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This is actually the second thread, made in preparation for the impending movie releases.
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Jul 15, 2013 21:38
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I thought it was a pretty solid analysis with a few insights I hadn't considered before. I think he overdid it by saying it was specifically Kyoko's father and Kyosuke that destroyed Kyoko and Sayaka respectively (I don't see how Kyosuke treated her like trash, but he definitely did not give her her due respect), but I see where he's coming from. He didn't even touch on Mami though, no idea why. 
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Jul 26, 2013 15:13
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Insurrectionist posted:Eh, I kind of agree on Kyousuke. I mean, I don't think there was anything wrong with him not returning her feelings or dating Hitomi or that stuff, but even if you just look at him as a friend he treats her like poo poo. Smashing the MP3 (admittedly understandable), hardly seeming to appreciate her visits in general, checking out without telling her, etc. I wouldn't really call that treating her like poo poo though. He just didn't recognize any of what she'd done for him, which is still far better than actively being a dick. Most likely Kyosuke's ignorance was the final nail in the coffin for her sanity, but the incident on the train was the catalyst for her demise.
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Jul 26, 2013 16:49
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Paracelsus posted:He is the usual gender-neutral term in English, though, and nothing explicitly signifies Kyuubey as female so the only reason to use "she" is having a female VA. Kyuubey came across as un-gendered to me, being a Lovecraftian entity whose perspective is mostly orthogonal to humanity's. And it's not like there aren't prominent examples of female guide animals; Luna from Sailor Moon is the first that comes to mind. In any event, none of that is the text itself, it's people talking about the text. Yea, he's definitely gender neutral. There's no way that he(it, technically) can exist as part of a species where emotions don't exist and have genders. We, as humans, refer to him as a male since we need to apply some concept of gender in order to comprehend him as a character. Even in stories where inanimate objects are used as characters (Pixar's Cars for an example) we generally assign a gender to each character, despite inanimate objects having no inherent gender. RH definitely tried to push the idea of a patriarchy and made a couple baseless assumptions. The evil bunny cat is definitely not the analogy he wants it to be.
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Jul 26, 2013 19:11
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Namtab posted:Why not? Pretty sure you can have a gender without having emotions. The whole point of gender, for mammals, is sexual relations for reproduction. That kinda requires emotion for both sides to want to do it in the first place. On the other hand, evil bunny cat is a clone and has no understanding of emotion whatsoever. Even if there are technical genders within his species, they don't mean anything.
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Jul 26, 2013 19:37
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:The hell are you talking about? Evil bunny cat is not a plant. As far as we can tell he's either a mammal or something entirely artificial. As far as mammals go, gender doesn't mean much without emotion. You could argue that people can reproduce without any emotional input, but couldn't instinct be considered a fundamental emotion? In that case the fact that mammals feel the need to mate requires the concept of emotion. Ultimately, my point is that within the story's context it isn't clear whether or not he has a gender, but even if he does it doesn't really play into the plot in any way. RH is making the assumption that he's a male in order to support his perspective. Tuxedo Catfish posted:Kyubey is (indirectly, incidentally) patriarchal because he's associated with the most stifling and mechanical aspects of Japanese society/education, which also happens to be kinda sexist. He doesn't need to be male for that, but it's an easy association to make. I guess he could be interpreted that way. That's a far better interpretation than assuming he's male.
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Jul 26, 2013 19:58
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Silver2195 posted:I agree that Urobuchi's politics are considerably less radical than Requires Hate's. "The unique source" isn't the same as "a source", though; I think you can see feminist themes in Madoka without denying all other themes. He definitely has a point and there were some feminist elements to the story, but I think RH was over exaggerating it. At the end of the day, his point about Madoka being an embracing of the genre is ultimately what matters most.
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Jul 27, 2013 03:08
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Mercrom posted:I disagree with a feminist interpretation of the show for several reasons. First of all, a show featuring 14 year old girls aimed at a target group of adult men is probably not the best delivery vehicle for such a story. It is about female characters, but the reason it is about female characters is arguably unlikely to be for the benefit of any woman. I don't buy the death of the author thing because whether you like it or not context always matters, and to ignore context is to be willfully ignorant. It can be good to be willfully ignorant when enjoying a story, but not when discussing it's social and cultural meaning. It's a magical girl show. I don't know what your expecting, but this is supposed to be a magical girl show. If you want to take context into account, that is your number 1 point of context. Secondly, the story was written with the magical girl genre as a basis, so saying it isn't the best delivery vehicle is just dumb. Thirdly, how are any of those points mentioned in this paragraph reasons why a feminist interpenetration doesn't fit? Mercrom posted:Secondly, Kyubey isn't evil, the universe is. Kyubey is alive at the end of the show because unlike the patriarchy Kyubey shouldn't be destroyed. When faced with a hypothetical Worst Thing, absolutely any means to stop it are kinda by definition acceptable, and I think that it can be argued that the heat death of the universe is the Worst Thing, which would mean Kyubey is completely justified, and probably the best hope all life had until Madoka came along and provided a better alternative. Madoka's victory is not against Kyubey, it is against the harsh nature of reality itself. If you really want you can relate this to the progress of feminism against the patriarchy, but that is only because of the part of Madoka that represents progress itself. I don't understand your logic. The universe is evil because his(its) species engineered it to be and the bunnycat, along with, I assume, the rest of the Incubators in the world, supposing there are any others, is facilitating the continuation of this evil universe that its species engineered. Its like coming into power in an unfavorable dictatorship and doing jack poo poo to create a better government. It makes you no less evil than the origin of the evil. Madoka is the revolutionary that storms the castle, tears the country to pieces, and then entirely rebuilds it. However, she rebuilds into a more favorable dictatorship in such a way that the country's structure is visibly unchanged and Kyubey remains its "leader". Kyubey is considered evil because he wholeheartedly accepted the evil structure of the universe and never sought a way to change it. Having said all that, Kyubey is only evil from a human perspective. Considering that Kyubey has no subjective concept of emotion, there's no way for him(it) to understand the concept of morality since he(it) has no sense of shame. His(its) entire being is nothing more than logic and reasoning. Kuybey's only real fault is that he(it) did not make the mental leap to consider any other possibilities.
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Aug 1, 2013 05:14
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Mercrom posted:If they somehow engineered the universe to not include the second law of thermodynamics I wouldn't call that universe evil and I guess that's where we fundamentally disagree. I guess I should have said re-engineered. In order to counter entropy, they designed a system in which young girls had to die in fear to create energy. That design is, from a human perspective, inherently evil. What Madoka does is re-engineer their design to be more neutral, albeit not entirely so because it would undermine the the legitimately good thing that the Incubators were trying to accomplish. The fact is that they didn't engineer entropy out of existence, so that's a pointless point to make. My point was that they didn't seem to have even considered any alternatives, such as removing entropy or Madoka's solution. They were content with the system they set in place and did not try to improve it. That is their fault.
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Aug 1, 2013 12:58
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Crosscontaminant posted:On the other hand, Madoka's solution worked as a result of the energy built up from her countless deaths in Homura's abandoned timelines - it's possible (even likely) that it was utterly beyond the Incubators' level of technology. I think she needed that literally earth shattering amount of energy because she needed to rebuild the system from the ground up. Remember, she destroyed the entire universe and then rebuilt it. When Homura, after the world was rebuilt, mentioned how energy was harvested in the original world, Kyubey's response made it seem like it was just another possibility that they hadn't considered. That suggests that they could have opted for Madoka's version and built that system just as easily as they build the Wtich/Magical Girl system.
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Aug 1, 2013 19:35
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Reading your post it does seem quite plausible. Makes me wonder if that was an intentional design. As far as your response to my post, that does explain why, from a purely logical perspective, the Incubators chose the Witch system, but that also hinges on the assumption that the Incubators place no other value on the human race since QB's plan from the start (when he realized the potential Madoka had in the final loop) was complete armageddon. It seems that the Incubators care only for the continuation of their species and sought to perpetuate the universe's existence through the most effective means possible. Since they did not care what happened to the human race they accepted the xenocide of the human race in favor of accomplishing their goal.
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Aug 1, 2013 20:31
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If we think about it like convergence in Steins;Gate, everything becomes a lot easier to understand. Sayaka's death was one of the biggest moments of the series, as well as one of the most important, so her death must have become a convergence point. Mami's death was less important, even though it did have a large emotional impact on Madoka and Sayaka, and so her death wasn't defined by convergence. We just have to assume that the divergence between the original and Madoka's world was just enough to save Mami, but not enough to save Sayaka.
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Aug 14, 2013 14:49
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Redcrimson posted:Sayaka, like the other magical girls that became witches, still couldn't escape her fate. Madoka's wish prevents the existence of witches, but not the fundamental process which creates them. Madoka just steps in at the end and stops their soul gems from becoming grief seeds. So because Sayaka became a which in the timeline that Madoka rewrote, there was no way to prevent it. But that doesn't explain why Mami's now alive. By your logic, she should be dead too.
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Aug 14, 2013 17:19
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Actually, I think I can explain why Mami's alive. In the original version, minutes before her death she has Madoka promise that she will become a magical girl and be her partner. Maybe that got to her head and made her arrogant, so she never expected the gigantic face that bit her head off. Maybe without Madoka present, she was able keep her head straight, and was therefore wary of the head when it appeared and dodged, then eventually killed it.
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Aug 14, 2013 17:29
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PerrineClostermann posted:This is a pretty good point. Sayaka was the only person to die in the series that was not killed in action. She had problems that would have been largely untouched by the removal of witches. Her crush was still injured and depressed, Hitomi still would have liked him, Sayaka...well, she definitely wasn't fit for being a "super hero" or anything. I wonder if they'd have learned about the Soul Gems in this timeline though; Madoka was never there to toss Sayaka's off the edge, you know? If they did, that's another blow to Sayaka. I think they did know, in a way. After switching worlds, in the part where Sayaka disappears and leaves Mami, Kyoko, and Homura behind, Mami says, "She's gone. Led away by the indelible Law of the Cycle ... That is the fate of all magical girls ... before the hope we wished for summons an equal amount of misfortune, we have no choice but to vanish from this world." They know that being a magical girl creates an equal amount of the opposing force (misfortune), which is basically what their soul gems used to do in the previous world. It seems to be something they're told from the start.
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Aug 14, 2013 18:06
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Nathilus posted:It could also just be an inference she makes, equal parts noticing that when the soul gems are about to become completely corrupt people just vanish and philosophizing. It's not knowable for anyone in the cycle that a completely corrupt soul gem is dangerous, since Madoka magically takes care of it outside their frame of reference. Homura again being the exception. It's still a logical leap to make though, given that they know soul gems do gradually become corrupt and Newton's third law. Presumably not even the incubators know about the danger of a corrupt soul gem, being just as tied to the current cycle as anyone else. Besides, Kyubey is notably surprised and intrigued by Homura's story, but specifically points out that it's not something that's verifiable. I don't think it's an inference at all. She has another line in that section, "You've known that since you first gained this power, surely." This comes just before the explanation. It suggests that its something bunnycat tells them when when making contracts so all girls know what comes at the end. I don't think bunnycat itself understands the structure any more than that.
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Aug 15, 2013 13:43
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At the very least, if he does do this, it shouldn't be about magical girls. I don't think the western mainstream can handle magical girls. Make them superheroes maybe.
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Aug 16, 2013 03:26
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Superheroes are essentially the magical girls of Hollywood (albeit less prolific), so it would be pretty easy to simply replace the latter with the former.
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Aug 16, 2013 03:54
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:There's already been a massively succesful American-made magical girl TV show. If you're talking about the Powderpuff Girls, that was a decade ago and I don't think there's been anything since.
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Aug 16, 2013 05:24
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MadRhetoric posted:I'd say Nicki Minaj but Nicki Minaj. It also helps when they spew gratuitous profanity.
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Aug 18, 2013 03:40
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Cubemario posted:Regardless of that, I don't find this series to be that particularly hardcore on emotions compared to Clannad (which is the only piece of fiction so far to make me cry at all, let alone multiple times). I have to agree with him on this. Key shows are almost the only shows that have brought me to tears. I think Angel Beats did it twice actually. Casshern Sins had me on the verge of tears for the majority of the show. Compared to those, Madoka doesn't hit as hard, but it comes close.
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Aug 18, 2013 22:25
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Takoluka posted:This has little to do with writing and everything to do with Jun Maeda's compositions. It's not so much that a scene is sad; it's that the scene is accompanied by sad violins and pianos, and that just kills you. I wouldn't say that the writing has little to do with it. The build up it always fantastic and the presentation of the moment is always brilliant, and that's why it hits so hard. But here's the main reason why Madoka doesn't hit as hard: it isn't trying to. The scene where Madoka asks Homura to shoot her soul gem is only a part of the compilation of scenes whose purpose is to sell the existential horror of Homura's life. Killing her best friend is only a part of Homura's larger breakdown. To me, the most powerful moments of the show come after Madoka's apotheosis, where Homura has to come to terms with a life where her best friend's very existence has been annihilated. The scene at the station, where she whispers, "Madoka..." and the other girls are only confused because they've never heard of her, even Mami whose life was saved by her actions; the scene where Homura talks with Madoka's mom and little brother who no longer remember her, despite once being family. The dramatic irony of knowing everything Homura does is what makes them so powerful.
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Aug 19, 2013 00:28
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Mason Dixon posted:It really depends on what tends to push your buttons. This is a good point. At the end of the day, emotional attachment and damage is all subjective. For me, existentialism is what really sets me off. That's probably why Angel Beats hit me so hard, since the surrealistic premise and setting lends its self extremely well extremely well to existentialism, and honestly deliberately went for it. Its the same reason Homura's post-apotheosis scenes hit me so hard. The part you mentioned, time-traveling Madoka saving all the MGs throughout history, it more heartwarming to me than it is heartwrenching. It brought a smile to my face rather than a tear to my eye.
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Aug 19, 2013 04:11
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I think you're basically saying that Madoka is a different kind of show from Key adaptations. Madoka is defined by its tour-de-force narrative and its high quality of presentation. Key adaptations are defined by their deeply emotional drama. Madoka's goal is to tell a fascinating and meaningful story. Key adaptations seek to tell an emotionally moving tale. Essentially, Madoka is focused on the end game while Key adaptations are focused on its moments.
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Aug 19, 2013 05:11
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Phobophilia posted:Speaking of Clannad, how best to start with it? Can I jump straight into AS and get my emotional fix, or will I need to slog through the initial Clannad? And what happens if I'm revolted by their KEY faces, do they get any better? There's a couple of good arcs in Clannad so I'd say watch that first. Also, you will be confused as hell when Fuko randomly pops out of nowhere if you don't know her backstory from Clannad. And the faces don't get much better. I just laughed off how silly they are and watched for the story. If you really want to watch, just ignore the faces and look at their hair to identify the individual girls.
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Aug 19, 2013 12:43
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Cubemario posted:I'm also of the opinion that you need to watch the first season. You most certainly will not get the same impact by skipping a season. Not to mention the first season features several vital bits which are important to understanding the ending and general themes of the show. I didn't find the first season a slog to get through.  That was my favorite arc of the first season... Hell, it's why I kept watching.
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Aug 19, 2013 23:45
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Nathilus posted:Speaking of which, this video cracked me the hell up while simultaneously giving me massive anxiety due to the lack of firearms safety/trigger discipline. I was pretty much trying from (attempted)laughter prevention by the end of that. It's genius. I was hoping they would animate her shooting off a toe, but alas human-bunny-cat's the only victim.
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Sep 6, 2013 03:53
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Phobophilia posted:Basically girls get to become Jesus metaphors as well. This is probably more what he was going for, if he was actually going for a metaphor. That would make Homura her disciple. Madoka's wish wasn't the embodiment of any human ideals, it was simply Madoka's apotheosis. She used her wish to recreate the world with her as a god figure. She could have been male and nothing would really have changed.
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Sep 29, 2013 15:30
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Cephas posted:Awesome Thinking back on Psycho Pass, I think a similar thing does happen, albeit on a minuscule scale by comparison and also hidden in secrecy. Makishima is killed, ending his reign of terror, and Akane is able to develop an odd sort of relationship with the Sybil System. Small changes, but meaningful impact. We didn't see it in Gargantia because the writers sidetracked whatever he'd had in mind, but Maybe we'll see it again in Expelled From Paradise, the 3DCG Toei movie he's working on.
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Oct 5, 2013 15:43
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post... Which makes me wonder if the series ending to Madoka is just a hint of the what may come in the third movie, or if, from what we've seen of his newer works, he's resigned to writing heroes who can make small changes in a relentless, resilient system.
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I took a look at this to see if I could understand the classical definition of deconstruction as applied to literature. Applying the general concept to visual media, deconstruction is calling attention to or criticizing the fundamental aspects of a genre or trope in order to distill what it means rather than just look at what it is. This is just my understanding, so take it as you will. As far as Madoka, it isn't entirely a deconstruction. I'd say it's more of a re purposing of an existing genre to tell a radically different kind of story. In the process of doing that, Urobuchi reaches into the core of the magical girl genre and gives it a good twist, turning everything upside down. Heroism leads to failure, idealism leads to contradiction, determination lead to suffering. What saves them in the end isn't their powers, their charisma, or their friendship. They are save by a single precise and intelligent action that is the result of all of Madoka's knowledge and experiences gained over the course of the show, an action she could not have performed without all the pieces being in the right place at the right time. e:Using Tuxedo's definition, Madoka is a pretty good example of deconstruction. What that "essential" message is... we could argue that forever. ViggyNash fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Oct 5, 2013 |
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Oct 5, 2013 17:29
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I just watched Rebellion and... What the gently caress? I have no idea what Homura even accomplished. Did she somehow take over Madoka's job so Madoka would be able to live a normal life? Did she somehow rid the world of wraiths and witches? Why is Kyubey just a terrified lump of matter fur? What happened to half the moon, and the Earth? What-  On one hand, I wish that the movie ended when Madoka was coming to retrieve Homura and take her... wherever it is that she goes. On the other, a story with that ending would just be a reaffirmation of the themes of the first movie, and not really contribute anything else. But Homura turning into the devil and transforming Madoka from a god into a normal human was absurdly over the top to the point where I don't understand the point anymore. ViggyNash fucked around with this message at 03:59 on Apr 6, 2014 |
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Apr 6, 2014 03:51
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Thinking about it, I think it's less that I didn't understand the ending, and more that I don't want to believe that was really how it ended. It's a really unsettling ending, and I don't mean that lightly. There's still one thing I don't understand. I know there's some kind of symbolism with the half-moon and half-hill in the post-credits segment, which homura falls off after her dance, but I'm not getting it. Can someone explain it for me? e: I find it hilarious how straight up incompetent the ANN review of the movie is. ViggyNash fucked around with this message at 04:28 on Apr 6, 2014 |
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Apr 6, 2014 04:11
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Super Jay Mann posted:It's a callback to the scene with Madoka and Homura sitting side-to-side in the flower field. By the end she's betrayed Madoka and made herself the villain. She's all alone now, missing her "other half" so to speak. Ah, thanks. That makes a lot of sense. Bakanogami posted:I really feel that just the fact that the movie has an ending that makes you want to debate it and think about it makes it an unabashed success, no matter if you eventually decide you love it or hate it. The ending is brilliant, from a technical standpoint. It's the culmination of everything Homura has done since the first time Walpurgisnacht shows up. Her flashback episode shows how far she was willing to go to save Madoka out of her love for her, and she sees what she does as "saving" Madoka from the responsibility of being a god. That is supported by what Madoka says to Homura in the garden, that she would never have wanted to leave everyone behind and go far away. We've also all seen how extreme Homura can be, so her stealing Madoka's god-dom doesn't feel out of place. But as much as I can respect the ending, I still hate it. It feels like Urobuchi's way of taking a massive poo poo on the themes of the show, as if having written a heartwarming ending was driving him crazy so we went and wrote the coldest, darkest ending he could think of. e:VV Compared to this ending where the entire universe has been turned into demon Homura's fantasy playground, a universe in which magical girls are free of their curse and Homura has finally managed to save Madoka from her cruel fate is pretty heartwarming. Bittersweet, but still heartwarming. But since when was the show ending ambiguous? It's pretty obvious what happened, and it's a very conclusive ending. ViggyNash fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Apr 6, 2014 |
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Apr 6, 2014 14:33
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Bakanogami posted:While it might seem Urobuchi ruined the happy ending of the show, if you look at it from the perspective as Homura as the protagonist, it's entirely the opposite. The show ending represented her ultimate and complete failure to stop Madoka from sacrificing herself, and ensured that she would never meet her again as long as she lived. On a grander scale, it may have been for the best, sure, but on a personal level it was a bad end for her. That's what the opening of Rebellion is all about, with everyone dancing around her distraught form. Lets compare the show's ending to Rebellion's. Show Ending: -All MGs throughout time saved from becoming witches. Homura saved from infinite time loop. -Memories specifically involving Madoka and Witches removed, replaced with Wraiths so change isn't too drastic. -Incubators still able to harvest some energy from Wraiths to counter entropy. -Madoka's only interference with the world is through the Law of Cycles. -People's lives are still their own in the Madoverse. Rebellion Ending: -MG status: ??? (suppressed? still fighting wraiths?) -Witch/Wraith status: ??? (fought only by Homura? by other MGs?) -Incubators are Homura's slaves. -Homura has direct control of everyone's lives by constantly manipulating their memories. -Everyone is only living as Homura allows them to. The entire universe turning into mind-controlled robots is not a heartwarming ending, especially compared to one in which everyone benefited in some way. Yes, Homura did benefit from the Madoverse, but she was too obsessed with Madoka to realize it or care. In fact, I'd argue that the Homuraverse actually leaves everyone worse of. If the beginning of Rebellion is anything to go by, fighting together was the greatest joy of their lives. Homura has taken that away from them so that Madoka could live her "normal" life. Homura is obviously worse off, considering how much she sacrificed to create what she thought she always wanted.
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Apr 7, 2014 15:01
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booksnake posted:This is not "objectively". It cannot be objectively - because the entire point is the emotional impact, an entirely opposite concept. Can't argue with that, we were both spouting pretty biased opinions. That said, the ending definitely left a bad taste in my mouth. I don't think less of Urobuchi because that was brilliant ending (and a brilliant movie altogether), but it annoys me that it had to go that way.
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Apr 9, 2014 03:45
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MagicalDuck posted:Shinbou came up with the ending. Urobuchi's original intention was for Homura to be taken to magical girl heaven by Madokami. That so? I suppose I mean ViggyNash fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Apr 9, 2014 |
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Apr 9, 2014 18:03
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PerrineClostermann posted:All objectively wrong True, except for the pacing to an extent. I felt that the fanservice intro dragged on for way too long, which wasn't helped much by the cake song. But other than that the pacing was fine.
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Apr 11, 2014 00:58
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Are you suggesting that once Homura's world is consumed, someone will have to break out of their shell and take her place as the demon overlord? If so, that has some interesting implications.
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Apr 16, 2014 23:45
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jonjonaug posted:Someone put together a comparison of Chiwa Saito's original 200% yandere take of the last 20 or so minutes in the film (it's on the bonus BD with the limited edition) with the version that ended up in the final product. Kinda wish they kept the original take of the Sayaka conversation and the humming at the end, but I can definitely understand why they'd change it around. I don't agree actually. The final version was much more cold and calculating, which is how Homura is trying to sell herself after becoming the devil.
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Apr 24, 2014 14:10
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Cephas posted:Amazing post. I can't believe everyone straight up ignored this amazing post.
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Apr 30, 2014 14:23
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