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END ME SCOOB
Mar 27, 2007

do it DOG wrap it up already are you asleep

would you do it for a scooby snack

finisH ME LIKE ONE OF YOUR FUCKING SANDWI
CHES ALREADY YOU SHIT I CAN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE

Ogmius815 posted:

Is there any interest in having a Rogue Legacy thread? We don't seem to have and I wouldn't want to talk about it here because it's very clearly not a roguelike at all.

It's existed for a while.

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Dana Crysalis
Jun 27, 2007
the title-less

Ogmius815 posted:

Is there any interest in having a Rogue Legacy thread? We don't seem to have and I wouldn't want to talk about it here because it's very clearly not a roguelike at all (Please don't argue that it is because then the term will have totally lost all meaning).

There is a Rogue Legacy thread, though.

e: beaten so hard

TOOT BOOT
May 25, 2010



Anyone ever mention that CultRL became a kickstarter failure? After 1+ year of largely leaving backers in the dark, Lord Dullard basically come out and said 'Yeah this is too hard and I don't have any enthusiasm for working on it anymore so I'm probably not going to' Great attitude to have after taking $34,000 of people's money. I probably won't back any future roguelikes that aren't big names, not that I was a cultrl backer or anything.

..btt
Mar 26, 2008


Does this really surprise you? If you want a guaranteed product for your money, go to a shop. If you want to give someone you don't know some money because they had a cool/interesting idea that will probably never happen, go to kickstarter.

This isn't anything specific to roguelikes of course.

Lprsti99
Apr 7, 2011

Everything's coming up explodey!



Pillbug

Yeah, honestly, the only sane thought process when donating to a Kickstarter is similar to going to Vegas for a weekend. Don't throw down any more money than you're willing to lose for absolutely no gain, but with the possibility of maybe getting something cool back.

FuzzySlippers
Feb 6, 2009



Everyone knows KS are not preorders, but that's still lovely of a developer to just go 'gently caress it'. Especially not having some big problem but just decide that making games is no fun. At least release the source and assets to the backers.

Though I personally don't ever back anything that isn't already pretty far along.

FuzzySlippers fucked around with this message at Aug 23, 2013 around 10:50

ExiledTinkerer
Nov 4, 2009


The failure of CultRL to become a thing was last a thing some months ago when this happened the first time. After he finally started communicating again at the tail end of that event, he was to buckle down and speak up to the backer community and whatnot for help. That...didn't happen and now there's a poll on the game's forum, which he also has suspiciously not commented on at all given it was his own poll, as to what direction to take it all from here, if any.

It is one thing to fail at an overscoped magnum opus of a project, but when skin has been put into the game and all else is a factor, I don't understand how anybody can elect to just go dark on internet communication and otherwise for months at a time---it takes less than a minute to even so much as throw down a forum post, tweet, etc out of basic courtesy.


In better news of yet more things seeing releases again after ages alongside Prospector: Random Realms, crazy as ever and probably the most elaborate of the RLs out there made with DarkBasic, had a new release: (top most link in OP) http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m...ew&t=178942&b=5 009c

I can't really find a changelog beyond the older one there, but the dev generally always tried to improve a bit of everything with each release back in the day so I reckon that trend continues.

Ganondork
Dec 26, 2012

Ganondork


Lprsti99 posted:

Yeah, honestly, the only sane thought process when donating to a Kickstarter is similar to going to Vegas for a weekend. Don't throw down any more money than you're willing to lose for absolutely no gain, but with the possibility of maybe getting something cool back.

Agreed, although I'd argue that there are clear differences between some relatively unknown person claiming they'd like to make a roguelike, and a well-known gaming personality that has proven themselves in the past (ala Star Citizen, Torment: Tides of Numenera, etc.).

Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Jan 1, 1970

HANDSOME FIGHTERS NEVER LOSE BATTLES


Cybernetic Crumb

FuzzySlippers posted:

Everyone knows KS are not preorders, but that's still lovely of a developer to just go 'gently caress it'. Especially not having some big problem but just decide that making games is no fun. At least release the source and assets to the backers.

Though I personally don't ever back anything that isn't already pretty far along.

What the hell is he supposed to do if he can't finish the project with that budget? If he's spent his 34k it isn't like he can be slave to his promise forever; he needs to eat and live too. His estimate for how expensive it would be was wrong, if he could have foreseen that then so could you. It sucks but that's how these things work. Venture capitalists don't quit and walk away when one venture fails, kickstarter was always a high risk, high reward "investment".

doctorfrog
Mar 14, 2007

Great.


Charles Dickens posted:

"Mr. Pip," said Wemmick, "I should like just to run over with you on my fingers, if you please, the names of the various bridges up as high as Chelsea Reach. Let's see; there's London, one; Southwark, two; Blackfriars, three; Waterloo, four; Westminster, five; Vauxhall, six." He had checked off each bridge in its turn, with the handle of his safe-key on the palm of his hand. "There's as many as six, you see, to choose from."

"I don't understand you," said I.

"Choose your bridge, Mr. Pip," returned Wemmick, "and take a walk upon your bridge, and pitch your money into the Thames over the centre arch of your bridge, and you know the end of it. Back a Kickstarter with it, and you may know the end of it too - but it's a less pleasant and profitable end."

Safety Biscuits
Oct 21, 2010



Mr Wemmick is polydactylic.

I just died in Brogue. There were a poison gas trap and a paralysis trigger right next to each other in a corridor. I saw a centaur at the other end, ran round the corner, and while it was pursuing me it triggered the traps, paralysed us, and killed me from the gas. I didn't even see it. Even for me that was a bad one. I think he needs to tweak it so you have a free move after being injured and before being reparalysed, it's a bit too strong at the moment.

EvilMike
Dec 6, 2004



House Louse posted:

Mr Wemmick is polydactylic.

I just died in Brogue. There were a poison gas trap and a paralysis trigger right next to each other in a corridor. I saw a centaur at the other end, ran round the corner, and while it was pursuing me it triggered the traps, paralysed us, and killed me from the gas. I didn't even see it. Even for me that was a bad one. I think he needs to tweak it so you have a free move after being injured and before being reparalysed, it's a bit too strong at the moment.

Those traps can be pretty harsh, all I can really suggest is if you see vents in the ground, be extremely paranoid - search for the pressure plates and stay the hell away from where the gas comes out. I think paralysis traps always warn you this way.

If it makes up for it, you can pull the same sort of poo poo on enemies. A staff of conjuration and some paralysis gas is all it takes (the conjured blades are immune to gas). Or use armour of respiration if you are lucky.

doctorfrog
Mar 14, 2007

Great.


Due to the prevalence of traps, I'm finding that a ring of awareness is pretty useful in the midgame, but it's also not a bad idea to just sniff around a new room for traps for a few turns. The way I think it works is this: you have a chance to find each trap or vent separately, so the more vents or traps you have around you, the greater the chance you'll find at least one of them. So if you find one of them, hammer the 'S' key a couple times to uncover anything else.

It also follows, of course, that if you have allies with you, there is also a greater chance that they'll trigger a trap before you can find it.

FuzzySlippers
Feb 6, 2009



Jeffrey posted:

What the hell is he supposed to do if he can't finish the project with that budget? If he's spent his 34k it isn't like he can be slave to his promise forever; he needs to eat and live too. His estimate for how expensive it would be was wrong, if he could have foreseen that then so could you. It sucks but that's how these things work. Venture capitalists don't quit and walk away when one venture fails, kickstarter was always a high risk, high reward "investment".

This is his reputation and his budget that he devised. There are a lot of options to try to save his rep and do a better job of working with his backers. Also, he doesn't seem to have run out of money. He mentions nothing about budget and only says he's run out of steam and enthusiasm which is pretty par for the course for completing a long project (hence all the perspiration vs inspiration cliches).

Safety Biscuits
Oct 21, 2010



EvilMike posted:

Those traps can be pretty harsh, all I can really suggest is if you see vents in the ground, be extremely paranoid - search for the pressure plates and stay the hell away from where the gas comes out. I think paralysis traps always warn you this way.

If it makes up for it, you can pull the same sort of poo poo on enemies. A staff of conjuration and some paralysis gas is all it takes (the conjured blades are immune to gas). Or use armour of respiration if you are lucky.

Oh I'd actually seen this one and was stuck between a rock and a hard place. It just felt ignominious because I didn't even see the centaur kill me, hell, it didn't even attack me...

I don't think paralysis always warns you but it does have three vents plus the trigger to find so they're relatively easy to spot, as doctorfrog says. It's overpowered both ways though, I think, because if you paralyse something you can normally kill or seriously injure it in one hit.

You can also trigger traps from a distance with a thrown dart etc. which will stop anything else triggering it until the dart is gone.

doctorfrog posted:

It also follows, of course, that if you have allies with you, there is also a greater chance that they'll trigger a trap before you can find it.

I don't use allies

RPATDO_LAMD
Mar 22, 2013



House Louse posted:

I think he needs to tweak it so you have a free move after being injured and before being reparalysed, it's a bit too strong at the moment.

I thought only one kind of gas could exist on a square at a time. If there's poison gas damaging you, there can't be paralysis gas, and vice versa. Maybe poison gas doesn't unparalyse you?

Of course, paralysis gas is still way too strong when an enemy can shoot you from outside the cloud or can summon blades...

doctorfrog posted:

It also follows, of course, that if you have allies with you, there is also a greater chance that they'll trigger a trap before you can find it.

And it will always be confusion, and they'll re-activate it a hundred times and kill two other allies before you manage to step onto the plate and block them. (Or just stop being dumb and remember to throw something onto the plate to keep it depressed, but where's the fun in that?)

malkav11
Aug 7, 2009


TOOT BOOT posted:

Anyone ever mention that CultRL became a kickstarter failure? After 1+ year of largely leaving backers in the dark, Lord Dullard basically come out and said 'Yeah this is too hard and I don't have any enthusiasm for working on it anymore so I'm probably not going to' Great attitude to have after taking $34,000 of people's money. I probably won't back any future roguelikes that aren't big names, not that I was a cultrl backer or anything.

What? I backed this and this is the first I can recall hearing of it.

Oh. Because, of course, he didn't update the Kickstarter or contact backers in any way about it. Y'know, guys, I understand that Kickstarter isn't a particularly useful forum for continued discussion and ongoing minor announcements, etc, but some of us don't have time to monitor every single KS project's forum/website/etc on a daily basis for news - whereas Kickstarter pushes updates out to email. So fricking update the project from time to time. Especially if you're making major changes such as, I dunno, abandoning it.

DalaranJ
Apr 15, 2008

Yosuke will now die for you.


RPATDO_LAMD posted:

I thought only one kind of gas could exist on a square at a time. If there's poison gas damaging you, there can't be paralysis gas, and vice versa. Maybe poison gas doesn't unparalyse you?

This is correct. Only one type of gas on a square at a time, but corrosion isn't an effect that cancels paralysis.

DalaranJ fucked around with this message at Aug 24, 2013 around 15:21

Nintendo Kid
Aug 4, 2011

Trophy-ko says:
~death to capitalism~

Hilalry is 45


Yeah armor of respiration allows you to really play those gas traps to your advantage.

MacGyvers_Mullet
Sep 5, 2006

The guilty pay the price.


Jeffrey posted:

What the hell is he supposed to do if he can't finish the project with that budget? If he's spent his 34k it isn't like he can be slave to his promise forever; he needs to eat and live too. His estimate for how expensive it would be was wrong, if he could have foreseen that then so could you. It sucks but that's how these things work. Venture capitalists don't quit and walk away when one venture fails, kickstarter was always a high risk, high reward "investment".

It's true that Kickstarters are not preorders, but if the rewards include a pre-order (which his do), he is 100% on the hook to deliver that or issue a full refund to everyone who backed a tier that included a preorder. Kickstarter isn't a gamble, a preorder, or an investment - it's a pretty transparent "Give me money, I will give you this in exchange, then go do this other thing with your money." If a kickstarter dev decides to include the thing he wants to use your money to make as a reward tier, then he has to deliver it or is legally obligated to refund everyone who paid enough to get it.

That's more or less why the Star Citizen kickstarter started as its own separate thing - the original strategy was to make everyone go through a special Star Citizen website that explicitly absolved the developer of any responsibility to ever deliver an actual game. Kickstarter actually requires you to deliver all your rewards or issue full refunds.

I didn't back it, but looking at the CultRL kickstarter page if the dev gives up on the game, that could go real rotten for him since he appears to have run the kickstarter under his own name instead of a corporation, so he could be personally liable for refunding all his customers with unfulfilled rewards.

Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Jan 1, 1970

HANDSOME FIGHTERS NEVER LOSE BATTLES


Cybernetic Crumb

MacGyvers_Mullet posted:

It's true that Kickstarters are not preorders, but if the rewards include a pre-order (which his do), he is 100% on the hook to deliver that or issue a full refund to everyone who backed a tier that included a preorder. Kickstarter isn't a gamble, a preorder, or an investment - it's a pretty transparent "Give me money, I will give you this in exchange, then go do this other thing with your money." If a kickstarter dev decides to include the thing he wants to use your money to make as a reward tier, then he has to deliver it or is legally obligated to refund everyone who paid enough to get it.

That's more or less why the Star Citizen kickstarter started as its own separate thing - the original strategy was to make everyone go through a special Star Citizen website that explicitly absolved the developer of any responsibility to ever deliver an actual game. Kickstarter actually requires you to deliver all your rewards or issue full refunds.

I didn't back it, but looking at the CultRL kickstarter page if the dev gives up on the game, that could go real rotten for him since he appears to have run the kickstarter under his own name instead of a corporation, so he could be personally liable for refunding all his customers with unfulfilled rewards.

Is there precedent for this? That is, refunding all pledges due to preorders not being fulfilled? I really doubt kickstarter will put themselves in the middle of any such disputes. If there really is a contract it is likely between each individual backer and the person who runs the project, so they would have to seek individual recourse.

Looks like kickstarter prefers to stay out of it, is there anything more recent?
http://www.engadget.com/2012/05/07/kickstarter-refunds/

It seems to me like backing a project is implicitly a bet on whether or not the product will be created for that much money. Trying to wring money out of him at this point seems like trying to get blood from a stone.

MacGyvers_Mullet
Sep 5, 2006

The guilty pay the price.


Jeffrey posted:

Is there precedent for this? That is, refunding all pledges due to preorders not being fulfilled? I really doubt kickstarter will put themselves in the middle of any such disputes. If there really is a contract it is likely between each individual backer and the person who runs the project, so they would have to seek individual recourse.

Looks like kickstarter prefers to stay out of it, is there anything more recent?
http://www.engadget.com/2012/05/07/kickstarter-refunds/

It seems to me like backing a project is implicitly a bet on whether or not the product will be created for that much money. Trying to wring money out of him at this point seems like trying to get blood from a stone.

From Kickstarter's FAQ: http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq...cs?ref=help_nav

quote:

Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?
Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) We crafted these terms to create a legal requirement for creators to follow through on their projects, and to give backers a recourse if they don't. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.

Basically, if a developer doesn't want to be obligated to deliver a product or refund everyone, then they can't offer the product as part of the rewards.

Nemesis Of Moles
Jul 25, 2007


The problem is KS does just stay out of it. KS themselves aren't going to go out of their way to sue someone who ran off with the money or spent it all, and its relatively unlikely that 'investors' are going to bother with the process for what is a relatively small amount of money.

I'm not sure there has every been a case where a video game KS fell through after donations and anyone sued. There was that one dumb monopoly board game thing but even then, no one actually sued anyone, I don't think.

Nintendo Kid
Aug 4, 2011

Trophy-ko says:
~death to capitalism~

Hilalry is 45


I doubt he has the money to refund it and there's no way you'll be able to get it out of him.

MacGyvers_Mullet
Sep 5, 2006

The guilty pay the price.


Nemesis Of Moles posted:

The problem is KS does just stay out of it. KS themselves aren't going to go out of their way to sue someone who ran off with the money or spent it all, and its relatively unlikely that 'investors' are going to bother with the process for what is a relatively small amount of money.

I'm not sure there has every been a case where a video game KS fell through after donations and anyone sued. There was that one dumb monopoly board game thing but even then, no one actually sued anyone, I don't think.

Actually someone sued a Kickstarter creator already:

http://venturebeat.com/2013/01/22/w...y-he-was-right/

Yeah, it's obviously going to be difficult to get the developer of the CultRL kickstarter to cough up the refunds he's obligated to deliver, but that's kind of a separate issue. I could easily see one of the folks that backed it at the $500 level filing in small claims court, which is a fairly simple process and can result in the dev's wages getting garnished or something equally lovely for him. Since it looks like he didn't set up a corporation to receive the KS funds and liabilities, he could be on the hook for the whole $34,000 - which really isn't enough debt by itself for him to declare personal bankruptcy and have it discharged.

100 HOGS AGREE
Oct 13, 2007

Alcohol...
It's the water of life.



Grimey Drawer

I don't see why he doesn't just release something, even if it's poo poo and nigh unplayable. Technically a game came out so he's off the hook.

Nemesis Of Moles
Jul 25, 2007


MacGyvers_Mullet posted:

Actually someone sued a Kickstarter creator already:

http://venturebeat.com/2013/01/22/w...y-he-was-right/

Yeah, it's obviously going to be difficult to get the developer of the CultRL kickstarter to cough up the refunds he's obligated to deliver, but that's kind of a separate issue. I could easily see one of the folks that backed it at the $500 level filing in small claims court, which is a fairly simple process and can result in the dev's wages getting garnished or something equally lovely for him. Since it looks like he didn't set up a corporation to receive the KS funds and liabilities, he could be on the hook for the whole $34,000 - which really isn't enough debt by itself for him to declare personal bankruptcy and have it discharged.

Yeah I knew about the stand thing, it raises some interesting issues, I said video game specifically cause I know more than one KS has resulted in court action.

Nintendo Kid
Aug 4, 2011

Trophy-ko says:
~death to capitalism~

Hilalry is 45


MacGyvers_Mullet posted:

Actually someone sued a Kickstarter creator already:

http://venturebeat.com/2013/01/22/w...y-he-was-right/

Yeah, it's obviously going to be difficult to get the developer of the CultRL kickstarter to cough up the refunds he's obligated to deliver, but that's kind of a separate issue. I could easily see one of the folks that backed it at the $500 level filing in small claims court, which is a fairly simple process and can result in the dev's wages getting garnished or something equally lovely for him. Since it looks like he didn't set up a corporation to receive the KS funds and liabilities, he could be on the hook for the whole $34,000 - which really isn't enough debt by itself for him to declare personal bankruptcy and have it discharged.

They sued him, sure. But last I checked the result of that lawsuit was still no compensation received cuz the guy they sued didn't have the assets. People without money are hard to get stuff back from.

Bouchacha
Feb 7, 2006



It doesn't matter if it's a small amount of money to each user, that's what class action suits are for. All that would need to happen (if it needs to escalate to this level) is for one user to lawyer up and claim to represent the entire 'class' of KS backers. Any backer that doesn't wish to sue or be represented by the lead can just opt out. Given the relatively small class amount though ($34k), a lawsuit, even a class action, would be highly unlikely anyways.

Again though, it would be far easier to just release a lovely game. I'm not familiar with any provision of law that says the game must be 'good'. There might be something in the uniform commercial code about 'good faith' representation or whatever.

Bouchacha fucked around with this message at Aug 24, 2013 around 19:47

Jordan7hm
Feb 17, 2011

MENS REA? LOL MORE LIKE CHRIS REA AM I RITE

Lipstick Apathy

Install Windows posted:

They sued him, sure. But last I checked the result of that lawsuit was still no compensation received cuz the guy they sued didn't have the assets. People without money are hard to get stuff back from.

The point is that it punishes the person who is basically scamming you out of money by ensuring he has no assets.

I think with a game it's pretty wonky though because its not like he promised it would be good, just that you would get it. As long as he releases something he would be off the hook, no?

Anyway quitting after taking 34k because you just aren't feeling it anymore is a really lovely thing to do.

Nintendo Kid
Aug 4, 2011

Trophy-ko says:
~death to capitalism~

Hilalry is 45


Jordan7hm posted:

The point is that it punishes the person who is basically scamming you out of money by ensuring he has no assets.

He didn't get punished though, he already didn't have assets, and if he gets them again in the future he won't have to turn them over. He had to deal with lawyers for a bit but he still took the money and didn't give anything back

Jordan7hm posted:

I think with a game it's pretty wonky though because its not like he promised it would be good, just that you would get it. As long as he releases something he would be off the hook, no?

Yeah he probably could. He might end up doing it if someone actually threatens a lawsuit.

Nemesis Of Moles
Jul 25, 2007


Assuming that the KSs ToS is upheld in court, it'd need to be something that at least appeared to be as good as it's portrayed. He couldn't release a half-finished version of the game missing advertised features.

The part of it being a small amount to each user wasn't meant to imply that the courts wouldn't go with the claim based on that, that's immaterial, its just not really a big enough motivation for most people. If there's one really annoyed dude in that group of backers though, sure.

Jack Trades
Nov 30, 2010

"In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god's blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my superior intelligence."
- Me


Wow, Occult Chronicles is really really good. I wish there were more horror/Lovecraft themed roguelikelikes.

Ignatius M. Meen
May 26, 2011


Jack Trades posted:

Wow, Occult Chronicles is really really good. I wish there were more horror/Lovecraft themed roguelikelikes.

It's taken me longer than it should have to realize it, but Occult Chronicles is basically a cleaned-up version of Arkham Horror. Incredibly great for that (and oh god can you imagine a multiplayer sequel? I want to give them my money already).

Chakan
Mar 30, 2011


Ignatius M. Meen posted:

...Occult Chronicles is basically a cleaned-up version of Arkham Horror...

The board game? Or is there a video game version that I need to check out, because that would be amazing. Either way, I'll def. be looking more into Occult Chronicles.

Jack Trades
Nov 30, 2010

"In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god's blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my superior intelligence."
- Me


Chakan posted:

The board game? Or is there a video game version that I need to check out, because that would be amazing. Either way, I'll def. be looking more into Occult Chronicles.

The boardgame. It really works within roguelike systems.

TOOT BOOT
May 25, 2010



Arkham Horror is a bit like a roguelike except it's a board game and not a computer game.

maketakunai
Jan 11, 2006

What do you mean,
"it's only a game"?!


To whom it may concern: you can now preorder Crypt of the Necrodancer! For pre-ordering, you get a 10% discount ($13.49 from $14.99) and a Steam key when it releases. That's right. Crypt of the Necrodancer's coming out on Steam.

They tweeted that they'll probably add another pre-order option to include the OST, so you might wanna wait a few days if you're interested in that.

Also, they updated the site to include a cinematic trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CENF14Iloxw

uPen
Jan 25, 2010

Zu Rodina!

maketakunai posted:

To whom it may concern: you can now preorder Crypt of the Necrodancer! For pre-ordering, you get a 10% discount ($13.49 from $14.99) and a Steam key when it releases. That's right. Crypt of the Necrodancer's coming out on Steam.

They tweeted that they'll probably add another pre-order option to include the OST, so you might wanna wait a few days if you're interested in that.

Also, they updated the site to include a cinematic trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CENF14Iloxw

I would pre-order this in a heartbeat but it's probably not going to go up on steam until it's actually out.

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maketakunai
Jan 11, 2006

What do you mean,
"it's only a game"?!


uPen posted:

I would pre-order this in a heartbeat but it's probably not going to go up on steam until it's actually out.
Yeah, they said it will probably only be available for pre-order on their site.

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