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  • Locked thread
RickoniX
Dec 4, 2005

A human or elf?

NO NOT A BADGER YOU GOON


Does anyone else think Zalgus is awful? His chain is slow as poo poo and isn't really worth hitting, his w would be good if his base damage wasn't really low to compensate for people getting it at 1, his e has a huge delay and doesn't really have the damage or the ratios to justify trying to hit it, and his ult is the only worthwhile spell he has and it's still mediocre at best

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Mr. Unlucky
Nov 1, 2006


Evil Z posted:

We're not delving into business model stuff just yet. What I will say is this: We will never have aspects of "pay2win" in Dawngate. If we do, I won't be there.

Our team is all aware of (read we all play...we also hired Miss Moneypenny, the former Monetization Director at Riot) what is expected from players when it comes to Micro transactions. We're going to end up doing some things that are familiar, and trying a few new things, which will be adjusted based on player feedback.

I'm guessing it'll feature the exciting revelation of EA's other free to play endeavors, the slot machine! I hope you guys like paying potentially thousands of real life dollars for a chance at getting something you want... but why stop there? That's thinking truly small, now you have Riot's famous Miss Moneypenny so you can bring microtransactions to a whole new level of evil! I look forward to seeing how this pans out, I expect great things out of you.

Cuntellectual
Aug 6, 2010

You see this post?

It's the Gosh Darn APOCALYPSE, baby!

WOO!

I don't have much to add other then I can't believe that of all the Dota-esque Warcraft 3 maps to get their own spin off, this was the one to do so.

Minrad
Sep 26, 2007

I will never forget your smiles. I feel like I saved the world today. Just feeling like that is enough for me.



RickoniX posted:

S Tier: Kel Moya Desecrator
A Tier: Dibs Amarynth Petrus Cerulean
B Tier: Nissa Mikella Fenmore Voluc Zeri
C Tier: Friea Varion
D Tier: Kindra Renzo

Thoughts

Renzo is most definitely not D tier, and I wouldn't put any hero with hard stuns below B.

Time to oil up for your Renzownage.

Any suggestions for junglers? Most feel pathetically slow compared to laning, and you'll always fall behind unless you can do very well ganking lanes.

Maybe some duo jungle antics would be required. How is EXP split between heroes?

Dizz
Feb 14, 2010


L L


Minrad posted:

Renzo is most definitely not D tier, and I wouldn't put any hero with hard stuns below B.

Time to oil up for your Renzownage.

Any suggestions for junglers? Most feel pathetically slow compared to laning, and you'll always fall behind unless you can do very well ganking lanes.

Maybe some duo jungle antics would be required. How is EXP split between heroes?

Moya and Petrus are amazing junglers and belong there instead of a lane. Voluc is also a good jungler but I've not tried him yet.

I'm not sure about dual jungle but it's big enough where both heroes can go to each side and get good experience and gold, but one would have to fight the enemy jungler.

RickoniX
Dec 4, 2005

A human or elf?

NO NOT A BADGER YOU GOON


Dizz posted:

Moya and Petrus are amazing junglers and belong there instead of a lane. Voluc is also a good jungler but I've not tried him yet.

I'm not sure about dual jungle but it's big enough where both heroes can go to each side and get good experience and gold, but one would have to fight the enemy jungler.

Voluc and Freia voth jungle very fast but fall off hard in the late game, Kel and Moya are probably the best two junglers with Petrus and Desecrator close behind

Dizz
Feb 14, 2010


L L


Kel is a jungler? I thought he was a lane support. No wonder I've lost all the games I've played with him [winning games due to a leaver don't count ]

E: Zalgus and Zeri are both also bullshit. He needs way more nerfs.

Dizz fucked around with this message at Sep 29, 2013 around 03:04

RickoniX
Dec 4, 2005

A human or elf?

NO NOT A BADGER YOU GOON


After a bit more playing and a balance patch I've reconsidered a few people on the tier list

S Tier: Kel Moya Dibs
A Tier: Amarynth Petrus Raina Desecrator Fenmore
B Tier: Nissa Mikella Voluc Zeri Cerulean
C Tier: Friea Varion Zalgus
D Tier: Kindra Renzo

Radical
Apr 6, 2011



Petrus wins every game where both teams have him at least.

An A tier hero

Dizz
Feb 14, 2010


L L


RickoniX posted:

After a bit more playing and a balance patch I've reconsidered a few people on the tier list

S Tier: Kel Moya Dibs
A Tier: Amarynth Petrus Raina Desecrator Fenmore
B Tier: Nissa Mikella Voluc Zeri Cerulean
C Tier: Friea Varion Zalgus
D Tier: Kindra Renzo

S Tier: Kel Moya Dibs Zalgus Desecrator
A Tier: Everyone else that isn't Varion and Freia
Butt Tier: Varion Freia

RickoniX
Dec 4, 2005

A human or elf?

NO NOT A BADGER YOU GOON


So the thread's dead, but I figured I'd post this for closure

quote:

I've been honestly surprised I've seen no one else post anything like this, and being unable to post this on the forums I'll post it here.
Waystone Games has said multiple times that they'd never sell power but that their monetization scheme was not ready to be revealed; a lot of people I talked to assumed this meant that skins only would be sold and all shapers would be free. All the people I played Dawngate with were rather surprised by this move, and not in a good way.
Shapers or heroes or champions or whatever you want to call them are the basest form of power available, if you don't have the entire roster at your disposal you are intrinsically at a disadvantage to someone who does; even with the free rotation certain skill interactions and synergies mean that there are times Dibs will be a superior pick to Zeri and times when the opposite is true, so someone who does not own both is at a reduced potential both for and against any given team.
Even with current cost (and there is no guarantee future shapers will not cost more) it will take approximately 100 games to unlock the entire roster and this number will only go up as the lineup expands.
I quite enjoy Dawngate as a game, it's a mechanically superior League of Legends that is actually willing to change the basic formula but this is a huge turnoff not only because of the innate problems but because it reveals that waystone games is willing to, if not outright lie, stretch the truth where it suits either their needs or the needs of EA when it affects the bottom line.

http://www.reddit.com/r/dawngate/co...elling_shapers/

Ahhpple
Dec 18, 2011



Hey I was gonna ask what everyone thought of the monetization model. Good to know most(?) people are disappointed. Too bad there are people out there who are willing to put up with and even enjoy this kind of system.

Dizz
Feb 14, 2010


L L


Ahhpple posted:

Hey I was gonna ask what everyone thought of the monetization model. Good to know most(?) people are disappointed. Too bad there are people out there who are willing to put up with and even enjoy this kind of system.

In my opinion, the game is going down a terrible path and I'm just gonna leave it there. I'm sure the game will become a giant success because people love spending money irresponsibly but at least I can't be blamed for this one this time.

MrTheDevious
May 7, 2006

Ahh nostalgia, you cruel bitch


Just got a beta key in 5 mins by hopping into their Twitch channel and hitting follow, any goons still playing this? I play League so I'm not super pissed about having to play matches to unlock champs

Edit - nevermind this game is awful at the moment, I'll wait a while to try again

MrTheDevious fucked around with this message at Oct 13, 2013 around 01:55

Corbeau
Sep 12, 2010

Jack of All Trades


Is this thread dead for good? Because I'd really like to discuss the game and maybe play with some people, since it feels like an improved version of League (and I really don't see the issue with the monetization system).

Brannock
Feb 9, 2006

by exmarx


Fallen Rib

Now that I'm on winter break I'd be happy to try out other games. It looks like the Dawngate is only open at specific times though.

Dizz
Feb 14, 2010


L L


Thread's been dead for a long time ever since they mentioned selling heroes [After specifically saying they wouldn't do such a thing] so most goons left before the poo poo pile got bigger. I'm not sure if it still has the limited opening windows so take a peep at the website I guess.

foutre
Sep 4, 2011

RIP ZEEZ


Brannock posted:

Now that I'm on winter break I'd be happy to try out other games. It looks like the Dawngate is only open at specific times though.

I'm on break for a couple more days, if I can get a key I'll play with you. I've been signed up for a key for a really long time though, so who knows if I'll ever get in.

Not sure that I'm down for another grind like League, which is a little unfair but hey.

Logicone
Nov 3, 2012

Fur proud service to ze Axis, I hereby avard myself und mein subordinates ze Better zan Herp Ribbon!

You get ze ribbon! Und YOU get ze ribbon! EVERYONE gets ze ribbon!

Except Herp. Arschloch.


I'm actually sitting on two extra beta keys right now for this game - I got them at a LAN party two weekends ago, and nobody I knew was interested in them. Shoot me a PM/figure out a way for me to get in touch with you, and I'll gladly give you one.

Corbeau
Sep 12, 2010

Jack of All Trades


Logicone posted:

I'm actually sitting on two extra beta keys right now for this game - I got them at a LAN party two weekends ago, and nobody I knew was interested in them. Shoot me a PM/figure out a way for me to get in touch with you, and I'll gladly give you one.

I know a goon who doesn't have PM access who could use one (he's to blame for me playing MOBAs in the first place). I do have PMs working.

Wonder if that's the same LAN where my key originated, since I got mine from a friend who went to a LAN two weekends ago.

Dizz posted:

Thread's been dead for a long time ever since they mentioned selling heroes [After specifically saying they wouldn't do such a thing] so most goons left before the poo poo pile got bigger. I'm not sure if it still has the limited opening windows so take a peep at the website I guess.

They said "not selling power," as far as I can make out historically. To me that means "you can't buy power that's unobtainable otherwise" ala LoL. I'd rather not have an IP grind but I don't know anyone who spent money on it in League. Skins, on the other hand...

Really though, EA's behind it. Expect to get screwed on the business model. Dawngate is probably the only beta agreement in which I really did read all the fine print. The game itself feels straight-up like League-but-better though, so I'm willing to put up with a League-based business model.

Corbeau fucked around with this message at Dec 19, 2013 around 01:21

ViggyNash
Oct 9, 2012


I was ready to harp on this about it trying to ride DOTA 2's coattails (the art design is waaay too similar), but after seeing the map design I'm somewhat interested. The metagame will be similar, but the design is different enough with the addition of spirit wells to require very different strategies.

Too bad it is destined to develop yet another lovely MOBA community. It's unavoidable.

Tsurupettan
Mar 26, 2011

My many CoX, always poised, always ready, always willing to thrust.

Corbeau posted:

They said "not selling power," as far as I can make out historically. To me that means "you can't buy power that's unobtainable otherwise" ala LoL. I'd rather not have an IP grind but I don't know anyone who spent money on it in League. Skins, on the other hand...

Really though, EA's behind it. Expect to get screwed on the business model. Dawngate is probably the only beta agreement in which I really did read all the fine print. The game itself feels straight-up like League-but-better though, so I'm willing to put up with a League-based business model.

The problem with League's model was the horrible loving hamfisted rune page bullshit that literally exists just to be an artificial gate to buying more heroes and waste your time. SMITE has the same earn-points-to-buy-heroes thing going on and it feels a lot more friendly since it doesn't have rune pages.

Corbeau
Sep 12, 2010

Jack of All Trades


Tsurupettan posted:

The problem with League's model was the horrible loving hamfisted rune page bullshit that literally exists just to be an artificial gate to buying more heroes and waste your time. SMITE has the same earn-points-to-buy-heroes thing going on and it feels a lot more friendly since it doesn't have rune pages.

Exactly, a thousand times over. Champions aren't the painful grind in League. It's runes. Though I thought runes were a bigger deal starting out than they really are.

There will be a rune grind, or equivalent, for Dawngate. Dead positive. And I'll play it anyway because it's a fun game.

ViggyNash posted:

I was ready to harp on this about it trying to ride DOTA 2's coattails (the art design is waaay too similar), but after seeing the map design I'm somewhat interested. The metagame will be similar, but the design is different enough with the addition of spirit wells to require very different strategies.

Too bad it is destined to develop yet another lovely MOBA community. It's unavoidable.

If you want to see a game based directly on DOTA 2, look at Strife. That game seems super focused on being "accessible DOTA2." Dawngate is based on League, and it shows. The art style threw me a bit and it took playing to feel the difference: the abilities, attacks, and movement all feel very much League, not DOTA. Heck, even the map is basically "5v5-sized Twisted Treeline." Which is why I'm about a thousand times more interested in Dawngate after trying both.

To feed into discussion, there are several reasons I find Dawngate promising:

- The biggest single change is the two-lane symmetrical map with a huge jungle containing many more objectives. This has the potential to cause a wide variety of interesting jungle fights and new roaming strategies while avoiding some of the balance problems (between purple side and blue side) that have cropped up with the jungle on Summoner's Rift (and that Riot keeps desperately trying to band-aid).

- The item system is extremely intuitive compared to Dota/LoL/Strife: instead of combining items, each item has it's own tree of upgrades (and each tree focuses on specific stats, with different branches primarily adding different passive abilities). One could argue this as a minus, but how often do people really change build path in the middle in LoL? It can happen, but very rarely. Dawngate's itemization was very easy to grasp compared to my experiences learning the shop in other MOBAs.

- The role system gives every type of champion good money while still letting people shape their strategy around particular styles of play. You'd act differently in lane against a roaming Predator support than against a Tactician harasser, while disrupting a Gladiator farmer is enormously more important than poking their Tactician.

- The Power/Haste/Mastery item system (with life/armor/magic resist for defensive stats) is much more elegant and open-ended towards character design than League's mess of specific stat itemization that only really works with part of the cast. Characters being differentiated by their ratios, rather than scaling on completely different stats altogether, feels very intuitive while retaining distinct character types. Again, while I wouldn't say that Dawngate's itemization is strictly better, it is definitely easier to learn without sacrificing practical depth (at least as far as I can tell).

- Warding in Dawngate is simple, rewards teamwork, and doesn't cripple someone's build path with special items specifically to enable it. Each character gets a single ward, for free, that they can periodically reposition around the map. Importantly, the map is designed with this in mind (unlike poor old Summoner's Rift).

- Games are shorter. Not necessarily by as much as they advertise, but my game sense was definitely thrown off playing Dawngate. It feels like a game of Dawngate at 20 minutes is where a game of League would be at 30 minutes.

- Dawngate does all of the above while feeling almost precisely like League when it comes to character control. That's an enormous plus to me. Dawngate feels just like LoL++.

- If they release an Angus skin for Renzo, they will win the MOBA wars forever.

This is counterbalanced by my list of complaints:

- The beta servers are only online 4 days each week.

- A lot of their characters feel mechanically pilfered from other MOBAs. There are some great exceptions though.

- I'm not convinced that having a role explicitly for snowballing is a good idea for any MOBA. Prepare to see a lot of Yi-zone (with whoever the equivalent happens to be at the time - Kindra has been the big offender from what I've seen) at the lower levels of Dawngate MMR.

Corbeau fucked around with this message at Dec 19, 2013 around 02:31

Brannock
Feb 9, 2006

by exmarx


Fallen Rib

Good timing, looks like the Dawngate is open tomorrow until Sunday. I'll take a look-see after my last final is done.

MrTheDevious
May 7, 2006

Ahh nostalgia, you cruel bitch


Gonna give this another try and see how far it's come. It DOES feel a lot like League, but last time I played, the snowball effect was MASSIVE. Games were based on which team had the first guy to get swole as gently caress in 10 minutes then 1v5 the other team while scratching his balls

Corbeau
Sep 12, 2010

Jack of All Trades


So I finally got to play a couple of close games with people who actually knew MOBA basics on both sides. I can now confidently say that this game is fantastic. The biggest problem has got to be the relatively small size of the beta playerbase and the way it compresses matchmaking ratings.

Also the King of Masks is a great character. While none of Dawngate's ADCs have clicked for me, I'm absolutely loving it's mage designs.

Corbeau fucked around with this message at Dec 21, 2013 around 09:00

ScottP
Jul 22, 2008


In case anyone still has this game installed a new hero(shaper??) got patched in a few days ago. He's a little overpowered but kinda cool?

They also added a version of LoL runes, except now they're puzzle pieces that you gotta fit together 'n stuff. It's gimmicky but I like that they've incorporated the passives into it (i.e. "do more damage if you keep hitting the same dude," "run faster if low HP enemies nearby") and you have to balance those with boring stat boosts (passives have really awkward shaped pieces).

This game is laid-back and fun, I recommend getting in on it while the community is still good and there's no cash shop! And the art easily beats out LoL and Dota so that's good too!!

ScottP fucked around with this message at Jan 17, 2014 around 05:47

Apollove
May 31, 2013


just started playing this game, I really like it so far.

bara godzilla
Jul 27, 2010



Game is pretty okay. I'm enjoying it well enough as a distraction from Smite. That being said, there doesn't seem much that would attract players away from LoL or DotA2, unless you want to get in on the ground floor of A Decent Moba or play as a graveyard house.

Psyker
Jun 21, 2004

[Binge and] Purge the xenos!


This is a fantastic game.

The concept that your chosen role in character select confers bonuses to gameplay is a good idea, and opens up many characters to different roles. With that said, there are some balancing issues around but nothing drastic. This game needs more attention, really.

It's also in what's effectively open beta.

Hugoon Chavez
Nov 4, 2011

THUNDERDOME LOSER


Started playing this after getting an invite god knows when.

Is it me or it takes around 40 wins before I can buy a shaper? Seems a tad much...

Psyker
Jun 21, 2004

[Binge and] Purge the xenos!


It's probably around 30 or so. It's about the same as league.

Hugoon Chavez
Nov 4, 2011

THUNDERDOME LOSER


After playing for a few hours:

This game is fun! It feels very polished, which is great. The UI is pretty clear and you can tell what's happening most of the time.

That said, many shapers feel kind of similar (how many boomerang skills are there, just in the week's free rotation?), the metagame with seals and poo poo like that is pretty weird, and no explanation is given, and they MUST add some kind of anti-afk feature because it's literally impossible to be on a match were someone doesn't leave.

I don't see Dawngate going too far when competing against Dota2, LoL, and now HotS, but it's pretty good.

Chernobyl Peace Prize
May 7, 2007

Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.


Started playing this in the past few days, and my only gripes so far are:
1. Do you ever get sparks from the post-game present boxes, or only the pieces that need them to fill in? Because I haven't gotten any more sparks yet, and if that's just a mandatory points-sink, booo.
2. The only time I see someone playing Zeri (paint girl?) and sheep tank (Kel?) competently is if it's me or a friend I'm queueing with, which is really unfortunate.
3. I don't really like the Predator role, just as a concept. The other 3 interact with how you get gold from farming and where (jungle, laning actively, or laning passively while someone else probably lanes actively), but Predator's the "if they feed you get a ton of gold, if they don't you're less effective than a jungler with a decent clear," which feels like the kind of hard-carry nonsense this game otherwise does a good job of shying away from.

On the plus sides:
Zalgus is really fun, and I'm going to be sad when he's out of the rotation. Same for Salous (sp? lizard version of Lee Sin from league), who is just hilarious great for ganking with.

Also, there are items that increase your AA range and reduce cooldowns on making AA hits. I don't care if they're good items, because they're Interesting items (something this game does an amazing job with in general).

nessin
Feb 7, 2010


Just found this and its the first MOBA (outside of Smite) that I can stand. The single fact that they got rid of mechanics that have only existed because of the limitations of the Warcraft 3 modding capabilities that other developers didn't want to remove (mandatory creep deny and last hitting) alone is enough to put it ahead of every other one I've played. The role system is just icing on the cake. I can't compare the monetization systems since I never got that far into LoL/HoN/Dota2 to make a good comparison, nor am I interested in buying anything beyond maybe a couple shapers once I find a couple I really enjoy so its kind of moot for me anyways.

Also haven't gotten far enough to see how much of a grind their puzzle system is, but I'll be playing it off and on when I get the MOBA itch since none of the other overhead camera games have worked for me.

OxMan
May 13, 2006

COME SEE
GRAVE DIGGER
LIVE AT MONSTER TRUCK JAM 2KXX




Hey OP I never played any MOBAs mostly because when I get into a game there's never any handholding re: equipment and leveling strategy. Is this game newb friendly in that regard or do you have the same giant list of poo poo from which I don't know what to buy?

Comrayn
Jul 22, 2008


OxMan posted:

Hey OP I never played any MOBAs mostly because when I get into a game there's never any handholding re: equipment and leveling strategy. Is this game newb friendly in that regard or do you have the same giant list of poo poo from which I don't know what to buy?

There's no tutorial or anything so I doubt it has what you're looking for. There are recommended items at the top of the store but at no point does the game even tell you there's a store or how to use it so if you're not already familiar with LoL or Dota you'll be even worse off than you are in those games.

I had to go to a fan site and look up what those spirit well things are or whatever they're called with all the little dudes mining. I've only played a few games so I could be totally off but my impression so far is that it's LoL with harder snowballing and some of the limitations of the Warcraft 3 engine that they programmed into their own drat game taken out.

Edit: To be fair my view that snowballing/getting fed is bigger in this is probably just because I don't really understand any of the heroes or the general flow of the game beyond the basic formula.The game doesn't seem to be built on a jumbled mess of code written by a bunch of modders like LoL was so that's a definite plus.

Comrayn fucked around with this message at May 11, 2014 around 14:02

Comrayn
Jul 22, 2008


I guess no goons are playing but the game is in open beta now for anyone wondering and servers appear to be up 24/7.

I am enjoying it and the improvements they've made over the clunky ways things work in similar games are really nice. They've been talked about earlier in the thread but a few of them are:
  • The map is actually symmetrical instead of a dumb copy of a Warcraft 3 map so there shouldn't be a slight advantage to one team.
  • Wards aren't bought, everyone can only place one with a cooldown equal to its duration of a few minutes. This let's you not have to be a ward buying chump with no items if you're playing support especially combined with the next thing.
  • You pick the way you earn gold by choosing your role before the game starts. Everyone still gets gold from last hitting and you can choose to boost your gold earned from last hits more or instead from being near dying minions and earn gold for harassing, jungle monsters, etc. It lets you play any character in any role if you like being ranged AD carry but your buddy who loves support characters is better at last hitting or something
  • Items are useful for everyone. You don't have to worry about building AP on an AD character or something because its one stat and your spells or autoattacks get more benefit depending on what's appropriate for that character. The item upgrading tree is more streamlined too instead of a complicated web of random poo poo combining. I'm sure some people will claim this dumbs down the items but it's not like Smite's linear upgrades, there are still choices in what you upgrade to. I haven't missed the original Dota system at all.
  • Pace of fights seems to be faster and players generally stronger than LoL which should make it feel nicer to people used to Dota 2
  • More map objectives from the spirit wells
  • Other stuff I guess. I'm tired of writing.

My only complaint is that right now there is a horrible unlock grind like League of Legends but not quite as bad. People on reddit swear the unlock system is being reworked so I guess I'll hold onto hope.

Chernobyl Peace Prize
May 7, 2007

Or later, later's fine.
But now would be good.


I've been playing a ton of Dawngate, and it is probably my favorite moba at the moment.

The unlock system is kind of league-painful (but really no worse than League or Smite for general pace of currency gain), except you can get character/skin unlocks as Divine rewards (I've gotten 4 so far), which is cool. No character really feels like a clunker, and the only comically overpowered pile of bullshit right now is Mina, because her shield probably needs a 0 knocked off of its values and makes lanes against a competent one impossible to counter in any way, mitigated only by the fact that the really good support is weak when they aren't supporting, which is a unique weakness for the character because _____.

Otherwise though: super-cool game, ward system's great, I LOVE the role system, and tying super-minions to the middle objective while making the enemy base a raid boss you have to systematically disable is a genius idea.

Fuuuuck Mina, though.

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DatonKallandor
Aug 21, 2009

"I can no longer sit back and allow nationalist shitposting, nationalist indoctrination, nationalist subversion, and the German nationalist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious game balance."


Yeah I started playing a few days ago and it's by far the best MOBA on the market at the moment (since they ruined BLC anyway).
If anyone wants to play with other goons, just jump on the CTS Mumble - there's a Dawngate channel to idle in and wait till someone else jumps on.

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