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Snooze Cruise
Feb 16, 2013

look-
a post,


Yeah the Chrono Ark story stuff has always been part of the vision from the start and it was clear it was eventually coming if you read the updates, so it doesn't really feel like a retrofit to me but it is different in the sense the majority of early access stuff I played tends to add it piecemeal instead of all at once like this.

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GetDunked
Dec 16, 2011

"We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time."

https://soundcloud.com/phatcapbeats/yall-ready-for-this-space-jam-song-phatcap-trap-remix?in=anicerobe/sets/you-should-fucking-duck-when


Started playing Rift Wizard after seeing it leave early access and remember this thread talking it up a while back, and WOW there's a lot of stuff to process! I've been enjoying trying out some fire builds as I flail about noobishly, with Fireball and Flame Gate. Any advice for a new player overwhelmed with all the choices?

Dropbear
Jul 26, 2007
Bombs away!

GetDunked posted:

Started playing Rift Wizard after seeing it leave early access and remember this thread talking it up a while back, and WOW there's a lot of stuff to process! I've been enjoying trying out some fire builds as I flail about noobishly, with Fireball and Flame Gate. Any advice for a new player overwhelmed with all the choices?

It's a bit counter-intuitive, but I think the challenges that limit your spellbook & skills to a random small selection are a better way to learn the game than the normal run. The smaller pool of stuff helps with choice paralysis & makes you think about synergies with what you have available.

habituallyred
Feb 6, 2015


GetDunked posted:

Started playing Rift Wizard after seeing it leave early access and remember this thread talking it up a while back, and WOW there's a lot of stuff to process! I've been enjoying trying out some fire builds as I flail about noobishly, with Fireball and Flame Gate. Any advice for a new player overwhelmed with all the choices?

Before you spend point 1 look at the gates. Do any of them have a circle? Then buy a starting spell that synergizes with that circle.

Snooze Cruise
Feb 16, 2013

look-
a post,


Beat witch's dungeon on Vivid Knight with the main character, unlock the witch.... Monster gems. . .

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

The most important tip for Rift Wizard is to respect the rock.

Learn Earthen Sentinel. The rock is your friend. The rock is here for you.

megane
Jun 20, 2008





habituallyred posted:

Before you spend point 1 look at the gates. Do any of them have a circle? Then buy a starting spell that synergizes with that circle.

I got my first win because there was a Holy circle in one of the first rifts and I went absolutely whole hog on Holy summons.

Turns out archons are pretty beefy.

jimmydalad
Sep 26, 2013

My face when others are unable to appreciate the :kazooieass:

AGDQ 2018 Awful Block Survivor



Snooze Cruise posted:

Beat witch's dungeon on Vivid Knight with the main character, unlock the witch.... Monster gems. . .

The monsters are absolutely adorable, arenít they?

Vivid Knight made me realise I would be terrible at autobattlers as Iíd bullishly try to go for 3 stars with little consideration for composition and be surprised when my team sucks.

Also, Chrono Ark expert mode is no joke but I did manage to beat it with a Hein, Huz, Phoenix and Miss Chain composition that had burst damage from Hein and pain debuffs from Miss Chain. Phoenix also let me cheese the lightning mechanic from the final boss as I could just throw them all at him and then give him a loaf of bread :v:.

Itís been really fun exploring characters and the mechanics they have to play with. Though admittedly I struggle with Azar and Narhan. The former in particular is ironic considering heís the main character of the visual novel side. I did have fun matching up the fate side characters to the main game ones. Curious to see how the change happens.

dizzywhip
Dec 23, 2005



Dropbear posted:

It's a bit counter-intuitive, but I think the challenges that limit your spellbook & skills to a random small selection are a better way to learn the game than the normal run. The smaller pool of stuff helps with choice paralysis & makes you think about synergies with what you have available.

Yeah I won one regular game and one with the wolf challenge, and the wolf one ended up being a lot easier. You can pretty easily get every skill that's even slightly beneficial so you don't need to put much thought into the build. As long as you take care to avoid floors with 100% physical immune enemies and focus on picking up mana potions and good items, it's a pretty easy win.

Mr. Locke
Jul 28, 2010


jimmydalad posted:

The monsters are absolutely adorable, arenít they?

Vivid Knight made me realise I would be terrible at autobattlers as Iíd bullishly try to go for 3 stars with little consideration for composition and be surprised when my team sucks.

Vivid Knight is a little weird in that as you get better at the game, you start to realize that you absolutely should be prioritizing synergizing and picking up strong symbols over characters until very late into the run and your main point of strategic pivot are your gems, not your party- there's definitely some characters I'll grab because I need someone who can help clear packs or sustain through rougher fights but you'd be surprised how much is on your personal gem use to build an actual coherent strategy, especially as the Witch. The game lets you know what special merchants and major bosses are going to be on route, and you're gonna need to use that knowledge in the harder challenges like the later versions of Witch's Maze or Drops of Mana to build a plan- it's the same deal as Slay the Spire, build a symbol pool and gem selection to help you tackle the next upcoming boss. Also, be careful as a few Symbols and Characters can be absolutely anti-synergistic, like any Truestrike setup (especially with Reno, who'll spam Truestrike on the first character in your lineup) and a character who uses a buff Skill, since they'll just sit there buff-stacking and never actually attack.

Getting a character to 3-stars is such a major investment of resources that unless you fluke into it or you're sitting on a gigantic pile of gold very late in the run and already have a very good set of symbols it's usually not worth it.

Count Uvula
Dec 20, 2011


nrook posted:

The most important tip for Rift Wizard is to respect the rock.

Learn Earthen Sentinel. The rock is your friend. The rock is here for you.

Deranged advice, but it's a moderately useful spell that is extremely funny with any of the spell upgrades so I won't call it bad advice.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

I keep stubbornly attempting to win Rift Wizard with a poison wizard but there's so many enemy types that are outright immune and the ways to break immunity are so awkward that it always stalls out around the high teens. :qq:

Kchama
Jul 25, 2007

YAP YAP YAP


Kanos posted:

I keep stubbornly attempting to win Rift Wizard with a poison wizard but there's so many enemy types that are outright immune and the ways to break immunity are so awkward that it always stalls out around the high teens. :qq:

I've always felt it weird that if any build is a trap build in Roguelikes it is always poison. See: Crawl and poison being a deliberate newbie trap.

Count Uvula
Dec 20, 2011


Kanos posted:

I keep stubbornly attempting to win Rift Wizard with a poison wizard but there's so many enemy types that are outright immune and the ways to break immunity are so awkward that it always stalls out around the high teens. :qq:

I've done it but also it took way too many goddamn tries and it relied heavily on earthen sentinels (hey speak of the devil!) + poison sting with pumped up impact damage, so it's arguable whether it was even a pure poison build since so much of my damage was physical or fire (from poison combustion + IIRC the shrine that converts some physical damage to fire). The earthen sentinels + poison sting combo is really important though because the sentinels can sting one enemy in line of sight per turn, which will remove their poison immunity without you having to do anything directly to them.

please knock Mom!
Nov 9, 2011

:gdj::gdj::gdj::gdj::gdj::gdj::gdj::gdj::gdj::gdj::gdj::gdj::gdj::gdj::gdj::gdj::gdj::gdj::gdj::gdj:


I still consider earning the Wolfer achievement my proudest moment in roguelike gaming

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Count Uvula posted:

I've done it but also it took way too many goddamn tries and it relied heavily on earthen sentinels (hey speak of the devil!) + poison sting with pumped up impact damage, so it's arguable whether it was even a pure poison build since so much of my damage was physical or fire (from poison combustion + IIRC the shrine that converts some physical damage to fire). The earthen sentinels + poison sting combo is really important though because the sentinels can sting one enemy in line of sight per turn, which will remove their poison immunity without you having to do anything directly to them.

I've actually been leaning on Earthen Sentinels but the main problem I keep running into is that the spell has way too few god damned charges for a temporary summon so if the run doesn't bless me with ten billion mana potions I run out of steam incredibly hard on later floors, especially if the RNG sucks and gives me a bunch of summon spammers or physical/poison resists as my only options.

GetDunked
Dec 16, 2011

"We shall not cease from exploration
And the end of all our exploring
Will be to arrive where we started
And know the place for the first time."

https://soundcloud.com/phatcapbeats/yall-ready-for-this-space-jam-song-phatcap-trap-remix?in=anicerobe/sets/you-should-fucking-duck-when


One thing I'm really appreciating from an understated design standpoint (maybe this changes later idk) is how each rift only has a handful of enemy types, each of which has like up to two special things it does, and a series of resistances that are very coarse-grained and static. The net result is that not only is it a good idea, strategically, to consider all three of your potential rifts against your current resources, it's very feasible to do so, and the game doesn't muck about with obfuscating enemy health or defenses or special attacks--you get all the information you need to make an informed decision. It's a very enjoyable change of pace from the classic roguelikes which, while I love them, do frequently suffer from issues like "how was I supposed to know enemy X reflects damage type Y" or "guess I'll make a note that next time I'm 40 hours into a save I should have Nexus resistance by floor 50".

Pararoid
Dec 6, 2005

Te Waipounamu pride


Kchama posted:

I've always felt it weird that if any build is a trap build in Roguelikes it is always poison. See: Crawl and poison being a deliberate newbie trap.

I think the issue is that poison in so many games is just damage over time, which is worse than just killing something in almost every game. Maybe if poisons were more debilitating too?

Zore
Sep 21, 2010




Pararoid posted:

I think the issue is that poison in so many games is just damage over time, which is worse than just killing something in almost every game. Maybe if poisons were more debilitating too?

Its also the thing enemies are most likely to gain resistance or immunity to in almost every game. Especially high level enemies in a lot of roguelikes.

Swinging a sword at a ball of fire- cool, good, definitely does damage
Shooting an arrow at a ball of fire- cool, good, definitely does damage
Poisoning a ball of fire- UNREALISTIC, CLEARLY POISON SHOULD DO NOTHING AND FURTHERMORE

Rinse repeat for basically everything that isn't just 'a dude' or 'an animal'

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

Whatís wrong with poison in DCSS? Itís been years but I definitely remember killing orbs of fire with poison arrow. Itís more effective in the early game and against specific enemies but calling it a trap seems too strong.

I agree that it seems bad to me in rift wizard. I kind of like the poison cantrip (poison hits shields and it has high range, so you can use it to strip certain problem enemies of shields) but going deeper did not feel rewarding.

Lawman 0
Aug 17, 2010





Iirc they got rid of poison arrow for some weird aoe thing.

Johnny Joestar
Oct 21, 2010

Don't shoot him?

...
...





the thing that makes poison function better in rift wizard over other roguelikes is that you're generally expected to branch out to some degree and not try to rely 100% on a single path. you're going to run into enemies that resist or nullify it, but the same is true for any other damage type in the game.

Serephina
Nov 8, 2005



DCSS poison: So yea, the one solid mid-to-lategame spell got removed as the school was double-downed on being "early game trap of trash". Awkward lvl6 spell as its capstone (singular, there are only 8 spells total in the entire school), explicitly no use past midgame. As a feature.

Many features where suggested to help poison scale into the lategame vs all those resistant foes, all rejected.

Imagined
Feb 2, 2007


I enjoyed Poison in Slay the Spire because I could set my poison engine rolling and then just concentrate on not taking any damage while the poison did its thing. Also poison damage ignored their block, IIRC.

habituallyred
Feb 6, 2015


Pararoid posted:

I think the issue is that poison in so many games is just damage over time, which is worse than just killing something in almost every game. Maybe if poisons were more debilitating too?

Poison in Rift Wizard can be upgraded to do a bunch of different stuff. Stun folks, summon spiders, dark damage, etc. But you still have to get the poison into the enemy. And a lot of things that ignore poison also ignore dark damage.

deep dish peat moss
Jul 27, 2006

On a planet that increasingly resembles one huge Maximum Security prison, the only intelligent choice is to plan a jail break.



The whole "high level enemies all need to be poison immune!" thing in games stems from many games implementing poison as a "this ticks down until you're dead or cured" timer or otherwise deals its damage over a long duration. That encourages a playstyle of chumping high level enemies by poisoning them then hiding until the poison kills them, so they make poison worse against high level enemies in a misguided attempt to balance it. Anything you do that makes high level enemies less susceptible to poison than lower level enemies is extremely dumb design because then you have two different states of poison to balance. There's "normal enemy" poison vs. "resistant enemy" poison and then you have to pick one to balance its damage around, which makes it either too strong against weak stuff or too weak against strong stuff.

The best solution IMO is the implementation of poison where it does damage based on stacks, but loses half/a large chunk of its stacks each time it does damage, so in effect it's just higher damage than normal attacks but delayed by a turn or two, with the added combo play of steadily trending upward if you keep stacking it. That, or make it behave in an entirely different manner against high level enemies than it does against low level ones but I can't think of any games that do that. Or discouraging the "poison and wait" strategy via the inclusion of other mechanics or enemy behavior, like how Rift Wizard does it.

deep dish peat moss fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Sep 15, 2021

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


i haven't played in a few months but one of the big issues with poison in Rift Wizard was either a bug or a really poorly considered balance decision where a lot of synergy skills that activated on poisoned enemies dying only counted them dying from directly applied poison-typed damage, instead of "dying while poisoned" or even, somewhat less generously, "dying of poison ticks from the status effect"

i think the former was intentional while the latter was a bug; in any case, it may have changed in the interim

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

OUR SIDE HAS TO WIN


Jupiter Hell's Toxicologist is one of the strongest perks. Poison is very dangerous in that game.

TOOT BOOT
May 25, 2010



Reminds of how status effects were often useless against bosses in JRPGs. I'm definitely not going to bother using that poo poo on random battles where I can basically just press A so why even put it in the game?

goferchan
Feb 8, 2004



Pararoid posted:

I think the issue is that poison in so many games is just damage over time, which is worse than just killing something in almost every game. Maybe if poisons were more debilitating too?

It's a very simple implementation but I like how in Slay the Spire it's a stacking counter thing and not a binary "poisoned or not poisoned" thing. It works mechanically because your enemy losing a flat 15hp per turn might be really OP early game but useless late game, and the flavor works too because obviously poison runs the gamut between being stung by a wasp and being bitten by a black widow.

ExiledTinkerer
Nov 4, 2009


Metallic Child very much seems to have a place of honor in Adjacent Crazy Town alongside the likes of Asura, Hades, Dandy Ace, and incredibly few others.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1490610/METALLIC_CHILD/

Polish thresholds for games like this are really reaching a lofty peak unless you've got some serious systemic heft to throw around and even then.

Imagined
Feb 2, 2007


Bold choice to name your hero Rona in 2021.

cock hero flux
Apr 17, 2011





bees x1000 posted:

Jupiter Hell's Toxicologist is one of the strongest perks. Poison is very dangerous in that game.

poison is insanely strong in that game. a poison grenade will kill literally any enemy that isn't immune to poison, and the only enemies that are immune to poison are robots and warlocks.

Zedlic
Mar 10, 2005

Ask me about being too much of a sperging idiot to understand what resisting arrest means.

In mobile news, Shattered Pixel Dungeon is finally a thing on iOS.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014




Have they fixed the bug where keys can be generated behind the door that they unlock?

Chinook
Apr 11, 2006

...into the far North we shall take you.



Jedit posted:

Have they fixed the bug where keys can be generated behind the door that they unlock?

When that happens it is typically because you have to jump in from above. Thereís always a chasm above, in that case, and that room will contain a skeleton (ha) with a bunch of treasure and a key, to get out.

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



Chinook posted:

When that happens it is typically because you have to jump in from above. There’s always a chasm above, in that case, and that room will contain a skeleton (ha) with a bunch of treasure and a key, to get out.

I've seen it happen on floor 1. It's definitely a bug.

Chinook
Apr 11, 2006

...into the far North we shall take you.



Jedit posted:

I've seen it happen on floor 1. It's definitely a bug.

Ahh, gotcha. Well, that is a different thing then. And I havenít seen it happen in 1.0 so far

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Johnny Joestar posted:

the thing that makes poison function better in rift wizard over other roguelikes is that you're generally expected to branch out to some degree and not try to rely 100% on a single path. you're going to run into enemies that resist or nullify it, but the same is true for any other damage type in the game.

Pure mono-path lightning builds have the tools to trivially win the game without branching out ever. Whenever I get tired of dying horribly on gimmick characters I run a lightning build and win basically every time because it's so strong and easy to play.

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Duderclese
Aug 30, 2003
I'm the gay younger brother of UnkleBoB and Buddha Stalin


Kanos posted:

Pure mono-path lightning builds have the tools to trivially win the game without branching out ever. Whenever I get tired of dying horribly on gimmick characters I run a lightning build and win basically every time because it's so strong and easy to play.

Care to elaborate? I'm dumb and bad at this game, apparently.

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