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Ciaphas
Nov 20, 2005

> BEWARE, COWARD




Cinara posted:

Does that make this discussion a roguelike?

life is the ultimate roguelike, my friend

namaste

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megane
Jun 20, 2008




well, firstly, it's actually pronounced ro-GWELL-i-kee,

Impermanent
Apr 1, 2010








rogue | traditional roguelike | roguelike | ??mystery zone, maybe "traditional roguelite" | roguelite | traditional roguelitelike | roguelitelike | rouge

Lunatic Sledge
Jun 8, 2013

choose your own horror isekai sci-fi Souls-like urban fantasy gamer simulator adventure

or don't?


Ciaphas posted:

life is the ultimate roguelike, my friend

namaste

strong disagree, the balance is atrocious and the progression system is too heavily dependent on RNG

Jazerus
May 24, 2011



life is a roguelite

Phigs
Jan 23, 2019


The definition of roguelike is much like the universe in that it is constantly expanding. And also because the universe is random and has permadeath so is also a roguelike.

Lunatic Sledge
Jun 8, 2013

choose your own horror isekai sci-fi Souls-like urban fantasy gamer simulator adventure

or don't?


it would be funny to actually name a game Rougelight

Duderclese
Aug 30, 2003
I'm the gay younger brother of UnkleBoB and Buddha Stalin


Well you see due to the Berlin interpretation:

I adore this thread, this is a tired topic.

Theswarms
Dec 20, 2005


Cinara posted:

Does that make this discussion a roguelike?

procedurely generated, restarts every time it dies, filled with monsters, no meta-progression.

It's a rogue, not a roguelike.

Ciaphas
Nov 20, 2005

> BEWARE, COWARD




Jazerus posted:

life is a roguelite

where's the part where i get another try with more power

Jeza
Feb 13, 2011

The cries of the dead are terrible indeed; you should try not to hear them.


Ciaphas posted:

where's the part where i get another try with more power

only a few religions believe in metaprogression

Motherfucker
Jul 16, 2011



Ciaphas posted:

where's the part where i get another try with more power

You're a human now so this is it. You started as a bacteria.

rldmoto
Oct 17, 2011



megane posted:

well, firstly, it's actually pronounced ro-GWELL-i-kee,

This is the best post in the thread and will have lifelong influence

TooMuchAbstraction
Oct 14, 2012

Hubris

Fun Shoe

rldmoto posted:

This is the best post in the thread and will have lifelong influence

Indeed, I nominate it for the next thread title.

Ciaphas
Nov 20, 2005

> BEWARE, COWARD




Jeza posted:

only a few religions believe in metaprogression

can i turn off hardcore?

poemdexter
Feb 18, 2005

Hooray Indie Games!



College Slice

I personally want more rougelikes. Downwell is a perfect example. https://downwellgame.com/

poemdexter fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Oct 10, 2020

omeg
Sep 3, 2012



I've been duoing Terraria again with my gf and started to get the itch to try HC again, this time in the new master mode. This will go well

Glazius
Jul 22, 2007

Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.



Clapping Larry

So here's a... civ builder roguelite? Dwarf Fortress roguelite?



It's called As Far As The Eye. It's very light on metaprogression, mostly just unlocking new traits for the trait pool, but if you want some nice 1-2 hour runs of a civ-style builder, it's pretty solid.

The goal is to shepherd your tribe of mask-wearing balloon enthusiasts as far as "The Eye", the one point of shelter in a world that's slowly flooding, and you're limited in the time you have to spend in each place, because flooding. The "roguelike" feel is that not only do you have randomized maps, but they're arranged in a progression tree. So you can start out with a choice between, like, a path to a big lake area full of protective auras that needs you to build up wood and stone, or a path to a small canyon that needs you to master growing, gathering, and stone mining. Your units get experience as they do tasks, like Dwarf Fortress, and there's a little skill tree as they get to the advanced levels.

Disasters will periodically happen as you go, and they'll get faster as you're wasteful, overbuilding resources to put a building in an optimal place or harvesting too much from a map and having to leave some behind. Every map also ends with a major disaster, penalizing you for your last few turns in place, so it can be good to leave early.

You can build two types of buildings - "permanent" ones you leave behind, that only need wood and maybe something else, and "mobile" buildings that can be packed up and relocated both on the map and between maps, but are more expensive. You only have limited space on the caravan and it's got to hold both the mobile buildings and all of the resources you want to take with you, but you can increase that storage space both by having your units pick up stray pack animals on the maps and by researching expansions with knowledge, a resource that you get by fully exploring maps or having experienced people do a job.

There are four different modes available, for short and long journeys. Come from the West and that's your basic start, blank slates with a positive trait each and plenty of food. Come from the South and you begin with one extra guy (and a free camp extension to stick him in) and all your guys start with a positive and negative trait, in addition to having mastered the basics of a random profession. Good for exploring the higher regions of the skill tree. Come from the East and turn up the disasters, start with one less guy and they'll always have the trait that makes them count for two, so your basic camp only holds two people. In addition, everyone you start with or recruit has a trait that slows down your experience gain but turns it into knowledge, so it's much more a game about climbing the tech tree. Come from the North and disasters are much less frequent, but mostly that's just replacing random disasters with a constant bitter cold, so addition to keeping fed you also need to worry about keeping everyone warm.

Some tips for starting out:
- Grab pack animals when you can, they're useful not only for space but for dedicated extensions to the camp - extra housing for more units, trading in desperate circumstances, improving all efficiency and doubling up on buildings, and improving your research capabilities. Extensions can only be built directly adjacent to the big central caravan beast, so be careful where you park him 'cause he ain't moving until it's time to go.
- Explore. Clearing every blank space on a map is a big kick in the knowledge and finding empty space to put down all your craft buildings can sometimes be challenging.
- You're going to need some kind of cooking building to make the various food items into edible rations, but try not to go too far over on them - especially if you build a mobile cook station and can drop it down in the next map, carting along the raw ingredients is actually more space-efficient than what they cook into.
- Don't sleep on building upgrades, especially for the mobile buildings. You can learn to preload the entire recipe tree at a cook station or herd those fuzzy llamas into a pasture to shear them all in place.
- Always go say hi to friendly caravans that show up, they're how you get more units, though you can also make a trade in your advantage or beg for a smaller favor for cheap or free.
- Whatever you start with, you're going to want to dedicate one unit to getting builder experience so they can build all your mobile buildings and get the advanced bonuses, and give at least one unit experience in gathering herbs and brewing potions so they can get good at dealing with goody huts and/or protective auras later on.

Glazius fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Oct 10, 2020

SKULL.GIF
Jan 20, 2017




This looks really interesting, I might give this a try.

Was reading over some of the user reviews and this one popped out at me.

quote:

The last thing would be that there is no long term progression, even if it is a rogue like. The only meaningful long term progression is unlocking more randomly rolled traits.

Serephina
Nov 8, 2005



Yea, Jesus wept.

Derail:
Language is an interesting thing; words change their meaning over time, and sometimes the entomology is kinda fuzzy. See: "Gay". I have no stake in the word and just think it's interesting, but I do have a stake in other phrases such as Literally and Roguelike, and I will die on those hills.

Ontopic: Cogmind had a huge update a month ago and I've not gotten around to playing it yet. Anyone care to spoil what I need to trigger the new content, or is it just 'trigger the Warlord event and finish the game in any way'?

Glazius
Jul 22, 2007

Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.



Clapping Larry

SKULL.GIF posted:

This looks really interesting, I might give this a try.

Was reading over some of the user reviews and this one popped out at me.




Yeah, that's another reason I brought it up - it's a game with very little metaprogression mechanics, other than having to unlock the tribes W -> S -> E -> N, and needing to do a tribe's short journey to unlock its long journey. You get better through learning the maps and mechanics.

Ciaphas
Nov 20, 2005

> BEWARE, COWARD




Serephina posted:

Yea, Jesus wept.

Derail:
Language is an interesting thing; words change their meaning over time, and sometimes the entomology is kinda fuzzy. See: "Gay". I have no stake in the word and just think it's interesting, but I do have a stake in other phrases such as Literally and Roguelike, and I will die on those hills.

Ontopic: Cogmind had a huge update a month ago and I've not gotten around to playing it yet. Anyone care to spoil what I need to trigger the new content, or is it just 'trigger the Warlord event and finish the game in any way'?

The etymology's as weird as the insects



(e) oh hey i got to be a pedant in the roguelike thread

beer gas canister
Oct 30, 2007

W E L C O M E T O M Y C U S T O M T I T L E ! ! !


Plaster Town Cop

Glazius posted:

So here's a... civ builder roguelite? Dwarf Fortress roguelite?



It's called As Far As The Eye. It's very light on metaprogression, mostly just unlocking new traits for the trait pool, but if you want some nice 1-2 hour runs of a civ-style builder, it's pretty solid.
Definitely going to give this shot

DACK FAYDEN
Feb 25, 2013

Bear Witness

Serephina posted:

Language is an interesting thing; words change their meaning over time, and sometimes the entomology is kinda fuzzy. See: "Gay". I have no stake in the word and just think it's interesting, but I do have a stake in other phrases such as Literally and Roguelike, and I will die on those hills.
oh man LITERALLY A ROGUELIKE would be a good username

Impermanent
Apr 1, 2010








Imo the reason people are pedants about the term roguelike is bc games like dungeon crawl stone soup are a niche of a niche of a niche and imo it's defensible to be defensive of something so small.

Although it's not like the bandying about of roguelike has withered the genre at all. Caves of Qud and (arguably) dwarf fortress are close to mainstream, and there's so many new roguelikes it's hard to keep track of them, Even moreso than the days of infinite *bands. Hades is bringing a lot of attention in to a kind of repetition-and-discovery playstyle that is very close to the roots of the genre.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

This isn’t really an important point, but a hill I’ll always die on is that Crypt of the Necrodancer is almost as “roguelike” as NetHack or Crawl, and it makes sense to think of it as part of the same genre. Among the modern generation of games influenced by Rogue and its descendants, it stands alone (maybe with Spelunky) as having the cleverest design.

The Moon Monster
Dec 30, 2005
THIS CUSTOM TITLE WILL COME IN HANDY WHILE LURKING


Aside from the meta-progression Necrodancer ticks pretty much all of the boxes. It's a rhythm game which isn't exactly normal for a roguelike, but you can even turn that off if you want.

Impermanent posted:

Imo the reason people are pedants about the term roguelike is bc games like dungeon crawl stone soup are a niche of a niche of a niche and imo it's defensible to be defensive of something so small.

Although it's not like the bandying about of roguelike has withered the genre at all. Caves of Qud and (arguably) dwarf fortress are close to mainstream, and there's so many new roguelikes it's hard to keep track of them, Even moreso than the days of infinite *bands. Hades is bringing a lot of attention in to a kind of repetition-and-discovery playstyle that is very close to the roots of the genre.

Yeah, it's just kind of a bummer since its use as a marketing term for indie platformers/ccgs with some amount of randomization has completely eclipsed the actual roguelike scene. 90% of the time I hear someone use the term it's "I hate roguelikes" referring to stuff like Rogue Legacy or Slay the Spire from someone who has never even heard of a "true roguelike". To be fair they probably wouldn't be super into ADoM either...

The Moon Monster fucked around with this message at 13:14 on Oct 11, 2020

No Wave
Sep 18, 2005

Yogg-Saron fan #1


Necrodancer's only all-stages mode metaprogression is character unlocks.

Angry Diplomat
Nov 6, 2009

Winner of the TSR Memorial Award for Excellence In Grogging

And pretty much every character beyond Cadence makes the game significantly more challenging in one way or another.

Ciaphas
Nov 20, 2005

> BEWARE, COWARD




I was going to ask if that form of metaprogression even counted, since it appears to be just unlocks, not making your character significantly better from the word go.

Never realized how roguelike-definition-meeting Necrodancer is before now, though. Neat observation

Glazius
Jul 22, 2007

Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.



Clapping Larry

Cleared the last short journey for As Far As The Eye. Wow, the northern tribe is a challenge, especially if you have paths that need wool. I had a maximum expert with a 50% bonus efficiency trait and I still only barely made it to the end.

Thirsty Dog
May 31, 2007



Metaproguelikes

omeg
Sep 3, 2012



Decided to finally try Cogmind "seriously". Last time I played was a long time ago with some ancient beta. Since it's now basically complete, I guess there's no reason not to.

I managed to get to -4/Armory which I guess is decent. Had no idea what areas I was going to, wanted to just get the feeling how the game plays. Shooting almost everything up to around -6 was pretty easy. Then I decided to grab some more weapons after a big fight instead of going through a visible exit and things started to go bad with more reinforcements. Turns out you really should have some matter storage (or collecting ability) when you use kinetic weapons Also having four rail guns was probably too many. Not having an AOE gun was bad too.

https://cogmind-api.gridsagegames.c...Zk8n4L7Zs6b.txt

victrix
Oct 30, 2007




BPM is both rougelike and roguelite

Awesome!
Oct 17, 2008

Ready for adventure!



did they end up adjusting the random disasters in as far as the eye? when it launched all i was seeing was "good game other than the fact it will completely gently caress you over randomly" which didnt sound like much fun.

SKULL.GIF
Jan 20, 2017




I tried As Far As The Eye for a hour or so this morning, finished the campaign/tutorial and messed around a bit in a regular game before heading to work.

It's closer to the Anno games or Dwarf Fortress than it is to a 4X. Your workers are constantly juggling resources and expansion while dealing with disasters. I think they meant for the game to be very calming: there's no enemies or monsters or anything, you're just making your way through the wild with your little village and trying to hit resource benchmarks. But at the same time the game is get tense with the constant time pressure and the vagaries that force you to be always on your guard and ready to react? It's an internal contradiction that I'm not sure if the game is robust enough to really uphold.

One thing that was very apparent to me, though, in the first 60-90 minutes: even with the beautiful graphics, comprehensibility is a mess. Which workers are doing what? Where are they going? Should I interrupt them now or wait until they're done with a gathering task? The UI is kinda all over the place. I'm sure it'll improve with experience.

Glazius
Jul 22, 2007

Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.



Clapping Larry

SKULL.GIF posted:

I tried As Far As The Eye for a hour or so this morning, finished the campaign/tutorial and messed around a bit in a regular game before heading to work.

It's closer to the Anno games or Dwarf Fortress than it is to a 4X. Your workers are constantly juggling resources and expansion while dealing with disasters. I think they meant for the game to be very calming: there's no enemies or monsters or anything, you're just making your way through the wild with your little village and trying to hit resource benchmarks. But at the same time the game is get tense with the constant time pressure and the vagaries that force you to be always on your guard and ready to react? It's an internal contradiction that I'm not sure if the game is robust enough to really uphold.

One thing that was very apparent to me, though, in the first 60-90 minutes: even with the beautiful graphics, comprehensibility is a mess. Which workers are doing what? Where are they going? Should I interrupt them now or wait until they're done with a gathering task? The UI is kinda all over the place. I'm sure it'll improve with experience.

The game is definitely challenging and it's not uncommon to see your survival engine stall out or not come online in time. Usually I just quit out before that happens, I don't like to hear them starving to death.

One thing to keep in mind is that the resource cycle is a complete loop - units take on a class at a resource building (or optionally at the caravan for pepkins, wood, pack beasts, and anything else you've researched) walk to the hex with the resource, gather for three turns (including the turn where they arrive), and return to the building, slowed 1 MP by the resource they're carrying. If this cycle is interrupted at any point, it's entirely broken and has to start over from the beginning, so unless it's a matter of life and death the time to interrupt a unit is when they're listed as "going to work" or have 2 turns left.

Ciaphas
Nov 20, 2005

> BEWARE, COWARD




victrix posted:

BPM is both rougelike and roguelite

Lutha Mahtin
Oct 10, 2010

Your brokebrain sin is absolved...go and shitpost no more!


perc2 posted:

Oh look it's yet another discussion about what is and isn't a roguelike. This definitely hasn't been happening since the dawn of time and boring the gently caress out of everyone

Cinara posted:

Does that make this discussion a roguelike?

well, the topic sure doesn't seem to have permadeath

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Voxx
Jul 28, 2009

I'll give 'em a hold
and a break to breathe
And if they can't play nice
I won't play with 'em at all


Lutha Mahtin posted:

well, the topic sure doesn't seem to have permadeath

it can be modded in

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