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Blind Melon posted:And stuff like this: That sentence is to illustrate that Theon only thinks about sex. Which is ultimately why they cut off his penis.
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Sep 18, 2013 18:30
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Blind Melon posted:And stuff like this: I agree that Theon losing his penis isn't distinctly spelled out, but here's the part that hints at it: quote:Ramsay rose, the firelight shining on his face. “Reek, get over here. Get her ready for me.” For a moment he did not understand. “I … do you mean … m’lord, I have no … I …” And it's way more heavily implied in that exchange alone that Theon was castrated than what you quoted about Theon proving he fathered a bastard on the miller's wife. Even so, the castration was a huge point of contention among readers until the show straight up said he was. In what you quoted, Theon specifically says, "but I am no kinslayer". So are you saying that a character saying the exact opposite of what you're trying to prove is ambiguous now? All that passage proves is that he bedded her, which no one is disagreeing with. You're stretching to make this theory stick. Is it possible? Yes. Is it likely? No. Because any revelation like that would have absolutely no bearing on the overall story or character arc that Theon is on. Theories like R+L=J are widely believed and thought of as true because if they are true, they would have a huge impact on the story. This theory has none of that.
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Sep 18, 2013 18:55
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chellesandcheese posted:Theories like R+L=J are widely believed and thought of as true because if they are true, they would have a huge impact on the story. This theory has none of that. Well, it might give some people a feeling of justification when they say that Theo deserved getting his penis cut off. As far as I know people like that exist.
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Sep 18, 2013 19:03
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chellesandcheese posted:I agree that Theon losing his penis isn't distinctly spelled out, but here's the part that hints at it: Theres another part in one of the first Reek chapters that says something about "some other thing I had no use for"
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Sep 18, 2013 19:05
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Rutger Hauer just mentioned in a dutch chat show he apparently filmed a few days in Bukarest for GoT recently , I can't remember if this was this known already? Any ideas on the role he'll play? The kindly old man in Arya\s storyline perhaps?
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Sep 18, 2013 19:13
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hobbesmaster posted:Theres another part in one of the first Reek chapters that says something about "some other thing I had no use for" I know. But he tried to say his theory was just as ambiguous as the theory that Theon was castrated. That single passage implied the castration better than everything else. I was trying to show that while the castration is ambiguous it is strongly implied (which that passage is/does about the castration) In what he quoted, Theon actually says the exact opposite of what Blind Melon is trying to prove. There's no ambiguity there. Theon says he's not a kinslayer and remembers bedding the miller's wife. I'm not trying to disprove or prove the castration. I'm trying to show Blind Melon how far he's stretching to make this theory of Theon being a kinslayer stick and pointing out that it has absolutely no literary importance to the story so it's a pretty pointless theory. chellesandcheese fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Sep 18, 2013 |
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Sep 18, 2013 19:14
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chellesandcheese posted:it's a pretty pointless theory. But pointless theories are all we have to tide us over until TWoW!
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Sep 18, 2013 19:15
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Theon would also have to be 11 or 12 when he supposedly fathered a miller's son old enough to pass for Bran.
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Sep 18, 2013 19:15
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rypakal posted:Theon would also have to be 11 or 12 when he supposedly fathered a miller's son old enough to pass for Bran. Poor Rickon, no-one remembers him. 
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Sep 18, 2013 19:21
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Theon being manipulated by Ramsay to earn the ire of the Old Gods is a pretty strong running theme. Theon was forced to lie in front of the heart tree during "Arya's" wedding, something that faithful northerners find abhorant. Ramsay is the one who got Theon to kill his child, and now is the one punishing him for his misdeeds. If kinslaying isn't important, then why is it mentioned so much? If the gods and their opinions don't matter, then why have they been written into the story at all? We have been told repeatedly that no one is as cursed in the eyes of man and gods as the kinslayer, why is this in the story if there isn't some supernatural element to it? And after all that, we suddenly have three characters out of the blue call Theon a kinslayer. The hooded man, Rowan, and Crowfood Umber. The hooded man is a mystery, Rowan got her info from Abel and there are hints that Mance has worked with the Umbers (his skill with a greatsword, being known as "The Mance" to some). The Umbers are working closely with the Manderlys per Rob's orders, providing them with lumber to build their fleet. Wex, the only living witness to Theon's crime (besides Ramsay) passed through Umber lands and wound up in White Harbor. The Umbers have enough reason to believe that the Stark boys aren't dead between Manderly, Wex, and the old man Bran and Co encounter on their way to the wall. Note that Rowan does not care that the Stark boys were no kin to Theon. It is not relevent to her accusation. chellesandcheese posted:In what you quoted, Theon specifically says, "but I am no kinslayer". He's in denial. He has been accused of killing his kin. He killed the child of a woman that he was loving around the time she became pregnant, and he does not even consider the possibility that he could have killed his child. In fact, he goes through great lengths to avoid the thought, and is obviously troubled whenever the accusation comes up. He is in denial. Like you. quote:So are you saying that a character saying the exact opposite of what you're trying to prove is ambiguous now? Serious question: Why do you think this is relevant? quote:Theories like R+L=J are widely believed and thought of as true because if they are true, they would have a huge impact on the story. R+L=J is widely believed because it was telegraphed so obviously that it could have not been more blatant without being explicitly spelled out. I'm not even convinced that anyone in Westeros would actually care that Jon was the true heir to the Targarion throne other than to add "assassinate this dude" to their to do lists.
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Sep 18, 2013 19:25
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Blind Melon posted:R+L=J is widely believed because it was telegraphed so obviously that it could have not been more blatant without being explicitly spelled out. I'm not even convinced that anyone in Westeros would actually care that Jon was the true heir to the Targarion throne other than to add "assassinate this dude" to their to do lists. Howland Reed is going to give one hell of a eulogy for him though... "Jon Stark, heir to the Targaryen throne. Oh yeah did I mention that King Robb made him the Lord of Winterfell and his parents were actually Lyanna and Rhaegar? Anyways..."
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Sep 18, 2013 19:50
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I really like this theory that Theon killed his own children. Mind you, in the same way I like the Longclaw = Dark Sister theory: incredibly flimsy but so fitting I want them to be true.
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Sep 18, 2013 20:01
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Blind Melon posted:Theon being manipulated by Ramsay to earn the ire of the Old Gods is a pretty strong running theme. Theon was forced to lie in front of the heart tree during "Arya's" wedding, something that faithful northerners find abhorant. Ramsay is the one who got Theon to kill his child, and now is the one punishing him for his misdeeds. First of all, let me just say that this is a slightly stronger argument for the theory that anything that you've posted before. This is why I asked what your argument for this theory was, thus far you've posted pretty much nothing but a lot of thin conjecture that just looked like you were looking for anything to fit your theory. I still don't necessarily agree with it, but at least this is more clear than "Theon bedded the miller's wife, the husband was old, therefore Theon killed his own kid" Thank you. Now for the points you make, I think it's more important that Theon even feels guilty about lying in front of a heart tree. To me his arc has been less about Ramsay getting him to piss off the gods, and more about Theon realizing that he betrayed his true family. They may not have been his blood, but the Starks were his family (aside from Catelyn, big surprise there). He's continually showing his affinity for the Starks and their gods without even realizing it consciously. As a Greyjoy he shouldn't have cared about the Old Gods and he shouldn't have cared about Ned's determination to carry out his own death sentences. He needs to truly come to terms with the fact that no one but his sister and the Starks cared about him, and he betrayed the Starks in the worst way possible. I agree that he is in denial, but he's in denial that what he did to the Starks. When people call him a kinslayer, they're trying to drive that point home...that he was raised among them as their brother and he "killed" them. That's why his denial is so important. He needs to truly admit what he did...likely in front of a heart tree. I think it's been quite obviously hinted at that many of the gods in the books have real powers, the Old Gods being one of them. The problem with your theory about how he's been driven to piss off the Old Gods by Ramsay, is that we know that the Old Gods are basically just Bloodraven and Bran warging into weirwoods. They have power, obviously, but I don't think there's some invisible all seeing beings in those trees other than the greenseers. I think it's much more likely that as primitive people, the First Men saw the power in the trees and claimed they were gods for lack of a better explanation and understanding. This is important because Bran has likely contacted Theon through the weirwoods and the ravens and seems to be trying to get Theon to remember who he really is. What this means is that Bran has the power to forgive/condemn Theon. This could go either way as far as him living or dying, but I think the important part is him admitting who he really is and what he's done. That's what Bran is going to care about. Bran won't have any way of knowing that the miller's boy was actually Theon's son unless there was a confession in front of a heart tree that he can see. The Umbers, who if I remember right, are way farther north than where this miller was located wouldn't have any inside knowledge as to bastards that Theon may have fathered either. The miller was very close to Winterfell, so if someone knew that, it would have been someone from Winterfell. And while the Umbers probably know that Bran & Rickon are still alive, they're playing a game. If they stop pretending that Bran & Rickon are dead, others will start hunting for them and they won't all be friends of the Starks. At this point, until Davos finds Rickon and bring him back as proof of who he is, it's better that they all feign outrage at Theon for being a kinslayer. They're also pissed off because Theon stabbed their king in the back, when he was raised as his brother...so they're twisting the knife of guilt into Theon. Blind Melon posted:Serious question: Why do you think this is relevant? It's relevant because you specifically called something ambiguous and then quoted something to support it that wasn't really ambiguous by itself. I can see how you may think that with the rest of your argument, but out of context it was wrong. And I'm killing time at work while debating this with you, so I called you on it.  TLDR: I think we disagree on the point of Theon's arc and I feel that while your theory is possible, it's just too weak for me to buy into. I don't really see what it would add to the story because he's a random bastard that we don't care about vs. betraying the Starks, whom almost everyone loves.
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Sep 18, 2013 20:34
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chellesandcheese posted:The problem with your theory about how he's been driven to piss off the Old Gods by Ramsay, is that we know that the Old Gods are basically just Bloodraven and Bran warging into weirwoods. The Old Gods predate Bloodraven and Bran by a long shot. There is plenty about the gods, Old and otherwise, that have been hinted at and that we have not been made privy to. For example, the magical book that Roose Bolton burns at Harrenhall, or why he deliberately set himself up to personally kill his king. Knowing the power of kingsblood this is a touch suspicious, but no more. I don't think that Bran being a greenseer is the end of explanations about the gods, but rather the beginning. We really haven't begun to explore the gods and their motivations in this story. E: chellesandcheese posted:When people call him a kinslayer, they're trying to drive that point home...that he was raised among them as their brother and he "killed" them. I get that this is a legitimate interpretation, but this really doesn't satisfy me. Why is Rowan so dismissive of Theon's counterargument if she is trying to drive home that he killed those who were like brothers to him. Why does she say "Starks boys were never brothers to you, aye. We know."? To me this comes across as her not caring about his point, dismissing it because it has nothing to do with her accusation. It really doesn't read to me like she is trying to make some point about Bran and Rikkon being his spiritual brothers because she agreed with him and dropped the subject. Then the very next thing he thinks about is the miller's boys. Here's the exchange: "“I have done terrible things ... betrayed my own, turned my cloak, ordered the death of men who trusted me ... but I am no kinslayer.” “Stark’s boys were never brothers to you, aye. We know.” That was true, but it was not what Theon had meant. They were not my blood, but even so, I never harmed them. The two we killed were just some miller’s sons. Theon did not want to think about their mother. He had known the miller’s wife for years, had even bedded her. Big heavy breasts with wide dark nipples, a sweet mouth, a merry laugh. Joys that I will never taste again." It can easily be read as Theon denying the accusation that he was a kinslayer because of the miller's boys. He didn't mean to make the argument that the Starks weren't his kin, Rowan assumed that was his counter. The miller's boys were not his blood, so he's not a kinslayer. And anyways, he didn't personally do the deed so Theon never actually harmed them. They were just some miller's sons, not Theon's, denying for the second time in one chain of thought that they could have been his. Painful thoughts about bedding their mother. Kinslayer and he knows it. /E quote:This could go either way as far as him living or dying, but I think the important part is him admitting who he really is and what he's done. That's what Bran is going to care about. Wether or not the child was actually Theon's, and short of the paternity test that will never happen literally nobody in the books will ever be sure, the fact remains that Theon was willing to kill his bastard child for the ruse. Wether or not it was actually his sperm that created the child is not necessarily important. He is still a kinslayer. He was willing to, and did, kill someone who could have been his child. This is something that Theon has been hard at work ignoring, and I completely agree with you that he needs to admit what he has really done. quote:And while the Umbers probably know that Bran & Rickon are still alive, they're playing a game. If they stop pretending that Bran & Rickon are dead, others will start hunting for them and they won't all be friends of the Starks. That part doesn't actually matter though. Bran and Rikkon were not actually Theon's kin, which is why none of the other northerners accuse Theon of being a kinslayer, and why Rowan contemptously dismisses Theon's argument that Bran and Rikkon weren't his kin. Crowfood Umber calling Theon a kinslayer makes no sense at all unless he sincerely believes Theon is a kinslayer and hates him for it. If all he knew was what was common knowledge, (and I agree he is playing a game), then it makes far more sense for him not to make the accusation and just rely on what is known to condem Theon. quote:It's relevant because you specifically called something ambiguous and then quoted something to support it that wasn't really ambiguous by itself. I can see how you may think that with the rest of your argument, but out of context it was wrong. And I'm killing time at work while debating this with you, so I called you on it. Nobody understands me unless I effortpost. quote:TLDR: I think we disagree on the point of Theon's arc and I feel that while your theory is possible, it's just too weak for me to buy into. I don't really see what it would add to the story because he's a random bastard that we don't care about vs. betraying the Starks, whom almost everyone loves. We are taliking about the author who included Frey pies. Funny thing is, I don't actually think we disagree on Theon's arc. chellesandcheese posted:To me his arc has been less about Ramsay getting him to piss off the gods, and more about Theon realizing that he betrayed his true family.. I know you didn't mean this like I'm taking it, but this really made me laugh. NihilCredo posted:I really like this theory that Theon killed his own children. Mind you, in the same way I like the Longclaw = Dark Sister theory: incredibly flimsy but so fitting I want them to be true. Child. Theon killed his child. Theon is too old to be the father of the older miller's child, but he fits the timing for the younger. Blind Melon fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Sep 18, 2013 |
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Sep 18, 2013 21:15
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Train Surgeon posted:Rutger Hauer just mentioned in a dutch chat show he apparently filmed a few days in Bukarest for GoT recently , I can't remember if this was this known already? I have no idea but this news makes me really, really happy. Hauer deserves much better than where his career has been.
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Sep 18, 2013 21:27
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tonberrytoby posted:The Rumor that John Snow is a secret Tygerrian has the same Problem, even more so. chellesandcheese posted:The problem with your theory about how he's been driven to piss off the Old Gods by Ramsay, is that we know that the Old Gods are basically just Bloodraven and Bran warging into weirwoods. They have power, obviously, but I don't think there's some invisible all seeing beings in those trees other than the greenseers.
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Sep 18, 2013 21:54
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Hey be nice. Dude's being friendly enough.
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Sep 18, 2013 21:55
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Did that come off mean? It wasn't meant to be mean to chelles or the new guy.
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Sep 18, 2013 21:57
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Train Surgeon posted:Rutger Hauer just mentioned in a dutch chat show he apparently filmed a few days in Bukarest for GoT recently , I can't remember if this was this known already? I'd like to know more about this, but everything I search returns results for True Blood. I don't know how people watch that poo poo.
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Sep 18, 2013 22:08
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CapnAndy posted:Dude, I hate to break it to you, but Jon Snow is 100% undoubtably a Secret Targ. He's Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, it's not even up for debate any more. I think the best ending for this subplot would be if nobody in Westeross ever finds out.
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Sep 18, 2013 22:08
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Ugh everything makes so much more sense now that I know Targ is shorthand for Targaryen and not some sort of animal
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Sep 18, 2013 22:09
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tonberrytoby posted:Oh, I totally agree. I just think that I can't imagine the official reveal not being a terrible asspull. The only hint to somebody who might know are some totally forgettable scenes with that reed guy, that even got left out from the TV-series. The tower of joy scene is certainly not 'totally forgettable', it got left out from the TV-series because the TV-series doesn't contain any dream sequences or flashbacks, not because it's not important. Howland Reed is mentioned relatively quite often, he was also instrumental to Rhaegar and Lyanna hooking up in the first place.
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Sep 18, 2013 22:13
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I'm still holding out hope that they'll pad Bran's screentime by giving him a bunch of flashbacks once he starts greenseeing. Of course, I've held out hope for every other way they could start laying in the R+L foreshadowing and had my hopes cruelly dashed each time, so it's not likely. I agree that their failure to do so looks like it's going to bite them in the rear end bigtime eventually -- that poo poo will be important before the story's over, I will bet any amount of money on that. However, David & Dan convinced GRRM they were the right men for the job in part because they knew who Jon Snow's parents were and they have an outline for the rest of the series, so they know full well that it's a thing and it'll eventually come up. There's got to be a plan. God knows what, but it ain't like they haven't seen this coming since pre-production.
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Sep 18, 2013 22:18
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emanresu tnuocca posted:The tower of joy scene is certainly not 'totally forgettable', it got left out from the TV-series because the TV-series doesn't contain any dream sequences or flashbacks, not because it's not important. Howland Reed is mentioned relatively quite often, he was also instrumental to Rhaegar and Lyanna hooking up in the first place. Doesn't the TV series have several dream sequences with bran and the 3-eyed crow?
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Sep 18, 2013 22:21
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Baldbeard posted:Doesn't the TV series have several dream sequences with bran and the 3-eyed crow? Yes, but they're usually straightforward "Here's Bran at Winterfell chasing a crow with 3 eyes", not stuff like Tower of Joy or even Bran's dreams in the book with the talking crow.
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Sep 18, 2013 22:24
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Train Surgeon posted:Rutger Hauer just mentioned in a dutch chat show he apparently filmed a few days in Bukarest for GoT recently , I can't remember if this was this known already? What is the show, I could translate what he said.
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Sep 18, 2013 22:26
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CapnAndy posted:Dude, I hate to break it to you, but Jon Snow is 100% undoubtably a Secret Targ. He's Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, it's not even up for debate any more. In the respect that I think they're trying to punish Theon for being a kinslayer because the gods "curse" that behavior. I realize that all the greenseers are in the trees and I think it's likely that by being able to jump around and see things, they probably did use their power in the past to punish things like kinslaying. However, I think Bran and Bloodraven are the only two who are still conscious and I'm pretty sure it's been shown that if there isn't a weirwood tree, they can't know about it. So I don't see how some "all-seeing being" could be punishing Theon for being an actual kinslayer. Unless he screwed her in the godswood and then she confessed that the child was really his in front of a heart tree, I don't see how Bran/Bloodraven could know this and therefore be trying to punish it. In that respect, I don't think there isn't an "all-knowing being" that oversees the whole religion. Blind Melon posted:I get that this is a legitimate interpretation, but this really doesn't satisfy me. Why is Rowan so dismissive of Theon's counterargument if she is trying to drive home that he killed those who were like brothers to him. Why does she say "Starks boys were never brothers to you, aye. We know."? To me this comes across as her not caring about his point, dismissing it because it has nothing to do with her accusation. It really doesn't read to me like she is trying to make some point about Bran and Rikkon being his spiritual brothers because she agreed with him and dropped the subject. This can easily be explained by the much simpler explanation of not wanting to waste time arguing with someone in denial. He's been accused of being a kinslayer before, and he has the same response every single time. It's not hard to know what excuse he's going to give...and it's incredibly easy to dismiss those excuses when you realize he's still making the same excuses and missing the point of being called a kinslayer. This really works for either theory and I don't think it proves your interpretation any more than mine. Blind Melon posted:Wether or not the child was actually Theon's, and short of the paternity test that will never happen literally nobody in the books will ever be sure, the fact remains that Theon was willing to kill his bastard child for the ruse. Wether or not it was actually his sperm that created the child is not necessarily important. He is still a kinslayer. He was willing to, and did, kill someone who could have been his child. This is something that Theon has been hard at work ignoring, and I completely agree with you that he needs to admit what he has really done. But see this is where I find the entire theory lacking. It adds nothing to his arc. No one will ever know if it's really his kid and he's already done such a terrible thing by betraying the Starks, he doesn't need to be in denial about anything else. Piling on the fact that he killed his supposed bastard doesn't improve the story because if you didn't already hate Theon for betraying Robb, taking Winterfell, pretending to kill Bran & Rickon, and killing many of the people who grew up caring for him at Winterfell, then making the miller's son Theon's bastard isn't going to make you dislike him more. We care about the Starks because we've seen them and we've been close to them. No one cares about the miller's son other than the fact that Theon killed an innocent child. That added "twist" isn't adding anything important. In addition your theory is all based on a timeline that you're making up. We have no way of knowing when Theon slept with the miller's wife. It could have been after both children were born. It could have been at a time when there's absolutely no way that either child was his. Just admitting to sleeping with someone doesn't guarantee that they father a child. And unless the timeline links up, killing the son of some woman you bedded once doesn't automatically make you a kinslayer. But to the Stark's biggest supporters (The Umbers) who were close to Robb and saw how Robb thought of Theon? Betraying him and "killing" his brothers could easily make you a kinslayer in their eyes.
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Sep 18, 2013 22:36
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Conquistador posted:Ugh everything makes so much more sense now that I know Targ is shorthand for Targaryen and not some sort of animal Jon Snow is a secret Klingon razorhog.
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Sep 18, 2013 22:40
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emanresu tnuocca posted:The tower of joy scene is certainly not 'totally forgettable', it got left out from the TV-series because the TV-series doesn't contain any dream sequences or flashbacks, not because it's not important. Howland Reed is mentioned relatively quite often, he was also instrumental to Rhaegar and Lyanna hooking up in the first place.
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Sep 18, 2013 22:40
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Jon Snow is a secret Klingon razorhog. Haha, yeah pretty much I out nerded the GoT thread for a second
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Sep 18, 2013 22:42
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NihilCredo posted:Longclaw = Dark Sister theory: Can you elaborate? Haven't come across this one yet.
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Sep 18, 2013 22:43
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tonberrytoby posted:I still have trouble remembering it, even after you guys reminded me that it exists. So it fulfills my definition of forgettable. That's quite a subjective definition. "Promise me, Ned." is one of the biggest mysteries and one of the most memorable quotes from AGOT, Ned facing legendary figures such as Arthur "The Sword Of The Morning" Dayne and Gerold "The White Bull" Hightower is rather epic.
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Sep 18, 2013 22:45
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Train Surgeon posted:Rutger Hauer just mentioned in a dutch chat show he apparently filmed a few days in Bukarest for GoT recently , I can't remember if this was this known already? Got a link where he says he's in GoT? As far as I can tell, that hasn't been reported anywhere at this point. Meanwhile, a fan snapped this photo of Sansa and Dontos:  Just in case anyone needed any more reassurance that the show would be delving into that particular subplot.
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Sep 18, 2013 23:14
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Your Gay Uncle posted:Can you elaborate? Haven't come across this one yet. Basically Longclaw is a pretty elaborate sword for a poor minor house in The North so some people think it's the Targaryen sword Dark Sister. Backing up this theory is that the last known wielder of Dark Sister was Bloodraven, a Lord Commander of The Night's Watch who (may have) took the sword with him.
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Sep 18, 2013 23:17
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Ballz posted:Got a link where he says he's in GoT? As far as I can tell, that hasn't been reported anywhere at this point. Sansa is half a head taller than Ser Dontos. 
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Sep 18, 2013 23:19
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WiC's twitter says the Hauer casting is a false alarm, and that there was confusion between Game of Thrones and "The Scorpion King: The Lost Throne."
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Sep 18, 2013 23:38
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This is funnier to me when I pretend that the actor also made the same mistake
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Sep 18, 2013 23:43
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chellesandcheese posted:Stuff about the Old Gods There's also the giant, bizarre, unmoving blizzard of hate that's centered directly on Winterfell and starts the second Roose marries Fake Arya, which if that's a greenseer power, Bloodraven's been really holding out on Bran. That sort of godly wrath speaks strongly to something/someone with a bit more juice than just looking through trees. All that said, I actually agree with you -- the Old Gods aren't punishing Theon for being a kinslayer, that's dumb.
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Sep 18, 2013 23:48
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Am I lame for thinking Theon's life just sucks and theres no mysticism behind that?
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Sep 18, 2013 23:49
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If Theon was any real world person, given his abysmal luck and inability to be a remotely likeable person, there's only one person he could possibly be. http://i.imgur.com/0CgnBYv.jpg
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Sep 18, 2013 23:55
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