough variation that it is worth nothing. Specifically, there are some differences to be aware of: 1. Otomo start Christian, rather than having to convert. This means they immediately have the ability to build the Nanban Port/Quarter, recruit imported matchlock ashigaru, build churches/missionaries, etc. It also means they don't have to go through the process of turtling while they convert their empire. However there are some trade-offs. While you don't have to take the -2 honor hit from converting, your daimyo starts with a low two honor. You also start straight away with the -40 diplo hit, which can make it hard to get off the ground. 2. Otomo get slightly different techs in the Chi tree to reflect their Christian nature. These replace the Buddhist religion focused techs, though they mostly do the same things. 3. The Otomo get a unique church building chain. It keeps same crazy conversion ability, but trades the hilariously good chi research bonus for a sizable bonus to unit replenishment within the province.  4. You can lease land to the Portugese. This reduces your daimyo's honor by one and takes up a building slot, but in exchange you get 4500 extra province wealth, which is batshit. It's got some bad negatives but great positives. 5. The unique Portugese Terco unit.  These guys are pretty drat good as far as gunpowder units go. Great accuracy and reload, high armor, and an actually decent melee attack, though that is offset by their terrible melee defense and middling morale. the Tercos require some tech, but only Attack by Fire, while almost every other gunpoweder unit requires the much more time consuming Gunpowder Mastery. Sydin fucked around with this message at 00:35 on Aug 13, 2014 |
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Aug 12, 2014 22:25
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Great post. Everyone should try at least one Christian campaign because they are a blast.Sydin posted:Oh, and it's worth mentioning that if you're Mori, you get a special version that costs less in upkeep and has further improved stats. Ok, didn't know that, and considering I was thinking about starting a Mori campaign soon, there's any reason at all to not convert to Christianity as Clan Mori?
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Aug 12, 2014 22:42
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Angry Lobster posted:Ok, didn't know that, and considering I was thinking about starting a Mori campaign soon, there's any reason at all to not convert to Christianity as Clan Mori? Speaking of Mori and Christianity, Shalcar noted in the LP that he's always happy to see the Mori destroyed because they can be a colossal PITA during Realm Divide with their superior ships. Christianity seems like an excellent way to turn the tables.
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Aug 12, 2014 23:06
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Religious unrest actually caps at -12 happiness for 100%/0% Sydin, not -6 like you said. Other than that, a great post.
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Aug 13, 2014 00:24
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Would you look at that, I was quite literally half right. Thanks for that, the post has been updated.
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Aug 13, 2014 00:34
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A few things, the first being that the Otomo get a +3 bonus to conversion per turn, which means that they don't have to build as many churches. The second thing is why haven't I been using nanban trade ships?
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Aug 13, 2014 05:36
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The part about it being a trade ship made me lose it. Here is some poorly defended European merchant vessel that is stronger than any Japanese navy.
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Aug 13, 2014 07:36
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Scalding Coffee posted:The part about it being a trade ship made me lose it. Here is some poorly defended European merchant vessel that is stronger than any Japanese navy. Yeah, though Sydin says they are 'armed to the teeth with cannons' in his post, that's not really true. They have 5 cannons per broadside. Which is loving nothing for real ships. It's just that Japanese naval warfare was like land fighting, only on floating wooden islands that drift at one another and cannons wreck their poo poo so hard. Even with the meager amount of cannons on the nanban ships, they at least have a huge crew, many of which have guns, and kind of a hidden bonus is that the ship is tall. Like the deck the gunners fire off of is way up off the sea and protected by a good wooden wall so that the crew can rain gunfire down on any ship that gets nearby, and still have a 99% arrow proof position to fire from. Despite all that, sea battles are still not fun in shogun 2 and auto calculating a naval fight involving your nanban ship will see it take horrendous losses to crew or hull strength or maybe even outright sink, which is a result that will never happen even in the hands of the worst naval fighter.
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Aug 13, 2014 08:00
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Scalding Coffee posted:The part about it being a trade ship made me lose it. Here is some poorly defended European merchant vessel that is stronger than any Japanese navy. This is completely true. The best way to take down a Nanban Trade Ship is with a stack of Sengoku Bune with their high speed, thin profile and large number of melee troops. Even then, you would have trouble closing to range as the morale effect of cannon is completely devastating. Light Ships lack the manpower to overwhelm the crew, heavy ships will never make it into range. Jade Star posted:Yeah, though Sydin says they are 'armed to the teeth with cannons' in his post, that's not really true. They have 5 cannons per broadside. Which is loving nothing for real ships. It's just that Japanese naval warfare was like land fighting, only on floating wooden islands that drift at one another and cannons wreck their poo poo so hard. Considering it's the second most heavily armed ship in the game (with the most heavily armed being a single capturable event ship, not a recruitable one), "armed to the teeth with cannons" is a pretty legitimate way to describe it. They are some of, if not the most deadly player recruitable ships in the game. The fact that it's not comparable to say, a frigate, is irrelevant when we are discussing Shogun 2. Jade Star posted:Despite all that, sea battles are still not fun in shogun 2 and auto calculating a naval fight involving your nanban ship will see it take horrendous losses to crew or hull strength or maybe even outright sink, which is a result that will never happen even in the hands of the worst naval fighter. I disagree with your assessment that naval battles are not fun. Naval battles are perfectly enjoyable. Some aspects of naval management are less than ideal, such as the million baby enemy fleets once you have crushed all the big fleets, but even that can be kept under control if you adjust your forces accordingly. The Autoresolve does heavily underpower cannon armed ships (and land based fortifications while we are talking about it) and so if you do rely on the single best naval power for koku unit in the game then you will need to fight every battle. If you don't, you can just as easily use ships which are hugely overvalued in autoresolve and take minimal losses (such as the Heavy Bune) at only marginally greater overall fleet cost. You just put 9 Trade Ships and a single Nanban Trade Ship on your trade nodes and never worry about protecting them ever again (and the AI won't attack it because it hugely overvalues Trade Ships in autoresolve as well).
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Aug 13, 2014 11:02
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shalcar posted:Considering it's the second most heavily armed ship in the game (with the most heavily armed being a single capturable event ship, not a recruitable one), "armed to the teeth with cannons" is a pretty legitimate way to describe it. They are some of, if not the most deadly player recruitable ships in the game. The fact that it's not comparable to say, a frigate, is irrelevant when we are discussing Shogun 2. It's sort of like how, when it comes to Fall of the Samurai, the naval action is so small-scale that a frigate counts as very powerful and the majority of your navy will be made up of tiny undergunned corvettes. But, since they're the standard, the fact that they're not powerful ships doesn't matter; in context, they're important and powerful.
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Aug 13, 2014 11:10
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So, the Black Ship mentioned before is just a regular combat ship of a Western fleet? Talk about out-of-context problems...
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Aug 13, 2014 11:18
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It's almost exactly the sort of thing that Iain Banks came up with the term 'outside context problem' to describe (the specific example he was thinking of was a battleship showing up in Civilization while you're still using sailing ships).
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Aug 13, 2014 11:20
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Which actually happens all the time as the game waits till really late to replace your trade cogs with container ships
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Aug 13, 2014 11:26
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my dad posted:So, the Black Ship mentioned before is just a regular combat ship of a Western fleet? It isn't even a combat vessel, but it is a long range trading ship that carries high value cargo, so she has 24 cannons, a reinforced hull to remain seaworthy after damage and a crew compliment of roughly 250 sailors. The Black Ship is a formidable fighting vessel equivalent in firepower to a Frigate of the time.
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Aug 13, 2014 11:34
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my dad posted:So, the Black Ship mentioned before is just a regular combat ship of a Western fleet?
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Aug 13, 2014 18:31
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So, Steam has Fall on sale this week. Is it as good as Rise? I thought Rise was noticeably better than vanilla.
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Aug 13, 2014 22:53
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Fall is pretty fun, but I barely touched Empire (like 20 hours maybe) so I always forget that putting my general so close to my lines is a bad idea. Today I nearly got my Daimyo and top general killed because they were just sitting behind while all my line infantry were shooting at the others.
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Aug 13, 2014 22:57
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BurningStone posted:So, Steam has Fall on sale this week. Is it as good as Rise? I thought Rise was noticeably better than vanilla. Fall is arguably the weakest of the three, but is balanced like a traditional strategy game where more advanced units are flat out better as was true in the actual Boshin War as well. It's well worth playing, though.
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Aug 14, 2014 03:28
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I think I enjoyed Fall the most of the three (although it's a close-run thing). It's the most spectacle-oriented one and I really like how they made use of the setting. It's got more in common with standard Shogun 2 (which would be my number 2 among the campaigns) in that it's set in a time of dramatic technological change and cultural conflict, which I think makes for the best Total War games. I prefer how Realm Divide works in Fall as well, especially the way it adds an extra republican path alongside the Shogunate/Imperial dichotomy. The one thing I'll say is that it's very obviously not as well-balanced as Shogun 2 or Rise, but I still found it to be a reasonable challenge and the battles are a ton of fun.
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Aug 14, 2014 09:20
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shalcar posted:Fall is arguably the weakest of the three, but is balanced like a traditional strategy game where more advanced units are flat out better as was true in the actual Boshin War as well. While this is true, I find the game pretty unique in the time period it represents, so if anyone is looking for "Shogun, with a twist", Fall may be better than Rise.
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Aug 14, 2014 10:20
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Fat Samurai posted:While this is true, I find the game pretty unique in the time period it represents, so if anyone is looking for "Shogun, with a twist", Fall may be better than Rise. Oh, absolutely. If you are interested in the time period you would be doing yourself a disservice to not pick it up. I didn't mean to suggest I thought the game itself was anything less than incredibly fun.
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Aug 14, 2014 10:52
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John Charity Spring posted:The one thing I'll say is that it's very obviously not as well-balanced as Shogun 2 or Rise, but I still found it to be a reasonable challenge and the battles are a ton of fun. Rise was specifically made to be the most balanced of the three. It was essentially CA making the design as tight as possible. Fall is the opposite: it is intentionally unbalanced. This is because it is attempting to emulate the technological arms race to the top that was the age of imperialism. Whereas in vanilla Ashigaru & basic samurai can, when properly used, still put up a fight against the highest tier units, the higher techs in Fall shift the whole paradigm of battle. Your old wooden hull ships will get blown out of the water by Ironclads and iron plated frigates without any trouble, and the starting units will melt instantly against cannons or infantry carrying breech-loading rifles. BurningStone posted:So, Steam has Fall on sale this week. Is it as good as Rise? I thought Rise was noticeably better than vanilla. Fall is a blast, but it is a much greater leap away from vanilla than Rise was. As such it can be a little off putting at first. Once you get a grasp on the combat though you'll realize it's what Empire and Napolean TW should have been. The engine handles these kinds of battles really well too, because it's the engine originally built for Empire TW. I also find I enjoy naval combat the most in Fall, mostly because if you get to a certain technological advantage above your enemies it becomes hilariously one-sided. It never gets old watching the HMS Warrior pump 26 cannons worth of advanced armor piercing shells into wooden ships and watching their engines explode.
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Aug 14, 2014 15:20
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Maybe it's because I'm playing on normal but softening up your target with naval support (campaign and battlewise) before taking on obviously superior troops helps a lot. Oh, and veterancy. I'm in RD and still rolling mainly with Line Infantry but they're practically max rank because of a nearly max rank foreign veteran training them in town/on the go. And the AI is too dumb that you can swing some carbine cav around and shoot them from behind. Also just loving shell them to hell and back. Also I really should just invest in ferrying my gun pieces separate by boat just along the coast or something of my marching army because they really slow you down. And my allies are too dumb to build railroads.
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Aug 14, 2014 17:19
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Sober posted:Also just loving shell them to hell and back. This is actually a 100% guaranteed way to victory in Fall. 
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Aug 14, 2014 17:41
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I went ahead an got Fall.... Now shalcar, you're going to do a Fall LP so I can learn to play it, right? 
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Aug 14, 2014 23:10
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BurningStone posted:I went ahead an got Fall.... Now shalcar, you're going to do a Fall LP so I can learn to play it, right? Echoing this sentiment.
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Aug 15, 2014 01:43
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In multiplayer, I remember fighting against Rise and vanilla armies with Fall units. How did that work? I remembered winning most of the time, but I don't recall just melting people.
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Aug 15, 2014 02:27
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Monocled Falcon posted:In multiplayer, I remember fighting against Rise and vanilla armies with Fall units. How did that work? I remembered winning most of the time, but I don't recall just melting people. I believe Fall units cost a lot more to balance that out. Gunpowder units were generally terrible in melee too and, for me, it was a matter of surviving the morale shock of being shot at before reaching melee combat.
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Aug 15, 2014 02:47
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I love playing fall and having my cannons blow the hell out of my enemies. I have a problem though, I care to much about the dumb fake pixel men and can't stand declaring war on friendly clans even if they just got in my way and stole all the territory I was going to expand to.
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Aug 15, 2014 06:56
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Jobbo_Fett posted:I believe Fall units cost a lot more to balance that out. Gunpowder units were generally terrible in melee too and, for me, it was a matter of surviving the morale shock of being shot at before reaching melee combat. When I played Fall multiplayer, I liked to run melee heavy armies sometimes. The way to win versus gunpowder units is to manage lines of sight very carefully and to always maintain a cavalry advantage. Having the cavalry advantage means that you can make the enemy's guns face in different directions, diluting the volume of fire towards your eventual melee charge, and once you commit to the charge the cavalry can hit them from the side or behind. The closer you can get your melee guys while staying out of the line of fire, the better. Once you actually get into melee combat the dedicated melee troops will win hands down (unless it's some lopsided matchup like levy spears up against US marines) Most battles I fought like this were basically decided by the cavalry engagement at the start of the battle.
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Aug 15, 2014 10:07
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When I played Fall multiplayer, I just made a bunch of cavalry and rammed them into things. It was about 50/50.
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Aug 15, 2014 11:32
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zephyr42 posted:I love playing fall and having my cannons blow the hell out of my enemies. I have a problem though, I care to much about the dumb fake pixel men and can't stand declaring war on friendly clans even if they just got in my way and stole all the territory I was going to expand to. I actually did this in my current campaign. because the AI is dumb as poo poo and wouldn't build a railway connection in their province, so I kept inciting revolts until one of them took the town. Funny story, really. Wish I took pictures and poo poo. It worked, except I didn't have any army close enough so I had to also send Shinobi to sabotage friendly armies from preventing them from laying siege to the rebel-controlled city. I literally had to stop an army right at the foot of the city for 2, 3 turns to get my army in place This is more or less the trick post-Realm Divide when everyone is behind you. Before then you are kinda alright to just declare war, just be careful who is allied with who at the time when you do though.
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Aug 15, 2014 17:21
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It is sorta funny that in terms of gameplay, Shogun shits over the entire idea of samurai honour in this period, accepting only the usefulness of the appearance of honour in keeping peasants happy, and rivals unaware.
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Aug 15, 2014 18:05
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Fangz posted:It is sorta funny that in terms of gameplay, Shogun shits over the entire idea of samurai honour in this period, accepting only the usefulness of the appearance of honour in keeping peasants happy, and rivals unaware. It's always been like that though, this time period or another, and even half way across the world. Chivalry was Europe's version of it and that wasn't any better. The idea that nobles behaved in enlightened and dignified behavior while they were medieval murder machines on a battlefield and treated lesser's like complete poo poo.
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Aug 15, 2014 18:18
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Fangz posted:It is sorta funny that in terms of gameplay, Shogun shits over the entire idea of samurai honour in this period, accepting only the usefulness of the appearance of honour in keeping peasants happy, and rivals unaware.
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Aug 15, 2014 18:25
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Sleep of Bronze posted:Like European knights and their chivalry, or essentially any other warrior classes/cultures with a supposed code of honour, the samurai class had done more than enough enough making GBS threads over that in the name of greed and/or pragmatism before CA got near it. Most people can't live up to those kinds of high ideals in the first place, never mind when you combine it with handing them power on the basis of blood and also expect them to risk their lives on the battlefield for a job. This why I find all the mods that give samurai 100 morale or whatever because "samurai lived by the code of bushido, and thus never fled from battle  " so funny. They're human just like anyone else, and strict warrior codes were always much more an ideal than reality.
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Aug 15, 2014 18:36
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