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Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



I'm playing Dead Cells and loving it.

I wanted to ask. I wonder, is there another roguelike/roguelite I missed with the weapon/item variety of Dead Cells?

It's what I love the most from this game, not only there are ~100 usable weapons/items, it's how different the are. It goes beyond the typical melee vs ranged weapons, or quick weapon vs slow high damage weapon, or some passive stat buff or proc chance effects (and Dead Cells have all that, and random suffixes, rarity, etc) , but loots of the weapons here have their own unique mechanic.
Some of them do extra damage against walls, others if you attack in the back, some pull enemies, there is a whip that does extra damage if you hit them with the tip at the end, there is a grenade that summons critters and another that attract enemies like a magnet, a crossbow that fires like a shotgun so it will do better from close, magical lightning with high damage but needs to be channeled, some weapons synergize very well with specific effects, there are shields that can parry but not block, there are special items that allow you to float, etc.

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Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



Ok people. Recommend a roguelike/roguelite game. Some points:


-I liked games like Dungeons of Dredmor or Dead Cells. I have pending to try TOME one of these days. I think my next roguelite will be Slay the Spire, I hear good things.

-Have graphics. It doesn't have to be super pretty, but no ascii games.

-Have great variety in each run. So as you know, one of the key aspects of roguelikes is that usually have small 'graphics budget', but thanks to that, they have more depth in systems and/or content. I was searching something like that, that have great variety in classes for examples, I love games where playing another class is suddenly like playing another game, with different tactical considerations, different toolset, or even different resources.

For example, I'm also a sucker of strategy games where each faction is asymmetric and plays totally different (different resources, style, victory conditions)

-It isn't super hardcore. It is a pity, but most games of this genre are 'my way or the highway' school of design. High default difficulty, and even worse, no difficulty options. One of the things I liked from DoD was the better accesibility (easy/normal mode, but also you could choose to save between floors, or even if you wanted a normal or a long run).

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



I don't know Dungeonmans, thanks!

How is Tangledeep?

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



Sorry people who recommended me Dungeonmans, I'm liking Tangledeep better! After playing almost 12 hours of Dungeonmans and 90 minutes of Tangledeep:


Dungeonmans quick pace has some addicting quality at first, as you kill & loot poo poo, but it also has several quirks, pace issues and styles I don't like:

-Supposing you aren’t killed early and play conservatively, the first 5 hours of a run are a bit boring, too easy.
-Runs are indeed too long, given you mostly juggle the same 4-5 abilities usually in a single run. As part of that, you level too slowly from level 6 onwards, and the gameplay gets stale because of that. The game should be shorter and you should level up a bit faster, so you always get new skills every x time to play around.
-I dislike games where 85% of the combat is ‘filler’, most of the time in ‘adventurous’ dungeons I don’t bother see what type of enemies I’m hitting or what abilities do they have, I just advance and kill everything, letting the auto-target select whatever enemy. Even in the next level ('challenging'?) I had sometimes this problem.
-I dislike games with this resting system, there is no penalty for using it, it’s basically the turn-based equivalent of health-regeneration in a FPS. You reach a harder area? Advance a bit, kill 3-4 enemies, rest, rinse, repeat. Sometimes you are interrupted but it’s a single monster so you kill it without problems and rest again.
-You may say at this point I should go to a harder dungeon or raise the difficulty, but it’s hard to skip dungeons that have valuable xp and consumables, and the difficulty balance is tricky: bosses are much harder than the rest of the game, so if I raise the difficulty somehow, the moment I will reach a boss the game will be too hard, not too easy.
-Ironically this doesn’t mean I don’t die, some of my deaths (outside bosses) came because the game trains me to fall in a zen-like status of advancing and killing poo poo without looking at numbers or even using most abilities, of playing in autopilot mode, which works 99% of the tie, and then a special enemy kills me or a poisoner gets me without me noticing the poison drain 80% of my health. Even if I had dozens of consumables to avoid my death. So the pace of the game is super weird, where a floor it's too easy and suddenly in the next one I die without me noticing the enemies did much more damage. Precisely for a game without a quicksave but with a roguelike save system it feels inappropirate. A small thing, but having the health bar tucked to the right corner also affects me, increasing this dumb mistakes I make. I wish it was bigger and more in the center.
-There are some cheap kills like the top of the towers where you fight a boss, unlike any other dungeons before, the stairs magically disappear so you cannot retreat when you see that floor level is too high for you.
-95% of the loot is crap, garbage fated to be sold or be scrapped in the academy. I also dislike this kind of ‘loot’ model. I don’t even bother looking at what I’m picking from the ground, I just clear up two or three dungeons in a row and then go back to identify everything in one go, favorite a pair of pieces maybe, and the throw everything else.
-The overworld map lacks info, the number system is crap to see what is a town and what a dungeon (why not use small icons?) so you have to use the filters enabling and disable them. To show level of dungeon is, and what level of town is (merchandise level, like 4/6) would also a good idea.
-The inventory system is crap: no way to order by rating, gold, number of items (for consumables), if the item is equippable or not, or any other way.

In contrast, Tangledeep


It has a old JRPG vibe in the art which didn't convince me at first, I don't have nostalgia for these games, but in the end It fixes most of my complaints I wrote before:

-It has a few more classes than Dungeonmans, 12, and they are more original, they aren't the typical warrior/archer/wizard, so it's more in my style (Floramancer, Edge Thane, Soulkeeper..). Like Dungeonmans, you can mix them up.
-The classes, apart from more interesting, are more 'active', with more active and interesting abilities, one unique upgradable passive, and you gain the skills way faster (at least, I have 7 after 70 minutes).
-Small point, but it has more system options (some of them useful even!) and customizable controls.
-Balance wise it's way too early to say anything, but the difficulty seems smoother, without strange ups and downs, while at the same time not being brainless because the next point.
-It doesn't use the rest system from Dungeonmans, but traditional food/health potions. There are fountains that give you extra health recharges to the health potion, and an interesting powerup system, where fallen enemies may drop orb that give you a bit of stamina or energy. In addition between floors there can be a small map with a side quest or a fire camp, you can use the camp once to refill your stats or to cook a recipe.
-It has a convenient 'summon town portal', needs 8 turns to charge or so. It also can be used to return to the start of the floor. Unlike in Dungeonmans, where sometimes it was a pain in the rear end to go back two floors.
-It has several sorting methods for the inventory.
-Itemization is also better, imo it doesn't flood the player with garbage loot. After one hour I have a dozen items and 13 consumables, not 120.
-Weapons are more interesting, instead of being a simple damage number and a collection of random attributes, they also have a special ability. Daggers do more damage in successive attacks, claymore can counter when parrying, Iron claws have a damage bonus depending of the health lost recently, etc. Weapons also have learn-able unique abilities depending of the weapon type.
On the other hand there seems to be less variety of weapons.
-Enemies are also a bit more interesting, like Dungeonmans they can have abilities, but it feels they have a bit more identity here.
-It has a meta-progression system too. Capturing and taming monsters seem a cool idea, and later they are pets that can level up.
-There is a sidequest/rumor system that is like a challenge, as they can be conditions like 'don't change weapons' or 'don't use more than 800 steps'.
-It has a good number of starting options (here it's better to put some screenshots), I think they accommodate everyone:




-A little thing, but I like having some simple animations in this type of game. The 'idle' animations of the characters give them much more life than the static sprites of Dungeonmans.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



At the end of the day, I will just say that Tangledeep has captured my imagination more than Dungeonmans. Right now I'm discovering new stuff in Tangledeep every hour, like:

-You can pair up pets to breed a new hybrid
-Side quests unlock new npcs, or new starting feats for the next charactes
-You can pay a trainer to make a pet learn a new skill.
-Pets have random liked and disliked foods.
-Dream-item dungeons have unique affinities depending of the item of attributes of the item, they have special 'mutators' for the dungeon (like 'berserk enemies') and there are random auras with positive and negative effects. I like how they can be a challenge because precisely you won't have the item you are upgrading, which most of the times will be your best item.
-There are nightmare dungeons but I still have no idea of how they work
-There are skill-orbs for dream dungeons that give passive effects to a job skill.
-Job trials to gain an unique job-related item, I like how you are limited in cosumables and in using only that job skills.
-Weapon have weapon masteries, a series of 3 abilities to unlock, and an ultimate ability (only can have 1).
-There is a cool sidequest to get armor masteries.
-You learn a perk for your health flask every 5 levels.

so I'm positively giddy with the game right now.

Difficulty wise, the game is definitively on the easy side, but the fact there is no free recovery of health or mana, not even in the Town, makes me play in a more engaging manner, trying to get hit the less possible. Also pet insurance can get expensive if you don't care about your pet.
And yeah, I can see how the Pandora's boxes mechanic could make the game harder and harder. I read there is New Game+ where you start with the same Pandora box counter (instead of being reset to 0), that's a cool idea to make the successive games harder.

Turin Turambar fucked around with this message at 14:05 on Jan 13, 2019

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



Sacrificial Toast posted:

Same, I just died around level 10 as a Spellshaper/Floramancer just not noticing my health was so low. The edges of the screen do turn red, but somehow I just tune it out a lot of the time. Maybe I should just play on the mode that lets you respawn.

It's like my roguelike curse. 'Hey this game is pretty easy!!' , until I reach an area it isn't, I start using a few consumables thinking that's the only thing I need to get over it, and I fail to recognize how truly difficult is the new area, not using the portal. Baam, 8 hours thrown to the garbage.

Speaking of, I think that's related to the main thing I don't like in Tangledeep, how long it is. The main game are 20 floors, but there are extra side quests/hidden floors, now add doing a handful of rumors, the trial jobs, and upgrading your weapons a dozen times, which can be 2-3 floors per item, or even more, and you end playing 45-50 floors in a run. That's 15 hours? more right?? That's imo, too long. Even if I die before, the average run is going to be 11 hours or so. I thought the point of roguelikes like this being very replayable (12 jobs, random levels, deep character and item customization) was to play them a bunch of times, but even if I like it, I don't want to play it so much. That's something I prefer in roguelites, runs are usually shorter. This also affects how I deal internally with permadeath, it's ok for for 2 hour run game, it's less okay for a game where I invested the equivalent of a single player game campaign.

Ideally, they should offer a custom setting to choose game length. It should be possible to do it, as the basis of most of these games are procedural dungeons. I only have seen a similar option in Dungeons of Dredmor?

Turin Turambar fucked around with this message at 11:26 on Jan 14, 2019

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



You make a good point, with a good pet and weapons you should be able to rush & skip the first floors, at least.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



Johnny Joestar posted:

i really, absolutely want a release date for noita

Funny thing, I had the game wishtlisted, but it wasn't because it's an action roguelite, but because I'm a sucker for games with complex physics/liquid interaction/procedural destruction.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



I save scummed twice in my current game of Tangledeep, two silly, totally avoidable deaths so on my mind it was allowed as I didn't have enough experience on the game, then on the third death on the 15th floor I say to myself 'well, that was my fault' and started a new character. It was very 'Oops' like the title of the thread, a theorethical 'easy' floor where the randomness of roguelikes conspired against me, one of those situations that have a 0.05% probability of occurring in any given fight, but given the length of the game you will have 3 or 4 of them in a normal run.

I'm not sure, but I think the floor difficulty indicator can be tricky, because the pandora chests raise the global difficulty without updating that? After 15 chests opened, he 'very easy' floors felt like the 'easy' ones before.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



The item economy is totally bonkers, by the way. With that I refer to the shop prices: a rank 7 common item will be 80% more expensive than a rank 5 legendary item full of affixes, hell even forgetting the affixes for a second the legendary item still will have better base stats.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



Dachshundofdoom posted:

The total uselessness of the floor difficulty indicator really wrecked the Item Dream mechanic for me last time I played Tangledeep. It's a cool idea but the possibility of jumping blind into a potential ToME 4-level oneshot unique was infuriating, especially since those are very rare in the standard dungeon. The risk always seemed to massively outweigh the reward too: you'd burn through a bunch of resources, risk death, and in return you'd get some random piddly affix that'd be out of date when you find a better item in a few more floors.

There is a item to get back into the real world in one turn, the uh... whatever drum. And while you don't keep the 'dream-consumables', you keep the gold and other items. In fact some dreams have extra fountains, or the goldfrog, several times I got with more resources than I started with.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



SKULL.GIF posted:


Incidentally this is why Katie Twinkles is a great vendor even though she rarely sells anything "good" -- if you can grab some good base equipment you can just use the Item Dream to enchant them. Any base gear higher than rank 5 immediately goes into my bank unless I already have copies of them.

Uh, I didn't think of that, I saw some common weapon at rank 7, but being a white base weapon, I ignored. But... I guess you will have to upgrade the weapon a bunch of times to make it equivalent to a rare or legendary weapon.


By the way, I did the other day a thread for the game in another forum. I guess I can reuse it and make a thread in SA... give me a few minutes.


edit: AND DONE. Now let's see the thread disappear in a few minutes.
https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3879710&pagenumber=1#lastpost

Turin Turambar fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Jan 15, 2019

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



andrew smash posted:

I agree with you, the length of the campaign in TOME is absurd and a lot of it is really tedious. The orc campaign was much better.

How many hours are we talking about? Hard to estimate in a RL, I know.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



madjackmcmad posted:

:words: buckle up


A third hotbar that's consumables only, meaning you can't put them on your main two bars... which is kinda weird for players with < 16 abilities. So maybe the item UI shows three bars rotating on the left, while the ability menu only shows two? Less to translate that way. Push button -> see 8 favorite foods would certainly be nice.


In Tangledeep in particular a third quickbar instead of two makes totally sense. Why? Because given the average length of a game, a player takes 1.5 jobs, I would say, that's 8 of his full job + 2-4 extra abilities of the second job. Then you have 2 more abilities of a single weapon mastery, and maybe you have the perk for the free 1 square jump, or an item that gives another ability, and in total you have already the two bars totally full. So a third one for consumables would ideal.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



I find pretty amusing how in the last two pages everyone seem to agree that TOME is obtuse, full of superfluous information, of boring trash mobs, too long, of elite enemies that look like trash mobs but they aren't, etc etc
and two weeks ago when I was asking about roguelikes I was recommended TOME, lol.

By the way, I mentioned this problem

quote:

'The problem is when the pacing is off like tome, where 95% of the game is popcorn or when there's no way to tell something dangerous is coming up like a randboss that you autoexplore into and get instagibbed.'
when I was writing about Dungeonmans, it seems something more or less common in the genre. Games that bore you with trash mobs and long dungeons, makes you put the autopilot mentally speaking, then suddenly an uber enemy appears and instakill you before noticing what the hell happened.
Ideal design for a permadeath-focused genre.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



RPATDO_LAMD posted:

People complain the most about the games that they've played for long enough to find all the little warts.

That's very true!

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



Hooplah posted:

As a counterpoint to everyone saying how great TOME is, I personally have played about 18 hours of it, bouncing off it each time before level 20, because every item in the game has a screen like this




I suspect uber-detailed visible stats for everything is a positive feature, not a negative one, for the average obsessive nerd that likes RLs. I, for one, like Dominions a lot and that game so I can't criticize them really :P

Turin Turambar fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Jan 26, 2019

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



BigLeafyTree posted:

Card Quest is tons of fun. It takes quite a while to unlock everything on every class but I’m closing in on that and the crazy thing is I enjoy the game enough that I’m orobably going to wipe my file afterwards and do it again.

Comparison between Card Quest and Slay the Spire? Because they seem to use exactly the same concept.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



Thanks for the explanation!

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011




Speaking of, I wonder if some roguelike fans here go to my Tangledeep thread and test my mod. It is too hard, too easy?

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



As you people were talking the past days about TOME, I watched a pair of videos of tutorial/let's play thing. I even played it a bit the free version.

One thing that I ended up wondering is... why there is an autoexplore option? I mean, I know why it's there, the game clearly shortens up the tedium with that option, but if you look back a bit for a second and think things through, isn't a game design failure if your game needs the autoexplore feature?
Wouldn't be best to actually reduce the size of the dungeons by... three? Because they can be pretty big, and they are mostly featureless procedural maps, you don't win anything by being that big, except needing the autoexplore to make walking until you hit a monster less boring. Hell, even it made me think that gameplay wise, if the autoexplore works, it is indicative of the game is lacking something. It should matter where and how you find an enemy in a game about tactical combat. The type of terrain should matter, maybe? rocky, grassy, mud, forest, etc. Height factor in terrain? traps? Whatever.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



Emong posted:

Corral pets automatically get half your flask healing, and they can have abilities they can use to heal themselves.

In addition they heal overtime while in the corral, so eventually when you have 3 of them, you can rotate them.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



resistentialism posted:

oh ya, just need the examine dialog, thanks

Wait, what examine dialog?

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



Harminoff posted:

Came across this BOI like called Metaverse Keeper. Has a free beta available here

https://sparks-games.itch.io/metaverse-keeper



I'm enjoying it a bunch so far.

That looks nice. I hope I like it more than EtG, from which I bounced off.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



ITB is a very good game that I can appreciate how well designed it is, how it's so tight and well executed its singular vision with focus, how all the pieces fit together perfectly without any obvious bad part. But in reality, I only played... 11 hours I think? It's a very focused game, and one consequence of that it's the limited scope. It has a pretty good variety inside that limited scope, but it isn't a game that I will play for dozens and dozens of hours. And the end of the day I just say 'it's a really cool puzzle' but the experience has clear limits.
That said, the reality of why I only played 11 hours is that I wasn't in a rush to play more, because I know at some point I will reinstall when they do some enhanced edition/dlc/expansion and play other 11 more.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



Captain Foo posted:

I love synthetik's aesthetics so much but i'm so bad at it

Apart from aesthetics, it has a really good '30-sec gameplay loop', but that core loop don't extend itself properly into a multi-dozen hours experience, like for example Dead Cells. The use of more or less realistic firearms means lots of them are very similar in use, lots of times the difference between items were passive buffs or 'proc chance for x effect', and the enemies were also not varied enough. You have normal guys, sniper guys, shield guys, robots that explode on contact, uh... not a lot more. Well, it had a few more types but you could include them in the same niches of enemy types.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



goferchan posted:

Night of the Full Moon by Giant Network Technology Co., Ltd. https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/night-of-the-full-moon/id1278845241?mt=8

Hey I won once with the knight! and I'm doing it well in the next run.

So, what's the recommended character to buy? Which is the best* one?

*I mean the most fun to play, not the most 'optimal'.

Turin Turambar fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Mar 1, 2019

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



resistentialism posted:

Beat the hard mode in tangledeep, but I scummed item dreams in normal mode for a while before doing it.
Had rainbow resists in the 70s-90s, base, and effects that were boosting them even further most of the time.

hard mode, as in hardcore mode?

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



Tuxedo Catfish posted:

Tangledeep reminds me a little of Dark Souls -- not because it's difficult or grim or any of the usual themes people associate with that game, but in that I have serious misgivings about a lot of the mechanics, but it fills such an unusual niche that you can forgive it's missteps (to some extent) because it does things other games wouldn't even try. (In Souls' case, invasions, in Tangledeep's case, really committing to attrition-based resource management.)

The combination of healing as a limited resource + respawning enemies is an extremely elegant solution to the "problem" of grinding; it makes it a strategic decision every step of the way. The actual amount of healing you get seems very well-calibrated as well.

It's also absolutely gorgeous and, far more importantly, readable. I overwhelmingly prefer ASCII in roguelikes because so often the graphics are muddy, enemies are poorly distinguished from backgrounds or look too much alike, etc. The simplicity and starkness of character + color goes a long way, and even aesthetically pleasing tilesets can be annoying for other reasons (looking at you, Caves of Qud.) Tangledeep avoids all of these problems. On top of that, the way that enemies telegraph their attacks and the way that sound is used to convey information about what monsters are doing (melee and ranged sound different, special abilities have their own effects, etc.) also contributes to this.

On the other hand, my god I hate the stamina / energy system. I don't like the two redundant resource bars; it makes it very difficult to get a feel for how much you can cast, since you have two overlapping currencies and running out of either breaks most classes' internal synergy. Melee kills rewarding more powerups is exactly as frustrating and counter-intuitive as I thought it would be when the dev polled this thread about it years ago.

In DoomRL -- which I think is probably this game's closest cousin -- running out of ammunition is a failure state. It generally only happens only if you're grossly wasteful or went for an extremely ammo-hungry build without getting abilities to compensate for it. In Tangledeep, running out of stamina and energy all the time feels like the intended gameplay. You can offset this somewhat by buying food, but gold is also character upgrade currency and healing currency and gates a lot of the side mechanics, so the opportunity costs are both extremely complicated and potentially pretty harsh.

Think of it this way -- health management is pretty much a given, you do it or it's game over. The decision of whether to stay and grind or move on can be pretty difficult, but it's not over-complicated: you want to get as much leveling and looting done as you can without running out of juice. If you screw up, you lose the game and you start again.

None of this is true of stamina / energy. You're capable of fighting without one, the other, or both; if you commit hard enough to kiting with e.g. clever use of extra turns and quick step, you can potentially even fight with a minimum of stamina / energy without it coming at a significant cost in damage taken. (This is a self-reinforcing loop, too: having no resources promotes extremely cautious play because combat is riskier, but then the ranged resource penalty means you get less resources back.) Moreover, if you screw up stamina / energy management, you don't actually lose right away -- the game just suddenly gets really tedious and all the cool powers that define your class and build go away.

The sheer number of subsystems in the game is also a little overwhelming, but I'm sure that'll get more manageable with time and experimentation. Item dreams are very cool, having more control and relying less on RNG for your gear is something roguelikes in general could stand to have more of, and this way offers more customization and freedom than, for example, fixedart drops in ADOM or CoQ (e: as a way of solving the same problem, I mean).

I'm less a fan of monster pets; it seems like they're basically a way to trade tedium for power, since having a pet around means it contributes a lot of DPS and tanking without the player having to do anything or make any tactical decisions, but on the other hand raising them and managing their happiness and preventing them from dying is a lot of busy work between fights. Moreover, it seems like by process of elimination they must either be superfluous, or at some point the additional power they offer will become more or less mandatory; the former is inelegant design and the latter would be annoying since I'd really just rather not bother with them.

I still really dislike meta-progression as a mechanic, but I'm playing with it enabled anyways because it feels like (not to mention the game explicitly tells you) it's the intended balance / experience.

Overall I'm glad that more roguelikes are working on better ways to implement the attrition model of gameplay, where every encounter is meaningful in terms of resource management; on the other hand, there are still some really clunky and limiting aspects to it.

I don't agree with your opinion on health/stamina. It isn't that complex or annoying. It's just two 'ammo pools' for your abilities. I usually put the stamina ones on the left side of the bar and the energy ones on the right side. Saying that having two is redundant is like saying that having weapons with different ammo in Doom in redundant.

You never have to buy enough food that the money vs food issue is ever a problem. You eventually swim on gold, and just using the fountains, taking the orbs before they disappear, and sleeping, and some food on the side, you should be ok. I don't know if maybe you are spamming your abilities more than you should, don't waste them in crappy enemies :P. With an exception, if you know you can recover that resource after combat because someone else dropped just dropped an orb.

It's the typical resource trade off, you can fight safely by spending more resources (energy, stamina) or by spending health (or just being more risky) by not using them. If you spend health, it means you will have to spend gold (for healing) or a healing flask. It seems a more interesting system than the one your described in DoomRL.

I agree some things are not intuitive, like melee dropping more orbs. On the other hand I played dozens of hours without knowing that and I had no problems, and in fact ranged is still the most 'efficient' option.

I'm also not a fan of the meta-progression. Part of it, is because it seems directed to another type of player, the grindy players, that will play dozens and dozens of hours doing dream items, collecting weapon sets, breeding pets. And In theory they say it will help you catch up with the zone where you were killed last time and no more, but in reality you can accrue more power than you had in the previous game, giving you more legendary items, more orbs that allow for more grinding, a more powerful pet, etc.

I don't think there is any 'balance via hostile UI', it's more surely an oversight. What's the problem, there is no sparks in the game while you have the minimap opened?
I don't even get why would anyone would try to play the entire game from the minimap?? what's to gain?

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



Tuxedo Catfish posted:

You can see the layout of the entire level and see enemies, loot, and other features from much further away with the minimap up.

Well, it still a minimap, so for obvious reason it can't cram all the information of the real map on it. It's also missing different icons for the monsters, for example!

If you want to do big posts about Tangledeep, I would recommend the thread for it ;)


Also, if your problem with the game is that you would like to use more abilities, and maybe in exchange increase the difficulty a bit, it can be done with a mod, I can make it in a few minutes. It's basically a .xml with two lines:

<poweruphealing>x</poweruphealing>
<powerupdrop>x</powerupdrop>

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



TooMuchAbstraction posted:

Risk of Rain never clicked for me. The combat was horrendously sloggy, there's a huge number of items that mostly don't seem that useful, and I found the global time limit to be stressful. All of the positive reviews I've read basically say "it gets good once you get some unlocks and the ability to choose the items you get" but I never got that far.

It's a shame; the game looks cool as hell and I really like a lot of action roguelites. Just...not this one. :negative:

IronicDongz posted:

I think this one feels a lot better than the first because your movement is better and you don't get locked in place with your special abilities. I disliked the first one because it had the timer to incentivize going quickly but then you felt so fuckin slow. especially with the tiny player sprite on the huge screen

this one you feel pretty mobile, sprinting and using movement abilities more freely and you don't get stuck whenever you do things like eg: commando's multishot.


I will copy and paste what I wrote in the RoR2 thread:

quote:

I will go against the grain saying that I thought RoR1 was a very mediocre game... but I will save face saying RoR2 is a much, much better game. The 3Dness makes all the difference, and not because 3d graphicxxx but the gameplay changes.

Having a 3d world with 3d movement, both for the player and the enemies makes the game much more engaging and interesting, having free aiming to fire makes it much more fun, fighting in a normal 3d terrain is also better than the limiting 2d platforms, and together the standard WASD + mouse controls is totally an improvement. The movement and the action flows better, with less moments where you controls are locked, improvements like auto-coin collection and the sprint button, and I think there are a few less bullet spongey enemies so the combat feels less more immediate.

A giant leap forward, imo.

In other words, I agree with IronicDongz, and just because someone disliked the first he shouldn't forget this game. Both are action roguelites, and super similar on paper, but the fact one was a clunky 2d action platform and the other a smooth 3d shooter, it's almost different genres.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



Harry Potter on Ice posted:

Same and I hope I dont burn out on the game before the final build like I did with dead cells

With the last two updates, now there are new areas, new boss fights, new weapons and new enemies. And better balance and better difficulty progression.
/trying to tempt you

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



255 posted:

Final update for Enter The Gungeon dropped this morning & it looks pretty robust. If anyone bounced off it previously (and didn't come back already) I'd suggest taking another look!

Are they putting difficulty options? Because I bounced off twice because of how hard it was (and I beat Dead Cells!).

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



Motherfucker posted:

void bastards is really bouncing me which sucks because I like a lot of it... its just the enemies. They're all variations on 'floats around and shoots projectiles' with the kind of indepth AI we havn't seen the likes of since Doom.

I also didn't like the game. I liked the idea but not the execution. In practical terms in a stealth/fps game where both the stealth and the fps parts aren't very good. Immersive sim-wise, it's a far cry of a atmospheric experience like SS2 or Prey, too. Games like Cryptark had a more interesting and interactive ship systems integrated into gameplay.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



I just read today Streets of Rogue review in RPS, and it seemed pretty positive. I wanted to ask about it. Any opinions with substance?

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



In the roguelite genre, have you guys seen I, Dracula: Genesis ? (awful title) It looks very good, in terms of content and art
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1175360/I_Dracula_Genesis/

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



zirconmusic posted:

So Stoneshard is on track to be the highest selling and highest grossing roguelike, even beyond Dredmor, at the rate it's growing. 3445 reviews already means it's probably well over 100k units sold in less than a week. Absolutely surreal.

That could be a bit of an outlier, with a fair number of people writing the review to note for their issues with the save system. Translation reviews into sales works for average cases, this could be one of outside the average.

Although in any case, I'm not surprised if this game is more successful than say, Tangledeep. The more somber art style, the mouse driven UI, the setting and concept itself (a mercenary going on in a warn-torn medieval world), the promise of system driven open world, it all speaks more to the 'average hardcore PC gamer' (whatever that is!) that may be interested in buying a roguelike in the first place.

I personally find funny how code-worded is the description, marketing-wise. Gotta know what your audience is:

quote:

Stoneshard is a challenging turn-based RPG set in an open world. Experience the unforgiving life of a medieval mercenary: travel across the war-torn kingdom, fulfill contracts, fight, mend your wounds and develop your character without any restrictions.
Open World
War always leaves its mark: villages lie in ruins, dungeons are infested with monsters and old roads are abandoned. Travel across Aldor and learn more about its past.
Economy
The wartime economy is ruthless, but it also presents many opportunities: fulfill contracts, hunt for treasure, trade in a variety of goods and travel the land to earn your fortune.
Tactical Battles
There is no hand-holding. Only the thoughtful ones shall prevail - plan a few turns ahead, adapt to your surroundings and fully utilize your character’s strengths.

Yes, the game is drat gritty, I get it!

Turin Turambar fucked around with this message at 11:42 on Feb 10, 2020

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



zirconmusic posted:

So Stoneshard is on track to be the highest selling and highest grossing roguelike, even beyond Dredmor, at the rate it's growing. 3445 reviews already means it's probably well over 100k units sold in less than a week. Absolutely surreal.

Well, it's 7000 reviews already.

Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



Relevant for the thread
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/03/ascii-art-permadeath-the-history-of-roguelike-games/

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Turin Turambar
Jun 5, 2011



https://store.steampowered.com/app/1175360/I_Dracula_Genesis/

This game is now out in Early Access. Anyone have played it?

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