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Blind Melon posted:She is afraid he is going to turn Tommen gay, it's homophobic even if she does hate Loras on genereal principle. But there's no support for that in the posted text. She's a control freak who doesn't want her remaining son to fall under the sway of people she hates. Squires do become close to their knights, it's a thing which happens.
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Feb 9, 2014 16:23
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:But there's no support for that in the posted text. She's a control freak who doesn't want her remaining son to fall under the sway of people she hates. Squires do become close to their knights, it's a thing which happens. The second one is the only one with any sort of support and it's more Jaime saying "oh yeah he's immune to you being a whore" than Cercei saying "he's gay so he's not a real man".
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Feb 9, 2014 16:26
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Dan Didio posted:It's going to be really great when the show overtakes the books and this particular series of worms turn. Well I'll just keep watching the show anyway so whatever. Are there really people who are going to stop watching and start getting mad about "show spoilers"? That would be hilarious.
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Feb 9, 2014 16:34
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computer parts posted:The second one is the only one with any sort of support and it's more Jaime saying "oh yeah he's immune to you being a whore" than Cercei saying "he's gay so he's not a real man". I think 'that sort of man' is subtle but most make sense if she means he's gay. What other 'sort of man' would Loras be?
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Feb 9, 2014 16:58
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Alchenar posted:What other 'sort of man' would Loras be? Well, he's not Jaime, despite being outwardly similar to how he was in his youth. That's probably a huge part of it.
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Feb 9, 2014 17:03
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Alchenar posted:I think 'that sort of man' is subtle but most make sense if she means he's gay. What other 'sort of man' would Loras be? Quite. In the first quote she brings up Loras squiring for Renly apropos of nothing, the close bonds between knights and squires, and then moves straight from that into Loras being someone she doesn't want Tommen to emulate. It's fair enough to read it as her not wanting Tommen to have any sort of relationship with a Tyrell, but I don't think it's reaching to interpret it as 'you were gay with the knight you squired for, I'm not going to let you make my son gay.' Is homophobia chat better or worse than rape chat?
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Feb 9, 2014 17:12
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It's not a stretch at all for Cersei to be read as a homophobe, even taking into account her own tendencies, because she just has really weird issues around masculinity in general. She's specifically homophobic toward gay men because she sees them as less manly and therefore bad.
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Feb 9, 2014 17:15
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loquacius posted:It's not a stretch at all for Cersei to be read as a homophobe, even taking into account her own tendencies, because she just has really weird issues around masculinity in general. She's specifically homophobic toward gay men because she sees them as less manly and therefore bad. Plus she remembers what happened to the last guy that hooked up with Loras.
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Feb 9, 2014 17:22
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Stairs posted:Plus she remembers what happened to the last guy that hooked up with Loras. I guess being a spy for Littlefinger is a pretty terrible position. 
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Feb 9, 2014 17:25
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I mean like "I don't want him to learn from Loras (to be gay, also to come under a Tyrell's sway)" is really kind of clear from both excerpts. Why on earth wouldn't Cersei hate Loras for being gay AND a Tyrell? Do we need to protect Cersei's progressive credentials here? Homophobia obviously has a contemporary, non fantasy fiction reality to it. But why wouldn't Cersei use Loras' homosexuality to defame and politically push away from a position where a Tyrell has ostensible control over her son? Mexcillent fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Feb 9, 2014 |
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Feb 9, 2014 19:47
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computer parts posted:Cercei saying "he's gay so he's not a real man". That is literally what she is saying. Yes she hates Loras for lots of reasons, but to misinterpret that line requires serious blinders to general homophobic thought about gay males. E: I do love Jamie's response. rypakal fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Feb 9, 2014 |
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Feb 9, 2014 19:49
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She could be saying he is a Tyrell so he is not a real man, or he is not Jamie so he is not a real man, but when written out like this it does seem a touch rediculous.Blade_of_tyshalle posted:But there's no support for that in the posted text. She's a control freak who doesn't want her remaining son to fall under the sway of people she hates. Squires do become close to their knights, it's a thing which happens. It's an interpertation of the text, just like believing she simply hates Lora's because he is a Tyrell is an interpertation and it is hardly reaching.
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Feb 9, 2014 20:09
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Her thoughts (via free indirect discourse) specifically refer to Loras as the "Knight of Flowers" at exactly the same time that she is thinking about what kind of influence she doesn't want Loras to have on her children. In effect: she don't want none of her children ending up being knights of flowers. I mean come on! Flowers! The very idea! It's homophobia. I mean jeez.
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Feb 9, 2014 20:55
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What's controversial about thinking that some people in Westeros are homophobic? Even in a broadly accepting society, there are some people who have a problem with just about anything people can do or be, and Westeros *isn't* particularly accepting of most things. Some people are going to have a problem with dudes loving even if it's not thought of as sinful, that's what people are like, and this is especially likely in a paranoid lunatic like Cersei being protective of her one remaining son.
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Feb 9, 2014 21:06
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Also Cersei, because of her bitterness, has really definite views on what it means to be "a man" versus "a woman." EDIT: This come out when you're talking about her own children. I suspect that any explicitly homophobic remark she'd ever make would just be her always going for the easy insult or low blow if it's available. Like that one guy you know who'll always, always make fun of your "gay" sweater or your "gay" way of walking (or whatever), even when everyone in the room, if you asked them, would say they're totally fine with homosexuality. They just can't resist. DirtyRobot fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Feb 9, 2014 |
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Feb 9, 2014 21:11
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:But there's no support for that in the posted text. She's a control freak who doesn't want her remaining son to fall under the sway of people she hates. Squires do become close to their knights, it's a thing which happens. This is what I always thought - Cersei was angry because Loras/Margaery were drawing him away from her and teaching him some measure of independence. Tommen wanted to learn how to fight and be brave after he saw Loras practicing, and he told Cersei that he wanted to sit in on the small council meetings after Margaery suggested that he, as king, should learn how the realm is run (at which point Cersei had him beat Pate the whipping boy bloody to teach him not to stand up to her when she threatened to have Margaery thrwon into jail for giving him "foolish ideas"). To Cersei they were bad influences because the were challenging her ability to control the king and thus rule as Queen Regent. She just convinced herself it was because she had Tommen's best interest at heart and rationalized it using whatever reason she could grasp. Narmi fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Feb 9, 2014 |
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Feb 9, 2014 22:30
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Cersei's just a whole stew of wrong opinions and bad ideas, it's very hard to pull one ingredient out and isolate it.
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Feb 9, 2014 22:34
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Narmi posted:This is what I always thought - Cersei was angry because Loras/Margaery were drawing him away from her and teaching him some measure of independence. Tommen wanted to learn how to fight and be brave after he saw Loras practicing, and he told Cersei that he wanted to sit in on the small council meetings after Margaery suggested that he, as king, should learn how the realm is run (at which point Cersei had him beat Pate the whipping boy bloody to teach him not to stand up to her when she threatened to have Margaery thrwon into jail for giving him "foolish ideas"). It really doesn't need to be one or the other. I don't think that anyone claiming it was homophobia is saying it was 100% homophobia and had nothing whatsoever to do with her son showing some independence and developing relationships with people who aren't Cersei. I know I'm not. I'm sure that if Lora's had been he straightest most chivalrous and perfect knight who had ever lived Cersei would have had a problem with him training Tommen and would have found something else to harp on.
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Feb 10, 2014 00:30
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Blind Melon posted:It really doesn't need to be one or the other. I don't think that anyone claiming it was homophobia is saying it was 100% homophobia and had nothing whatsoever to do with her son showing some independence and developing relationships with people who aren't Cersei. I know I'm not. I'm sure that if Lora's had been he straightest most chivalrous and perfect knight who had ever lived Cersei would have had a problem with him training Tommen and would have found something else to harp on. Exactly. She doesn't hate/distrust him more because he's gay. She'd find something else. But she does explicitly make it one of the reasons. There is no other reason to question Loras's manliness other than a biased view of homosexuality.
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Feb 10, 2014 01:14
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Alchenar posted:I think 'that sort of man' is subtle but most make sense if she means he's gay. What other 'sort of man' would Loras be? A TYRELL. You remember, the family of people set to ruin hers?
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Feb 10, 2014 02:18
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quote:“Pray, who did you squire for, ser?” she asked sweetly. “Lord Renly, was it not?” Knowing that Cersei knows Loras is gay, it baffles me that people would think that Cersei disapproves of Tommen's looking up to him just because he's a Tyrell. It's even self-evident in the very line. Not even a TYRELL boy should be emulating Loras. Why would she say that if she just hates him for being a Tyrell and nothing more? gently caress, you'd think some lines in literature have multiple angles, such as Cersei doesn't like Loras because she thinks less of homosexuals. Oh yeah, AND he's in her least favorite family. These are not mutually exclusive views for a character to have. However to think that she only doesn't like him because he's a Tyrell ignores much of the blatant homophobia littered not only through her chapters but several other POVs.
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Feb 10, 2014 03:01
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15-minute preview is up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5iS3tULXMQ
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Feb 10, 2014 03:11
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webmeister posted:15-minute preview is up: 
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Feb 10, 2014 03:13
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webmeister posted:15-minute preview is up: Jesus loving Christ Isacc looks/sounds like he's 20.
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Feb 10, 2014 03:16
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Well that was pretty awesome. Best highlight: "Everything at the wedding is just the way Joffrey likes it" *lingering close-up of pigeon pie* 
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Feb 10, 2014 03:27
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Brienne's going to bite someone's ear off this season too! Season 4 best season, calling it.
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Feb 10, 2014 03:29
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Couple of other interesting things: - Jaime and Tyrion running through tunnels - Looked like a brief shot of Sansa's escape - Rickon hiding from a battle? - Drogon about to roast a little girl - Jaime doing left-handed sword-fighting, and looking annoyingly good at it - Shae hooking up with Prince Oberyn?! - That dragon shadow is definitely over King's Landing since you can clearly see the Red Keep, so I'm guessing it's from a dream sequence or something
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Feb 10, 2014 03:30
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I'm pretty sure thats Oberyn just meeting her for the first time and going to town because he's a bit of a dick
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Feb 10, 2014 03:32
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webmeister posted:- Shae hooking up with Prince Oberyn?!
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Feb 10, 2014 03:34
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I'm loving Oberyn so far. Especially the accent.
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Feb 10, 2014 03:36
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Yes, that's Ellaria Sand, not Shae. You can tell if you watched Rome. Also, I couldn't tell who it was Jaime was sparring left-handed with until the end, looks like Bronn.
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Feb 10, 2014 03:42
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Drogon the dragon looking big
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Feb 10, 2014 03:49
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There are a couple shots of Jaime and Bronn sparring around the 0:19 mark, so I guess that solves the question of who replaces Ilyn.
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Feb 10, 2014 03:56
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New Brienne scenes??? I've never been so happy to see a divergence from the books. Thank heavens the producers realize that Gwendoline Christie, especially in when sharing the screen with Nikolaj, is television gold. I was anticipating the new season before, but now I'm pretty pumped -- well done, HBO.
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Feb 10, 2014 03:57
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That last shot of Drogon looks loving incredible. I am beyond pumped.webmeister posted:- Jaime doing left-handed sword-fighting, and looking annoyingly good at it I'm guessing Bronn is toying with him. The scene might play out that Jaime looks like he may still be good then Bronn puts him on his rear end. But who knows. Also it looks like Jaime gives Brienne a new set of armour  which I'm not sure was in the book.
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Feb 10, 2014 04:00
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Abner Assington posted:There are a couple shots of Jaime and Bronn sparring around the 0:19 mark, so I guess that solves the question of who replaces Ilyn. I didn't expect that, but it makes sense. Bronn is loyal to Tyrion, so what does it matter if he knows Jaime sucks now? Plus the added benefit of Bronn's sass.
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Feb 10, 2014 04:01
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CapnAndy posted:Brienne's going to bite someone's ear off this season too! Season 4 best season, calling it. Her cackling about that was one of the best parts of the video.
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Feb 10, 2014 04:01
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Pyramids! And "Purple Reign", hehe. Has Biter survived Season 2? If so, I hope Brienne gets to bite him. e: The Slippery Nipple posted:Also it looks like Jaime gives Brienne a new set of armour It actually was: "Jaime gives her two bags full of coin, a mail hauberk, a Lothston shield, and a letter signed by King Tommen saying that she is on a royal mission." (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brienne; it's Jaime IX) meristem fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Feb 10, 2014 |
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Feb 10, 2014 04:03
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Drogon from the video (spoiler possible, I guess): http://imgur.com/DJsugxG
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Feb 10, 2014 04:06
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Gif version from the non-spoiler thread: drat this looks cool.
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Feb 10, 2014 04:11
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