|
Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:If Linux's default API works like DirectInput's, it won't be able to detect both triggers being pulled at the same time (they're on the same axis and thus would cancel each other out). quote:I'm not familiar enough with Linux to really know much about SDL2, but it still all sounds like it could benefit from there being one true controller and one true API to control that like what XInput brought. it brought a degree of certainty that any decently designed game would just work with your 360 controller, zero hassle, zero configuration required. if SDL2 can provide that, then good.
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 20:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 23:23 |
|
|
bigmandan posted:While dual booting is definitely an option, especially for testing, I don't think that would be an ideal solution for regular use. Why bother when you can already have Steam on windows/mac? If Valve is accurate about there being a big FPS boost possible for most Linux ports, then I can easily see SteamOS be the first OS you want to game on and Windows being something you grudgingly go back to to play games that aren't compatible (if you don't want to/can't stream).
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 20:41
|
|
|
mjau posted:Yeah, that's exactly what it is, or at least what it's aiming to be. It does require that the controller model is known by SDL so that it can be mapped, but if it's recognized, the API basically makes everything look like a XBox 360 controller to the games using it, no configuration needed. If you have a controller that's not recognized, you'll have to configure it, but I think Valve's planning on having a config submission process or something so that new controllers can easily be added. Then they'll automatically work for everyone else with that controller in the future. I would imagine that anything XInput compatible will just work since they all have the same button mapping, and these days I can't think of any PC controllers that aren't XInput compatible aside from the PS3, and possibly PS4, controllers, but it's easy enough to detect and remap them.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 20:42
|
|
|
Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:If Valve is accurate about there being a big FPS boost possible for most Linux ports, then I can easily see SteamOS be the first OS you want to game on and Windows being something you grudgingly go back to to play games that aren't compatible (if you don't want to/can't stream). I had not considered that, good point. Streaming over the LAN is pretty decent if both nodes are gigabit. I have done it before with other solutions for business stuff and has worked pretty well. When both devices are on gigabit, input and V/A latency is pretty low (<=5ms).
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 20:45
|
|
|
Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:
http://www.google.com/patents/US20110105231
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 20:50
|
|
|
Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:If Valve is accurate about there being a big FPS boost possible for most Linux ports, then I can easily see SteamOS be the first OS you want to game on and Windows being something you grudgingly go back to to play games that aren't compatible (if you don't want to/can't stream). The boost isn't so much from Linux, but from ditching the overhead of the D3D layer between the application and the driver. The modern OpenGL API with the direct state access extensions is basically just a thin shim at the driver level between an application and the hardware as opposed to D3D which adds a whole other layer on top of it. Even under Windows Valve saw gains from ditching D3D.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 20:50
|
|
|
I agree that this shouldn't be seen as Valve stepping into the console market. At this point they probably just see consoles as walled garden PCs that happen to be in the living room. Considering their history and all the talks Gabe has done on the subject I think Valve wants to create an alternative to gaming consoles that is open. The main advantages from this come from what other companies can do with such a platform which is why I think some people are having trouble seeing where the market is for this. Evil Canadian posted:Well that's kinda the thing, if you actually do wanna play Call of Duty on it, you won't have a choice but to stream it. The fact that the majority of games are gated behind streaming totally ruins any hype I could have for this. The_Franz posted:I would imagine that there would be some kind of minimum specs for a Steambox to avoid this type of scenario. As for Linux, I dont' see it being a huge problem. Most older titles can run through WINE and newer titles will likely start targeting the platform directly. A lot of middleware already has a POSIX+OpenGL backend and a lot of developers are starting to realize that being locked exclusively into the Microsoft ecosystem might not be a good idea in the long run given their recent decisions.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 20:53
|
|
|
I expect Friday's announcement to be more on the developer side. Linux support from their hardware partners/vendors (AMD and Nvidia are already in this, Razer's clearly watching Steam (they've made a couple Fbook posts/tweets about these announcements), and Logitech is probably there as well) as well as Source 2 with only OpenGL, linux tools, and easier to work with and port to Linux/Mac. I don't care much for SteamOS. They seem to want to encourage Linux vs. Windows because Microsoft is terrible and Linux is faster. That's good and the center of Friday's announcement is my guess. They want some sort of consumer-friendly, console market solution. That's good too and the point of today's announcement. But why combine them right away into this SteamOS/box mess on Monday? There's not enough Linux support yet. The box being primarily Linux means they NEED the streaming option to fill out the library. It's like they had an idea of a Linux box in 5 years where all PC gaming is available or even centered on Linux and Steam is available everywhere in your house, whether it's your PC, Steambox, craptop, etc. Then they announced that box before building out any of the infrastructure for it. I mean, go look at the games that are controller-supported and on Linux. A $50-100 streaming-only box is cool though. Also, I expect Valve to have very strong control over any official Steambox branded solution. They're not going to just let any vendor throw together a $1000 PC and call it a Steambox. There'll be Steambox-certified parts with full Linux support if you want to build your own I'm sure. koolkal fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Sep 25, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 20:53
|
|
|
The_Franz posted:The boost isn't so much from Linux, but from ditching the overhead of the D3D layer between the application and the driver. The modern OpenGL API with the direct state access extensions is basically just a thin shim at the driver level between an application and the hardware as opposed to D3D which adds a whole other layer on top of it. Even under Windows Valve saw gains from ditching D3D. But they still cited further gains from their actual Linux ports. They will at least be pushing that side of things in order to get the hardcore "what's a tv?" pc gamer to switch over. bigmandan posted:I had not considered that, good point. Out of personal curiosity, I wonder how things will run over a 300mbit wireless n network. It would probably be better with dual band but I cheaped out 
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 20:54
|
|
|
Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:But they still cited further gains from their actual Linux ports. They will at least be pushing that side of things in order to get the hardcore "what's a tv?" pc gamer to switch over. I had not used it with wireless so i'm not sure.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 21:04
|
|
|
CampingCarl posted:How can they enforce minimum specs when you can build your own box and there will most likely be various levels of hardware running the same OS? Maybe when we see what hardware manufactures do they will have worked something out but they are losing the simplicity of a game just saying it runs on whatever platform. Obviously you can't do anything about people building their own machine, but those people aren't going sit around yelling "WHY GAEM NO RUN  ?" when something goes wrong.They can enforce minimum specs on pre-built boxes that bear the Steam logo so that you don't have hardware makers releasing Atom powered systems that don't run anything.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 21:05
|
|
|
It's going to be sweet seeing hacked PS4's running Steam OS as a cheap hardware alternative.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 21:13
|
|
|
Palpek posted:It's going to be sweet seeing hacked PS4's running Steam OS as a cheap hardware alternative. That's... genius.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 21:20
|
|
|
koolkal posted:That's... genius. Once Sony patched out the OtherOS functionality, did anyone ever actually crack the PS3 to the extent that another OS could be installed on it?
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 21:28
|
|
|
CampingCarl posted:
Valve will probably give it a SteamOS certification along with a number. Like maybe they have 1 - 5 levels. #1 is suitable for streaming games from another PC, has low specs, and can do music/netflix/whatever. 5 would be some ridiculous overlocked monstrosity that will run any game currently out with AA, etc. I mean, it really wouldn't be that hard to give a certification level as well as a short explanation of what its suitable for doing. Additionally, games could be given the same number. If a game can be run on hardware with a SteamOS rating of 3 or more, they could give it a 3 and you'd know that a 3 or above can play this game in a reasonable manner.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 21:30
|
|
|
koolkal posted:A $50-100 streaming-only box is cool though. Steambox-certified parts would be loving cool when it comes to building a simple gaming PC.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 21:31
|
|
|
Eonwe posted:Valve will probably give it a SteamOS certification along with a number. Like maybe they have 1 - 5 levels. #1 is suitable for streaming games from another PC, has low specs, and can do music/netflix/whatever. 5 would be some ridiculous overlocked monstrosity that will run any game currently out with AA, etc. The problem becomes, what is a 5 this year is a 3 a couple of years from now. Maybe it could be Level 5-2014 or Level 5 Gen 1? This kind of has the potential to reach Android levels of fragmentation. Let's hope they at least enforce some minimum standards and try to keep manufacturers from adding their own bullshit to the OS so it avoids the pitfalls of Android with devs having to test their poo poo on 600 different devices with 7 different versions of Android and 4 different manufacturer skins on top of that plus rooted versions and oh Jesus. Not sure if it's possible, but what I would do were I them would be to have minimum specs with each version of the OS and prevent older machines from updating somehow. So that way a game or app can say "Requires SteamOS version 1.3 and above" or whatever. Similar to the way Android does it now, but with less bullshit. Imagined fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Sep 25, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 21:34
|
|
|
I'll be honest, this all has shades of 3DO about it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 21:39
|
|
|
Eonwe posted:Valve will probably give it a SteamOS certification along with a number. Like maybe they have 1 - 5 levels. #1 is suitable for streaming games from another PC, has low specs, and can do music/netflix/whatever. 5 would be some ridiculous overlocked monstrosity that will run any game currently out with AA, etc. Nice side benefit to this is that it gives smaller devs a nice target spec to shoot for. Right now indies develop their games on their personal computer, give it to a handful of friends to test, and then just throw up their arms and put down whatever ridiculous minimum specification exists in their tiny sample size. Valve collects lots of hardware statistics for this exact purpose but its not much help to a dev with no budget to build test rigs. With Steam Machine they can buy a prebuilt box that is guaranteed to be representative of some percentage of Steam users and put out much more useful minimum specs as a result. So in other words if you look at this thread and ask "what's the point of this I already have a computer" then shut your loving mouth. This can only ever have a positive impact on PC gaming.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 21:45
|
|
|
I wonder what kind of compression they will be using to stream the video. Raw 16 bit 1080p@24fps would be around 100 MiB/s and would leave just enough room for audio and input on a gigabit network. Raw 24 bit 1080p@60fps is around 378 MiB/s and not possible on gigabit. If they have a fast enough on the fly compression for video that introduces very little latency I can see 1080p@60fps being possible otherwise the streaming would have to be done at a lower resolution/fps/color depth.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 21:49
|
|
|
Imagined posted:The problem becomes, what is a 5 this year is a 3 a couple of years from now. Maybe it could be Level 5-2014 or Level 5 Gen 1? This kind of has the potential to reach Android levels of fragmentation. Let's hope they at least enforce some minimum standards and try to keep manufacturers from adding their own bullshit to the OS so it avoids the pitfalls of Android with devs having to test their poo poo on 600 different devices with 7 different versions of Android and 4 different manufacturer skins on top of that plus rooted versions and oh Jesus. It could be done in the simple way of just increasing the number. So the first set comes out on a scale of 1-5 or 1-10, then as newer games are released, the scale increases to 1-15 etc. Then hardware manufacturers can release 'kits' of computer parts for you to upgrade your system to the newest number, basically simplifying the upgrade process for non-techies and reducing the need for a new generation of systems as long as the hardware is compatible.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 22:03
|
|
|
CampingCarl posted:I agree that this shouldn't be seen as Valve stepping into the console market. At this point they probably just see consoles as walled garden PCs that happen to be in the living room. Considering their history and all the talks Gabe has done on the subject I think Valve wants to create an alternative to gaming consoles that is open. The main advantages from this come from what other companies can do with such a platform which is why I think some people are having trouble seeing where the market is for this. This is the vibe I've been getting. The SteamOS page mentions how they already have AAA titles coming natively to SteamOS next year. The idea isn't to get console users to buy a Steam Machine, but to get companies to develop for SteamOS. I think Valve started developing for Linux to iron out issues for other developers down the line. He even mentions towards the end of that video how they're co-developing a Linux debugger because other developers asked for one. They're trying to funnel companies away from Windows and towards this machine that can act as both a PC and a console. If every company is making software for a Steam Machine, well then the company's customers are going to buy a Steam Machine.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 22:08
|
|
|
Well, no Windows means no DirectX. No DX means OpenGL. OpenGL means things will be that much closer to OSX compatibility. So yay in a roundabout way for us Mac nerds I guess.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 22:12
|
|
|
Marty Crane posted:This is the vibe I've been getting. The SteamOS page mentions how they already have AAA titles coming natively to SteamOS next year. The idea isn't to get console users to buy a Steam Machine, but to get companies to develop for SteamOS. I think Valve started developing for Linux to iron out issues for other developers down the line. He even mentions towards the end of that video how they're co-developing a Linux debugger because other developers asked for one. They're trying to funnel companies away from Windows and towards this machine that can act as both a PC and a console. If every company is making software for a Steam Machine, well then the company's customers are going to buy a Steam Machine. If SteamOS picks up steam  , I can see users hybridizing Ubuntu with packages from SteamOS to have a full OS with gaming performance.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 22:15
|
|
|
koolkal posted:I expect Friday's announcement to be more on the developer side. Linux support from their hardware partners/vendors (AMD and Nvidia are already in this, Razer's clearly watching Steam (they've made a couple Fbook posts/tweets about these announcements), and Logitech is probably there as well) as well as Source 2 with only OpenGL, linux tools, and easier to work with and port to Linux/Mac. koolkal posted:Also, I expect Valve to have very strong control over any official Steambox branded solution. They're not going to just let any vendor throw together a $1000 PC and call it a Steambox. There'll be Steambox-certified parts with full Linux support if you want to build your own I'm sure. That reminds me that in the main Steam thread people mentioned Nvidia and other companies were hinting at announcements for Linux soon. Does anyone have sources or the actual announcements yet? Lemon King posted:If SteamOS picks up steam CampingCarl fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Sep 25, 2013 |
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 22:16
|
|
|
AlternateAccount posted:Well, no Windows means no DirectX. No DX means OpenGL. OpenGL means things will be that much closer to OSX compatibility. So yay in a roundabout way for us Mac nerds I guess. Yeah, its no coincidence that the Mac and Linux versions of source released close to each other. The big hurdle has never been "its a different OS!", but rather since DX is Windows only it requires a whole new graphics API. Besides both using OpenGL, Mac and Linux are very similar on the backend, so porting between them is easier than between Windows and Mac or Windows and Linux.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 22:22
|
|
|
CampingCarl posted:That reminds me that in the main Steam thread people mentioned Nvidia and other companies were hinting at announcements for Linux soon. Does anyone have sources or the actual announcements yet? If there is any Linux annoucements coming soon, you can try the AMD Showcase that is going on right now. They been hyping hardware accelerated audio for over an hour...
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 22:23
|
|
|
CampingCarl posted:That reminds me that in the main Steam thread people mentioned Nvidia and other companies were hinting at announcements for Linux soon. Does anyone have sources or the actual announcements yet? I think this is the nVidia announcement that was posted in the Steam thread, and there was this tweet about AMD announcing something for Linux.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 22:30
|
|
|
Lemon King posted:If SteamOS picks up steam It's already going to be a full OS. They straight up say in today's announcement page that you'll be able to install whatever you want to it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 22:36
|
|
|
They more or less confirmed the controller in the SteamMachines web page anyway:quote:Am I going to be using a mouse and a keyboard in the living-room? quote:we have some more to say very soon on the topic of input. quote:input.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 22:43
|
|
|
Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:It's already going to be a full OS. They straight up say in today's announcement page that you'll be able to install whatever you want to it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 22:52
|
|
|
Sober posted:They more or less confirmed the controller in the SteamMachines web page anyway: Even if if SteamOS and Steam Machine fail, at least we might get a good standardized PC controller out of this. (I know the 360 pad pretty much fills this role already, but Microsoft won't make them forever so it will need a successor at some point anyway.)
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 22:54
|
|
|
A steam controller. Sounds great to me.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 23:02
|
|
|
CampingCarl posted:I think you are looking at it backwards. SteamOS IS the infrastructure that is needed for people to bother making games that you play in your living room and do not have to go through Microsoft, Sony, ect. No one is going to write a game that runs on linux just to have it not run on Xbox. Plus since Valve would probably not be doing this without the support of hardware manufacturers and game developers who have been mentioning working on linux stuff. What I mean by infrastructure is giving developers good tools to make Linux ports with controller support. Valve needs to make or support tools for the Linux developer community as a whole, outside of Steam. Most of what's available right now is small stuff built out by individual developers which you need to find and use as individual pieces. They could (and I think are) making a big push for larger companies to provide this support by spearheading it and working with their hardware vendors. SteamOS is really not all that impressive from a software standpoint. It's Steam's big picture mode combined with a Linux distribution from what they've revealed so far. Most of the features that they listed are part of Steam itself, available even if you don't use SteamOS. I'm actually curious as to the advantages of SteamOS vs. Steam for Linux. Also, they'll let 3rd parties build whatever they want, but if they have any sense they'll make sure that anything that has "Official Steambox(TM)-approved" on it is completely vetted by them. They're the ones with the biggest stake by far in making sure that official prebuilt solutions are perfect out of the box and easy for consumers to identify. Lastly, I think there'll definitely be an official Steam controller built by Razer or Logitech.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 23:23
|
|
|
koolkal posted:Lastly, I think there'll definitely be an official Steam controller built by Razer or Logitech. Why would they go with them when they've filed patents for their own controller? Also it might feature some of the biometric stuff they've been playing with.   Gabe Newell posted:I think you'll see controllers coming from us that use a lot of biometric data. Maybe the motion stuff is just failure of imagination on our part, but we're a lot more excited about biometrics as an input method. Motion just seems to be a way of [thinking] of your body as a set of communication channels. Your hands, and your wrist muscles, and your fingers are actually your highest bandwidth - so to trying to talk to a game with your arms is essentially saying "oh we're going to stop using Ethernet and go back to 300 baud dial-up." Maybe there are other ways to think of that. There's more engagement when you're using larger skeletal muscles, but whenever we go down [that path] we sort of come away unconvinced. Biometrics on the other hand is essentially adding more communication bandwidth between the game and the person playing it, especially in ways the player isn't necessarily conscious of. Biometrics gives us more visibility. Also, gaze tracking. We think gaze tracking is going to turn out to be super important.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 23:35
|
|
|
Supernorn posted:Quote from Gabe Newell What the hell is it about Valve? They always seem so transparent and forward-thinking with everything, and it's always so interesting to me. Even something as simple as Dota 2's blog post that announced how Valve was preparing for the launch seemed so straightforward that it sort of threw me back a little bit. The only comparison I have is when John Carmack gives his opinion on something: It's direct, it's bullshit-free, and it doesn't insult me. I'm not trying to elevate Valve on a pedestal or anything like that, but I really, really appreciate the way they tend to handle things.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 23:48
|
|
|
My take away from that quote is that the steam box is going to plug into my brain and I will control the game with my mind. About time the future got here. Now where's my flying car?
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2013 23:57
|
|
Supernorn posted:Why would they go with them when they've filed patents for their own controller? Also it might feature some of the biometric stuff they've been playing with. That controller is kind of odd-looking.
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2013 00:00
|
|
|
Supernorn posted:Why would they go with them when they've filed patents for their own controller? Also it might feature some of the biometric stuff they've been playing with. Because although they've come up with designs and patents, they have no manufacturing capability and will likely choose a partner to oversee the production of the device. It would make sense for Valve to choose someone like Mad Catz or Logitech to to produce the controller.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2013 00:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 23:23 |
|
|
SALT CURES HAM posted:That controller is kind of odd-looking. It's a 4 year old patent that's exclusively about the modular functionality of the device, the appearance and button layout is irrelevant.
|
|
#
?
Sep 26, 2013 00:02
|
|