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AegisP
Oct 5, 2008
Units of ETFs on a designated stock exchange are specifically listed as qualifying investments for TFSAs, for which NYSE Arca is one, so that's good. And they don't run afoul of being a derivative instrument, since the ETF nature of it should cap your loss at your cost.*

So then it comes down to whether or not you would running afoul of 146.2(6) of the ITA, which is the carrying on a business exception (and holding non-qualifying investments). Which, as mentioned, is vague, likely due to the fact-specific nature of the determination (on an individual by individual basis). Closest reference is probably IT-479R - Transactions in Securities, as starting at section 9 it discusses whether to treat securities income as on account of income or capital, and what factors would be looked at to determine if a taxpayer is carrying on a business:

quote:

11. Some of the factors to be considered in ascertaining whether the taxpayer's course of conduct indicates the carrying on of a business are as follows:

(a) frequency of transactions - a history of extensive buying and selling of securities or of a quick turnover of properties,

(b) period of ownership - securities are usually owned only for a short period of time,

(c) knowledge of securities markets - the taxpayer has some knowledge of or experience in the securities markets,

(d) security transactions form a part of a taxpayer's ordinary business,

(e) time spent - a substantial part of the taxpayer's time is spent studying the securities markets and investigating potential purchases,

(f) financing - security purchases are financed primarily on margin or by some other form of debt,

(g) advertising - the taxpayer has advertised or otherwise made it known that he is willing to purchase securities, and

(h) in the case of shares, their nature - normally speculative in nature or of a non-dividend type.

12. Although none of the individual factors in 11 above may be sufficient to characterize the activities of a taxpayer as a business, the combination of a number of those factors may well be sufficient for that purpose. Further, subsection 248(1) defines the term "business" to include "an adventure or concern in the nature of trade" and the courts have held that "an adventure or concern in the nature of trade" can include an isolated transaction in shares where the "course of conduct" and "intention" clearly indicate it to be such.

13. A taxpayer's intention to sell at a gain is not sufficient, by itself, to establish that the taxpayer was involved in an adventure or concern in the nature of trade. That intention is almost invariably present even when a true investment has been acquired if circumstances should arise that would make it financially more beneficial to sell the investment than to continue to hold it. Where, however, one or other of the above tests clearly suggests an adventure or concern in the nature of trade and, in addition, it can be established or inferred that the taxpayer's intention was to sell the property at the first suitable opportunity, intention will be viewed as corroborative evidence. On the other hand, inability to establish an intention to sell does not preclude a transaction from being regarded as an adventure or concern in the nature of trade if it can otherwise be so regarded pursuant to one or more of the above tests.

The last few paragraphs also make reference to IT-459 - Adventure or Concern in the Nature of Trade, which is just more technical reading.

* See S3-F10-C1, Qualified Investments – RRSPs, RESPs, RRIFs, RDSPs, and TFSAs:

quote:

Futures contracts and other derivative instruments in respect of which the holder's risk of loss may exceed the holder's cost are not qualified investments. The fact that a broker may be willing to put in place an arrangement to close out a futures contract so as to minimize the possibility of the registered plan going into a loss position does not overcome this restriction.

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qhat
Jul 6, 2015


Second on the warning about leveraged ETFs. A 3x leverage S&P500 ETF doesn’t give you 3x the S&P500 over anything except the short term (matter of days). Holding this only makes sense if you are daytrading, which you aren’t, so it’s probably not a good idea. Also be careful about holding such risky investments in your TFSA; contribution room is hard to come by and they are a godsend in your retirement if it does well over the long term. On top of that you can’t claim capital losses in a TFSA. All things considered they aren’t the best to gamble with, just do that in a non registered account.

pokeyman
Nov 26, 2006

That elephant ate my entire platoon.

Thank you for this post! Very helpful reference.

Technomancer
May 7, 2007
For all your technomagical needs
I have a question for you. I have approximately $200,000 dollars in an RRSP mutual fund with an ER of around 2.25%, which is about $4500 a year. Now I'm looking at moving this to a RRSP ETF like VGRO or VBAL, with much lower ER (I think it's around 0.22%). Is there any reason not to do it? I checked on Investopedia, and nothing appropriate came up (meaning, I did find an article listing five different things mutual funds are better at than ETFs, but none apply to me).

VelociBacon
Dec 8, 2009

Technomancer posted:

I have a question for you. I have approximately $200,000 dollars in an RRSP mutual fund with an ER of around 2.25%, which is about $4500 a year. Now I'm looking at moving this to a RRSP ETF like VGRO or VBAL, with much lower ER (I think it's around 0.22%). Is there any reason not to do it? I checked on Investopedia, and nothing appropriate came up (meaning, I did find an article listing five different things mutual funds are better at than ETFs, but none apply to me).

You have the right idea and no there's no one thing that you're now getting that is worth the 2% extra you're paying. The low MER ETF space is absolutely the right choice. You also may be paying a sales fee every time you put money in the RRSP through whoever the fund is with.

If you're moving the funds to another broker like Questrade make sure you transfer RRSP to RRSP and don't pull it out as cash!

pokeyman
Nov 26, 2006

That elephant ate my entire platoon.

Technomancer posted:

I have a question for you. I have approximately $200,000 dollars in an RRSP mutual fund with an ER of around 2.25%, which is about $4500 a year. Now I'm looking at moving this to a RRSP ETF like VGRO or VBAL, with much lower ER (I think it's around 0.22%). Is there any reason not to do it? I checked on Investopedia, and nothing appropriate came up (meaning, I did find an article listing five different things mutual funds are better at than ETFs, but none apply to me).

It’s possible the mutual fund is set up with a penalty if you sell “early” (e.g. within some number of years after purchase), so be sure to check for anything like that. If you can share the name of the fund or link the prospectus, someone will take a quick look. We could also probably figure out which asset allocation ETF has holdings closest to the mutual fund, if that sounds useful.

Other than that, I can’t think of a reason not to switch.

Technomancer
May 7, 2007
For all your technomagical needs
Thank you, that's what I thought. There is absolutely no penalty for selling, so that won't be a problem. And I'll take care that the money never leaves the RRSP space.

Subjunctive
Sep 12, 2006

✨sparkle and shine✨

AegisP posted:

So then it comes down to whether or not you would running afoul of 146.2(6) of the ITA, which is the carrying on a business exception (and holding non-qualifying investments). Which, as mentioned, is vague, likely due to the fact-specific nature of the determination (on an individual by individual basis). Closest reference is probably IT-479R - Transactions in Securities, as starting at section 9 it discusses whether to treat securities income as on account of income or capital, and what factors would be looked at to determine if a taxpayer is carrying on a business:

It makes sense that non-dividend stocks are considered more speculative, but surely it’s a small minority of investors who are primarily investing in order to earn dividends rather than looking for capital appreciation. I guess it’s the totality of the circumstances, like how just being knowledgeable about securities isn’t an automatic flag, but it was a little weird to read.

Similarly, it would be sort of funny to read a tax court judgment that hinged on “this looked a lot like trading for income, but he turns out to be really ignorant, so we’ll let it go”.

AegisP
Oct 5, 2008

Subjunctive posted:

It makes sense that non-dividend stocks are considered more speculative, but surely it’s a small minority of investors who are primarily investing in order to earn dividends rather than looking for capital appreciation. I guess it’s the totality of the circumstances, like how just being knowledgeable about securities isn’t an automatic flag, but it was a little weird to read.

Similarly, it would be sort of funny to read a tax court judgment that hinged on “this looked a lot like trading for income, but he turns out to be really ignorant, so we’ll let it go”.

My understanding was that dividend-chasing strategies are still around (having initially been popular years ago), before the advent of ETF buy-and-hold. Like, assembling a portfolio primarily of well-established Canadian banks or businesses solely for chasing dividend yields, regardless of the current critiques of the strategy. This might be weighted towards older investors?

Dividends also feature more prominently in a Canadian context of people attempting Smith Maneuvers, for ease of tracking income, and to ensure no return of capital happens which may occur with ETFs and would complicate the amount of loan interest that is deductible.

But yes, any potential Tax Court appeals would look at the entire factual context and weight the various determinants correspondingly.

HookShot
Dec 26, 2005
A large part of my portfolio is dividend-earning stocks. Things like Canadian banks and Telcos. It brings in a steady stream of income at a (usually fairly) predictable rate, and over the long term as the price of the stocks go up, not only is my overall yield on the initial investment higher, but the stock price increase is additional profit.

I realize a lot of these companies aren't growing as rapidly as some of the ETFs out there, but as a long-term strategy I think it's beneficial.

pokeyman
Nov 26, 2006

That elephant ate my entire platoon.
My understanding is there’s no long term benefit to chasing dividends aside from possibly lower taxes. But the possible downsides aren’t unique to dividends (e.g. you can have a too-concentrated portfolio either way) so whatever works!

Mantle
May 15, 2004

I think getting dividends during your accumulation phase is a drag on growth. At a minimum you are losing on the spread when you reinvest them. I think you don't benefit from dividend tax treatment if you are earning employment income at the same time.

Subjunctive
Sep 12, 2006

✨sparkle and shine✨

pokeyman posted:

My understanding is there’s no long term benefit to chasing dividends aside from possibly lower taxes. But the possible downsides aren’t unique to dividends (e.g. you can have a too-concentrated portfolio either way) so whatever works!

Dividend-earning shares also let you write off the interest if you’re leveraged to buy them, whereas without dividends they are “speculative” and not eligible for the tax deduction which honestly has never made sense to me beyond “rich people make the laws”.

pokeyman
Nov 26, 2006

That elephant ate my entire platoon.

Subjunctive posted:

Dividend-earning shares also let you write off the interest if you’re leveraged to buy them, whereas without dividends they are “speculative” and not eligible for the tax deduction which honestly has never made sense to me beyond “rich people make the laws”.

Huh, I didn’t know that. Does sound like exactly that kinda dumb law.

qhat
Jul 6, 2015


I imagine the reason is that the investment needs to have a provable cash flow. Still seems dumb, I feel like any publicly traded company should count, but whatever.

As someone mentioned above, there is no reason to prefer dividend stocks over non dividend; they do not on average show greater total returns (both dividends and price appreciation included) than companies that return earnings to shareholders via either buy backs or reinvestment of profits in the business. At most they indicate a company has cash flow, but you still need to pay attention to the liabilities of the company because it might be “fake” so to speak.

When a company pays a dividend, its stock price decreases by exactly the amount of the dividend, so it’s the same thing as selling off that stock. And yes this isn’t imagined, it’s real, because if it wasn’t there would be an arbitrage opportunity before and after the ex-dividend date. This would be when, for example, you buy the stock like a minute before ex-dividend and sell on ex dividend for the same price more or less and collect the dividend to boot. In the real world however it’s not possible to profit on stocks by doing this because no one will buy for the previous close price on ex dividend, so it’s not an opportunity you can exploit; therefore paying the dividend definitely decreased the price of the stock directly.

The tax incentives are real, but it’s offset by the fact you need to pay the tax every year. Capital gains by comparison is paid only when you sell, so the tax is deferred and the investment keeps on growing in the meantime.

By chasing dividends, you are potentially ignoring a whole class of perfectly good companies that do in fact return earnings to shareholders one way or another. IMO it’s much better to be diversified than indexing on dividends, but whatever floats your boat.

McGavin
Sep 18, 2012

A company's stock price doesn't decrease when it pays a dividend, its equity decreases.

HookShot
Dec 26, 2005
Yeah also FWIW when I say "a large part" of my portfolio is dividend stocks I mean like 30% tops. I don't think it's the be-all end-all, and I don't think it's a strategy to use exclusively.

mojo1701a
Oct 9, 2008

Oh, yeah. Loud and clear. Emphasis on LOUD!
~ David Lee Roth

Does anyone have any experience with depositing foreign pensions in a Canadian bank account?

My mom's doing her best to apply for her Polish pension but she keeps relying on my cousin to do things for her there and it's not working (I'm not going to get into why it's super-annoying that she keeps insisting that family members who are not competent or motivated do things for her).

The original plan was to set up a bank account there on her behalf and have whatever she's entitled to kept there as spending money for whenever she visits. But since that's not happening, we may as well look into the option of it being deposited here.

I guess what I'm asking is how difficult is this? My dad's already tried sending payments to someone he knows who is now living there and it was a colossal pain in the rear end to get just one payment sent.

HookShot
Dec 26, 2005
I have no experience with Poland specifically but yeah, it tends to be a massive pain and it will likely be easiest for her to open an account over there, get it deposited there, and move it over herself.

Calumanjaro
Nov 11, 2011
Hey guys. Our mortgage is coming up in about three years, and I'm looking to start a short-term fund to save until then. I was thinking GoC bonds would be a good investment over the next couple years.

Does Canada have any good low-fee options for buying bonds? I'm with Q-trade for my TFSA and their fixed income offerings don't seem great.

McGavin
Sep 18, 2012

Canada discontinued the Canada Savings Bonds program in 2017. The best alternative is getting a GIC from your bank, which will give you a guaranteed return of up to 5%.

pokeyman
Nov 26, 2006

That elephant ate my entire platoon.
There's a GIC table at https://www.highinterestsavings.ca/gic-rates/ if you want to do some comparison shopping. Note the dropdown menu to select for availability by province. Also note the curve is somewhat inverted, i.e. you can get higher rates for a 1-year GIC than a 3-year GIC.

You can also get GICs from big bank brands.

I think you'll need some kind of account with the bank offering the GIC in order to buy. I'm not sure how a GIC broker works, maybe it's different?

Killingyouguy!
Sep 8, 2014

My credit union is pretty gung ho about GICs. What I don't understand is, I can't seem to find a portfolio for them. What is this investment in? Where does the growth come from? And if the market crashes, how do they guarantee the return?

Ps years ago I asked this thread about how to switch off my childhood bank and the responses I got were very helpful, I'm much happier with my new credit union, thank you!!

Killingyouguy! fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Jan 18, 2023

Mantle
May 15, 2004

Killingyouguy! posted:

My credit union is pretty gung ho about GICs. What I don't understand is, I can't seem to find a portfolio for them. What is this investment in? Where does the growth come from? And if the market crashes, how do they guarantee the return?

Ps years ago I asked this thread about how to switch off my childhood bank and the responses I got were very helpful, I'm much happier with my new credit union, thank you!!

The "guarantee" (the letter G in GIC) comes from the financial institution itself. The reason you get poo poo interest on GICs is because the financial institution is the one bearing the risk (the guarantee).

In addition, term deposits, including Guaranteed Investment Certificates (GICs), are eligible for CDIC deposit protection. This means that if the market crashes so much that the FI fails, the government protects your deposits.

https://www.cdic.ca/your-coverage/protecting-your-deposit/term-deposits/

E: you asked what the investment is in. It's not really an investment as I would describe it. Think of it like a loan to your bank. They pay you 5% and turn around and use your money to capitalize their own loans to others at 8%. You aren't investing in anything because you don't get any ownership in anything from a gic.

Mantle fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Jan 18, 2023

Risky Bisquick
Jan 18, 2008

PLEASE LET ME WRITE YOUR VICTIM IMPACT STATEMENT SO I CAN FURTHER DEMONSTRATE THE CALAMITY THAT IS OUR JUSTICE SYSTEM.



Buglord

Killingyouguy! posted:

My credit union is pretty gung ho about GICs. What I don't understand is, I can't seem to find a portfolio for them. What is this investment in? Where does the growth come from? And if the market crashes, how do they guarantee the return?

Ps years ago I asked this thread about how to switch off my childhood bank and the responses I got were very helpful, I'm much happier with my new credit union, thank you!!

Not all of their money is in publicly traded investments. In short, they take your money, and lend your money to other people to make money. If the market tanks they still make money, they are not taking on unnecessary risk to offer you those GIC rates by any means.

You can't really trace a 1:1 line between your money and its return for the bank, but you can look at the financial statement of your CU to see which units are generating profits for the organization. From here you can get a general sense of what % of each dollar goes where.

Example: https://www.firstontario.com/assets/pdfs/annual-reports/2021%20Audited%20Financial%20Statments%20Final%20-%20Website.pdf

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg
:colbert:

I love how prime is something like 6.7% and banks like Simplii are offering a whopping .4% on their HIGH INTEREST SAVINGS

:capitalism:

Subjunctive
Sep 12, 2006

✨sparkle and shine✨

RBC just emailed me about a 4.05% savings account.

Toalpaz
Mar 20, 2012

Peace through overwhelming determination

Subjunctive posted:

RBC just emailed me about a 4.05% savings account.

there's so many multi-year 5.5% GIC's out there rn.

McGavin
Sep 18, 2012

Subjunctive posted:

RBC just emailed me about a 4.05% savings account.

Wealth beyond measure, outlander.

qhat
Jul 6, 2015


Subjunctive posted:

RBC just emailed me about a 4.05% savings account.

Guarantee you that’s a bonus rate and it drops to like 1.5% after a few months.

Subjunctive
Sep 12, 2006

✨sparkle and shine✨

qhat posted:

Guarantee you that’s a bonus rate and it drops to like 1.5% after a few months.

Nah, they’re real indefinite rates, but you have to trade them through a dealer so they aren’t quite just standard savings accounts. (There are trailer fees as well, I’m sure.)

https://www.rbcroyalbank.com/products/isa/index.html

Jenkl
Aug 5, 2008

This post needs at least three times more shit!
The structure of that RBC product is incredibly confusing. It has to be purchased through a licensed advisor, and seems to be structured like a mutual fund, but does not report anything that would be required of a mutual fund.

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg
:colbert:

Toalpaz posted:

there's so many multi-year 5.5% GIC's out there rn.
Yeah, Mrs. and I were talking about that. Think were going to ladder (depending on return/time) various GICs for our "savings" out of our investment account. Time to do some GIC comparisons I guess. RBCDI has a decent tool for that IIRC.

pokeyman
Nov 26, 2006

That elephant ate my entire platoon.

slidebite posted:

Yeah, Mrs. and I were talking about that. Think were going to ladder (depending on return/time) various GICs for our "savings" out of our investment account. Time to do some GIC comparisons I guess. RBCDI has a decent tool for that IIRC.

There's https://www.highinterestsavings.ca/gic-rates/ but it's not at all a complete list.

Rukus
Mar 13, 2007

Hmph.
There's also Horizons High Interest Savings ETF, which can be traded without needing any advisor, and beats having to constantly chase promotional rates. Though I've heard that some banks (TD is supposedly one) won't let you buy it , as they'd rather you buy their own similar product (with much higher fees).

Honey Im Homme
Sep 3, 2009

The TD equivalent would be TDB8150, 4.05% interest $1000 minimum, no buy/sell fees if you buy on web broker or easy trade or w/e.

T.C.
Feb 10, 2004

Believe.

Rukus posted:

There's also Horizons High Interest Savings ETF, which can be traded without needing any advisor, and beats having to constantly chase promotional rates. Though I've heard that some banks (TD is supposedly one) won't let you buy it , as they'd rather you buy their own similar product (with much higher fees).

I have held my investment account cash in this or csav for the last while. The difference between this and which is obviously that this is more volatile in interest rates potentially. I have locked in some cash into gics and hold a bunch of my more liquid stuff in these.

The last two months have had it at around five percent but before that it was down at maybe three for some months despite it being similar prime rates. You have to keep an eye on it because you aren't going to get an update that the rate has heavily changed.

It gets me about the same return as I was getting switching between the best non promotional savings accounts ever twelve months or so with way less effort, which is great.

The savings ETFs are not insured though, vs an actual savings account or a gic.

I like the ease but it's got downsides people should be aware of.

It's interesting at the moment, because there's upside opportunity costs to think about on interest rates, which is not something a lot of us are used to. I'm definitely having to think hard about whether my risk instincts are right.

In the recent environment there were definitely risks on loans based on interest rates rising, but even a tripling in interest rates wouldn't really change the calculus on Bond returns, gics or savings accounts vs other investments. You didn't need to think about whether you were locking yourself out of a better situation in those areas.

T.C. fucked around with this message at 03:20 on Feb 8, 2023

slidebite
Nov 6, 2005

Good egg
:colbert:

Huh. That's interesting.
E:
And it appears rbcdi does not offer it

slidebite fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Feb 8, 2023

VelociBacon
Dec 8, 2009

Looks like HSBC is merging or being bought by RBC.

All my banking is through HSBC: I have a savings account, LoC, mastercard, and mortgage through them. I'm curious if anyone in the thread is an RBC enjoyer and if there are any good things to know about their products, mostly about the credit cards they offer since I'll be presumably picking one when they move over.

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pokeyman
Nov 26, 2006

That elephant ate my entire platoon.
Norbert's Gambit is very easy through RBC DI. Otherwise I didn't notice any difference from other banks or brokerages.

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