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Xander77
Apr 6, 2009

Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.



Final Bonus Update and Plot Explanations

The final update naturally has quite a few



but they are mostly quite similar. I will omit the same "you ran out of time and leads" and "Savinkov and Volvov discover you" that merely take place in different rooms.

Waiting around before going to Gorki Street:




Waiting around on Gorki Street:

Your instinct tells you that the minutes are running out... A familiar face comes out of Yakuchev's apartment.




You've no leads to follow, Rukov. Something tells you that Greenberg has the answer, even if he doesn't realize it.

Less than ten minutes later:



You wait for the militia investigator. What happens thereafter is of little interest; you arrived too late at Yakuchev's. Your mission failed.

Oddly enough, you can hang around Yakuchev's place for longer than ten minutes without being arrested, once you've spoken to Greenberg.

You can ask Greenberg about Motherland and "Memory's Bible" in either order:



Remember how Greenberg asked us not to follow him? If you do (or if you merely leave the apartment immediately after him, instead of searching the place):

: You goons never learn, do you?



The game also warned us against going anywhere besides Great Patriotic War street right afterwards:

In spite of your gut feeling, you decide to give Great Patriotic War street a miss.



If you leave the gallery:



There's only one branch of dialog with the manageress we failed to explore - telling her we're just really into religious art:



If we linger within the gallery - in fact, if we even pause to examine the closet before hiding in it - we are shown out.



We can follow the tourist, for no real reason:



As they climb aboard the tour bus, you realize you have run out of leads to follow. Your initiative came to nothing.

Alternately, following the manageress makes a bit more sense:

The driver conscientiously tails the other cab, which drives around for about 45 minutes, ending up back on Great Patriotic War street.



Someone comes out of the gallery.



: You appreciate of course that your complete insubordination and wild individualistic initiatives will inevitably result in disciplinary measures of the severest kind! Consider yourself under arrest!

You clearly failed to act quickly enough!



The gallery is probably the most time-sensitive moment in the game. Dawdle for just a few minutes, and:



Before you can do anything...

(Yes, you don't even get the option to jump into Protopopov's cell)



The exact same spiel. Volvov contributes nothing, and Savinkov isn't too concerned to find you right outside the open door that leads to Protopopov.

Should we kill Protopopov (any action besides fighting him will cause Volvov to repeat his instructions until Vanya arrives):



: Excellent work, Rukov.



The fewer people know of this affair, the better.

Volvov's bullet splatters your brain on the wall behind you.

Your final possible death is rather obvious, and utterly free of fanfare:



...

Unanswered questions.

With that taken care of, let's delve right into the game's plot, parts of which may remain unclear even after you've finished the game (or read the LP).

As you can see, the list of characters and their relation to each other is rather easy to understand (my thanks to forums user Elite for this contribution):


Right. Perhaps a chart is not quite the best way to make sense of all this. What about a huge text dump, courtesy of the one and only KGB fansite?

Plot Summary posted:


1983 : By making their car explode, Maksim Rukov's parents are assassinated in Afghanistan by Verto and Yakuchev, on the orders of Viktor Galushkin. Rukov's father was a KGB member in active duty there, as well as his brother (Uncle Vanya) who was with him but survived the exposion, although he was confined to a wheelchair afterwards. The reasons for this assassination are unexplained, but because it took place several years before the game's events, it can be assumed they are otherwise unrelated and simply involve some previous internal KGB shenanigans.

1985 : Mikhail Gorbachev becomes the General Secretary of the Communist Party of the USSR (effectively making him leader of the Soviet Union) and launches in the subsequent years an ambitious program of reforms, notably with the concepts of Perestroika and Glasnost.

1990 : Gorbachev becomes President of the USSR, a newly created office. He repeals an article in the Constitution that gave the Communist Party supremacy over all other institutions in society, considerably hindering the Party's power.

1991 : This is when the game begins. The USSR is in a severe economic and political crisis, which some blame on President Gorbachev's reforms, and the power of the Communist Party is dwindling.

A group of hardliner communists are planning a coup to overthrow Gorbachev, whom they reckon is ruining the power of the Party, and replace him with one of their own people. They plan to kidnap Gorbachev and have an impersonator announce his resignation on TV, in favour of a hardliner communist. This group, who gives this project the codename "New Birth", is notably composed of KGB members Viktor Galushkin, Radomir Savinkov, Grigori Agabekov and major Vovlov, as well as Alfred Obukov. They are also helped by a corrupt CIA agent, Carla Wallace.

Their plan is almost ready. An unwitting comatose man named Protopopov has had his face remodelled to look exactly like Gorbachev, and has gone through a groundbreaking "personality restructuring" process in order to erase his real personality and make him recite a specific speech (the resignation speech) when triggered by a code word.

Colonel Kusnetsov, a corrupt power-hungry KGB official, is in their way. In order to distract him and eventually have him arrested and executed, they create an elaborate bait in the form of a snuff video tapes / crack trade. Knowing his corrupt instincts and his taste for money, they arrange for him to notice the trade and get involved in it, so that they can collect proof of his involvement and eventually expose him.

Meanwhile, Uncle Vanya, still working for the KGB undercover, has been investigating all along the murder of his brother. He was eventually led to Galushkin and picked up on the New Birth conspiracy. He asks major Vovlov, who secretly still works for him, to infiltrate the New Birth group. But Vovlov (who either was already part of the group, or joined them afterwards) is in favour of the coup and thus plays the role of a triple agent.

Uncle Vanya is old and confined to a wheelchair, preventing him to do any field work. Vovlov's position doesn't allow for much field work either. So Vanya pulls strings to have his nephew Maksim Rukov transferred to Department P, so he can continue the investigation.

Private detective and ex-KGB member Pyotr Golitsin is hired (unbeknownst to him, by the KGB) to investigate on the snuff tapes business. He eventually becomes aware that his mysterious employer, using the codename Jealous Husband, must be a KGB member, and he then attempts to identify him. This attempt results in his death. Whether convenient or planned all along, his death gives Vovlov an excuse to send Rukov to take over his investigation.

While he is told by his superiors that he is investigating the snuff tapes trade, Rukov's ultimate role in this plan is to find proof of Kusnetsov's involvement so that the New Birth conspirators can dispose of him. Savinkov meets with Rukov and encourages him to focus on Kusnetsov and ignore the other clues (which would point to their real project). But an anonymous informer, Cut-throat, sets Rukov on the right track by telling him Kusnetsov is unimportant and he should focus on Agabekov and his contacts instead. He also mentions New Birth to him for the first time. While Vovlov later claims to have sent Cut-throat, he was in fact probably sent by Uncle Vanya.

Eventually, Rukov finds sufficient reasons to be wary of his employers, and ends up spying on the New Birth conspirators instead.

Just as New Birth is about to come to fruition, members of Pamyat, a xenophobic and anti-communist radical group, kidnap Protopopov.

Thanks to Agabekov's interrogation of the nurse who helped her Pamyat friends with the kidnapping, the New Birth conspirators manage to find out where Protopopov is being kept and come to the rescue. But, meanwhile, Rukov's actions have panicked Savinkov into coming to Vovlov. Understanding that there have been major leaks and that the plan with Protopopov is now likely to fail, the ambitious and self-preserving Vovlov wants to make the most of the situation and attempts to switch sides. He kills Galushkin and Savinkov, who have become a liability to him as they know of his involvement. In order to destroy all evidence and also perhaps so he can claim he prevented the conspiracy and receive considerable honours, he attempts to kill Rukov and Vanya, but ends up getting killed by Rukov in self-defence.

FAQ posted:


Q: Whose side is major Vovlov really on? What does he want?
A: Vovlov supports the coup against Gorbachev, as evidenced by his dying words. For once his words can be trusted here, since he would have no reason to lie about this when he's about to die in a matter of seconds. Vovlov was involved in New Birth and played the role of a triple agent: an agent who pretends to be a double agent having infiltrated an organisation (New Birth) for the benefit of another organisation (Uncle Vanya), while he is in fact on the side of the first organisation (New Birth) all along. But Vovlov is above all an ambitious and self-serving man. When Protopopov is kidnapped and Rukov's actions prompt Savinkov to come to him, he understands there have been major leaks and the plan is likely compromised. He thus attempts to switch sides before it's too late. Galushkin and Savinkov have become a liability to him as they know of his involvement, so he kills them. In an attempt to destroy all evidence and also perhaps so he can claim he prevented the conspiracy and receive considerable honours, he attempts to "clean up" by trying to kill Rukov and Vanya.

Q: Who sends Cut-throat?
A: Uncle Vanya. During the game's last sequence, Vovlov is still trying to convince Rukov that he means him well, and pretends he's the one who sent Cut-throat. If true, this would mean Vovlov is working against New Birth, but from the answer to the previous question we know that's not the case. Vovlov's statements at this point clearly can't be taken seriously, since he also claims Galushkin committed suicide, when it is later revealed he actually killed him. The one person who has been pulling strings and secretly helping Rukov get on the right track is Uncle Vanya, who is thus very likely the person who sent Cut-throat.

Q: Who assassinated Rukov's parents?
A: Verto and Yakuchev, on the orders of Galushkin. The photo of the exploding car was taken both as a proof that the job was done, and as a safety measure so that by tearing it up and keeping one half each, Verto and Yakuchev got to keep incrimating evidence against each other, preventing them from turning on each other. The first half of the photo is found in Verto's apartment, and the second half (showing Galushkin secretly observing the explosion) is found in Yakuchev's apartment.

Q: Why is there a photo of Rukov's parents' assassination in the flats of Verto and Yakuchev?
A: Because they were the assassins (on the orders of Galushkin), see above.

Q: Why were Rukov's parents assassinated?
A: This is never explained, but because it took place eight years before the game's events, it can be assumed the reasons are otherwise unrelated and simply involve some previous internal KGB shenanigans. It is indeed completely unlikely that New Birth existed when Gorbachev wasn't even in power, and similarly unlikely that the snuff tapes / crack trade existed either, since it was a diversion created by the New Birth conspirators.

Q: How did Rukov end up investigating the same people who killed his parents?
A: Since Uncle Vanya orchestrated Rukov's transfer to Department P, he was definitely behind it. It is probable that his own investigation on the murder of Rukov's parents eventually led him to Galushkin, and that he picked up on the New Birth conspiracy while investigating him.

Q: Who bugged Golitsin's phone and searched his office?
A: Greenberg. He spies on Golitsin as he is investigating the snuff tapes business. The bug is of western origin, and Greenberg can be seen watching the place the first time Rukov looks out the window.

Q: Who killed Golitsin?
A: Jealous Husband, or someone working for him. Jealous Husband is undoubtedly a KGB member, possibly Vovlov or Galushkin, as evidenced by Golitsin's speech on the audio tape. Golitsin was killed as he was attempting to discover his identity, so either he discovered too much and had to be disposed of, or he was going to get killed either way so that Rukov could take over his investigation. We know from Verto's comments on Golitsin that his gang didn't do it, so the only other possible answer is Jealous Husband.

Q: Who sends the two killers to Rukov's hotel room, and why?
A: Agabekov did it, knowing it would incriminate Kusnetsov and Chapkin. Chapkin admits it wasn't him while under the influence of the truth serum, so that definitely rules him out. Kusnetsov could have done it out of fear that Rukov would expose his illegal activities, but then: 1) Wouldn't Chapkin know about it since they closely work together? and 2) Why couldn't Kusnetsov simply ask Chapkin to send Viktor Sliunkov, who already openly handles Chapkin's dirty work, instead of hiring him while hiding his identity behind a light? Agabekov, on the other hand, has good reason to hide his identity, and he also fits the "dark haired" description that Burlatski gives. Savinkov is meant to dispose of the killers (isn't it a strange coincidence that the killers show up at the same time as he does?), and coerce one of them into telling Rukov about the deal they made in room 304, eventually pointing to the involvement of Kusnetsov and Chapkin, who control the hotel and let one of their prostitutes use this room. Savinkov instructs Rukov to find out who sent the killers, which is of little relevance to the investigation of the snuff tapes / crack trade, but which is interesting in regards to his real agenda, i.e. finding evidence against Kusnetsov. Agabekov got the copy of Rukov's photo from his ID card when his belongings were taken away in Department 7.

Q: Who is driving the car Agabekov climbed in after his meeting with Obukov?
A: It could be Savinkov, or it could be an unimportant chauffeur.

Q: Who is this "Renko" character Savinkov talks about?
A: There is no Renko, it's a password so that Savinkov can prove his identity to Rukov, since they had never met in person before. The game did not tell you about it, but it can be assumed Rukov was instructed about it orally. It is made clear that Savinkov does not actually expect you to be a "Renko": if you waited for him in your room, he will knock, say "You're not Renko, are you?" and, without waiting for an answer, he calls you Rukov and tells you he's coming in. If you waited for him outside of your room, he will see you face to face and again say "You're not Renko, are you?" before introducing himself and proceeding to your room without waiting for an answer, obviously fully aware of who you really are.

Q: Why does Rukov disobey Savinkov's instructions at the end of Chapter 2?
A: If you've been carefully following the story, it makes perfect sense. But the game just assumes you understand what's happening, even if you don't, so perhaps you were left wondering why the game automatically made you disobey your controller. For starters, Cut-throat and Savinkov are telling you entirely different things: one advises you to focus on Agabekov and ignore Kusnetsov / Chapkin, while the other one advises the exact opposite, so one of them is clearly leading you on. But which one? The first hint of Savinkov's untrustworthiness comes when Greenberg tells you about his habit of giving Cuban cigars to people he is close to. So, thanks to the remains of the Cuban cigar you found (or caught a glimpse of) in Agabekov's office, you know Savinkov recently visited Agabekov. Strange, since he seems so convinced of Agabekov's integrity but pretends they are not in touch. The second and biggest hint comes when you tell him of your important discoveries regarding when, where and how the snuff tapes will be exchanged with the crack. He seems completely uninterested, yet he becomes excited when you give him dirt on Kusnetsov, telling you this is the kind of information he is looking for. Wait a minute, aren't you supposed to be investigating the snuff tapes / crack trade, or is there a hidden agenda here? The final hint comes when Savinkov finally instructs you to do nothing and simply take a well deserved rest in your hotel room, even though this will make you unable to observe the snuff tapes / crack exchange. Greenberg told you that when Savinkov begins to act friendly and humane with you, this is when he's sharpening a knife for your back, which is indeed what he's doing by then. All these hints combined are logically enough to make you conclude you shouldn't trust Savinkov.

Q: Why does Savinkov want to swindle the Leningrad gang by giving them sea salt instead of the crack they are supposed to get?
A: He presumably does this to cause problems within the gang, pushing them to act recklessly and make it easier to attract attention on Kusnetsov's involvement.

Q: What is Carla Wallace after?
A: Her disloyalty to the CIA is made clear early on when she claims that she speaks on Greenberg's behalf and that they are working together, only to have both claims refuted by Greenberg minutes later. According to Greenberg she preferred things how they used to be in the USSR, and thus has an interest in the coup the “New Birth” conspirators are preparing, though her exact motives remain unexplained. She could also have an interest in the crack shipments or an interest in the snuff tapes trade in the USA.

Q: Who burgles Rukov's hotel room in Chapter 4?
A: Whoever did it is a friend of Rukov, since the only thing that disappears is Chapkin's body, and the authorities aren't alerted. The point of the burglary was thus to discreetly get rid of the body so that Rukov doesn't get in trouble. It was probably the work of Cut-throat or one of his men.

Q: Why does Cut-throat deny that the down-and-out with the newspaper in the alley works for him?
A: He is presumably annoyed by the stupid question and does not dignify it with a real answer. It is obvious that they really are working together, not only from the code in the newspaper he gives you but also from when he gives you Yakuchev's address on Cut-throat's behalf.

Q: How come Protopopov was functional even though he was kidnapped before Tsibulenko could work on him?
A: Protopopov was already programmed by someone else before he arrived in Leningrad. Tsibulenko says so himself when you question him, he says his job was merely to "check the stability" and "reinforce the programming" of Protopopov.

Q: Why do the Pamyat members need Protopopov in good shape, since they are anti-communist and obviously against the coup planned by the New Birth conspirators?
A: This is never explained, though it's easy to think of potential reasons. They may want to reprogram him to make him give a different speech and use him for their own goals, or they may want to trade him to the New Birth conspirators in exchange for something else, or they may not know what to do with him yet but want him in good shape because they reckon he'll be useful, etc.

Q: Why is no one from Pamyat guarding Protopopov?
A: This is never explained, but since Rukov gets there only hours after the kidnapping took place, it is entirely possible that they intended on quickly coming back to guard him, but were short of available members given the emergency. It is also possible that Yakuchev was supposed to guard him, but he obviously couldn't get there as he had just been killed.

The one presumption I disagree with is about Uncle Vanya sending Cut-Throat. For one thing, if that was the case, I would hope that Cut-Throat wouldn't be quite so quick to dispose of Maks every time Maks misses one of his little pop-quizzes. For another, Vanya rather clearly states the he wasn't being kept in the loop re: New Birth's plan and Maks' safety until he came to Leningrad in person. Cut-Throat is either sent by some of the other people on Vanya's side, or is actually Volvov's stooge - Drobnitsa or some unknown minor Department 7 officer - there to make sure Volvov has all his bases covered regardless of which faction ends up triumphant.

...

Historical background.

I've made a number of posts in the thread dealing with the context and historical background of Soviet miscellanea. As I am a terribly lazy person, having taken over the LP I only have the energy for a wikipedia link and a brief summary. In order of importance:

The August Putsch. Those of you intimately familiar with Russian history may have noticed something interesting about the date the game takes place on right away (the intro sequence featuring pictures from news footage of the events may have helped). Everyone else were probably quite surprised about the direction the ending took.

On August the 18th-21st, the "reactionary" wing of the communist party conspired to depose Gorbachev. When the putsch is discussed, the reasons for it are generally framed in somewhat vague terms - "opposing Gorbachev's policies". However, it had an extremely concrete goal - preventing the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Though the game has Protopopov spout rhetoric about "death to antisocial elements and enemies of the state", the coup actually failed because Yanaev and his shaky hands band didn't (couldn't, both for ethical reasons and because the army wouldn't obey such a command) spill blood in sufficient quantities to kill Yeltsin and cow his supporters. And that was the end of the grand Soviet experiment.

Political Psychiatry in the Soviet Union. Not much to tell - Sluggish Schizophrenia was a diagnosis reserved for "antisocial elements", and as Tsibulenko demonstrated, pretty much any sort of behavior could be classified as a symptom that would lead to a long and uncomfortable stay in a Soviet psychiatric hospital for people who were (ironically) crazy enough to openly protest against the Soviet regime.

Pamyat. Those antisemitic fascist bastards (in Greenberg's words). Not actually monarchist - unfortunately, whitewashing Nikki 2 was (and still is) a major part of the anticommunist backlash. For a while, people had major concerns about Pamyat and neo-nazi presence in Russia - the cliche was "would the country that defeated fascism end up swallowed by the brown plague?" Well, turns out it wasn't. Yes, demonstrations with "kill the Jews, save Russia" slogans were a part of the times. Yes, quite a few Russian Jews (including my own family) decided to follow the kindly offered advice of "go back to your Israel". But, instead of translating their populist appeal into any sort of success in the elections / inciting actual violent action against Jewish targets, they have split up in a struggle for dominance over and over - each faction leader charging the others with being secret Jews - and quietly faded into irrelevance.

...

So, that was KGB. One of the more unique adventure games out there, as well as one of Cryo Entertainment's two decent games. I had fun finishing this LP, and I hope you had fun reading it. We laughed, we cried, and maybe - just maybe - learned a little something about the Soviet Union as well as ourselves.

Xander77 fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Sep 10, 2014

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Skanker
Mar 21, 2013
Thank you so much for finishing the LP, it was very educational and interesting. This was such a unique game, it definitely deserves some more exposure.

where the red fern gropes
Aug 24, 2011


That was really great. I liked Savinkov :(

paragon1
Nov 22, 2010

FULL COMMUNISM NOW
He's a spy, he's supposed to be able to get people to like him! :v:

The Casualty
Sep 29, 2006
Security Clearance: Pop Secret


Whiny baby

Burzmali posted:

Still the plot gets a 10/10 for being a deeply involved conspiracy that didn't even once involve a Xanatos Gambit.

A what now?

Ratoslov
Feb 15, 2012

Now prepare yourselves! You're the guests of honor at the Greatest Kung Fu Cannibal BBQ Ever!


'Xanatos Gambit' is the dumb TVTropes name for a scheme where the schemer has arranged such that whatever their opponent does, they win anyway. It's really stupid, because it depends on the schemer being able to perfectly predict their opponent's responses.

felgs
Dec 31, 2008

Cats cure all ills. Post more of them.

That was great, thanks for finishing up the LP! That last write up helped with clearing up some confusion I was left with too.

Xander77
Apr 6, 2009

Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.



Thank you, thank you. All cash payments, checks and replacement avatar coupons should be sent to username @ gmail.

Seriously though, I'm glad everyone enjoyed reading this LP. It was one of my big theoretical future projects for a while now, so I'm pleased I actually got to LP it finish an LP someone else started - props to red mammoth by the way. If you still have anything that should be answered, ask now, and I'll edit the last update. Otherwise, I'll probably ask for the thread to added to the LP archive.

Look forward to my LP of the Witcher 1 and / or Jade Empire, coming to a forum near you in the unspecified future. (Unless I have to take over the Gabriel Knight / Betrayal at Krondor LP's)

Dawncloack
Nov 26, 2007
ECKS DEE!
Nap Ghost

Xander77 posted:

Look forward to my LP of the Witcher 1 and / or Jade Empire, coming to a forum near you in the unspecified future. (Unless I have to take over the Gabriel Knight / Betrayal at Krondor LP's)
No man, don't talk about them. Talking about projects decreases the chance of them materializing.

Anyway thanks for finishing it, you are cool and did an ace job I think. And thanks to Red Mammoth, hopefuly he didn't fall off the edge of earth.

Glazius
Jul 22, 2007

Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.

Clapping Larry
This is definitely an interesting end to the whole affair. I... wonder what's actually going to become of Rukov?

The Casualty
Sep 29, 2006
Security Clearance: Pop Secret


Whiny baby

Ratoslov posted:

'Xanatos Gambit' is the dumb TVTropes name for a scheme where the schemer has arranged such that whatever their opponent does, they win anyway. It's really stupid, because it depends on the schemer being able to perfectly predict their opponent's responses.

Oh, just like in The Watchmen!

Uncle Jam
Aug 20, 2005

Perfect
Yeah thanks Xander and Red Mammoth, it was a nice go through of the game.

Its cool to get reacquainted with the fall of the USSR. In the US media it was kind of like, the Berlin Wall fell, a lot of Gulf War stuff, then suddenly there is a putsch? Crazy. Also just the whole sure fire faith that the USSR was doomed to fall made it hard to find the details.

Ensign Expendable
Nov 11, 2008

Lager beer is proof that god loves us
Pillbug

Dawncloack posted:

I know you probably know this, Xander, but just in case there's someone reading who isn't into soviet history, it's not as nonsensical as it seems at first glance. Even during Stalin there were factions. In one famous example, I believe from the first purge, he had those who opposed Lenin's New Economic Policy or NEP shot (that would be the "left wing" of the regime, those in favour of total centralization and no free market at all) and then he had those who favored NEP shot (that would be the "right wing" of the regime, ie. those who were for a very modest economic liberalization).

In this case, "left wing communists", even if it's a term I wouldn't use, refers to those who opposed perestroika. I'd have said hard-line communist. But the effect is the same.

One of my favourite period quips is "The communist party has grown a left wing and a right wing, perhaps it will flap them and fly away."

red mammoth
Nov 3, 2011

Stupid sexy Stalin!
I'm back. Woah, a lot of things have been going on while I was away. Thanks an immense amount to Xander77 for finally finishing this drat thing. I was getting worried that this thing would fall into the archives. I'll update the opening post, and make sure you get co-credited for playing through this.

The Casualty
Sep 29, 2006
Security Clearance: Pop Secret


Whiny baby
Thank you both for playing! I'm very glad that it reached its conclusion.

Dawncloack
Nov 26, 2007
ECKS DEE!
Nap Ghost

Ensign Expendable posted:

One of my favourite period quips is "The communist party has grown a left wing and a right wing, perhaps it will flap them and fly away."

Best avatar/post combo in the story of SA. Stop the presses.

Xander77
Apr 6, 2009

Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.



red mammoth posted:

I'm back. Woah, a lot of things have been going on while I was away. Thanks an immense amount to Xander77 for finally finishing this drat thing. I was getting worried that this thing would fall into the archives. I'll update the opening post, and make sure you get co-credited for playing through this.
No problem. Are you going to ask for it to be added to the LP archive?

Any edits you'd like to see to my updates, stuff you want to add?

red mammoth
Nov 3, 2011

Stupid sexy Stalin!
Yeah, I'll try to get it into the LP Archives. Before that, I'm thinking of doing a compilation post of all the interesting posts about history and stuff in this thread.

Byzantine
Sep 1, 2007

This was a really cool game I'd never have seen otherwise, thanks for showing it off!

Xander77
Apr 6, 2009

Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.



red mammoth posted:

Yeah, I'll try to get it into the LP Archives. Before that, I'm thinking of doing a compilation post of all the interesting posts about history and stuff in this thread.
Damnit. Now I have to go and edit all that stuff, so that it's fit to be seen. Thanks a lot :mad:

Xander77
Apr 6, 2009

Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.



If you are interested in smart(ish) adventure games and my own meager LP stylings, you may want to check out the Gabriel Knight series. We are missing informative lectures though, so any experts in voodoo culture / Bavarian history / spolerific conspiracies are welcome to drop by and share their wisdom.

red mammoth
Nov 3, 2011

Stupid sexy Stalin!
Appendix – Best posts from the thread, part 1

Here's a selection of posts from the thread, which had a lot of interesting discussions about Soviet Russia. Many thanks to everyone who contributed, for making the thread a very interesting read!


On Soviet life in general:

Xander77 posted:

Right, let's finally get around to talking about life for the average Soviet citizen in the late 80's.

Actually, let's test my knowledge of Soviet history without any online references and talk about the 50's for a bit. The USSR didn't quite get the same economic boost as the United States - in fact, the country was still recuperating from the war damage (hell, I seem to recall being told that the economic situation was still partially the result of WWII The Great Patriotic War damage when I was in the first grade [1988] [On another note, "Great_Patriotic_War_(term)" doesn't have a Russian section, and "Великая Отечественная война" doesn't have an English section, apparently due to irreconcilable editing differences]). Still, the economy was bouncing back thanks to improved trade with both the West and Asia. At this point Comrade Kruschev decided to change the economic policy to what I'd refer to as "feeding people with something besides promises".

This might have been out of the goodness of his heart, because the economy could actually use some trade in consumer goods or because the carrot and stick of "endure a bit as we build communism" didn't work quite as well when the stick was less liberally applied. Err, Liberally less applied. Whatever the case, the USSR (unofficially) became a consumer society, one in which you could get a fair day's pay for a fair day's work, and could expect to get certain creature comforts for your pay. You could get some colourful clothes* (influenced by limited exposure to Western fashions), your own car (provided you waited in line like a good citizen) get your own tiny personal apartments in lieu of sharing one with a number of families in a Communal apartment (after a far longer wait), consumer electronics (presumably there was also a queue involved but I'm not sure on this count).
* Did you think that Soviet fashion consisted entirely of grey fur coats and ushankas? I once read a newspaper article about a woman who slipped into a coma during the late 40's and awoke during the early 60's, and one of the lovely details was that she kept thinking that every day must be a holiday or something of the sort, since clothes like that used to be reserved for special occasions.

Most importantly, this was all handed to you on a silver platter merely for doing your part. Sure, you could use proper connections to skip ahead in the line or get your hands on some Western goods, but you'd get your turn by hunkering down and plodding along. By Second World standards (how many people here don't actually know what that term used to mean? Don't be shy, many a person born after the 80's shares your ignorance) life was pretty good. (Caveat warning - all of the above may apply to a far lesser extent to people who didn't live in one of the large metropolitan centers. Russia is traditionally a highly centralized country and the difference between life "proper" and life "provincial" is quite extensive).

The whole things comes to a crashing stop in the mid-80's as the party elite wakes up and discovers the economy is quite hosed. Why? Pick a theory - it could be because Reagan was a smart fellow who caused Saudi Arabia to flood the market with oil, thus dropping the prices on the main Russian export (presumably the only export Russia could provide that was almost untouched by the hands of the common Russian worker). It could be because Reagan was an utter moron who seriously believed that a defense program named after a space opera is going to work and give the US an undeniable edge, thus forcing the Russian economy to switch focus from consumer goods to military development, bankrupting itself in the process. It might be a simple failure of the Planned Economy that was inevitable once the Western powers grew tired of having to periodically bail the USSR out. It could be because pretty much every leader of the communist party was a Zionist CIA spy, sent to undermine Russia from within. There are a million and one theories - "the Russia that we lost, how and why" has been a favorite topic of discussion for a generation, and will probably still be debated in a generation from now.

The first draft of this post (yes, I put way too much effort into this) accidentally presented the following as something new. However, everything I'm about to relate was already inherent in the system, merely aggravated into an all-pervasive practice by the collapsing economy (Or possibly merely finally extended even into Moscow and Leningrad). So let's talk about deficits - localized as "Дефицит", with a "tz" sound:

Actually, let's continue this at another time, ending this post on a moderately optimistic note. I have to go do stuff, and I'd hate for an errant power surge to wipe this post out.

Xander77 posted:

Back to the subject of deficits and / or a day in the life of an average Soviet citizen in the 1980's.

As the aforementioned citizen, you probably have a stable job. No, I mean a stable job that forms the foundation for your stable life. Chances are that you started working once you finished highschool / the university, and you fully expect to be employed in the same place / profession up until you retire. Your place in the social order and your place in line for various benefits (the aforementioned cars, apartments etc) is mostly determined by how important your job is. Your job, not your performance thereof, mind you. There are only so many working class heroes that the country really needs (various intellectual professions are a bit different, but even there your mastery of ideology / proper connections meant more than actually doing your job well) and in all other cases your encouraged to perform no better and no worse than your workplace average. The collective is what's important, not the individual. (People who are more familiar with Japanese / Korean workplaces can let me know whether it's worth making an analogy here)

There's a small chance chance that you're working hard nine to five, but statistically speaking, you're more likely to devote your energy to imitation of hard work. Why? Might be because, as per the Russian Hell joke, half the time you simply don't have the necessary material to work with - and when it does arrive, you engage in a flurry of actual activity, make a bunch of cheap and low quality products in a hurry and then go back to lazing about. Might be because "we pretend to work and they pretend to pay us" (we'll get to what your pay actually means in a paragraph or so). It might just be because you're not going to get fired as long as you're maintaining the most minimal pretense of giving a poo poo - even if you do constantly show up for work blatantly drunk, or even miss work altogether, firing you is a black mark on your managers record. And most of the time you're not drunk or lazing about on your own, but as a part of the collective as a whole - in which case the manager is practically powerless.

As you leave work, tired but satisfied after a productive day of doing absolutely nothing, your manager carefully falsifies papers to make it look like your department has not merely produced everything demanded from it according to the weekly / monthly / annual plan, but actually exceeded said demands. Every department manager hands over his falsified documents to the head administrator, who corrects the more obvious mistakes and reports that his sector is producing record results, exceeding or doubling the expected returns. Having done that, the administrators and managers load up whatever products they have carefully accounted as missing or used up into their cars, to take home or sell on the black market. Workers are limited to stealing by the pocketful, but managers get to steal by the car / truck / wagon load. Luxury goods, food items and electronics sell well, but pretty much anything can find a decent home on the black market / literally in someone's home. Anything is better than wasting said items by sending them out to be sold to any random person.

Having received your pay (handed out in cash at the end of the month, with the stereotypical housewife standing by her husbands side to make sure he doesn't drink his pay on the spot), you head out to the shops. Ostensibly, you can buy anything at a really reasonable price ("Say, where's the shop that's called 'Theory'? I've heard that 'In Theory, you can buy anything'"). In practice, not only does the planned economy produce a whole bunch of needless rubbish for every useful item*, but the manufacturers, managers and sellers have already set aside a healthy portion of the useful stuff for their own needs AND when said useful stuff actually hit the stores, it would do so at random unannounced intervals. Huge queues were formed on the spot, with people sending word to friends and relatives even as they kept a spot for them - even if you don't actually need the stuff, you're going to buy it when you can since you may not get another chance. Naturally enough people would sell their place in line, pay others to stand in their place (a common source of employment for bored teenagers etc) - queues had a life and culture all of their own.

* For instance, ideologically proper communist drivel floods the book stores even though no one is going to buy it. Meanwhile, sci-fi, detective stories and other items of interest come out in limited editions and are sold out on the spot.

Do you remember that scene in Moscow on the Hudson with the huge line of people trying to buy toilet paper? Of course, that's not entirely realistic - if you didn't live in one of the major cities where shops were better supplied so as to cater to foreigners / local elites, you probably had no idea what toilet paper looked like, much less had a chance to stand in line to buy it. As a resident of Muhosransk (the proverbial Flyshitville in the middle of nowhere) you'd spend several days traveling by train to a major city / a friendly southern republic in order to get decent food / clothes / whatever. You'd get entire "sausage trains" heading into Moscow from the provinces, to the point that even the capital stores were emptied out. Non-residents were first restricted from purchasing too many items while away from home, then a rationing system was (re)instated, and then said rationing got a bit creative - if you'd like to get some soap and / or sugar, you'd have to buy a sack of coal to go along with them.

Don't care for queues, ration coupons etc that run out before your turn comes along? The black market is always at your service. The prices are anywhere between 5 and 20 times as high as the official prices in the stores, so you're not going to buy much (unless you're one of the aforementioned managers), but you can trade in something from your place of employment - it's not like you paid for it to begin with.

Red Mike posted:

A lot of these sound very similar to the stories told by my elders, about the former communist regime in Romania, where I live. Especially the lengthy ration queues which you had no guarantee of getting something out of, and the planned economy leading to falsified production and stolen goods. Imports were horrifically limited here, so we this sort of mediocre-to-none production ended up leading to "We were producing every possible good by the boat-load, but the quality was horrible.". These posts really flesh out this thread.

I tried finishing this game myself as a kid, but only got as far as getting locked into the room. I think I figured out I was supposed to flush the cocaine, but once I got out into the apartment, I couldn't figure out what I was supposed to do to escape.


On the KGB itself:


Xander77 posted:

In an ironic twist, let's actually talk about KGB in the KGB LP thread. To begin with, let's establish that everything is not KGB and KGB is not everything. I'm not being facetious - people tend(ed) to take an approach that's pretty much the equivalent of taking everything from FBI to military intelligence and through the local sheriff's department and attributing it to the CIA. The Internal Troops (the boys with AK's and slavering doggies guarding sensitive objects) are not KGB (at the time the story takes place). Pretty much anything related directly to the military is not KGB (ditto). Pretty much anything related to corruption among party functionaries is relegated to the Central Auditing Commission, and woe be to the KGB investigator who dares undertake such an investigation on his own instead of handing over all his evidence and stepping away. The KGB does not produce propaganda, whether within or without the USSR - special party organs deal with that as well. The International department of the central party presidium finances and organizes subversive / revolutionary activities abroad, and party leaders may truthfully claim that the KGB does nothing of the sort. The KGB does control the Border patrol ("пограничники") and (for some odd reason, as any properly paranoid Premier would have made that branch autonomous or directly under his control) the Kremlin Guard. In general, the KGB was extremely limited in the scope of its actions (though within that scope, which included the daily activities of every Soviet citizen, the organization was practically omnipotent), since the party learned rather well that giving the secret police too much power would allow said police free reign to attack the party. As one of my professors put it: If you know a little about the Soviet system, you may think that there was a certain system of checks and balances between the party, the KGB and the army. However, if you know more than a little, you'll see that the army and KGB were both (by necessity) the loyal (but unequal) arms of the party. The party may spy on and discipline both, but not vice-versa. The KGB has a bit of leeway as far as investigating army activities, but not the other way around.

All this, however, is a (quote unquote) recent development. Up until 1954, the KGB had a finger in every one of those pies. Let's take a stroll through history, shall we? The USSR security services, CHEKA - the special commission, was established in 1917, right after the (second) revolution, so as to destroy the Contra. No, I meant the contra-revolution forces, shortened as contra by the communists (known as the defenders of monarchy / supporters of the true democratic revolution* / anarchists / whatever, all rolled into the singular category of "Whites" by Soviet history). A proper Chekist is always stylish. He has a long hands, a neat leather coat and a handy Mauser / Nagant ("A cool head, a flaming heart and clean hands" - The Iron Felix whose portrait must forever hang in every KGB office, including our own). The Chekist-Classic model is (pretty much) the only one you could portray in unabashedly positive / romantic terms in latter Soviet days, or even in the 21st century (for instance,At Home Amongst Strangers, a Stranger Among Friends. Mikhalkov may be a huge pos, but this is objectively an excellent movie you should check out). How come? Probably because that was the one time when the secret police was genuinely necessary / useful (let's put aside the relative value of KGB/GRU accomplishments during WWII for now forever). The burgeoning Soviet republic fought for its very life against an enemy that controlled more territory, had more resources, more troops and more experienced officers - a situation a casual observer would probably consider hopeless (as it well would have been, except see above about the error of considering "Whites" a single category and/or a unified force). During this time Chekists helped lead troops, spied on the enemy and infilitrated armed bands under the guise of Cossack boys caught a large number of genuine spies, saboteurs and enemy sympathizers.

The problem is that nobody wanted to stop when they ran out of real spies, saboteurs etc. Pro-Soviet / Trotskyist history tends to blame Stalin for subverting proper communist values and massacring people out of needless paranoia, but comrade Lenin himself was quite specific in writing that the notion of guilt being proven in the court of law is a liberal-bourgeois one. To the Marxist prosecutor, it matters not whether an individual has committed acts of treason / sabotage / etc - it matters whether that individual is a member of a class / group classified as enemies of the proletariat. Such membership a priori determines his guilt and allows the Soviet courts (the most humane of courts) to do as they will. Throughout the 1920's, the Cheka / OGPU exterminated those aristocrats / capitalists / NEP profiteers that were foolish enough to remain in the USSR - and that's the extermination that no one was particularly bothered by, as it seemed an inevitable and rather necessary consequence of of communist rule.

Some of you may be familiar with Martin Niemöller's First they came. The USSR secret services did precisely that, well over a decade before the Fascists came to power. First they came for the classes outright hostile to the communists. Then they came for the people who weren't properly allied with the communists. Then they came for those allies whose loyalty was questionable. Then (in the 1930's, as the NKVD - The People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs) they came for members of the party to the right of Stalin, to the left of Stalin, up, down, back and forth. Of course, one these people were eliminated, paranoid delusions standard precaution demanded that their immediate allies, friends and family were eliminated in turn. They, in turn, also inexplicably had some allies, friends and family, repeat ad infinitum (or as fast as the NKVD investigators could get through the queue. 1000 death sentences per day during certain periods between 1936-1938) Apparently comrade Stalin wanted his family to be the last living people in the USSR. Actually, Scratch that, Comrade Stalin wanted to be the last person left alive in the USSR.

Lesser party functionaries / everyday workers were lucky - they would get arrested, beaten, asked to sign a confession - spying for England / Japan / both at once and also Germany, sabotaging the Soviet peoples attempts at industrialization / agrarian reform (the notion of "hidden sabotage" wherein the administrator seems to be doing his work properly up until an NKVD agent drops by to examine it is just brilliant), poisoning wells, drinking the blood of christian babies planning to assassinate comrade Stalin / being a part of the conspiracy to assassinate comrade Kirov (ironically / cynically / apathetically, it appears that even engineers in Vladivostok / Mongolia were members of said conspiracy). Prominent party members had to face show trials, which were much more elaborate affairs.

* Those of you looking for a bit of interesting reading can do worse than Trotsky's History of the Russian Revolution which is extremely well written, if not a tad bitter. Specifically,"Five Days (In February)" is a really engrossing story about the forces of Good, Democracy and Enlightenment triumphing over stupid ignorant darkness. Shame that that's not where the story ends.

I'm going to take a break here before going to chronicle the rise and fall of the Roman Empire NKVD power. Let me know if I'm missing / misrepresenting something and/or should focus on a particular subject.

Xander77 posted:

A proper show trial did not begin with an arrest and a fabricated accusation - that was the last act of that particular bit of political theater. First, your former comrades make clear that you are politically isolated, and urge you to publicly confess all your mistakes - thus far, merely errors in judgement rather than active subversion. You're demoted to a irrelevant position and left alone for a while, then you're asked to make yet another speech explicating your many ideological deficiencies, and denounce a number of comrades, most of them already disgraced, who shared you errors. Now you can be arrested. Enhanced interrogation methods were officially condoned in the mid-30's, but interrogators had ways and means before that (and afterwards as well, since the condemned still had to appear in public after their afterwards) - such as arresting your family (who aren't really going to do well regardless of your cooperation). Sign a confession implicating ten to twenty of your comrades, make a speech acknowledging your guilt at the trial, and find a convenient wall to lean against.

The show may have been a bit repetitive, but probably necessary - it wasn't just any odd politician being executed, these were revolutionary heroes. People revered them, taught their children to be like them, named cities after them (on one particular occasion, a city was named after a revolutionary, then renamed after his executioner. When he was un-personed in turn, the city was named after the local ethnicity, under the rational assumption that at least some of those are going to survive). When men like that are revealed to be Finno-Japanese spy at every step, it's much easier to accept that you own little remote village / town / city is also swamped with saboteurs and spies. Even if you're unwilling to accept this, a friendly NKVD agent will prove you wrong - they have a certain arrest and execution quota to meet on a monthly basis.

At this point the NKVD could investigate and lead to the near-guaranteed execution* of ordinary workers, party leaders and military heroes (in the height of the Great Terror, this could be done without a trial, within days). Men would be recalled from Spain or the Chinese front to face charges of being Francoist / Trotskyist collaborators or Japanese agents (for best results, switch the two around. Nowhere was Franco's spy network quite as active as on the Mongolian border). A commissar could execute a unit commander on the spot and lead the men in an attack himself (yes, as per W40K tabletop rules), being sure that his faithful comrades in the заградотря́ды would stop or shoot any men trying to flee. Agents would travel abroad to assassinate political opponents, enemies of the Soviet people or dissidents. The NKVD was at the height of its power.

* On occasion comrade Stalin would take a personal interest in the life of an anti-Soviet writer or some former comrade - a mark of power, so to speak. That's pretty much the only reason Bulgakov lived as long as he had, and anecdotal evidence attributes Budenny's survival to a last minute phone call. Of course, pretty much any condemned comrade and / or their families would write protestations of innocence to Stalin, trying to arrange a personal meeting to plea their case - to no avail.

And at the same time, the NKVD itself was purged from top to bottom, several times in a row. Coming home from a hard days work repressing the proletariat, they would find a group of former subordinates in plain-clothes waiting on the spot. Said subordinates would carefully explain that their former superiors were German / English spies, lead them to a nearby wall for a hasty execution, then take over their office - only to come back home the very next day to their very own surprise party. If a small number of party leaders managed to survive the 30's by sticking to Stalin like glue and posing absolutely no threat, NKVD members had no such recourse - their very position meant they were too threatening to be left alive. When Yezhov was sentenced to be executed, a part of his speech went "I have personally purged 14000 Chekists, but my fault was not purging enough - enemies were everywhere." Agents abroad had a slightly higher survival rate, but their time would certainly have come as well if Beria didn't come into power.

Honestly, I don't know that much about Beria. He's a bit of a divisive character, so a brief summary of the relevant facts leaving the conjecture aside in parenthesis: Up to 1938, Beria was in Georgia, "planting clementines". He helped deal with the local nationalist "bandits", helped develop the agricultural sector, and (by some accounts) personally killed the First Secretary of the Armenian communist party. In 1938 he was recalled to Moscow, appointed the deputy director of the NKVD, and quickly helped organize the demotion, arrest and execution of the previous director, at which point he was promoted to that position. Shortly afterwards, Yezhov's confidants were also demoted, arrested and executed. The "excesses" of the Great Terror were blamed on them, and the purges started to get dialed down a bit - Beria preferred targeted accusations against specific groups / individuals to indiscriminate mass arrests. And... fast forward to 1953. Shortly after Stalin's death, just a Beria (likely) plans to deal with his political rivals and take over the party leadership via the tried and true method of arrest / accusation of treason / execution. (He also forbids the use of torture in interrogations and declares an amnesty - for criminal prisoners, but not politicals). He is arrested (maybe, there's a number of conspiracy theories involving body doubles etc) and executed. After his death, he is accused of having responsibility for the mass repressions of the 30's (which isn't quite the case, see above), being a mass rapist / serial killer (quite likely at least for the former), engineering Stalin's death (no opinion) and being a German agent (cynical nonsense).

At this point, Kruschev and co (re)separate the secret police functions into the Ministry of Internal affairs (MVD) and the Ministry of State Security (MGB, later the Committee of State Security, KGB) and make absolutely, positively, 100% sure that state security will never again be able to touch a member of the part elite. MGB/KGB leaders now come from within the party / Komsomol, and the KGB apparatus is full of party agents (and not vice-versa). When Kruschev faces a conspiracy to demote him, he deals with it using party resources - calling up those members loyal to him into the forum and denouncing the people involved, who are left alive and unharmed. When he is demoted and replaced, the conspiracy acts via a party vote, and the corn grower gets to spend more time with his family.

Things improved for the average Soviet citizen as well - though informers were everywhere(particularly among the creative class), the secret service no longer had an arrest / execution quota, which meant you had to actually say or do something in order to fall within the scope of their attention. You could even protest in public, whether for the enforcement of the Soviet constitution (as our comrade stated, it is indeed theoretically the best constitution in the world), the right to bugger off to Israel etc. You don't get hauled off to the Lubyanka basement on the spot, and friendly KGB agents will in fact warn you to leave off repeatedly before putting you on trial / making sure you're diagnosed as a lazy schizo.

Ensign Expendable posted:

Don't get too sensationalist. Blocking squads were there to reform fleeing soldiers and send them back into battle (arresting those that would not), not executing anyone that they saw. Also the only account of a commissar doing anything like that I have read of was one where a commissar allegedly shot the only remaining soldier in his battalion for trying to surrender, and then himself (but then, who told the story?).


On Russian fashion:


Xander77 posted:

Here's an illustration of my harping on about 60's-70's fashion - satirical cartoons about those damned long-haired hippies. (One picture is worth a thousand ushanka stereotypes)

Actually, that's a thread in the archives, so those of you who can't access it will have to settle for Weird Al Yankovic's nerdier Russian cousin. Or the Russian version of The Musicians of Bremen.


On laziness and decadence:


red mammoth posted:

Sorry guys, I've been busy with school and stuff. The next update should be ready soon, possibly tomorrow.

Ensign Expendable posted:

More like too busy watching television on the beach, decadent capitalist scum!



(From a real Russian texbook, albeit a very much tongue-in-cheek one).


On the guns used in the game:


Mikser posted:

You can actually suppress a Nagant revolver, which has has an unusual moving cylinder construction. But I'd just as readily attribute it to the French developers not being gun nuts.

Comrade Koba posted:

I was about to write a post on how it seems a bit odd that a 19th-century weapon would still be used by criminals in the early 90's (since I imagine TT's and Makarovs would be easier to aquire), but then I found this:

Wikipedia, on the Nagant M1895 posted:

It remains in use with the Russian Railways and remote police forces.

Comrade Koba posted:

Makes me wonder if any other countries are in the habit of arming their railway workers.

Xander77 posted:

1. The nagant is the traditional Chekist weapon.

2. In comrade Lenin's words, "post offices, telegraph centers and railway stations" - capturing these was enough to effectively overthrow the regime. Once the means of communication and movement are under the parties control, areas where no Bolshevik has ever set foot were taking orders from the VKP(B).

More specifically, a number of attempts at counter-revolution were foiled simply because the railway workers were loyal to the party and simply didn't allow trains filled with soldiers to move into Peterburg. By now I suppose it's a merely a matter of practical caution, much like keeping guard over the Aurora cruiser.


On the overall accuracy of the game:


Xander77 posted:

Believe it or not, people didn't actually talk in party slogans - not even people working for the party. Kantselyarit is the common way to characterize / satirize bureaucrats of that sort. The dialogs in this part of the game are stilted and "off" in general, but that's more to do with the writing abilities of the game makers.

As to more common factual mistakes, they are mostly concentrated in latter parts of the game, so I'll go over them then, rather than spoil anything. Still, even for conspiracy media, there's just a lot of fundamental misunderstandings of how the USSR government / secret services worked, nevermind their responsibilities.

Edit - Oh yeah, just one example: Obviously the KGB is not in charge of the GRU, and people can no more be "ordered" transferred from one branch to the other than one can be ordered transferred to the CIA from the military intelligence branch.

red mammoth posted:

And what does it get right?

Xander77 posted:

The standards here are really quite low. Moscow isn't entirely covered in snow regardless of the time of the year. Dancing bears don't drink vodka on the streets. The Ushanka isn't mandatory even indoors. That sort of thing.

Seriously though, this was written by people with at least superficial knowledge of Russia, and that's more than you could expect from most games / movies / books set in the area. Russian naming conventions are used correctly, and those can be hard for foreigners to follow. KGB personnel (and presumably other party functionaries) still use "comrade" as a form of address, but it's out of fashion (except ironically) amongst the civilian population (Russia still doesn't have a standardized polite form of "hey you" to replace "товарищ", for somewhat elaborate reasons).

In general, the end of the 80's was a complicated time, with free enterprise and organized crime making the first inroads into an ostensibly communist country. Little media focuses on that era, as the wild 90's provide a greater scope for political machinations / gun battles on the streets of Moscow, but the game's settings seems to represent the spirit of the time accurately enough.

Xander77 posted:

I forgot to note the smuggled video cassette as an excellent example. One of the definitive cultural markers of the time (though classic 40's noir wasn't as in demand as contemporary action movies etc), it's not a well known signifier outside the former USSR.

On Maksim and Vanya's house, and Russian literature:

Ensign Expendable posted:

I grew up a bit later than that, but I don't think the books changed. A lot of Marshak's books, classic fairy tales. Sherlock Holmes was the poo poo. Winnie the Pooh was very popular, too. If you were lucky enough to know a guy who knows a guy at school, you could get a lovely quality carbon copy of Western science fiction, for one night only. Lots of books about war, too, not just WWII, but modern stuff. My grandfather also had a copy of the Partisan's Companion that I read end to end a number of times, but that might be atypical.

There were no superheroes, in the Western sense. Supernatural abilities were rare in fiction. I only remember two instances: a short story about a policeman who was very tall, and, of course, Karlsson. A lot of the books were about Young Pioneers or similarly "nice" children getting up to an acceptable amount of mischief and then thwarting the plans of some corrupt Bourgeois/border smugglers/anti-social elements.

Xander77 posted:

Oh! Here's something I neglected to mention about Uncle Vanya's gloomy abode - it doesn't have a piano! It doesn't have any carpets hanging on the walls either (for insulation, yeah, but mainly as an ostentatious display of disposable income), but some "intelligentsia" class family didn't approve of such crass displays. But a piano? That's a must. It might be completely out of tune, it might have served as nothing more than a particularly cumbersome shelf for years, but you can't have a "kulturniy" home without a piano.

One of those things you may not note when you study Russian homes from media rather than by living in one.

Ensign Expendable posted:

I was about to say "but Xander, we did not have a piano!" and then I remembered we did, but my interaction with it was limited to elbowing the keys to make some horrible sounds as a child. I was not a proper wunderkind, I could neither play the piano nor the violin, and could barely recite any theorems at all.

Xander77 posted:

When I might have a slightly more in-depth answer when I can check out my parents bookshelves. But some things I can come up with:

Detective stories. Some translated stuff (Sherlock Holmes yeah) - Russian detectives were mostly (entirely?) police procedurals, as the standard talented amateur who makes trained detectives look like utter fools would be politically incorrect (I actually rather like that). The Meeting Place Cannot Be Changed is probably the best one (the same authors, the Vainer brothers, had quite a lot of similarly decent detective stories, most of which were adapted to the screen as well, but never quite as successful)

18th and 19th century adventure stories - Stevenson, Dumas obviously, but also a great deal of stuff that isn't really that popular in the US nowadays - "The Diamond Thieves", Quentin Durward and the likes. Through that, some of Conan Doyle's (relatively) more esoteric stuff, Rider Haggard, Jack London, Kipling (oddly enough) Mark Twain (the full Twain collection contains so much fluff that almost no one in the West would bother with - essays, anecdotes, all sorts of stuff that was barely relevant when published and utterly outdated decades latter).

Limited editions of translated sci-fi, carefully screened. Jules Verne and Wells are prefectly acceptable, Heinlein a bit less so (that Russophobia of his would probably have gotten him banned regardless of what he actually wrote), Asimov is somewhere in the middle. Soviet sci-fi was fairly decent (the Stugratski brothers are still my favorite writers, period) but fantasy was generally discouraged (for a good reason - the flood of terrible generic fantasy that took over the Russian literature market once there was no one around to stop it was overhwelming)

As the Ensign pointed out, a great deal of war literature, some better some worse. I'm still rather fond of The Story of a Real Man.

As to the generic "Russian literature" you're probably thinking about - the 19th century classics? I don't really know if anyone read Gogol or Tolstoy as a teenager outside school assignments. I read Pushkin and Dostoevsky, but I don't know if that was the norm for USSR teens.

This is just the first part, since the full post went over the 50,000 character limit.

red mammoth
Nov 3, 2011

Stupid sexy Stalin!
Appendix - Best posts from the thread, part 2

On the hotel Severnaya Zvezda, Western decadence, the drug trade, and street names:


Xander77 posted:

"Severnaya Zvezda" translates into "The Northern Star", which is exactly the sort of name a Soviet Hotel might have.

The bit about service personnel as said hotel being "consummate professionals" and the like might be a cheeky hint about something that the game doesn't have the time or need to delve into. You may have surmised that people working with tourists were generally informants for the KGB - what you might not have known is that a number of said older professional's behind the service counter or the bar were actually retired security personnel. A colonel or a general's pension means very little compared to the sort of foreign currency* you can earn by supplying tourists with... oh pretty much anything. Women, drugs,"niche films". For the longest time none of the above were available to the average USSR citizen - and had they known that such indulgences were there for tourists, it would have (theoretically) only reinforced their beliefs about decadent Western morals.

The drugs of choice in the USSR were Cocaine for the elite, and Heroin for the common folk - to begin with, mostly in the eastern areas of the USSR, next to Afghanistan. I don't think Crack was ever much of a thing - if the game wasn't made by a French team, I'd blame the hysterical reaction America had in the 90's. "Crack is 11 times more dangerous than Cocaine, according to this sheet of paper I found up my rear end" and all that.


* Immensely valuable and hard to acquire in the Soviet Union.

Kopijeger posted:

What exactly are "niche films"? I'm guessing either pornography or popular Hollywood action films. And this "decadent Western morals" thing, was that a popular stereotype? Did the average Soviet citizen actually perceive the "West" as being more decadent than their own country, even taking into account things like the rate of alcohol abuse being much higher than just about anywhere in the "West" and average lifespans being significantly shorter (thus showing that the average health of the general population is worse) in the USSR?

And another thing: would a "chekist" actually need a warrant in order to search a property? The stereotype of non-democratic regimes is that the security services have the kind of wide-ranging powers that would allow them to barge in almost everywhere they want, but I am curious as to how this would work in real life.

Xander77 posted:

You'd have a far easier time getting a warrant in a Totalitarian society than you would in a Liberal Democratic one, but you would absolutely always have one. Russia is (and always was) a highly bureaucratic society, where every legal action leaves a vast paper trail. As far as the Chekists or any other security service is concerned, this makes more sense than usual - you need to maintain a veneer of legitimacy on the one hand, and you want to make sure every action is held accountable before (ultimately) the party apparatus, so as to keep a tight check on any attempts to... well, do the sort of things we'll see latter on in the game.

It's porn. Sorry if I was a bit too subtle - I kinda assumed that associating the term with women and drugs would tip you off. Popular Hollywood films had (as I noted before) a thriving VHS market, complete with basement-dwelling translators, dubbers and distributors. The average citizen wouldn't require a lot of contacts to get his hands on a Hollywood movie (and a tourist would probably have better things to spend his time and money on).

It was a thing. It was a thing that everyone said. I'm not sure how much "belief" or "facts" factored into it. When Reagan termed the USSR "an Empire of Evil" did you hear a lot of people go "well, they're not the ones selling drugs to people who murder nuns"? Now imagine if every single one of Reagan's predecessors used the same terms going back to 1917.

If it helps, until... oh, the mid-80's, the average Russian had only seen a homeless person / prostitute / drug addict in one of the aforementioned Hollywood films. The idea that within a decade all of the above would become a common sight on Russian streets would seem like a fever dream.
Probably. I'm neither aware of nor interested in the exact travel route. Being allowed to travel abroad was one of the major perks of being a part of the elite, and being able to bring back things that you couldn't purchase in the Soviet Union (legal or otherwise) was the main benefit of traveling.

Ensign Expendable posted:

I should find "Guidelines for Visiting Bourgeois and Other Developing Countries" again. It had a lot of hilarious stuff like "Capitalists will attempt to bribe you. Do not accept cash bribes, and bring any culturally significant material goods you receive for placement in a museum."

Coolguye posted:

Misha Glenny actually talks a lot about this in his writing on the subject (his most famous book is McMafia) and to expand upon this a little bit, the drugs's route usually arrived behind the Iron Curtain to Soviet republics with crappy customs enforcement, of which there were a lot. Georgia and Ukraine are two big ones. They'd come from pretty much anywhere that wasn't NATO affiliated, which sometimes required a change of plane and passport in Africa or something. It generally wasn't a big deal to forge throwaway identities for these criminal networks. From there you hopped a truck to the Russian border, where you used credentials that made the guards hesitant to search you too closely like Xander's talking about, and look at that, Bob's your uncle and you've got however many kg of drugs in the country.

People got caught of course, but people also got away with it enough for it to be economical.

Kopijeger posted:

Seems unlikely that tourists from "bourgeois" countries would bother with porn when they could easily get that stuff at home - if there was a market for them, it seems like it should be among Soviet citizens with better connections than most.

Something I just now noticed:

"Hammer and Sickle street" seems like a joke name (not to mention that they didn't translate other proper names), but it turn out there actually is one in Kharkov:
http://mapia.ua/ru/kharkov/addresses/str-serp-i-molot-47

Xander77 posted:

Soviet hotels didn't have pay-per-view.

Edit - Also, countries are not "bourgeois" any more than they are proletarian. That's not what those words mean.

There's also one in Casan' and a factory in Moscow. It's only a joke for people looking on (from the outside or backwards). The sort of name that actual Soviet people would find bathetic would be something along the lines of Oyushminald. (And if someone can place that reference, I will in absolute awe)
Mmm. That's if you're coming in from the West. Coming in from the East, you've got Afghanistan (and, for that matter, realtively nearby India, Pakistan, China), as mentioned above - a probable source of the first massive heroine shipments to Russia, as well as a small assortment of other drugs. Soldiers became addicts or started dealing during the war, and didn't have much trouble bringing large quantities back home. One popular myth claims that the reason that Kobzon performed so many concerts for the fighting troops was because he was carrying back a suitcase (or, according to the gossipers vulgar disposition, an assfull) of drugs back from every tour. A direct flight to Russia would barely be inspected - and if you're the sort who insists on reasonable risks, Tajikistan is right next door and is entirely incapable of handling border security (then or now).
Mmm. And while people made a big deal about changing Stalingrad or Leningrad's names, no one can (or should) be arsed to change every street and station. Some people may be mildly concerned about Moscow Metro stations that are still named after the Tzar's executioner in 2014, but it's not exactly the most pressing of issues.

Kopijeger posted:

I've seen the term used like that in some Soviet material: for example, I once consulted the 1973 edition of Ozhegov's "Slovar' russkogo yazyka". On the very first page the definition of "абсентеизм" included the phrase "в буржуазных странах" (in the 2005 edition in my possession the phrase is absent from the definition). Googling the phrase also turned up this and this. The point is, there was definitely a practice of labelling countries "bourgeois". My usage was intended as an ironic reference to this usage of the term.

Ensign Expendable posted:

I've seen "bourgeois" used to refer to countries to differentiate them from the same country as a part of the USSR. For example, pre-1940 Estonia would be called "bourgeois Estonia".


On Leningrad:


Xander77 posted:

I won't touch on the "New Birth" thing, for obvious reasons so... how about that welcome we got when we came to Leningrad? I'm not entirely sure that's how an actual internal affairs investigator would have been greeted, but the rivalry between the cities - and representatives of the same organizations with those cities - is very much a thing. Kinda like a stereotypical movie sheriff would welcome an FBI agent moving onto his turf, only worse.

You probably know that Leningrad (or rather, Saint Petersburg) (Or rather, Petrograd) was Russia's capital up until 1917 (or up until a year or two after 1917, who cares). According to some people, that was the very moment that Soviet Russia started going downhill (because things were go ever so well until that point). Leningrad communists, while not belonging to the actual ruling elite which resided in Moscow, always took justifiable pride in being the spear-point of the revolution, and were independent to a fault. Stalin had to organize Kirov's assassination in order to break down and purge the Leningrad party. Despite everything that Leningrad St Petersburg went through, it is still the only place in Russia, besides Moscow, to think of itself as "default city".

Here, have a bit of pretentious wankery on the subject. Despite all other indications, I assure you that it is quite entirely in earnest.


On the Russian language:


Ensign Expendable posted:

German is also capable of transforming words like that, but to a more limited degree. Russian has these things all over the place though, making a direct translation pretty difficult.

Xander77 posted:

This was fairly hard to dig up, actually.

Here's the one big morphological breakdown I could find in Russian

A summary of the same In English

Mind you, when I think about Russian accents, the first thing that comes to mind is very much not the South/West/North distinction. Caucasian accents (racism warning), Odessa / Jewish accents, these are the first that come to mind. Someone else might mention the Moscow accent - drawn out ä sounds - but I have one of those, so I'm not particularly aware of it.

Some sample accents - the various leaders of the Soviet Union. Say what you will, but social mobility was high enough that anyone could become the president Leader, no matter his accent / speech impediment.

Lenin had a speech impediment (also a rather good example of comic takes on USSR accents) that replaced his "r"s with "w"s (an uvular trill, I think?) which made him very easy to parody, even in English.

Stalin has a thick Gruzian accent, which combined with his steady, stoic delivery and repetition of favorite phrases, also made for fertile spoof material. An interesting tidbit: "Mikheil Gelovani greatly resembled Stalin physically, except in his stature: he was much taller than the latter. Reportedly, he was not the premier's favorite candidate for depicting himself on screen: since he was Georgian, he mimicked Stalin's accent "to perfection". Therefore, the leader personally preferred Aleksei Dikiy, who used classic Russian pronunciation."

Khrushchev apparently had a bit of a Ukranian accent, but I can't find a decent breakdown / parody (well, I can find parodies of the shoe scene, but they don't exactly focus on the accent).

Brezhnev had an extreme combo of an Ukranian accent, ill-fitting dentures, severe stroke-damage and possible other general issues that combined into a fantastic host of pronunciation issues that infamously turned "socialist countries" into "lovely sausages" (you'll note that Brezhnev is really hard to parody as any older or more incomprehensible that he was IRL).

Gorbachev has a Southern country bumpkin accent (which may explain his love of pizza). That and a whole host of parasite words and phrases he used constantly would form the basis for most of his parodies.


On Russian organized crime:


Xander77 posted:

The Russian criminal brotherhood.

You may have heard of them "The Russian mafia". Which is a very rough simplification - the New Russians, roughly synonymous with modern Russian organized crime don't really uphold the old-timey codes and traditions, while the old-school gangsters can't really form proper organized crime gangs precisely because of these rules...

Ok, let's back this one up a bit. The old fashioned Russian criminals are unlike the Mafia in so far as they aren't organized in families or clans (ethnic criminal groups possibly excepted). They are alike in so far as they are all supposed to follow the criminal code. In fact, hierarchy is rather diffuse - but all too pervasive. You may not be member of a particular organization, you may not have a "rank", but whenever you arrive in a new town, you are expected to arrange a meeting with the locals, give them an idea as to what kind of "specialist" you are, and prove that you know and respect the unwritten rules - "the understandings" that were reached over the decades. There is a fairly large and inflexible code of thief conduct - but please abandon any ideas about noble or honorable thieves (even though that's one possible translation of what they call themselves). Like all criminal codes, it's mostly concerned with butchering shearing the sheep and keeping the peace amongst the wolves. A criminal who is never caught breaking the code, and puts in his time, may become a "Thief in Law" - often translated as a "Godfather" equivalent. But a "Vor v Zakone" may not lead a large gang or even have any "proper" subordinates (again, a different and more diffuse hierarchy) - he is merely a particularly respected member of the underworld community. You can even buy this rank, though such a title will only carry certain formal privileges, rather than proper authority.

If there is a certain positive side to the code, it is the prejudice against casual murder. A man who resorts to wet-work for no good reason may be feared, but not respected. It only takes so much mindless killing to be labelled as one "frozen solid" - an outlaw among outlaws, a man who respects neither the law of the state nor that of criminals. Immoral and depraved even by underworld standards, such a man is guided only be immediate greed, and may well be hunted down by his former comrades for their own safety. Kinda like The Beast in VTM, when you think about it.

Beyond the obvious and expected aspects of that code, the most striking aspect is probably the fact that an "honest" thief can't ever cooperate with The State. No, I said beyond the obvious. When interrogated by a representative of The State (whether a policeman, a psychiatrist or a social worker equivalent), he is obliged to declare himself a thief (a synecdochic signifier in criminal culture which encompasses any number of criminal paths), proclaim his indomitable hatred for The State, and refuse to answer further questions. He never registers with the state in any capacity, nor signs any documents - he cannot obtain a legal dwelling in his own name, get married or have a proper job, even as a cover. When in jail, he cannot be a part of the penal labor force, regardless of the repercussions (though in a "well run" jail, the "professional" criminals, as opposed to the civilians who went to jail for a single offense, will not be asked to work by the prison administration to begin with). An illustrative anecdote - if a previously "honest" thief is asked to ring a bell in order to announce that dinner is served, the moment his hand grasps the bell, he is a "bitch", a collaborator with the authorities, and his end will be swift and merciless.

During WWII The Great Patriotic War, when it looked as though Russia may be overwhelmed and wiped out, a great thieves meeting was called, where many members argued for suspending their struggle against the state for the duration of the war. Though the assembly at large decided against it, many a professional criminal went out and signed up for the army - used to form the penal battalions which would "wipe away their shame with blood". Their own blood, for the most part, as the penal battalions would naturally be used to attack the most dangerous spots, and would be shot if they tried to run. Still, quite a few survived and even prospered - apparently some criminal skills and luck actually made them into exemplary fighting men. After the end of the war, these (often highly decorated) veterans weren't really trained in a proper profession (and of course, many of them had no desire to work for a living regardless), and soon wound up right back in jail. This marked the beginning of the "bitch" wars, where the "honest" thief population eventually exterminated the "traitors".

Guess what broke down in the 90's? If you've been following my posts, you'll know that the answer is "everything". The criminal code included. You can't have an organized crime... err... organization... if you're not cooperating with the state. You can't call yourself "a legitimate businessman" if you can't even pretend to be an honest worker. You can't maintain a disdain for murder when contract killings are the usual way of settling business disagreements. A great many of the New Russians who rose to short prominence were bright university kids who cooperated with or employed former military or security personnel (all anathema to the old-schoolers) and made cash hand over fist (for the short time they had at the top before a rival disposed of them). Being a "frozen" criminal who utterly disregarded the old ways and killed indiscriminately was the shortest path to success.

Though the wild days of the 90's are behind us, and most of the criminal class from that days are resting in their graves / parliament seats, I doubt that the code will ever be reestablished in a meaningful way. It's far too restrictive, even for the new authoritarian Russia.

Ensign Expendable posted:

All that, and not a single New Russian joke? I am disappointed.

The New Russians are stereotypically represented as people with more money than sense. They suddenly came into their fortunes, and have no idea what to do with them, so various anecdotes tend to be about them buying gold chains, garish clothes, cars (they favour the "Mercedes 600"), and various overpriced Western doodads. All in dollars, of course.

Now their children, these are the ones with business sense.

Kopijeger posted:

I remember that the Pavel Lungin film "Oligarkh" had one such joke. It went something like this:

One New Russian shows his new tie to another:
- See this tie? I paid 3000 dollars for it.
- You got scammed. I saw them offering an identical one for 5000.


On Russian movies:


Covski posted:

Speaking of russian criminals and movies, has any of you seen Zhmurki? (Dead Man's Bluff in english)

It takes place in the russian underworld in the early nineties, after the fall of the Soviet union. I enjoyed it a lot, even though much of the references to russian 90's action movies as well as the apparent all-star cast is lost one me. I would love if someone could elaborate a bit on this. It's also by far the most brutal and gruesome movie I've ever seen listed as a "comedy" on IMBd. :ohdear:

Xander77 posted:

I've made a post about Perestroika films in another thread but the average Russian 90's action movie looked something like this.

Sources of inspiration at the time? Probably this ("Rape and revenge" wasn't a genre in Soviet times, for obvious reasons) or this.


On Subbotniks:


Xander77 posted:

Something you probably didn't know about the Soviet Union (part whatever): Subbotniks

The very first Subbotniks (Sabbath...niks.) took place when ideologically driven railway workers resolved to put in extra volunteer work on their day off, until the Civil War ends with the crushing victory of the Red Army. A number of equally committed workers in other vital industries have copied their example, and it wasn't long before Vladimir Ilyich was writing a passionate essay on "The Great Undertaking" as the precursor of true communism, and organizing Subbotniks to clear the rabble around the Kermlin (literal, not metaphorical, obviously).


(Grandpa Lenin helps the workers carry a log to/from the Kremlin. Ilyich would occasionally a carry a log all on his own - but according to knowing people, that was a special, inflatable log.)

With that fine example firmly in place, Subbotniks quickly became ubiquitous. Since the average citizen was, sadly, not quite as ideologically omitted and eager to volunteer his free time for the task of workplace / living quarters improvement as Lenin and his railroad crew (check out their upcoming album on Lighthouse radio), Subbotniks quickly became a stable of "involuntary volunteering" (volens nolens, for the academically minded among you).

I've been told that this concept - "добровольно принудительно" - is hard to explain to people who didn't grow up in Soviet Russia (or one of the neighboring countries that were kindly invited to participate in the grand experiment). Ostensibly voluntary, you would suffer all sorts of unofficial repercussions if you couldn't produce a convincing excuse for your lack of participation - at the end of the day, if the higher ups don't take any steps, the collective itself is not fond of individuals who think too highly of themselves. The Russian saying here is "do you think you're the smartest? That you deserve more than everyone else?" As you can see, Subbotniks were communist precursors to modern team building exercises.

So, what actually happens during a Subbotnik? General community improvement activities - clean, paint, mend, move, plant etc. You were only volunteered so often if you were a gainfully employed adult (and of course, the Soviet regime made great efforts to ensure that no one had a chance to laze around without working for a living). As a highschool / university student, you'd be encouraged to spend your free months helping with the harvest. As an elementary student, you'd be going door to door, soliciting paper recyclables (only 50 pounds of "makulatura" for a Jule Verne book)

I can't quite find a lovely satirical clip of a comedian troop trying to encourage Putin's supporters to organize a Subbotnik to clean up after their meeting / volunteer to help with the harvest, but I've been told that there's unofficial encouragement to restart the practice taking place as we speak - so as ever in Russian, satire can't compete with how absurd reality gets.


On the difficult gameplay of KGB:


WendyO posted:

I liked this game when I played it, even though I needed a walkthrough at a couple points. I think it shows a step on a path that adventure games didn't take; we can look back and see where Sierra, Lucas Arts, and all the rest went and eventually laid down to die and also the smaller studio games that branched off a bit with ideas that didn't take off then but seem a larger part of the resurgence of the adventure genre now.

To me it always seemed like the mainstream of adventure games all had the same gameplay - it didn't matter if you were King Graham or Guybrush Threepwood or Leisure Suit Larry, you'd always be scrounging for poo poo to grab and then waving it around until the game progresses. It's not automatically a bad way to go but it means that making the game a fun experience rests almost entirely on the atmosphere, the theme, the internal consistency of the game, and the writing. When those are lacking or the well just runs dry in a series, they all branched out into better graphics or voice acting, or being 'interactive movies' and eventually collapsed into a moribund joke of a genre.

And then there's games like this, and to a greater extent games like Quest for Glory and the like, where the role you're playing changes the gameplay around dramatically. The puzzle to solve is that you need to meet with Hollywood, and along the way you'll be scrounging up a clipboard to get into an apartment to go through dialogue puzzles, but then it's important to remember you're a KGB agent and that it's not just a matter of finding things to use or saying the right things; you'll have to kill thugs and keep your knowledge of the secret notes a secret and, above all, make it look good to your superiors. I think this game has a lot of problems from the bad old days of game design, and those pop up a lot thicker and faster later on, but it's still a neat game that did something very different from a lot of others in the same genre.

Helm posted:

Ah, I love the feedback you get here about your suspect attitude.

WendyO: Again, sorry to sound like a broken record, but the deciding influence is from text adventures (or as they are called nowadays, interactive fiction), here. That path for adventure games that you are rightly lamenting they didn't take was actually explored quite a bit in the pre-graphical days. I can't remember any spy games right now, but there certainly were a lot of private investigation ones, where you had to have figured out what was going on and to be at the right place on the right time, or you were walking dead, a la KGB. So you could play some of the Infocom classics for more of this sort of thing!

Often IF players lament the move to point n' click graphics and call them 'pointless clickery' exactly because these latter games had puzzles you could brute force by clicking everything on everything until you found the one solution that worked. The one solution the development team could afford to create the assets for. Those IF players would have no such complaints about KGB, where (almost) everything the player does must be according to some preconceived plan and there's even variable, sub-optimal ways to achieve success.

I think the main reason we didn't see a lot of that in the graphical point n' clicker days of the genre was twofold. On one hand yes, they're very difficult and require the player to wrap their mind around a completely different way of playing than either the winning Sierra or LEC paradigm. On the other hand, it's a matter of creative/programming limitations. If you play KGB you'll notice there is little to no animation. Characters enter and exit rooms via a weird rectangular form that puts their picture in and out of the background. When you want to use the verb HIDE, you get that weird icon of yourself hiding, you don't actually get your sprite walking up there and hiding behind a door or anything. When you drag a body from one screen to the next, it's again highly abstracted, that sort of thing. Portraying highly variable and dynamic situations and play-spaces is obviously not the strong suit for a graphical adventure game, at least one not designed by a small team. But it's considerably easier to do with a pure text UI.

Graphical adventure games were the AAA titles of their time. They had gorgeous graphics and animations and stories and characters, that's how they got their audience, that's how they sold computers, VGA cards and soundblasters, not with clever puzzles and adult themes. It's no wonder the evolutionary branch of KGB became vestigial. Even in our modern times with the adventure game resurgence there's very few adult themes in the new crop of games and there's certainly no dynamic systems and ruthless walking deads like KGB's.

tomanton posted:

This is awesome, but also kind of thought-provoking that the game does very little hand-holding but demands near perfection. The only modern games I can think of that allow for that much foresight are the Hitman series but you can at least strongarm those when they go belly up. Games just don't offer this depth of failure anymore but what was dumbed down first, the games or us?

inflatablefish posted:

Repeated failure can be very disheartening - unless the developers really know what they're doing, it can swiftly leach all the fun out of the game. I think that's why I never got very far in this game when I had it as a kid; I couldn't see where I was going wrong and didn't have the patience for endless trial-and-error. That's why games like Monkey Island left behind the die-a-million-times philosophy of the old Sierra adventures, and I can only see that as an improvement to the fun of the game rather than a dumbing down.

Things have been dumbed down for the console generation, of course - or at least, very much streamlined. I think changing demographics are the reason for this - you have more adult gamers these days (those of us who were kids back in the 80s), who have much more disposable income than they used to but much less free time to really dig in to a deep, involved game.

Dreggon posted:

Old Sierra-type adventure games were less about "what's my goal and how do I get to it" and more about "what exact sequence of actions does the developer want me to take?" Hitman as an example has several completely valid ways to do each level. You have to kill your target, but you can use poison (either direct injection or on something consumable), shoot your target with a sniper rifle from a distance, lure them into a room and strangle them, or just charge into the level and kill everyone to death with your guns. Adventure games, you get one path, and you will frequently find yourself in unwinnable situations with no indication that you've done anything wrong. That's just how games were back then. Budgets were a lot smaller and metrics of what would sell and what wouldn't were limited by the lack of data sets.

Despite that, older adventure games are awesome fun. The penalty for screwing up is that you have to do it again, but properly. You learn. Newer games, go from point A to point B to point C etc. etc. until the developer has told their story.

tomanton posted:

The best adventure game marriage I've seen of old-school punishment and new-school playability was The Last Express, which simulates real time as KGB/Conspiracy does, but let you rewind time to any point in the game's three-day timeframe. The player could proactively use it to try different approaches to puzzles, or buy more time to explore and check out all the flavor text - but in the event of a game over, it automatically rewound things to the last point where you could still change events for the better. Whether you bungled a quick time event or made the game unwinnable a day earlier there was no such thing as a doomed save.

Neat game altogether, heavy on period accuracy and political intrigue and Russian folklore and also LPed to completion very recently.


On French comics:


Kopijeger posted:

Those paintings reminded me of a comic book from roughly the same era as the game. The long-running French comic Spirou et Fantasio has an album first published in 1990 where the heroes become involved in intrigue in late Soviet Moscow.

Some highlights:










Kopijeger posted:

Many of their comics do, for example Soda: it was written by the same guy who wrote the above (Tomé), but illustrated by different artists who still have a fairly similar style to Janry.

Another page, to illustrate the "creative" use of random Russian words:



Character chart (spoilers)


Elite posted:

After marathoning this thread I decided to make a thing.



There didn't seem like much point putting the Chapter 4 characters in as we barely know anything about them yet and we're likely to know a lot more in a few updates time. I kind of got bored towards the end and it shows a bit, but still someone was requesting a character chart.

Oh and the 'Retro' look is not because I'm an idiot who has no sense of style, but because I'm evoking the era of the game. Or at least that's what I tell myself.


End-game chat (spoilers, obviously)


Bobbin Threadbare posted:

They brought Protopopov into the Rogov Institute simply to check on his programming, but then the nurse alerted the Pamyat, the neo-czarist fascist group that owns the gallery, and they stole the fake Gorbachev for their own use. Apparently Rukov's handler was a member of the fascists, but Volvov, the other guy who confronts you, was a double agent and a hard-line communist.

From what I can tell, the reason everything gets confusing is because there are no fewer than four factions involved: there's the moderate government represented by Rukov and his uncle, the left-wing communists who brainwashed Protopopov as part of their coup attempt on the government, the right-wing Pamyat whose KGB contacts alerted them to Protopopov and had him kidnapped, and the gangsters who were set by Pamyat to act as a distraction. However, once Protopopov is kidnapped, the communists decide to go ahead without him, leaving Volvov to eliminate the fake Gorbachev and anyone who knows about him.

Xander77 posted:

You really should have, though. Why else would I ask something as leading as "how many updates do you think are left"? :)
Huh. A bit of googling tells me that the artwork for this run of the comic was done by someone who hasn't really worked on anything else. I guess that's just the popular comic style in France and there's where I remember the art style from?
I'll save most of my explanations for the update, but Pamyat aren't actually monarchist. No one really is/was, it's just that whitewashing that piece of poo poo was an unfortunately major part of the anti-communist backlash. Volvov is in fact a triple agent.

"left wing communists"

You don't say :)

Dawncloack posted:

I know you probably know this, Xander, but just in case there's someone reading who isn't into soviet history, it's not as nonsensical as it seems at first glance. Even during Stalin there were factions. In one famous example, I believe from the first purge, he had those who opposed Lenin's New Economic Policy or NEP shot (that would be the "left wing" of the regime, those in favour of total centralization and no free market at all) and then he had those who favored NEP shot (that would be the "right wing" of the regime, ie. those who were for a very modest economic liberalization).

In this case, "left wing communists", even if it's a term I wouldn't use, refers to those who opposed perestroika. I'd have said hard-line communist. But the effect is the same.


Once again, thanks to everyone who contributed. These are far from the only interesting posts from the thread, so read it if you can.

Special thanks to Ensign Expendable, Kopijeger, and especially Xander77, for their in-depth knowledge of Russia, and the Soviet Union in general. Thanks to Elite for the cool character chart. Finally, another big thanks to Xander77 for stepping in and finishing the LP after a long hiatus.

red mammoth fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Sep 19, 2014

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Xander77
Apr 6, 2009

Fuck it then. For another pit sandwich and some 'tater salad, I'll post a few more.



Turns out I completely forgot to edit my posts into something more coherent. Welp.

Do me a favor and delete the one about the Militzia? It's remarkably poo poo and pointless.

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