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Thanks for making a new thread. I have a couple of suggestions to improve the OP. First thing is your list of nethack forks could be a bit better, the two you linked to are both unmaintained. The best ones out there right now are probably nethack 4 and unnethack. Both have online servers, unfortunately this is the only way to play nethack 4 if you're a windows user, which sucks because there's a lot of nice stuff in it. Nethack 4 is a conservative fork, which focuses on interface and usability improvements. There are changes to gameplay but they seem to be balance oriented for the most part. Aside from bugs and the lack of an offline windows version, it seems to be a straight improvement over base Nethack. Unnethack is more gameplay focused. It has a lot of interface and usability improvements too, but it's not as conservative and isn't afraid to change things if it seems like an interesting idea. Overall it still feels like nethack though. It reminds me a bit of slash'em in terms of how it adds a lot of stuff, but it's better designed and still developed. You should also mention nethack curses, which is a massive interface upgrade to the original nethack. The download there contains everything, and the base game itself is unmodified. The screenshots page there will show you what it looks like. Overall I think there's no point playing nethack with the vanilla interface, these days. For angband, you should mention NPPAngband which is one of the best variants out there, and is still developed. As far as I can tell it's more popular than most of the *bands you listed, so it's worth mentioning if only for that. As a bonus, the next version will also lets you play NPPMoria, which is probably the only reasonable way to play Moria these days. In terms of gameplay, NPP stands for "no pet peeves" and NPPAngband is basically about removing annoying stuff and adding cool stuff. Overall it's still Angband, but more solidly designed imo. NPPMoria on the other hand is very conservative - basically it's just the original Moria ported to the NPPAngband engine, which is good because there's no way you're getting the original game to run on modern systems. I think it would be worth mentioning Sil on its own. This game is ridiculously well designed, and doesn't play at all like Angband (it shares a lot of code and the name of the dungeon, but the gameplay is totally different down to the very core). I think it's different enough that it's less of a variant and more of a game in its own right. I've played a lot of roguelikes and Sil is one of the best I've seen. Especially if you like the tactical, anti-grinding focus of Crawl, you owe it to yourself to try this game. Lastly, you really should add a section for Brogue, but I see that's already planned.
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Aug 6, 2013 11:33
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I've tried adventure mode but it's really half baked compared to fortress mode. You sort of just wander around without any real goal except to explore. Character development is mostly limited to stat growth, you won't find great loot unless you raid an old fortress, so there's not much of a progression feel. It's a low magic setting, so no spells - but there's not much to make up for this. There's a fairly elaborate melee system, but in general you don't need all those options. Just pick whichever attack move is likely to get an instakill, and ignore the other ones. Etc. What makes adventure mode very interesting is that you can explore old fortresses, and the idea behind that is very cool. Even though the gameplay is lacking, being able to explore the ruins of stuff you once created and get a sense of how it fits in the world justifies adventure mode. But as an actual roguelike, it's a bad one. Without fortress mode (which is a city builder game), it's just not able to stand on its own for very long.
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Aug 6, 2013 14:40
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Bouchacha posted:What's the feature list on this? I don't think there's a concise list anywhere, but it comes with a complete changelog. The roguebasin page gives a very short summary of what it's about : http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=NPPAngband Sil was actually forked from an old version of this, and they both have the same AI system I think.
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Aug 6, 2013 16:13
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uPen posted:Sil
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Aug 6, 2013 20:57
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Lawman 0 posted:Whats the goto character type for getting your first sil win? Pham Nuwen posted:Sil is fun so far, although I think I might get a bit fed up with molds, wolves, and orcs being about all you run into on the upper levels. At least, they're all I've seen... except when I put on an amulet I found, and suddenly a wraith was following me around. A wraith usually found around 635 feet. When I was at ~100. With all the orc packs and such, I find the game is a lot more enjoyable if you turn off the damage numbers that pop up... makes the combat go way faster. Stealth also lets you just avoid fighting them. Archers are still a pain in the rear end, if a bunch of them notice you the best thing to do is just abandon the level. Deeper floors tend to be a lot more varied, I think the first couple floors are the most boring ones.
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Aug 6, 2013 22:47
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If you want an accessible, streamlined roguelike, you could start with Rogue. There's a port called ClassicRogue which adds some basic sound effects and graphics, and some other conveniences. It's a short game, there's not a ton of stuff to memorize, etc. The controls aren't as streamlined as some games, but the number of actual commands is quite small. The trickiest part is learning how to identify items, but the system isn't nearly as byzantine as Nethack. DoomRL is also a good choice, but it's very non-traditional since it's based almost completely around ranged combat. Every other RL tends to emphasize melee a lot more. ToME has good mouse support, but it's a very complex game. You'll be able to control it, but you'll have no idea what's going on - it's the sort of game that throws tons of numbers at you constantly. And you need to learn what those numbers mean in order to play well. So I don't recommend it if you want something simple. Brogue is probably the best choice for a more standard, but modern and very polished roguelike. All the games I'm recommending are fairly short ones. Most roguelikes are relatively short games, though (including Rogue and most of the other really early ones). It was mostly the "second generation" games like nethack, angband, adom, and crawl which tended to be massive. Newer roguelikes are usually shorter and more focused. EvilMike fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Aug 7, 2013 |
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Aug 7, 2013 21:38
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Jordan7hm posted:It doesn't seem that bad. Every level has stairs but a lot have them hidden behind secret doors. The level builder follows a 3x3 grid pattern, rooms are sometimes replaced by more corridors or mazes. A wall can only have a single door, so you can get a sense of where to search. Rogue had a ton of different versions. ClassicRogue is based on the PC version from the 80's, but it has a bunch of quality of life improvements. The unix version of the game tends to be a bit different, since it's based on an open source implementation of it. On windows you can play it as Rogue Clone IV. Biggest difference is no dark rooms and a simpler id system. Finally, if you want to play the "authentic" version you could try one of the builds hosted at the Roguelike restoration project, but I think this is mainly for historical curiosity. The versions here will feel rather crude - no support for colour or anything like that.
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Aug 8, 2013 09:50
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Oski posted:I keep finding that there's too much that I want (stealth, mêlée, song, evasion...). I want to try a song of mastery build but can't stay alive long enough... You really need to specialize in this game. Skill levels are super important, a 1 point increase makes a big difference. High level skills are very expensive to increase, but it's worth it. It's still worth diverisfying, but you can't spread yourself too thin. At the start of the game you should put most of your exp into combat skills (melee, archery, evasion). Take a bit of smithing too, for the guaranteed forge. Other skills are good to take a bit in too, but don't specialize in them yet. While you can go heavily into stealth/song in the beginning and win (it's possible to win a pacifist in sil), it's not as easy for a new player. Don't take too many abilities at the start (the stuff on the tab menu). They are useful, but expensive if you take too many. Focus on what you think you need for that character. As for song of mastery, its powerful if you can get it, but it's a late game thing. And by that point, a lot of characters will prefer song of sharpness for combat. Depends on what artefacts you find.
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Aug 14, 2013 09:32
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k stone posted:I'm enjoying Sil quite a bit. The stripped-down mechanics where every point in a stat means a whole lot are really neat. But they also make the standard roguelike elements even crueller than usual. Get hit by fungus cloud three floors in, lose 2 constitution and thus half your max HP forever until you find a specific potion. Equip cursed axe with a negative modifier to strength, have all your attack rolls completely gimped until you learn a specific skill to break curses. Sigh. Guess I should stay away from fungi and <special> equipment until I get the proper skills. They also give you ways to avoid all of that stuff, though. A couple points of Will makes violet fungus way less likely to drain you, along with tons of other enemies that show up deeper. Keen senses (perception ability) lets you see fungus before you step next to it. There are also ways to increase your light radius, including with smithing. And if you can cope with the stat loss, stat potions (and herbs of restoration) are something you're definitely going to find, especially once you hit the mid-depths. For cursed items, there are a couple which suck, but staffs of sanctity (remove curse) are one of the most common types. Lore keeper (which leads to lore master) will identify all curses, and can be taken early. Curse breaking is really just an emergency ability that you should only take if you have a cripplingly bad cursed item that you can't remove any other way... which is pretty rare. Special weapons with slaying brands will glow, and you can see this in the inventory window. So you can pseudo-id these ones safely, at least. Everything here is possible in the early game, so you don't really need to hold out that much, if you want to play it safe.
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Aug 16, 2013 18:01
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At least in Sil they're worth identifying for the 100 xp! If you take jewelcrafting and have nothing else to make at a forge for some reason, that's a way to get some free xp.
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Aug 18, 2013 20:17
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House Louse posted:Mr Wemmick is polydactylic. Those traps can be pretty harsh, all I can really suggest is if you see vents in the ground, be extremely paranoid - search for the pressure plates and stay the hell away from where the gas comes out. I think paralysis traps always warn you this way. If it makes up for it, you can pull the same sort of poo poo on enemies. A staff of conjuration and some paralysis gas is all it takes (the conjured blades are immune to gas). Or use armour of respiration if you are lucky.
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Aug 23, 2013 21:19
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The stealth changes are somewhat interesting, from the few games I've played so far. I mainly like the way armour is a factor now (there's actually a reason to wear light armour, in other words). And using rings to get a stealth radius of 1 is pretty funny, but it's hampered a bit by it being hard to tell which squares are lit (the biggest flaw of the system, I think). For the most part, stuff just can't detect you at all when it's outside your stealth range, so it's very powerful. Just don't expect to fight stuff. Also, even though plate armour makes you extremely visible to enemies, I think a ring of stealth could still be very useful, since taking off your armour only takes 1 turn, and monsters lose "hunting" status if they are far enough out of your stealth range. Re-equipping takes time now, but this still seems like it should be a good escape tactic. It's like having a weak version of invisibility that you can use whenever you want. The stealth radius display only informs you when you step into the light... it can be useful still, but I prefer to play with it off. Seems kind of fiddly because of this, but it could probably still be improved.
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Sep 14, 2013 21:17
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andrew smash posted:Last time I played LCS was nerfed with a fat miss chance. Thing I hate most about crawl is that tendency. This never happened. The spell is as accurate as it's always been. It misses a lot at low spellpower, but most spells in Crawl work that way. At reasonable power it doesn't miss very much.
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Sep 17, 2013 02:19
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Rapacity posted:Towerclimb Overall I think this mode is more fun than the default game, it's harder, but much faster paced and varied.
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Sep 20, 2013 11:33
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01011001 posted:2) On your character sheet is a minimum depth which is based on your accumulated total experience. It's actually based on time passed. It's lenient enough that you won't usually won't be forced downwards unless you're grinding 950' for items (morgoth is on 1000'). But it does mean that the game has an actual time limit.
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Nov 3, 2013 18:57
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dis astranagant posted:Aren't hobgoblins the number 1 killer? According to the stats for the 0.13 tournament, gnolls took the #1 spot (thanks to spawning in packs and having polearms, I bet), and orc priests were 2nd, both by a pretty good margin.
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Nov 8, 2013 00:41
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Strudel Man posted:I tried Sil a little, and it's probably just that I'm terrible, but I'm really not impressed. I get 50 or 100 feet down, accumulate maybe two potions, then run into something faster than I am or a pack of orcs that surround me and die. It's not a lack of consumables that killed you, it was getting surrounded. The game puts MASSIVE penalties on your evasion if you are fighting while surrounded. And there's no way to teleport in this game. So, once you get into a bad situation, there's a very high chance that you'll die. What offsets this is that the game makes it much easier than other games to just avoid combat. Stealth is super useful even at low skill, and at high skill its like being invisible all the time. Also, a lot of pack enemies tend to have low will scores, so if you take song of elbereth (for example) you can simply scare away packs of orcs. Most of the exp in this game doesn't even come from fighting, so you're pretty much rewarded for avoiding combat in situations like this.
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Nov 9, 2013 11:58
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netcat posted:I kinda lose my faith in randomness when the best and most interesting maps/challenges in Crawl are the big vaults designed by a human. Should be noted that almost all of crawl's vaults are also heavily randomized. Placement and distribution of monsters, dungeon features, and even the vault layout itself gets randomized. You can even get vaults that place more vaults inside them (this is essentially how most of the "dungeon sprint" maps are built). There's still a predefined map which it's structured around, but the RNG plays a vital role too. Technically, even the random dungeon layouts are defined as "vaults", and range from being very random, to having a lot of "human-made" elements included. Or in some cases (eg in Zot) it produces weird geometrical levels which look manmade but aren't.
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Dec 3, 2013 13:08
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They only gain power from wands. But they aren't single use, you can add charges to wands with enchant scrolls, meaning those wands let you dump enchants into allies now. Not a bad idea if you get one strong enough and can keep it alive.
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Dec 4, 2013 21:39
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Jeffrey posted:Crawl's ui isn't THAT different from nethack's, save for autoexplore. It's funny that after all these years there are still separate buttons for "[r]ead" vs "[q]uaff" and [W]ear vs [P]ut on. I mean I'm talking about ascii mode here, but that's the best mode anyway. Crawl has a lot of keys available, but it can be boiled down to movement, a couple abilities (spellcasting etc), and the inventory button. There are tons of keys for interacting with items, but you can basically do everything through the inventory menu on 'i', it's just slower. Basically 90% of the interface in Crawl is there for lazy people. Can't really say that about roguelikes from the 90's and earlier. Of course most players use tiles anyway so they can just use the mouse instead.
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Dec 13, 2013 14:04
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I certainly wouldn't want things to go in the dungeons of dredmor direction.
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Jeffrey posted:Most players really use the mouse? I mean I believe you, that's just insane to me. I get annoyed at moving my hands in numpad-only games, I can't fathom switching to the mouse. Vim keys are seared into my brain at this point so maybe I just don't remember the learning curve there. Do people primarily use the mouse for inventory and long-distance movement? I wonder if it is worth submitting a patch for terminal mouse support in ascii mode... Well, obviously we can't collect statistics for offline games as easily as online ones, but from the stats I remember, more people play the game offline (with tiles) than online. And that has mouse support. Even if you are mostly using the keyboard, the mouse is nice just for things like panning around the minimap. Being able to click inventory items is nice too. Keyboard is still superior for general movement. Anyway, I wasn't saying that most people necessarily use the mouse, just that it's a valid option for them. Also worth noting, about 3/4 of online games use the "webtiles" version, which has much more limited mouse support, but it's improving.
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Dec 13, 2013 16:15
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Glimpse posted:Well then, good news! As of version 1.7.3, pets are a short-lived monster distraction/attraction at best, unless you choose to strengthen them at the cost of weaker gear for yourself for some strange reason. Even though it can cost enchants, a nicely buffed pet can be insanely strong (helps if you can heal it). Don't waste it on early things but any later enemies (troll or stronger imo) are a good choice. You can even recover from negation now. It's not how I prefer to play, but I tried it once with a naga and it was really viable.
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Dec 18, 2013 01:26
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Levitate posted:Yeah I did the tutorial and read the manual some. Just not sure how much to invest in what skills and attributes but yeah I guess starting off you can't go too wrong dumping a lot into melee and evasion Also, stealth is really really good. A couple points in it is the difference between picking your fights and having to wade through a never ending flood of orc archers.
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Dec 18, 2013 20:53
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omeg posted:I don't get the complaints about ToME's original tilest, I don't mind it at all. I can't stand the oldrpg tileset on the other hand. Opinions! The main thing that bugs me is that when a monster is one square north of a wall or tree, the health bar gets hidden. I guess this is partially a UI thing.
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Dec 29, 2013 21:09
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Bouchacha posted:I want to see if I can translate the Crawl tiles over to ToMe but they're set up different. ToMe has each unit tile as a separate file, while Crawl uses a huge sheet and presumably defines it by pixel location (i.e. Orcs = 23x73x33x103). What would be the easiest way to chop up the Crawl tilesheet into individual files based on the definitions found in game? Crawl uses one png image per tile, when the game is built (if you are making a tiles build) it combines them into a few large spritesheets. If you want to see the raw tiles, download the sources and look inside the rltiles folder. If you want the latest version you should use git. Or for 0.13 you can download it off the official dcss website.
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Dec 30, 2013 17:47
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madjackmcmad posted:I played another game of Sil recently. After reading about how the game is about running/hiding from monsters instead of fighting them, I made as sneaky and perceive-y a mans as I could. Regarding the angband-ness, this is a problem in the early floors. The tolkein stuff is a lot more distinct the deeper you go, where basically every monster is drawn from "first age middle earth" material, although some of it is very obscure. Also, once you get to this point you'll really see how progression differs from angband. Sil is a very "low magic" game. You'll become stronger, but you'll never look anything like a high level angband character.
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Jan 4, 2014 14:41
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andrew smash posted:Is it possible to force chests open in sil or are you poo poo out of luck if you haven't been pumping perception? You can use a staff of freedom or song of freedom.
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Jan 11, 2014 15:55
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The insane levels of item interaction and what you can do is arguably the core feature of Nethack. You have a level of freedom which I don't think any other roguelike quite reaches. This is both a good thing and a bad thing. You may want to look at one of the more recent forks of the game though (unnethack, nethack4, dynahack are the ones I can think of off the top of my head), which have a lot of quality-of-life improvements. Nethack4 is the most conservative in terms of what it changes (seems to focus more on usability than gameplay). ADOM owes a lot to nethack so it also has a number of weird tricks, but it doesn't quite reach the same level. There are a surprising number of obscure strategies in nethack, and I've been told new ones are still discovered occasionally. That is remarkable for a game that hasn't seen any major design changes since the late 90's.
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Jan 12, 2014 21:15
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You can take flanking without dodging, but they go REALLY well together to the point that you really should take both. Many or most of your attacks will be from flanking which means you will usually have the +3 dodging bonus. Plus it leads into sprinting which you probably want in the lategame anyway. For the build in that video, charge goes well with flanking but it's hard to get good use of it early on. The character in that video would need a 6lb weapon, which is kind of huge. I don't like using anything that heavy... even with characters that end up getting massive str scores, I think it's better to use a light weapon with momentum, rapid attack, two weapon, etc.
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Jan 14, 2014 15:43
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Teleglitch is pretty fun, but I think it's worth pointing out, the game isn't really that random. Layouts are a bit randomized, but a given level will still always have the same general setpeices and flow to it. Also, while monster and loot placement is somewhat random, levels will always have the same loot and monsters in them (you'll just find them in different rooms). What I mean is, if you explore the entire thing, you will always come out with the same guns, ammo, crafting materials, etc. So because of that, progression is essentially 100% determined: if you've played the game before, you can know exactly what you'll face when heading into the next level. The randomness is enough to allow the permadeath to work until you beat the game once, but after that I think it loses its replay value - every run feels more or less the same.
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Jan 24, 2014 12:13
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Tollymain posted:I'm curious, why do people often use multiple languages for a single game? It basically comes down to different languages being useful for different things. A big project like DCSS can often look like this. The game is really in C++, but there are a bunch of specific areas where something else will work better.
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Mar 18, 2014 13:37
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lordfrikk posted:I tried playing FTL again and enabled the advanced mode. I went with Engi A and found Flak really early, which was pretty good. Then I found Vulcan Cannon You'll usually need to get through all 3 phases without repairs, unless you have a hull repair drone. Very rarely you might be able to hit a repair node between phases, but don't count on it. You mostly want to jump to those while heading towards the endboss. Have upgraded engines, level 3 shields, and stealth, and you can make it through without taking much damage at all. Just focus on taking out their weapons first. And if you have a teleporter, leaving one of the guys in the weapon pods alive, while killing the rest of the enemy crew is a good strategy. You take your time in phase 1 and do this, since it's easy to render the ship harmless (you can't disable the phase 2 and 3 superweapons, which is part of why stealth is so useful here).
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Apr 22, 2014 13:37
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It's mostly bug fixes, and from what I heard, after that the plan is to start implementing all the unfinished stuff in incursion (which there's a lot of).
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Jun 11, 2014 20:17
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If you're lucky enough in Rogue to find 2 rings of slow digestion, you can completely stop hunger. Combine that with a scroll of scare monster (drop it on the floor) and you can safely grind xp as long as you want. You'd need to be very lucky to pull this off, but that's the classic way to cheese your way to victory. Monsters will walk right up to you, but won't attack you as long as you're standing on the scroll. If you move on/off the square, make sure you don't pick it up again. And don't do this on a level with dragons. A more likely way to win is to start diving once things get really hard, and only fight stuff as a last resort (and if you do have to fight stuff, use wands or some other item, because straight melee will get you killed). If you can't safely get the amulet on level 26, it will keep generating on level 27+. I hope you found some good wands, and used identify scrolls on them. You'll win eventually if you are good at the game, but there's a huge luck factor in Rogue as well. You'll need both luck and skill to win.
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Jun 14, 2014 19:53
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Reive posted:Can someone recommend me a roguelike that doesn't over do it with mechanics? You just described Brogue. It's well designed and minimalistic, without being too shallow.
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Jul 8, 2014 16:58
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The new version has some very nice improvements. I didn't like 1.7.3 much for various reasons, but the new version fixes those.
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Jul 8, 2014 19:35
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Seedge posted:I know it's kinda old to the thread, but Rogue Legacy is coming out on PS4 soon, and I was looking for the Goonmind™ opinion. Worth full price? Replayable much? Regardless of the debates over "what is a roguelike", permadeath is an essential element to the genre. Generally speaking, there must be a condition where you can lose the game and be forced to start over. In rogue legacy, when you die, not only do you keep everything you have, but it's actually the only time in the game where you can level up. The dungeon layout is randomized on each life, but your progress through it (boss kills) is retained. That said, it's an ok platformer.
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Jul 22, 2014 13:06
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Turtlicious posted:No permadeath in Tome4 you have lives. Or are you saying Super Mario is a roguelike? There is permadeath if you run out of lives and there is a hardcore option where you only have 1 life. Regardless of which mode you play, it's possible to lose the game. Normal mode just makes it take longer. Have you actually played rogue legacy? When you die in that game, you don't lose _anything_, and it is literally impossible to, because the entire progression mechanic is tied to dying. I'm not arguing this is a bad thing, just that there is no in-game way to actually lose. EvilMike fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Jul 23, 2014 |
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Jul 23, 2014 18:27
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Can you still stack movement speed up to insane values? The only cursed character took as much speed boosting stuff as he could, which basically meant time was stopped whenever he wasn't meleeing something. Could run from one end of charred scar to the other in like 20 turns, and most of that was waiting for the movement infusion to recharge, iirc. What makes it all possible is the way speed bonuses stack multiplicatively.
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Aug 26, 2014 21:22
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Zereth posted:I'm pretty sure that involved a lot of collaborating and creaking open the game code to look at text strings and such, though. there's an official guidebook where all the info in it was obtained through "legit" methods. You can tell because it has missing information, or mentions stuff that is still "unknown". There is also an expanded guidebook which used reverse engineering to get additional info.
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Sep 12, 2014 11:43
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