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StrixNebulosa
Feb 14, 2012

You cheated not only the game, but yourself.
But most of all, you cheated BABA



A Strange Aeon posted:

Unreal World seems really strange for a roguelike theme. Can someone sell me on it?

How do you feel about pretty hardcore semi-realistic survival in Norway? You might get attacked by bears. There are people you can trade with. You will have to chop down trees, and go fishing. It's got a great UI for a roguelike, is pretty engaging, and I suck at it. You can get it for free so try it.

I also like this review of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJBAmdXS_9E

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Wildtortilla
Jul 8, 2008


gently caress crafting. I don't think crafting is ever implemented well in any game. It's just a grind.

That's good to know about The Pit though. I put it on my Steam wishlist recently after looking at it a bunch of times over the years.

LordSloth
Mar 7, 2008

Disgruntled (IT) Employee


A Strange Aeon posted:

Unreal World seems really strange for a roguelike theme. Can someone sell me on it?

It always struck me as a openworld survival RPG. Iím not even sure it has a win condition. It qualifies as a roguelike, but thatís more in support of the survival experience rather than the other way around.

If you want to sell yourself, read this steam review to get hyped: https://steamcommunity.com/id/cavan...mmended/351700/

Or you can just download the previous version from the website and try it out yourself
http://www.unrealworld.fi/urw_downloads.html

No matter which specific game, I tend to bounce off the survival aspects when I donít expect to, the more so when the focus is on the survival as the core element. So I canít endorse this title because what I thought I wanted wasnít actually what I wanted when I last tried it.

PG-13 SEX DUNGEON
Dec 17, 2003



crafting is the dumbest loving thing in any game ever and i cannot understand how anyone enjoys it

Wildtortilla
Jul 8, 2008


Whoa, new Dead Cells free DLC on the way: There's a new free DLC on the way: https://youtu.be/GQ3TH9eTvGo

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

Hubris

Fun Shoe

Wildtortilla posted:

gently caress crafting. I don't think crafting is ever implemented well in any game. It's just a grind.

That's good to know about The Pit though. I put it on my Steam wishlist recently after looking at it a bunch of times over the years.

There is precisely one game I have played that had crafting that I thought was a net contribution to the game, and that game is Teleglitch. It's a survival horror game, so inventory space is at a premium. When you go through a teleporter, everything you aren't carrying is gone forever. Every level has a small, pre-set selection of crafting ingredients that are the same every game (for example, level 1 always has a small pipe, level 3 always has the first microchip, etc.). Thus crafting is mostly a build-customization option and a way to put some pressure on your inventory space. There's no grinding, it doesn't turn you into a hoarder, and you're not constantly juggling items as you run back and forth between the front lines and your stash.

Oh, and you can craft stuff at any time. Just hit shift, scroll through the list of craftables you currently have the ingredients for, click, and the item is made. Super simple and streamlined.

Dramicus
Mar 26, 2010


Grimey Drawer

Arzaac posted:

The Pit is like, 9/10ths of a good game that's completely ruined by the tedious bullshit you have to do to actually succeed.

There's item crafting, crafting is 100% required if you want to use any kind of reasonable weapon, you aren't told any of the recipes (and can either look them up or train a skill used solely for discovering recipes) and you frequently just don't get enough materials to craft anything of value.

Thanks. Guess I'll pass and play Caves of Qud instead.

Serephina
Nov 8, 2005



Yea, crafting is fine, it's just a logical extension of prior known-good game mechanics. Its usually just its horrendous implementation that lets it down. Like most things in games, it's all in the execution.

edit: On a tangent, I feel a similar way about damage number popups: If I ever see them in a trailer, it's a huuuge red flag. There's never any good reason for their existence apart from the dev being unable to communicate player damage through any more intuitive means. Could you imagine playing Street Fighter or Doom with it? ugh. Even if the game as a whole is a joy, there's that little red flag waving industriously in the background that I've decided to live with, eg Dead Cells and its vertical scaling. Merits of execution vs design-on-paper.

Serephina fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Aug 11, 2020

Farquar
Apr 30, 2003

Can't stop the funk.

Woah, that's an interesting take. Whenever I see the option for damage number pop-ups, I turn it on right away. I always like having more information about my actions.

Awesome!
Oct 17, 2008

Ready for adventure!



damage numbers are a case by case basis for me. having an option to turn them on or off is the best way to go.

Wildtortilla
Jul 8, 2008


TooMuchAbstraction posted:

There is precisely one game I have played that had crafting that I thought was a net contribution to the game, and that game is Teleglitch. It's a survival horror game, so inventory space is at a premium. When you go through a teleporter, everything you aren't carrying is gone forever. Every level has a small, pre-set selection of crafting ingredients that are the same every game (for example, level 1 always has a small pipe, level 3 always has the first microchip, etc.). Thus crafting is mostly a build-customization option and a way to put some pressure on your inventory space. There's no grinding, it doesn't turn you into a hoarder, and you're not constantly juggling items as you run back and forth between the front lines and your stash.

Oh, and you can craft stuff at any time. Just hit shift, scroll through the list of craftables you currently have the ingredients for, click, and the item is made. Super simple and streamlined.

This sounds like a really fun way to implement crafting.


Serephina posted:

edit: On a tangent, I feel a similar way about damage number popups: If I ever see them in a trailer, it's a huuuge red flag. There's never any good reason for their existence apart from the dev being unable to communicate player damage through any more intuitive means. Could you imagine playing Street Fighter or Doom with it? ugh. Even if the game as a whole is a joy, there's that little red flag waving industriously in the background that I've decided to live with, eg Dead Cells and its vertical scaling. Merits of execution vs design-on-paper.

Damage number pop ups are situational. In a fighter or shooter, probably not. But in an RPG, a game largely driven by tinkering with mechanics to change numbers, yea I'm probably gonna want to see those pop ups.

Elephant Parade
Jan 20, 2018



Damage popups communicate the amount of raw damage you're doing. They aren't precisely necessary in a game where health bars are displayed, but excluding them has a big drawback: when your attack takes off only a tiny sliver of an enemy's health bar, you can't immediately tell if that's due to the attack being ineffective or the enemy having a lot of HP. With damage popups, it's immediately clear which is going on, providing the player with extra information and ensuring that when they go up against something tanky, they feel like the enemy is strong and not like their character is weak.

Oh, and they also give a visceral sense of progression. Say a first-level fighter averages 10 damage per attack and a first-level monster has 50 hp, while a tenth-level fighter averages 100 damage per attack and a tenth-level monster has 500 hp. If all that's displayed is the monster's hralth bar, the first-level fighter's attack and the tenth-level fighter's attack have the same visible impact: they lop off 20% of the enemy's health bar. It's as if no progression has happened at all. But with damage popups, the player can see their damage increase as they level, even if enemy HP scales with it.

I wouldn't want damage popups in a game like Final Fight or Doom because those games are uninterested in numerical character progression, meaning that the popups would remain the same over the course of the game and therefore be completely meaningless.

madjackmcmad
May 27, 2008

Look, I'm startin' to believe some of the stuff the cult guy's been saying, it's starting to make a lot of sense.

Serephina posted:

edit: On a tangent, I feel a similar way about damage number popups: If I ever see them in a trailer, it's a huuuge red flag. There's never any good reason for their existence apart from the dev being unable to communicate player damage through any more intuitive means.

I'm not sure what's more intuitive than displaying right there where the player's focus is. It feels like asking the player to look away from the action and towards the log is a bit clunk. And I'm very much pro combat logs, it's good to be able to read through the information at your own pace and look for details.

You can point to health bars and see them shrink, but the difference between I can kill this monster in six hits vs I can kill it in five is tough to quickly judge. You switch weapons, swing, and... maybe the same amount of the bar is gone? Kinda?

I am genuinely curious as to what you might propose as more intuitive, because there's infinity things I haven't even considered and I want to learn more.

Kanos
Sep 6, 2006

was there a time when speedwagon didn't get trolled

Serephina posted:

Yea, crafting is fine, it's just a logical extension of prior known-good game mechanics. Its usually just its horrendous implementation that lets it down. Like most things in games, it's all in the execution.

edit: On a tangent, I feel a similar way about damage number popups: If I ever see them in a trailer, it's a huuuge red flag. There's never any good reason for their existence apart from the dev being unable to communicate player damage through any more intuitive means. Could you imagine playing Street Fighter or Doom with it? ugh. Even if the game as a whole is a joy, there's that little red flag waving industriously in the background that I've decided to live with, eg Dead Cells and its vertical scaling. Merits of execution vs design-on-paper.

Being able to objectively see how much damage each option is doing is extremely useful for the player to distinguish between the options available to them without having to consult third party sources. I'm a big proponent of every design element in games that makes it less necessary to read a wiki to understand exactly how the game works.

Street Fighter(and basically every other fighting game) has a training mode where you see exact numbers for everything you're doing, and anyone even passingly interested in getting good at fighting games at a level beyond doing some funsies runs through arcade mode spends a lot of time in training mode.

SolidSnakesBandana
Jul 1, 2007

Infinite ammo


My issue with Risk of Rain 2 was that you can't see what items do before you pick them up, which led to a situation where it feels like I have to memorize what every item in the game does in order to play it properly. Has that ever been addressed?

dyzzy
Dec 22, 2009

argh


Nope but that would be a good idea for a UI mod. I think BoI has something like that

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

Hubris

Fun Shoe

I've honestly never been a fan of "memorize these 500 icons so you can know what this thing does before it permanently glues itself to your character" as a gameplay concept.

Elephant Parade
Jan 20, 2018



TooMuchAbstraction posted:

I've honestly never been a fan of "memorize these 500 icons so you can know what this thing does before it permanently glues itself to your character" as a gameplay concept.

Cinara
Jul 15, 2007


SolidSnakesBandana posted:

My issue with Risk of Rain 2 was that you can't see what items do before you pick them up, which led to a situation where it feels like I have to memorize what every item in the game does in order to play it properly. Has that ever been addressed?

There's a mod that fixes it, and yea like everyone quoted it's a dumb design choice. One of the unlockable characters in Neon Abyss even has seeing what items do as his special power and it's so stupid. But that's how Isaac did things so obviously every game should continue to do the same.

END ME SCOOB
Mar 27, 2007

Like, I shoulda known the dog would smell it, man. I was way too high to bury him deep enough! I guess we gotta do this, huh? Alright, Scoob, get ready for my full power! DON'T HOLD BACK, PAL!

ZOINKS!

TooMuchAbstraction posted:

I've honestly never been a fan of "memorize these 500 icons so you can know what this thing does before it permanently glues itself to your character" as a gameplay concept.

I am so loving glad Demoncrawl gives you both an encyclopedia to search for effects you've seen, and lets you hover over a merchant for a second to see a crawl display their item's stats/effect. It's a lovely little thing I wish more titles would account for.

Elephant Parade
Jan 20, 2018



imo relics should have their effects hidden the first time, and only the first tine, you pick them up. gives a sense of discovery without forcing memorization

Cinara
Jul 15, 2007


Elephant Parade posted:

imo relics should have their effects hidden the first time, and only the first time, you pick them up. gives a sense of discovery without forcing memorization

Arzaac
Jan 2, 2020


The most recent Risk of Rain 2 update doesn't exactly address this, but there's a new interactable on stages called the Scrapper. It allows you to pick (from a menu) exactly what item you don't want and turns it into scarp. The scrap is then automatically used first at the next 3D printer you find.

It doesn't exactly fix the problem, but it lets you undo mistakes and is just a nice little band-aid.

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


One of the things that made me eventually turn on Gungeon is that they went to all those lengths to make an in-game encyclopedia (Ammonomicon?) but it tells you precisely nothing useful about anything. Playing with a wiki open is not a good thing.

Snooze Cruise
Feb 16, 2013

look-
a post,


atelier is good and its just crafting...

Wildtortilla
Jul 8, 2008


bees x1000 posted:

One of the things that made me eventually turn on Gungeon is that they went to all those lengths to make an in-game encyclopedia (Ammonomicon?) but it tells you precisely nothing useful about anything. Playing with a wiki open is not a good thing.

It's also slow as heck to open everytime you want to look at something.

ZypherIM
Nov 8, 2010

"I want to see what she's in love with."



Arzaac posted:

The most recent Risk of Rain 2 update doesn't exactly address this, but there's a new interactable on stages called the Scrapper. It allows you to pick (from a menu) exactly what item you don't want and turns it into scarp. The scrap is then automatically used first at the next 3D printer you find.

It doesn't exactly fix the problem, but it lets you undo mistakes and is just a nice little band-aid.

I have a complaint about this exact thing, because when you're scrapping poo poo it doesn't say anything on it. So uh, you still need to memorize what each item does so you know if you want to scrap it or not.

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


bees x1000 posted:

One of the things that made me eventually turn on Gungeon is that they went to all those lengths to make an in-game encyclopedia (Ammonomicon?) but it tells you precisely nothing useful about anything. Playing with a wiki open is not a good thing.
You can drop most items in Gungeon anyways I think. Ok not helpful in a store where you really care I suppose.

Elephant Parade
Jan 20, 2018



wish gungeon showed item effects on pickup instead of unfunny one-liners

Snooze Cruise
Feb 16, 2013

look-
a post,


i wish controls and movement didn't feel like you were playing with a waterful

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


I wish you were allowed to actually use your guns rather than sticking with the ammo saving starter for half of every run while praying for damage ups

Wildtortilla
Jul 8, 2008


bees x1000 posted:

I wish you were allowed to actually use your guns rather than sticking with the ammo saving starter for half of every run while praying for damage ups

If you're referencing Gungeon this isn't a thing anymore. Ammo drops are way way way more common now. I used to use starting weapons well into Floor 3 and now I rarely use 'em outside of Floor 1.

bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


Wildtortilla posted:

If you're referencing Gungeon this isn't a thing anymore. Ammo drops are way way way more common now. I used to use starting weapons well into Floor 3 and now I rarely use 'em outside of Floor 1.

oh that's good, one less reason to dislike the game

Zereth
Jul 8, 2003




Wasn't the root cause of that it checking your currently equipped gun to see how low it was when deciding if you needed more ammo? So if you were using the infinite starter gun to save ammo it through you didn't need ammo?

IronicDongz
Aug 18, 2013

there he goes

Snooze Cruise posted:

i wish controls and movement didn't feel like you were playing with a waterful
movement in gungeon is very snappy and responsive though

Elephant Parade
Jan 20, 2018



gungeon movement is snappy but somewhat slow, and the maps are full of long corridors and giant rooms, so there's a lot of downtime

taqueso
Mar 8, 2004









Fun Shoe

If I am trying to get better at a game, I like the damage popups. If I could turn it on in fighting games I would for that task. And you can go into training modes in some fighting games that have that. It should be an option if possible imo.

PG-13 SEX DUNGEON
Dec 17, 2003



TooMuchAbstraction posted:

There is precisely one game I have played that had crafting that I thought was a net contribution to the game, and that game is Teleglitch. It's a survival horror game, so inventory space is at a premium. When you go through a teleporter, everything you aren't carrying is gone forever. Every level has a small, pre-set selection of crafting ingredients that are the same every game (for example, level 1 always has a small pipe, level 3 always has the first microchip, etc.). Thus crafting is mostly a build-customization option and a way to put some pressure on your inventory space. There's no grinding, it doesn't turn you into a hoarder, and you're not constantly juggling items as you run back and forth between the front lines and your stash.

Oh, and you can craft stuff at any time. Just hit shift, scroll through the list of craftables you currently have the ingredients for, click, and the item is made. Super simple and streamlined.

I have 80 hours in teleglitch and I never looked at that as crafting, just upgrading. It all happened instantly, like a scroll of enchant weapon. Your options were immediate and never required recipes or time.

On that topic, teleglitch is a wonderful game that suffered from low ammo but was otherwise fun as hell

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bees x1000
Jun 11, 2020

Love and Anger


Teleglitch is a great game that deserved to be expanded upon.

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