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BaconCopter posted:Don't start as the pilot? I hope AG&D does away with all the weird little manipulations like not picking up guns until you beat the boss to force a gun drop, and not picking up keys until you spawn the shop (which ISTR forces the shop to generate a key), and so on. At most the game should reward you for skilled play, not for knowing how to abuse its anti-death-spiral mechanisms.
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Jul 19, 2018 02:19
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People said they removed the forced shop key but it has worked every time for me.
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Jul 19, 2018 02:33
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Does Gungeon still do the "you have to beat the boss without getting hit to get an extra heart" thing?
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Jul 19, 2018 03:05
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Evil Mastermind posted:Does Gungeon still do the "you have to beat the boss without getting hit to get an extra heart" thing? Yes.
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Jul 19, 2018 03:08
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juggalo baby coffin posted:gungeon should give you a guaranteed new gun on the first floor. too many runs wind up with me getting just some lovely passive items that would be great later on, but fighting the boss of floor 1 with that wretched pilot pistol sucks rear end. Don't know if this is something they added early for the Switch version (which will get rolled into the AG&D update coming for free on all platforms tomorrow) but when I played it most recently on Switch, one chest on the first floor was 100% guaranteed to be a new gun. Keys are also easier to get to the point where you can basically always unlock all chests on a floor unless you're gunning for the secret level
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Jul 19, 2018 03:10
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One of the two regular chests on each floor has always been a gun.
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Jul 19, 2018 03:11
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Silver2195 posted:NetHack mostly avoids this by having notoriously easy boss fights (with the biggest exceptions being bosses who don't appear in all games, like Demogorgon and Master Kaen - and with the scare monster buff in 3.6.x, even Master Kaen isn't as scary as he used to be). You still need advance knowledge to beat many of the bosses, but the advance knowledge is usually something fairly straightforward, especially compared to the outside knowledge needed for other aspects of the game. In Nethack I consider "the final boss" to be the entire ascension run -- do the entire game backwards, with enemy spawns set at their maximum level the whole way and Rodney periodically teleporting in to dick you about. There's some gear checks at the end in the form of the Elemental Planes, but in general I like this approach a lot more than Dredmor's "one really beefy enemy and if you kill it you win" approach -- although I do think the Nethack main branch could stand to be about half as long as it is. TooMuchAbstraction posted:The irritating thing about Dredmor is that the boss used to be a relative pushover. A crossbow and a few Eldritch Bolts, or mass-stacking other sources of damage-over-time, was pretty much all you needed. Then they decided to amp his resistances out the wazoo so now you need large amounts of extremely focused (single-shot) damage if you want any of it to get through his resists. Even these days, you can handle Dredmor fairly roughly by stockpiling high-end throwing weapons and crossbow bolts and just completely unloading on him, as long as you have a mobility skill that will let you keep out of melee range. And that's something any character can do without interfering with their build otherwise. The biggest threat there is that he might get the drop on you right out of the staircase. Also, IIRC, he doesn't resist petrification, so if you picked Battle Geology you can just petrify him and go to town. Oops.
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Jul 19, 2018 03:20
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Evil Mastermind posted:Does Gungeon still do the "you have to beat the boss without getting hit to get an extra heart" thing? Gungeon has a lot of flaws but I'll defend that mechanic to the death honestly. It makes early-game bosses feel like less of a slog once you've gotten good -- I can easily beat any of the first floor bosses with the starting pistol taking one or maybe two hits but having a significant reward for mastering a boss like that, which will help my run later on in the parts of the game I'm NOT so good at, manages to keep those early fights tense and exciting. People complain that it rewards the players who need it least but there's a BIG difference between no-hitting the first floor boss and simply surviving some of the fourth floor bosses -- if you can't do the former you probably can't swing the latter anyway whether you have the extra health or not
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Jul 19, 2018 03:32
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Yes, Dredmore, as a boss, can be pretty rough if you don't have the raw power or any viable counter to his stats and gimmicks. Usually, high-end throwing weapons and bolts coupled with two mirror shields do the trick. Also, if you have moderately strong magic power, pearled wands are nuts against him.
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Jul 19, 2018 09:00
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Quoting myself from four years ago with the hot Dredmor tipsquote:Magical Law really owns the boss. Actually Magical Law in general is just full of bonkers-good spells, but among the many things it does well is let you trivialize the boss. With Writ of Counterspelling and a Mirror Shield you reflect almost all attack spells (all spells if you have any more reflect like Ancestral Body Paint). Then with Rune of Objection, you throw the acid debuff or vortex debuff back at him. If memory serves the only spell he actually has that can hit you through this is the voltaic one, so just pack a ton of that resist and engage him with water or some open-air obstacle between him and you.
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Jul 19, 2018 11:24
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oh hey people are being sad about dredmor having the seed of something really cool in there hidden by behind all the mediocre garbage same
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Jul 19, 2018 14:29
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Pyrokinesis him down.
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Jul 19, 2018 17:46
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Is this big Gungeon update the one that unifies the PC version with the improvements that were made on other platforms? I remember some posts here months ago saying that the console ports fixed and tuned some of the annoyances of the PC version, so I've been holding off on getting the game until then since I don't have a relevant console to play it on.
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Jul 19, 2018 20:20
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dredmore final boss really blows if you're an all-in melee build, which is fine for the whole rest of the game.
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Jul 19, 2018 20:46
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Lutha Mahtin posted:Is this big Gungeon update the one that unifies the PC version with the improvements that were made on other platforms? I remember some posts here months ago saying that the console ports fixed and tuned some of the annoyances of the PC version, so I've been holding off on getting the game until then since I don't have a relevant console to play it on. Correct, and adds a ton of new stuff beyond that. The only version that was "ahead" was the Switch version because it was only released at the end of last year when some of these improvements were already completed
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Jul 19, 2018 20:48
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I'm still mystified by the lack of online co-op in Gungeon. What a shame.
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Jul 19, 2018 20:58
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Quicksilver6 posted:I'm still mystified by the lack of online co-op in Gungeon. What a shame. Does coop still force you to play as the lovely support wizard, cause if so, who would ever want to join a randos game? Even if the coop in Gungeon was good (hopefully they've made changes in this update!), online multiplayer is a thousand times more work than local, even more so after the fact.
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Jul 19, 2018 21:12
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Also, the game already chugs a bit in some cases - playing in Turbo Mode against a very bullet-hell boss while using spammy guns and spammy passives (like Scattershot + Flak Bullets) can lag the game into bullet time as is, and I can't help but wonder how that would interact with, say, one player having a poor connection.
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Jul 19, 2018 21:28
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Both very valid points, although I like the cultist and their dart gun default weapon. They've also given reasonable detailed explanations that it would be a months long project. I suppose in my mind I thought "Well, I haven't even heard anything in a million years" and was hoping it would be snuck in there. More realistically they've been focusing on the port versions and that's why I haven't heard anything until just now.
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Jul 19, 2018 22:01
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Truspeaker posted:Does coop still force you to play as the lovely support wizard, cause if so, who would ever want to join a randos game? Even if the coop in Gungeon was good (hopefully they've made changes in this update!), online multiplayer is a thousand times more work than local, even more so after the fact. It's more work, certainly, but not "a thousand times more work". However, your multiplayer implementation for Steam is separate from Xbox Live which is separate from PSN, etc. Unity's built in multiplayer may not be great, but it's not like the concept of "twin stick shooter over the internet" is somehow impossible or unthinkable. The real answer is that the company didn't believe that online multiplayer would provide enough of a return to warrant the increased dev time. And you know what? They're probably right.
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Jul 19, 2018 22:06
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People always underestimate how much work it is to add on multiplayer to a game. It's not only incredibly technically difficult to get a playable experience (networks are hard, even when you have libraries to help you), it also wreaks havoc with gameplay balance. What do you do about having twice as many players around? Doubling the number of enemies is a bad idea, so probably is doubling their health. Does the AI understand having multiple targets available? It gets even more pernicious when you're talking about bullet hell games, which often have a "safe zone" in the pattern that the player is expected to remain in. If two players split up then only one can possibly be in the safe zone... There's a reason (a lot of reasons) why very few games originally designed for singleplayer have had multiplayer added after the fact.
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Jul 19, 2018 23:10
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hito posted:Quoting myself from four years ago with the hot Dredmor tips
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Jul 19, 2018 23:11
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Playing Synthetik makes Enter the Gungeon's guns feel that much shittier. I sure love dumping half a mag of nerf darts into every trash mob.
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Jul 20, 2018 01:52
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Quicksilver6 posted:I'm still mystified by the lack of online co-op in Gungeon. What a shame. Parsec has pretty effectively made any local coop game an online coop game, as long as you have a reasonably good connection. It’s really well executed.
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Jul 20, 2018 01:58
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It kind of seems like the AG&D update didn't actually address, uh, any of the actual problems I have with Gungeon now that it's dropped. That's extremely disappointing.
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Jul 20, 2018 02:05
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Gungeon gets so close to being really good and it's disappointing that they took another big swing and didn't get it right.
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Jul 20, 2018 02:33
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Mighty Dicktron posted:It kind of seems like the AG&D update didn't actually address, uh, any of the actual problems I have with Gungeon now that it's dropped. 
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Jul 20, 2018 02:44
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ammo is a lot more common than it used to be especially with the new red ammo boxes which give some ammo to all your weapons, keys seem more common, etc. Time to kill is basically the same and I wish bullet hell was shorter, but it's definitely an improvement and also adds more content.
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Jul 20, 2018 02:55
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Turbo mode is what you want if you feel the gameplay's too slow. Definitely makes a difference.
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Jul 20, 2018 03:33
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Did AG&D add a bunch more passive items? Because my #1 complaint is that every drat item is a new gun but you already have multiple guns once you get rolling and I want more of an Isaac-style passive experience.
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Jul 20, 2018 04:03
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Mighty Dicktron posted:It kind of seems like the AG&D update didn't actually address, uh, any of the actual problems I have with Gungeon now that it's dropped. Pretty much. Most of my main complaints still exist (although some have improved a little):
Samuel Clemens posted:Turbo mode is what you want if you feel the gameplay's too slow. Definitely makes a difference. This isn't the slow most people are talking about. The player/enemy movement and bullet speed may be faster, but HP values are still the same and will still drag on about as long as Classic speed. People complaining about the speed of the game would probably prefer a mode that doubled all bullet damage (player and monster) over a move faster mode.
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Jul 20, 2018 04:08
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Samuel Clemens posted:Turbo mode is what you want if you feel the gameplay's too slow. Definitely makes a difference. LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Jul 20, 2018 |
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Jul 20, 2018 04:11
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I did finally net my first Gungeon win today with AG&D, but there are still some definite problems, like runs where I get no ammo for a floor and a half and I'm forced to go into the boss with nothing at all, or enemies just taking too fuckin' long to kill. The run itself isn't really that long I guess (it's only like 35-40 minutes?) but it just feels sluggish and the swinginess of the RNG is absolutely absurd; good drops don't win a run for you but bad drops absolutely will lose one if you aren't incredibly good and knowledgeable. Synthetik definitely doesn't have the polish or love in its own product that Gungeon does, but it is quite simply more fun to play and the gunfeel is miles ahead. Also they added this really hysterical item called the Infuriating Note, which can appear up to six times in chests of at least green rarity and does nothing. So if you bought a key to open the last chest, well you can just go gently caress yourself, idiot. And Turbo Mode is trash, fights still last a while, you just get hit more because it's a lot more difficult for no gain. It is so frustratingly close to being an amazing game but little things just make it not very great.
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Jul 20, 2018 04:45
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I dunno, at this point I'm pretty sure it's doing what it's meant to do. And I, for one, actually like it being like this. Having a slower, more technical top down roguelite shooter is great for me, I really really dislike the super fast mega twitchy Nuclear Throne. Although the slower and technical slot does have competition now in the form of Synthetik, I do still really appreciate what Gungeon does. I think at some point people just want the game to be something it never intended to be, which, while fair to be disappointed in, does not equate to things being mistakes. Also, while it did add a number of new passives, much more importantly it added a LOT of new synergies, either between guns and passives or multiple guns or the like. It really makes a huge difference to be carting around the lovely old Hegemony Carbine in a trash clearing slot then finding an ammo drum which suddenly turns it into a pin-point accurate laser gun which is even BETTER at doing its job. Really makes each new item potentially more interesting and more interactive with the full collection of things. Oh, and the Infuriating Note is, as mentioned, limited to only six times ever, and is essential to accessing (one?) of the new secret floors. I think the problem with some sort of double damage mode would be that it would be laughably easy to the people that actually got good at the game. You'd need to do a LOT more than simply doubling incoming damage to balance that out. I can see the argument for it being an easy mode of sorts, but it definitely should not be a change to the main game. Infinity Gaia fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Jul 20, 2018 |
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Jul 20, 2018 04:50
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Infinity Gaia posted:I dunno, at this point I'm pretty sure it's doing what it's meant to do. And I, for one, actually like it being like this. Having a slower, more technical top down roguelite shooter is great for me, I really really dislike the super fast mega twitchy Nuclear Throne. I've been playing cho ren sha again lately, and that is a game with a great fuckin sense of how to make the player feel threatened, but also powerful. Maybe the best pacing and gamefeel of any shooter from its era. Lots of low HP popcorn enemies, but they're dangerous and make you consider your placement on the screen, plus are often accompanied with big beefier targets that will fill up a lot of screen either with bullets or with their own mass as they advance so you have to decide what you're killing first. But non-boss enemies never take very long to kill, and a runthrough of the game takes like 20-25 minutes. That's the kind of game I want them to look at beyond the surface level bullet patterns and bombs, because it's very much possible to make things difficult for the player while letting them feel strong by killing lots of stuff quickly, and also not make things blazingly fast or high RNG. LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Jul 20, 2018 |
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Jul 20, 2018 05:03
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Monolith's double-damage mode is also a "you die in one hit" mode, if I recall correctly. That's generally the way to do it -- high power, but high risk to go with. You just have to make sure you don't end up with a "Heaven or Hell"-style situation. Heaven or Hell is a game mode in the Devil May Cry games where everyone dies in one hit -- you, monsters, bosses, everything. You have hitscan pistols with unlimited ammo, so it completely trivializes all fights and the only remaining threats are environmental hazards (and the occasional enemy that explodes or death or similar). I think the problem Gungeon has with trying to do something like that is so many enemies take time to ramp up and present their threats; if you can kill them quickly then they literally just aren't threatening. The basis of comparison I feel like ought to be scrolling shmups, and the main difference Gungeon has compared to those is that they're autoscrollers, so your rate of progress (until you get to the boss anyway) is completely fixed and it doesn't really matter if you kill enemies quickly or slowly. Consequently, you don't notice so much when a given enemy takes five seconds to burn down, because what else are you going to be doing with those five seconds? But in Gungeon, you notice, and it rankles. Even if the gameplay function of those five seconds is the same (viz. giving the enemy, and its pals, a chance to shoot at you), the fact that in one case the pace is supposedly under player control and in the other it explicitly is not creates a different gamefeel. That's just my hypothesis though.
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Jul 20, 2018 05:11
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Heaven or Hell is a game mode in the Devil May Cry games where everyone dies in one hit -- you, monsters, bosses, everything. Edit: Wait poo poo I already can I just have to bring a naked strength build into higher NG+ levels.
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Jul 20, 2018 05:14
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Skipping chests all the time because of key scarcity when Gungeon isn't exactly oozing with satisfying loot rewards to begin with was still my biggest beef with the game, and despite the professed loot retune, I can't even tell the difference in that regard. Soooo yeah. Failure all around for this patch so far. I'm not even sure I could have told you the game updated without having known in advance after my first 15 minutes with it.
Toadsmash fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Jul 20, 2018 |
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Jul 20, 2018 05:45
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My beef with keys is mostly that they don't add a meaningful choice to the game. It's like keys in Isaac. If you have no keys, you don't get any items until you hit the boss. If you only have one key, you're going to the item room every time. If you have two keys, then you'll do the item room and then either go to the shop if you have money or a golden chest if you don't. (Edit: or you'll save the key since item rooms are the best use of keys by a considerable margin unless you have a lot of money.) In Gungeon, if you only have one key, you pick the best chest available to you, and if you have two keys, you take both chests, and if you have no keys then gently caress you I guess, you don't get any items this floor. And the game is so stingy with money that if you buy a key then you probably can't buy anything else. It's just another way for RNG to dick you over in a game that demands too much skillful input to win for that kind of junk.
RyokoTK fucked around with this message at 06:04 on Jul 20, 2018 |
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Jul 20, 2018 05:51
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I never thought of it before but Gungeon could benefit greatly from Nuclear Throne's "skipping chests gives you better future chests" mechanic . It could double as RNG mitigation and as a way to reward skilled play for folks confident about clearing early floors with fewer items. Just tie it to destroying chests or something like that, I don't know
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Jul 20, 2018 06:09
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