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SALT CURES HAM posted:That controller is kind of odd-looking. It's a 360 controller with the right stick and face buttons swapped. It's just a patent, anyway. The important thing is the modular nature of it, the look of the controller doesn't mean anything.
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Sep 26, 2013 00:03
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cloudline posted:What the hell is it about Valve? They always seem so transparent and forward-thinking with everything, and it's always so interesting to me. The big thing separating them from their competition is that they're a privately owned company. Other companies watch their stock price wobble with every single statement made officially or otherwise, but Valve have no shareholders. It puts them in the nearly unique position of being powerful and influential, but largely free to say and do as they please. There's nothing to stop them taking risks and experimenting, either. This may turn out to be a double-edged sword someday if they really push hard in a direction that hurts the company, but it does let them try to set industry trends, rather than react to them.
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Sep 26, 2013 00:03
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I really hope they have an innovative solution for controllers. I would much prefer to play all my games on my tv from my couch, but when it comes to FPS games the lack of precision takes too much away from the experience. A full keyboard and mouse is overkill for a strictly gaming machine, I hope someone comes out with an elegant hand-held solution that matches the precision of a mouse.
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Sep 26, 2013 00:05
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FateFree posted:A full keyboard and mouse is overkill for a strictly gaming machine, I hope someone comes out with an elegant hand-held solution that matches the precision of a mouse. That's exactly what they're showing in this patent. Trackball for aiming, analogue stick for movement. Best of both worlds!
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Sep 26, 2013 00:06
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In the video that was linked earlier, Gabe Newell mentions the are working on a Linux debugger in addition to having staff working on SDL. This helps Linux as a gaming platform as a whole and not just SteamOS. I see SteamOS and the Steam Machines as a way to show that Valve is committed to the Linux as a gaming platform.
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Sep 26, 2013 00:09
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There was a company that sold modified 360 gamepads with a trackball: So that's one of possible solutions and if you could swap those inserts easily it would be even better.
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Sep 26, 2013 00:11
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Dominic White posted:That's exactly what they're showing in this patent. Trackball for aiming, analogue stick for movement. Best of both worlds!
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Sep 26, 2013 00:12
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There is mention of having touchpads instead of joysticks. That could be pretty incredible if executed correctly. Having dual touchpads with adjustable sensitivity would really change up FPS console gaming.
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Sep 26, 2013 00:16
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To me 2 touchpads sound really bad and I don't believe they'd consider it. No physical response from a controller where I'm smudging on 2 little surfaces? No, thanks.
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Sep 26, 2013 00:20
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koolkal posted:What I mean by infrastructure is giving developers good tools to make Linux ports with controller support. Valve needs to make or support tools for the Linux developer community as a whole, outside of Steam. Most of what's available right now is small stuff built out by individual developers which you need to find and use as individual pieces. They could (and I think are) making a big push for larger companies to provide this support by spearheading it and working with their hardware vendors. Dominic White posted:That's exactly what they're showing in this patent. Trackball for aiming, analogue stick for movement. Best of both worlds!
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Sep 26, 2013 00:34
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CampingCarl posted:That is fine for a lot of games but for some games I don't think a controller/trackball will work. I can't wait for the first RTS or FPS games where people with controllers get destroyed by people with a proper keyboard/mouse. For keyboards there might be more of those things that are basically just WASD and the surrounding keys but I don't know how they could do a couch friendly mouse. That quote from Gaben definitely sounds ahead of the curve to me and a far more viable path than the dead-end of motion control that Microsoft is pushing so hard on. If Valve or some other company can get gaze tracking to actually work in a cost-effective manner, that would probably be the breakthrough in getting past M+KB as the most intuitive interface for a whole host of genres.
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Sep 26, 2013 00:36
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There's also this thing: Yeah I know it's an overkill and well, just look at it - nobody would take it seriously or consider making it an official controller but the thing is that those attachable controller keyboards work surprisingly great (from my experience) and combined with a trackball it would be a functional solution. It would never fly in reality though.
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Sep 26, 2013 00:42
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CampingCarl posted:I think you are saying Valve should make an alternative to DirectX, OpenGL, ect.? They may be doing that but I don't think it has to be done before what is happening now. Why would they need to do that? OpenGL runs on everything.
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Sep 26, 2013 00:42
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CampingCarl posted:That is fine for a lot of games but for some games I don't think a controller/trackball will work. I can't wait for the first RTS or FPS games where people with controllers get destroyed by people with a proper keyboard/mouse. For keyboards there might be more of those things that are basically just WASD and the surrounding keys but I don't know how they could do a couch friendly mouse.
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Sep 26, 2013 00:47
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CampingCarl posted:I think you are saying Valve should make an alternative to DirectX, OpenGL, ect.? They may be doing that but I don't think it has to be done before what is happening now. I agree SteamOS itself is probably not going to be all that technically impressive aside from if they end up doing something with the API like that. They're definitely going with OpenGL. There's no reason for them to build anything brand-new. I meant more things along this line: bigmandan posted:In the video that was linked earlier, Gabe Newell mentions the are working on a Linux debugger in addition to having staff working on SDL. This helps Linux as a gaming platform as a whole and not just SteamOS. I see SteamOS and the Steam Machines as a way to show that Valve is committed to the Linux as a gaming platform. That debugger Gaben mentioned is an example of the type of support and tooling they can provide to make Linux development easier. SteamOS just seems like a consumer-friendly way of presenting it when realistically something like a debugger is far more useful for a developer to make a Linux port. I'm sure they're building a lot of stuff in the background, and I'm guessing they'll make their announcement on Friday about them, though. Also, do people really actually like touchpads and trackballs?? I find them absolutely terrible.
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Sep 26, 2013 00:47
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I don't think this is aimed at console gamers, not initially anyways. Out of the gate it's probably going to be more expensive than PS4 and Xbone, but both of those consoles lasted something like 6 years. Steam machines will continue to be be modular, with their parts getting cheaper over time. You'll eventually hit a point where steam machines run better than the other consoles and they'll be a decent living room solution. In 3 years when someone's xbone red rings they might just look to replace it with a steam machine. And in 6 years when Ps5 and Xbtwo launch you'll have a library of old games you can play, plus new games to play, without buying a new system (idk, maybe you'll have to upgrade parts). It's just like how steam seeded PC gaming distribution originally, I believe we'll see something similar happen. Of course they'll probably need to some incentive like half-life3, left4dead3, teamfortress3, etc. but when they do a lot of other developers will get on board I'm guessing. And if their new rumored steam engine is free to use, then who knows, maybe they get nailed with an anti-trust lawsuit.
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Sep 26, 2013 00:53
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koolkal posted:I expect Friday's announcement to be more on the developer side. Linux support from their hardware partners/vendors (AMD and Nvidia are already in this, Razer's clearly watching Steam (they've made a couple Fbook posts/tweets about these announcements), and Logitech is probably there as well) as well as Source 2 with only OpenGL, linux tools, and easier to work with and port to Linux/Mac. I really really hope this is the case. Valve should just be bending over backwards to get as many devs on board with this as fast as they can.
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Sep 26, 2013 00:57
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grrarg posted:Why wouldn't a thumb trackball work on a controller? I play all kinds of games with a Logitech M570. It is a lot more comfortable than a mouse for people with repetitive stress injuries and not a competitive disadvantage at all. Tres Burritos posted:I really really hope this is the case. Valve should just be bending over backwards to get as many devs on board with this as fast as they can.
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Sep 26, 2013 01:06
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CampingCarl posted:What kind of games do you use that with that it wouldn't be a competitive disadvantage? It may work fine for general public use so I wouldn't be shocked to see a trackball option or similar. However you won't find anyone using a trackball to play anything like Quake or Starcraft or Dota at a competitive level for good reason. That is kind of the genius of making it a fully-featured OS though right? I can play indie games on the couch and competitive DOTA players can run with a mouse and keyboard. If you want to play at a higher level put the box on a desk and connect it to a monitor, or the other way around.
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Sep 26, 2013 01:17
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Waterslide Industry Lobbyist posted:That is kind of the genius of making it a fully-featured OS though right? I can play indie games on the couch and competitive DOTA players can run with a mouse and keyboard. If you want to play at a higher level put the box on a desk and connect it to a monitor, or the other way around.
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Sep 26, 2013 01:37
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CampingCarl posted:I think you are saying Valve should make an alternative to DirectX, OpenGL, ect.? They may be doing that but I don't think it has to be done before what is happening now. I agree SteamOS itself is probably not going to be all that technically impressive aside from if they end up doing something with the API like that. What would be nice is an open-source, permissively-licensed XAudio type of library for Linux since there isn't much out there in the way of game audio libraries. OpenAL is the only one that springs to mind and it is kind of old and has a lot of drawbacks (you can't directly manipulate mix matrices for example). Everything else out there is either not geared towards games or is a closed commercial library that costs money like Miles or FMod.
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Sep 26, 2013 01:51
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CampingCarl posted:What kind of games do you use that with that it wouldn't be a competitive disadvantage? It may work fine for general public use so I wouldn't be shocked to see a trackball option or similar. However you won't find anyone using a trackball to play anything like Quake or Starcraft or Dota at a competitive level for good reason. There is definitely a period of adjustment when switching to a trackball. It took about me about two weeks of use for it to become natural. That is the biggest barrier to entry. Another barrier to pro players (other than the fact that most have probably never seriously tried using a trackball) is that the trackball market is small so there are not a lot of options for models with features like on-the-fly DPI controls and multiple buttons. Something like the modded 360 controller Palpek posted would work great.
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Sep 26, 2013 01:55
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For some reason it isn't registering my last badge (play a game in Big Picture Mode with a controller).
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Sep 26, 2013 02:09
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The Flying Milton posted:For some reason it isn't registering my last badge (play a game in Big Picture Mode with a controller). The method I followed was pretty much: 1. Plug Controller into PC. 2. Select "Big Picture" on steam with mouse. 3. Use Controller to cycle through menus and open up a game (I used the Godus Beta.) 4. Close game out, check to see if requirement is met.
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Sep 26, 2013 02:15
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For FPS games I've always wanted to try a mouse and analogue nunchuk combo. A one handed joystick/gamepad hybrid with accelerometer, triggers, analogue stick and a bunch of buttons. Would work well for most action games. If they create a modular input device with a robust api then it should be possible to build your own modules with arduino boards, like an advanced Makeymakey. The_Franz posted:What would be nice is an open-source, permissively-licensed XAudio type of library for Linux since there isn't much out there in the way of game audio libraries. OpenAL is the only one that springs to mind and it is kind of old and has a lot of drawbacks (you can't directly manipulate mix matrices for example). Everything else out there is either not geared towards games or is a closed commercial library that costs money like Miles or FMod. AMD just made a gigantic fuss about local game streaming and their new Audio engine and how it's both device and platform agnostic in their #GPU14 keynote earlier tonight. Nvidia has also had a similar thing in the works as part of their GRID GaaS project. Phase one is commercial servers that will be sold to big companies for remote cloud streaming of games, Phase two is a small "Home server" that allows local streaming with 1440p over Cat6 and 802.11ac while 720p-1080p only require 802.11n or better. I'd expect both to play a big part in defining SteamMachine standardisation.
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Sep 26, 2013 02:19
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Imagined posted:The problem becomes, what is a 5 this year is a 3 a couple of years from now. Maybe it could be Level 5-2014 or Level 5 Gen 1? This kind of has the potential to reach Android levels of fragmentation. Let's hope they at least enforce some minimum standards and try to keep manufacturers from adding their own bullshit to the OS so it avoids the pitfalls of Android with devs having to test their poo poo on 600 different devices with 7 different versions of Android and 4 different manufacturer skins on top of that plus rooted versions and oh Jesus. Why complicate so much? Apple sure as gently caress doesn't bother, as I discovered when trying to put Plants Vs. Zombies 2 on a first gen iPad. "Oh! You don't have a front mounted camera? gently caress off."
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Sep 26, 2013 02:57
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Samizdata posted:Why complicate so much? Apple sure as gently caress doesn't bother, as I discovered when trying to put Plants Vs. Zombies 2 on a first gen iPad. "Oh! You don't have a front mounted camera? gently caress off." You can limit apps in the iOS store by OS version, but not by device. Requiring the front mounted camera is a loophole they use to restrict older hardware that can't reasonably run an app from running it.
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Sep 26, 2013 03:19
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grrarg posted:Why wouldn't a thumb trackball work on a controller? I play all kinds of games with a Logitech M570. It is a lot more comfortable than a mouse for people with repetitive stress injuries and not a competitive disadvantage at all. I once picked up one of those early tablet things with a strain-gauge based ministick (similar IBM's Trackpoint nub mouse/clit mouse) as the pointing device and I thought it worked quite well. Nothing else about it really worked, but I got it essentially for free so whatever. 
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Sep 26, 2013 03:39
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Winks posted:You can limit apps in the iOS store by OS version, but not by device. Requiring the front mounted camera is a loophole they use to restrict older hardware that can't reasonably run an app from running it. That wasn't even CLOSE to the point I was trying to make, you know. It was goons cooking up elaborate classification schemes for SteamBoxes (although I do think the Boxes should be called Engines), when Apple just does things like "Well, you MUST have the latest iPad or you just don't count. gently caress off, poor person!" I was snarking on the Apple philosophy of "If you want current goodies, you need to keep buying our crap since we obsolete it regularly." Yes, I AM bitter as only a PowerPC Mac owner can be. Besides, most of their upgrades aren't really upgrades, just bits of locked down shininess.
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Sep 26, 2013 04:07
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grrarg posted:Pretty much every genre, and who cares what MLG pro-gamers use? Your initial post said you didn't think a trackball would work. It works fine for general use and isn't a competitive disadvantage against average players. I would get destroyed by pro Starcraft or Dota players no matter which input device I used.
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Sep 26, 2013 04:09
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Samizdata posted:That wasn't even CLOSE to the point I was trying to make, you know. What...? Things like using the 'camera loophole' are put in by developers to restrict older devices from trying to run a game that they cannot run. Fact remains that Steam's going to have to do something because older hardware will eventually be unable to run newer software.
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Sep 26, 2013 04:31
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Winks posted:What...? Things like using the 'camera loophole' are put in by developers to restrict older devices from trying to run a game that they cannot run. Yeah, and the fact remains that Apple cycles their hardware so often so that their users have to keep ponying up cash for the newest, even if the newest is a fractional upgrade over the prior. And the software companies love it since you have to buy software multiple times to keep up with the vanishingly small updates in hardware.
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Sep 26, 2013 04:50
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Winks posted:Fact remains that Steam's going to have to do something because older hardware will eventually be unable to run newer software. They do all those hardware surveys so I imagine that every time you go to buy a new game on SteamOS it'll do a quick system check and then let you know how your system should run the game. Doesn't seem like such a big deal.
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Sep 26, 2013 05:04
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So it turns out that source games render better under OpenGL than DirectX, and then better on Linux than Windows. For the performance increase I could feasibly see myself getting a new SSD in my gaming PC for nothing but dual-booting Steam OS and playing TF2 and Left 4 Dead 2 or 3. http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/linux/faster-zombies/ Palpek posted:There's also this thing: A trackball is nice and all but where are the loving four face buttons? Heran Bago fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Sep 26, 2013 |
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Sep 26, 2013 05:12
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Verizian posted:AMD just made a gigantic fuss about local game streaming and their new Audio engine and how it's both device and platform agnostic in their #GPU14 keynote earlier tonight. Nvidia has also had a similar thing in the works as part of their GRID GaaS project. Phase one is commercial servers that will be sold to big companies for remote cloud streaming of games, Phase two is a small "Home server" that allows local streaming with 1440p over Cat6 and 802.11ac while 720p-1080p only require 802.11n or better. If these streaming technologies do end up working really well for games, it could also be a viable alternative to a gaming laptop. Particularly if the server is in a mini-ITX system in a compact and portable package. That way, you can set the mini-server somewhere out of the way or convenient and play video games via steaming using a cheaper laptop or ultrabook with better battery life and portability. Even if the streaming is limited to Steam OS, it's probably feasible to run a virtualized instance of Steam OS since I don't imagine a streaming client would require enough resources to need direct hardware access. That's what I'm hoping will happen or be able to happen considering just how much power a graphics card needs to draw game at just 1080p which can outstrip the power limits of a laptop and the fact that most gaming laptops will usually have difficulty breaking 6 hours of maximum battery life let alone break 1 hour at full load. Of course, the server will only work when plugged in so you can't quite game anywhere you want. Then again, I can't remember many instances when I would game on my Alienware M14x where a wall socket wasn't available.
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Sep 26, 2013 05:35
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Heran Bago posted:A trackball is nice and all but where are the loving four face buttons? Well you have a whole keyboard of buttons! 
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Sep 26, 2013 05:46
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Edward IV posted:If these streaming technologies do end up working really well for games, it could also be a viable alternative to a gaming laptop. Particularly if the server is in a mini-ITX system in a compact and portable package. That way, you can set the mini-server somewhere out of the way or convenient and play video games via steaming using a cheaper laptop or ultrabook with better battery life and portability. Even if the streaming is limited to Steam OS, it's probably feasible to run a virtualized instance of Steam OS since I don't imagine a streaming client would require enough resources to need direct hardware access. Remote streaming does not work, you have to be on LAN. Latency is not at all workable with remote rendering. See: OnLive.
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Sep 26, 2013 06:04
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Sony seems pretty confident that their Gaikai streaming service will work, though I guess time will tell on that one.
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Sep 26, 2013 06:08
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Taffer posted:Remote streaming does not work, you have to be on LAN. Latency is not at all workable with remote rendering. See: OnLive. The internet can only get faster. unless USA fucks it up, i guess.
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Sep 26, 2013 06:48
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GateheaD posted:The internet can only get faster. This is not a bandwidth issue(to be clear, bandwidth can be problematic too, but that's not what I was referring to.), nor is it exclusive to the USA. Anything higher than 20ms round trip(which includes cloud rendering time, which for the sake of this example would probably be in the range of 10ms, meaning round trip travel time would have to be around 10ms)is extremely noticeable, because after the net latency you have to add the client latency of decompression and display which is usually in the range of 10-15ms. Once you reach 30ms delay, it becomes significantly problematic because of input lag. Until the entire internet infrastructure is replaced with fiber, and all of our switching stations are completely rebuilt for perfect latency, then cloud rendering will not be possible. Needless to say, we're decades away from acceptable latency cloud rendering.
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Sep 26, 2013 07:06
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