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BlueFootedBoobie
Feb 14, 2005

VDay posted:

Yeah that scene was pretty silly, but was worth it just to have Mycroft finally revealed as more than just a dumb, lazy restaurant owner/chef. I did actually laugh though when he said the trigger line, because it implies that he was mic'ed, but for some weird reason the assault team he was with wouldn't have just shot all the bad guys and saved his life if he hadn't said anything. Luckily they decided to not just shoot him in the face immediately, but that was a real Dumb n Dumber 'But what if he shot you in the head?!' moment.

One way you can figure it is that Mycroft is an extremely capable agent who is doing is best to keep his cover as long as he could and probably instructed the assault to hold off until he explicitly gave word, just in case he can still salvage the operation, even if it means he might get shot. He probably has the stature to order that.

Also, De Soto was a higher up so they maybe they wanted to make sure he was clear before the actual killing happened for some insulating reason, which caused the delay.

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ashpanash
Apr 9, 2008

I can see when you are lying.

Or, you know, just lazy film making. Occam's razor.

Blind Pineapple
Oct 27, 2010

For The Perfect Fruit 'n' Kaman

1 part gin
1 part pomegranate syrup
Fill with pineapple juice
Serve over crushed ice

College Slice
Another thing is that Elementary usually does a good enough job of staying away from the usual crime drama tropes that it sticks out like a sore thumb when it falls into one. I think my least favorite episode was early in the first season where the secretary who was killing off her bosses had Sherlock dead to rights, but started monologue-ing for no reason until the cops showed up.

This one had more of a "season 1 finale" feel, where Moriarty had no business getting caught by talking on a wire, but the rest of the episode was so good, I'm willing to forgive it.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D
I love the running joke throughout the show where Sherlock makes food for Joan, almost like they're offerings in order to placate her.

Everett False
Sep 28, 2006

Mopsy, I'm starting to question your medical credentials.

It always feels like he's not comfortable just asking things of her, so he shows up with breakfast and clothes and a turtle as if that somehow makes it better. So awkward. :3:

johntfs
Jun 7, 2013

by Cowcaster
Soiled Meat

KentuckyFriedBonBon posted:

It always feels like he's not comfortable just asking things of her, so he shows up with breakfast and clothes and a turtle as if that somehow makes it better. So awkward. :3:

I think it's kind of a reflection of his ego. Sherlock's problems were so terrible and insurmountable that not even Sherlock could deal with them alone. The very fact that Joan was able to help him makes her like unto a goddess in his mind. Plus, he feels the awkwardness of "Now that you've stitched my mind and soul back together and dragged me from the gutters of drug abuse into true functionality, would you mind terribly popping by the store and getting those snacks I like so much?"

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D
Also, an interesting thing to note that just occurred to me now, I think the show kinda raised a really interesting point in terms of the Holmes mythos where Sherlock and Watson are more connected to each other than Sherlock is with his own brother and Watson basically takes precedence over his own blood. I mean, in the original stories, Mycroft just wasn't there a lot and the same goes for a lot of other adaptions save maybe the BBC one. Though, after watching the recent episode, the Mycroft and Sherlock dynamic is way more ripe for conflict and way more interesting than the BBC one.

johntfs
Jun 7, 2013

by Cowcaster
Soiled Meat

Compendium posted:

Also, an interesting thing to note that just occurred to me now, I think the show kinda raised a really interesting point in terms of the Holmes mythos where Sherlock and Watson are more connected to each other than Sherlock is with his own brother and Watson basically takes precedence over his own blood. I mean, in the original stories, Mycroft just wasn't there a lot and the same goes for a lot of other adaptions save maybe the BBC one. Though, after watching the recent episode, the Mycroft and Sherlock dynamic is way more ripe for conflict and way more interesting than the BBC one.

It's pretty clear that in Elementary, there are some deeply hosed up family dynamics in the Holmes household. Sherlock just described his father as a "Lovecraftian horror." There's been no mention of his mother, which makes me think that she dead (or worse?) For all the sniping between Mycroft and Sherlock in Sherlock, I can't imagine Cumberbatch's character saying "I wish your cancer had rotted you to the bone" or "If something happens to John Watson, I will murder you."

BreakAtmo
May 16, 2009

Did anyone else find this part hysterical?

(Mycroft asks suspect a question, Sherlock gives him a “What are you doing?" look)
Mycroft: “What? Joan asks questions, I've seen her."
Sherlock: “Joan is a trained detective. You are a buffoon."

I could not stop giggling, Miller nailed that line.

johntfs
Jun 7, 2013

by Cowcaster
Soiled Meat

BreakAtmo posted:

Did anyone else find this part hysterical?

(Mycroft asks suspect a question, Sherlock gives him a “What are you doing?" look)
Mycroft: “What? Joan asks questions, I've seen her."
Sherlock: “Joan is a trained detective. You are a buffoon."

I could not stop giggling, Miller nailed that line.

What makes it even better is Sherlock asking the exact same question that Mycroft just asked.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009
Nap Ghost
The funniest part to me was the guy explaining "LEG0LAS5".

And Sherlock being like "contrary to expectations it is not a woman" :laffo:

Everett False
Sep 28, 2006

Mopsy, I'm starting to question your medical credentials.

I like the Mycroft moment even better if you imagine that he's forgotten himself, that he's also worried about Joan and he wants to investigate this to the best of his actual abilities. But then his brother gives him The Look, and he thinks oh poo poo that's right he thinks I'm an idiot and says he's just trying to be like Joan. Both brothers thinking they're following the other, each one under the impression that they're trying to stop the other from cocking this whole thing up.

One thing I love is that when Sherlock is being petty, there is no question that he is being petty. From the perspective of the viewer, of the writer, he is being petty. There's no feeling that the writers want you to think he's a cool dude getting in sick burns on the peons - nope, he's just a petty rear end in a top hat.

I've thought about it and I still really hate that moment at the end with Mycroft and Joan. It really just felt like everything Joan did and all her work the whole episode trying to keep it together, it all got taken away from her so the big man could have his big man moment. "Don't worry Joan, Mycroft is here to save you!" It felt... emotionally manipulative? Not for the audience, necessarily, but for Joan. Or maybe that's anti-Mycroft bias seeping in.

johntfs
Jun 7, 2013

by Cowcaster
Soiled Meat

KentuckyFriedBonBon posted:

I like the Mycroft moment even better if you imagine that he's forgotten himself, that he's also worried about Joan and he wants to investigate this to the best of his actual abilities. But then his brother gives him The Look, and he thinks oh poo poo that's right he thinks I'm an idiot and says he's just trying to be like Joan. Both brothers thinking they're following the other, each one under the impression that they're trying to stop the other from cocking this whole thing up.

One thing I love is that when Sherlock is being petty, there is no question that he is being petty. From the perspective of the viewer, of the writer, he is being petty. There's no feeling that the writers want you to think he's a cool dude getting in sick burns on the peons - nope, he's just a petty rear end in a top hat.

I've thought about it and I still really hate that moment at the end with Mycroft and Joan. It really just felt like everything Joan did and all her work the whole episode trying to keep it together, it all got taken away from her so the big man could have his big man moment. "Don't worry Joan, Mycroft is here to save you!" It felt... emotionally manipulative? Not for the audience, necessarily, but for Joan. Or maybe that's anti-Mycroft bias seeping in.

It agree that it's much cooler to imagine Mycroft your way and I love that Sherlock is unquestionably petty.

As for the "big man moment," that's Joan's reward as well. There was no realistic expectation that Joan was going to be able to save herself from this situation. She just doesn't have the skills or resources yet. However, she kept it together and maybe her compassion caused the guys to hesitate a little at the end. At the very least she wasn't unconscious due to drugs or panic, so she got to see Mycroft's big man moment.

Which is a big deal, because Mycroft being the "big man" was his very big secret and now Joan knows it. That's her reward. She gets to learn and reveal a mystery about Sherlock's own brother which Sherlock did not know even existed.

CuwiKhons
Sep 24, 2009

Seven idiots and a bear walk into a dragon's lair.

BlueFootedBoobie posted:

Also, De Soto was a higher up so they maybe they wanted to make sure he was clear before the actual killing happened for some insulating reason, which caused the delay.

I assumed this was the case. They were waiting for their boss to be clear of the scene so he'd be less connected to the murders.

I really, really liked Joan's entire subplot with the wounded cousin though. On any other show, that would have been something to humanize the bad guys or make them sympathize with Joan so they wouldn't hurt her, but Elementary don't play that game - if Joan could reasonable save somebody who was still an asset then great, but as soon as that guy was beyond Joan's ability to save without a hospital it was pop pop pop and oh, by the way we're still going to kill you if your friends fall through, thx for trying.

Fedule
Mar 27, 2010


No one left uncured.
I got you.
Where is the hype for the current episode?! "I am British intelligence." :allears:

Pick
Jul 19, 2009
Nap Ghost
I think it's just difficult because this was one hell of a setup. The payoff is going to be maaaaad!

Lotus Aura
Aug 16, 2009

KNEEL BEFORE THE WICKED KING!
Yeah, the setup was fantastic and I loved how Escape Artist played when Sherlock was getting Mycroft's fingerprints from the mould. Super reminiscent of a similar thing early in S1 where it played, so that was perfect. Aside from that, there's a ton of great moments that just picking out one is really hard to do.

Next week can't come quick enough.

Space Hamlet
Aug 24, 2009

not listening
not listening
Really hated Joan kissing Mycroft, but I suppose next week could pay it off.

BlueFootedBoobie
Feb 14, 2005

When the the handler said the one thing that would definitely drive Sherlock away from continuing the work, it was clear something was awry.

Everett False
Sep 28, 2006

Mopsy, I'm starting to question your medical credentials.

Are the spoilers necessary? But, to be safe: I love that, rather than letting someone take advantage of his desire to get his brother out of life, Sherlock totally recognizes that someone is trying to do exactly that. I still don't feel any chemistry between Joan and Mycroft, but I guess I'm just going to have to accept that as a thing that is happening.

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D
Not that it can top the current thread title, but "You still pregnant?" had me cracking up especially with Holmes' facial response.

Accretionist
Nov 7, 2012
I BELIEVE IN STUPID CONSPIRACY THEORIES

KentuckyFriedBonBon posted:

I still don't feel any chemistry between Joan and Mycroft, but I guess I'm just going to have to accept that as a thing that is happening.

I'm not really feeling it either. I'm reading it as she wants a relationship more than anything else and, rationally, he's a good fit, and, emotionally, he's tall, smart, has that accent and effectively communicates his feelings, so why not?

Pick
Jul 19, 2009
Nap Ghost
He also stands to inherit half of an apparently exorbitant fortune!

Accretionist
Nov 7, 2012
I BELIEVE IN STUPID CONSPIRACY THEORIES

Pick posted:

He also stands to inherit half of an apparently exorbitant fortune!

That, too. People love those things!

johntfs
Jun 7, 2013

by Cowcaster
Soiled Meat

Pick posted:

He also stands to inherit half of an apparently exorbitant fortune!

Assuming their father ever dies. He is a Lovecraftian horror, after all.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009
Nap Ghost

johntfs posted:

Assuming their father ever dies. He is a Lovecraftian horror, after all.

They're setting up the inevitable transition to paranormal urban fantasy.

Everett False
Sep 28, 2006

Mopsy, I'm starting to question your medical credentials.

Secretly this whole show has been based on Neil Gaiman's A Study In Emerald.

NoneMoreNegative
Jul 20, 2000
GOTH FASCISTIC
PAIN
MASTER




shit wizard dad

Pick posted:

They're setting up the inevitable transition to paranormal urban fantasy.

'Watson, I assume you've read The King in Yellow, hmm yes? Fascinating work.'

Mu Zeta
Oct 17, 2002

Me crush ass to dust

It's the cooking. Gordon Ramsay's face looks like a prune and his wife is pretty hot.

BreakAtmo
May 16, 2009

Sherrington: "I did you a favour last night. I saved your partner's life."
Sherlock: "I'm grateful for that."
Sherrington: "Saved your brother's life too."
Sherlock: "I'll let that slide."
Mycroft: :mad:

I love some of the stuff between the brothers here.

hollylolly
Jun 5, 2009
The Joan/Mycroft kissing scene was... blech. No chemistry at all. I am very interested to see where this goes though - the framing Mycroft bit, not the Joan+Mycroft Sitting in a Tree bit.

Chekov's Heroin has yet to come into play, and I can't see them saving it for next season. Joan moves out, Sherlock backslides?

Annakie
Apr 20, 2005

"It's pretty bad, isn't it? I know it's pretty bad. Ever since I can remember..."
Yeah, completely agreed with everyone on Joan/Mycroft. I don't see a shred of chemistry there, I wish they'd kill that storyline and if Joan's going to have a love interest, bring in someone she's an actual match with. I like Mycroft as a character, but that whole scene was... not great.

The rest of the episode, though, I loved.

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK
Sep 11, 2001



hollylolly posted:

The Joan/Mycroft kissing scene was... blech. No chemistry at all. I am very interested to see where this goes though - the framing Mycroft bit, not the Joan+Mycroft Sitting in a Tree bit.

Chekov's Heroin has yet to come into play, and I can't see them saving it for next season. Joan moves out, Sherlock backslides?

I thought for sure he was gonna get high when Joan was kidnapped.

Ither
Jan 30, 2010
I'll echo everyone. I like Mycroft, but he and Joan don't work together.

Blind Pineapple
Oct 27, 2010

For The Perfect Fruit 'n' Kaman

1 part gin
1 part pomegranate syrup
Fill with pineapple juice
Serve over crushed ice

College Slice
Yeah, Mycroft and Joan is the one leg of that triangle that doesn't work. I can buy them as unlikely friends bonded by caring for a genius manchild, but romantic partners? Not so much. Sherlock and Mycroft have been awesome together all season, though. I also like this adaptation of Mycroft that isn't a government Sherlock, but just a moderately smart lackey with conflicted feelings. Definitely fits how he was built up in previous episodes better than if he turned out to be the "real smartest person ever" at the end of this season.

Is next week the finale? If so, any indication if it will be 2 hours like last year?

Blind Pineapple fucked around with this message at 20:52 on May 9, 2014

Compendium
Jun 18, 2013

M-E-J-E-D

Annakie posted:

Yeah, completely agreed with everyone on Joan/Mycroft. I don't see a shred of chemistry there, I wish they'd kill that storyline and if Joan's going to have a love interest, bring in someone she's an actual match with. I like Mycroft as a character, but that whole scene was... not great.

The rest of the episode, though, I loved.

The more I think about Joan/Mycroft, the more I feel annoyed, especially since it almost overshadows and almost invalidates that really great scene where Joan just goes, "No!" on Mycroft near the beginning of the episode and how she says his dishonesty is not something that neither she or Sherlock can deal with in the long run. Lucy Liu knocked that scene out of the park.

Season finale can at least toss the romance angle into the trash, give me that!

Neep
Jan 2, 2003

Terrorist is Prohibited!!!

Blind Pineapple posted:

Is next week the finale? If so, any indication if it will be 2 hours like last year?

Blah, the season can't end without more Moriarty. Can it?

I like the Mycroft twist this season but last season felt more intense as the stakes felt a lot higher.

AppropriateUser
Feb 17, 2012

Neep posted:

Blah, the season can't end without more Moriarty. Can it?
I like the Mycroft twist this season but last season felt more intense as the stakes felt a lot higher.

They dropped a bucket load of hints implying that Moriarty gets loose next season and targets Watson during that one Moriarty episode. So probably nothing until then.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009
Nap Ghost
I also feel this one is a little bit lower stakes, but I sort of like that, if they're assured a season 3.

I think shows get into trouble when they feel that they always have to ramp up, up, up.

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hollylolly
Jun 5, 2009
:siren: Season Finale :siren:

The Grand Experiment

Rising tension between Sherlock and Joan brings their partnership to a crossroads, but they endeavor to put their differences aside while they help Sherlock's brother, Mycroft, who faces accusations of treason and murder.



[source]

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