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Ola
Jul 19, 2004



It can also be expanding water vapor, although 135F seems a bit cool to generate vapor. When I do immersion sealed veggies at 182F, the bags inevitably balloon.

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Ola
Jul 19, 2004



Very strange that. When I do carrots in butter at 83C, it smells disconcertingly lovely but the plastic bags have never seemed like they were leaking.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



I'm cooking for my friends next weekend. The idea is to debone/butterfly a leg of lamb, wrap it up with garlic and spices, drop it in a 60C/140F puddle Friday morning before work and serve dinner in the evening (with ratatouille and potato/celeriac mash).

Does anyone have experience with roast style lamb? I might try to make it into a square shape instead of a round one to make it easier to sear afterwards. There can be a bit of connective tissue in the leg, but 10-12 hours should sort it out right? Or do I need 24 hours? Higher temp?

And should I sautée the garlic first? I seem to recall reading that raw garlic at sous vide temps just overpowers everything.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



I will definitely mind the garlic, thanks. As for doing it in the oven, well that does work fine, it's a traditional spring/easter meal here and it's delicious. But it's the boring normal way, so in addition to the dinner being only a few hours after work I thought I'd give it a try. I'll see if I can get some leg cuts from the butcher so I can do a mini roast on my own. Never hurts to prototype.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



Veritek83 posted:

I've seen reference to really needing a vac sealer for long cooks, as opposed to ziploc'ing. True fact or malicious marketing ploy on the part of Big Vacuum?

I use bread/freezer bags without ziploc for everything. Submerge most of it, then tie a knot. They are very thin so at high temps (like doing carrots at 83C, which I think is worth the effort) or long cooks, I guess some of the contents go through the bag by osmosis. Can't really see it in the water but I can smell it. I double bagged a 48 hour round once, it was completely tight.

One thing I like about these type of bags is that I can cut away the knot, drain the juices to make gravy and then put the meat back in to keep warm. I use a rice cooker so I just leave the now opened bag hanging by the lid.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



geetee posted:

I am slightly concerned those bags are not intended to be heated. Good on you if you've already researched it, if not, heads up goon buddy.

I can't say I've researched it, but so far so good. Have hardly ever used anything else, have not died. It could be that the higher temp of 83C is what causes some volatiles from the carrots to pass through while all the beef juices stay in at 58C. You would need go well above boiling temp to do any actual damage to the plastic.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



TATPants posted:

I just made the glazed carrots from SeriousEats and if you have not made them, then you absolutely should. They are so drat tasty. My only problem with them was that I cut the carrots 'faux-tourne' per the recipe, which left a lot of air in the bag so I had to weight it down. Next time I'll keep the carrots mostly whole.

I found I had to do this with all veggies. They float, it's their nature. I don't have a submersible rack or anything similar for my rice cooker. When I pressed "post reply" I wanted to ask for tips, but I've just had an idea. Bag the carrots with a piece of stainless steel or a clean rock!

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



Sautéed garlic trip report: Excellent!

Grated a garlic, then gently softened it in olive oil. Let it cool for a little while, bagged it with dried rosemany and thyme, salt and pepper and a lamb shank which went in the puddle at 60C for 20-odd hours. Flavor was perfect, mild and fragrant just like garlic in an oven roast. The shank was good too, although I can see why most recipes say 48 hours. The connective tissue was still a bit tough, it was a bit like eating a huge chicken wing - sometimes those tendons can be a bit chewy. The shape meant it was almost impossible to sear, so I didn't bother. I think I'll do shanks in the oven next time.

The ghost of the garlic definitely permeated the thin plastic bags. The kitchen smelled lovely when I got home from work. So I've double bagged the deboned leg of lamb which is ready for about 10 hours at 60C. Ground sautéed garlic with olive oil, fresh rosemary and thyme in my mortar, smeared it on the buttterflied leg and tied it like a roast. Hopefully this means I can debag and sear it without it falling apart. Serving it with ratatouille and potato/celeriac mash. Fingers crossed for everything.

Choadmaster posted:

I tested a flat iron a few weeks ago, vizzled along with some ribeyes. The ribeyes were great, as always, but nobody (me included) really liked the flat iron. The ribeyes were more flavorful and far more tender. I only did ~3 hours though. Was that the problem? Or did I get a lovely flat iron (Whole Foods meat is generally pretty drat good)? (Questions are for anyone to answer, not specifically directed at DiverTwig.)

Was it the flavor or the texture? I've found some cuts just turn dry and dull with sous vide, they are better suited to be seared to hell, then braised in tomato and wine.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



TATPants posted:

Before being sealed, the pressure of the food is 1 atm, and after, it is much closer to zero.

This is not true. Before it is vacuum sealed, the air is pushing on it. After vacuum sealing, the plastic pushes on it. If you had a meat pressure gauge inside it, it would read 1 atmosphere. To have a pressure difference, you need a barrier that doesn't yield or a constant flow. A stiff plastic box can easily hold a noticeable pressure difference, which you can see if you close it with something hot inside and let it cool. The air contracts and the box lets off a *pssht* as air rushes in when you open it.

TATPants posted:

Try this thought experiment...Let's say you climb up Everest, where the air pressure is a lot lower than at ground level, and fill a big bag of air and seal it. Climb down the mountain and your bag has become all shriveled. Why? The air pressure inside it is lower than atmospheric pressure, which caused it to appear deflated because of the force that pressure applies to the surface of the bag.

The bolded bit is not true. Yes the bag will shrivel, because the pressure outside the bag has compressed the air inside it until the two pressures were equal. It has the same pressure as the outside, but since there are no more molecules added to the bag on the trip down, they take up a smaller volume than they did on top. You could get a pressure difference by using a solid container or by doing it the other way around. Fill a bag of air at the bottom and bring it to the top. If it doesn't burst, it will be taut as a drum from the overpressure inside it wanting to escape.

TATPants posted:

Untrue - remember that the air is a fluid, too.

Of course not, it's a gas. There are conditions in which air can behave as a liquid, the atmosphere in your kitchen, romantic as it might be, is not one of those.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



Choadmaster posted:

Gasses are fluids, man.

No they are not. Gases are gases, liquids are liquids. That's two of the three phases of matter.





Choadmaster posted:

Also you missed his point that air is removed from the interstices of a porous food - that's what allows the inner pressure to reduce and the outer pressure to then compress the food.

Edit: Try vaccing (vazzling?) a soft sponge, for an extreme example.

No, that's the point I tried to clear up. This would work with a solid sponge which didn't change its shape during the process. The gaps inside it previously filled with air would lose their contents without changing shape. There would be nothing (or a lot less) inside them, a vacuum. But a burger patty or a soft sponge will compress, those gaps will disappear. It will take up a smaller volume but have the same pressure. There is a pressure difference which causes the air to escape, created by the vacuum machine. When the air is flowing, a pressure gauge would show a drop. But once the bag is sealed, the pressure inside the flexible container it is the same as outside it, only the atmosphere inside is 100% sirloin instead of 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, bits of argon etc.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



Right, I've misunderstood the use of fluid and liquid. Both are fluids, ok. But a liquid is different to a gas agree? Water (the primary ingredient of steak) does not compress, air does.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



I've given up blazing hot pans for searing, my feeble ventilator can't deal with the smoke and my small apartment quickly fills up. Sucks when having guests. So instead I sear it in butter on a high-ish but normal temperature. This has the advantage of making it immediately usable for a pan sauce. It does take longer than ideal, but I find the layer of overcooked meat creeps very slowly into the meat and you can save some by flipping it frequently during the sear, Ducasse-style.

When the meat is done but before I'm ready to sear it, I cut a hole in the bag, drain the juices into a pan and put the bag back in the puddle (making sure the hole is out of the water) to keep warm. I then boil the juices to solidify the various bits in it, adding stuff like butter, wine and onions. If there is a lot of floating bits, I'll strain it, then put it back on to reduce further. After the meat is seared, I then deglaze with the already somewhat thickened sauce. It soaks up the fat and brown bits from the pan in addition to thickening up very quickly. One of the best sauces I ever made contained only bag juices, half a glass of port and two tablespoons of butter plus a tiny amount of seasoning.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



I'm trying various vegetables to see if anything special comes up. So far my favorites are carrots and shallots. Tried a tomato and some radishes at 83C/182F today. The radishes were not good. They tasted like the boiled vegetables of hospital dinners, very little left of the peppery awesomeness of raw ones. But the tomato was interesting. It tasted similar to canned tomatoes, but more intensely. I suppose the canning process is very similar to sous vide and that the tomatoes selected for canning are of a lower quality grade than the ones sold fresh. Might be interesting to try a selection of fresh ones svizzled instead of canned ones for a stew, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort compared to just chopping them up and letting it simmer slowly. Anyone have any good veggie tips?

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



Bob_McBob posted:

Why does everyone want all their kitchen appliances to have wifi?

Look honey! I don't have to set the stand mixer's power setting with old fashioned dial anymore! I just take out my phone, press a button which triggers a command to be sent over the 3G network to a web service in the cloud where it takes my ID and the command, matches the ID against the database of stand mixers, queues up the command for the stand mixer, waits for the stand mixer to phone home to its web service and download its command, which it then executes so the bread is now being kneaded at 4 instead 3! Isn't the future amazing?

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



Etrips posted:

Is there something I am missing with Anova's website? Trying to add a product to my card to buy, but nothing happens.

It needs to sit in your cart for 72 hours before it's tender for transactions.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



geetee posted:

I used grapeseed oil for my first time. I think the milk proteins may help with the browning, but I haven't used it enough to say that with any certainty.

If you're using butter, be sure to let the water boil off first and let it brown a bit. I've found margarine is great for searing. I got tired of my kitchen smoking down from scorching hot oil, so I've started pan searing at lower temps for longer with either butter or margarine. Butter tastes better, margarine browns better, both leave nice bits for a pan sauce.

Searing lower and slower might leave a thicker zone of overcooked meat, makes little practical difference for me. You'd probably notice it more in a photo than in the mouth.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



Just bought a month's subscription to eRobertParker to try it out, the online version of Wine Advocate. I know he's popular to hate and the vintage web design is well into its decline, but the deciding factor was a 2005 Château Giscours I had, where I just couldn't put words to a flavor which had triggered a memory, nor could anyone else I found on google apart from Parker - glycerine! Not sure if waxing skis or eating crayons was the triggered memory. (or top fuel dragster exhaust maybe, ah childhood) The content seems up to the task so far. For instance I was struggling to find worthwhile reviews of a wine I tasted on holiday, Saint Cosme Côte-Rôtie, WA had twelve vintages.

Now, I haven't tried any other of the paid services such as Wine Spectator, International Wine Cellar etc so they might be just as good or better. What about you guys, which services do you like/hate and why?

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



Steve Yun posted:

I dunno, I've never subscribed to a paid wine service for sous vide advice before

Oh god. I follow two threads in this subforum and managed to confuse them. At least they are a good pairing.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



If anyone else has a problem with floaty vegetables, here's how I solve it:



A nice round rock, bagged. Then bag the bagged rock with the veggies. Sunk like a drunk Archimedes in a Hollywood pool. The rock might impart some depth and minerality to the carrots if bagged together, I haven't tried that yet.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



Flash Gordon Ramsay posted:

I don't know what kind of heavy rear end forks you're using, but I tried to keep my carrots submerged with two pairs of kitchen shears and a big bartender's bottle opener and it wasn't enough to keep the carrots from rotating enough to make everything fall off.

Exactly. I did try some simple things first. A dinner plate won't keep it down, the carrots just works themselves to the side. A single fork would just some parched, utterly dry castaway on a raft of carrots. Since I use a rice cooker without any circulation, I give it a stir now and then as well, so it's nice to work with negative buoyancy. If you have a rack thing that works, nice. I don't, because I want to fit the lid as well.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



Jeoh posted:

Is making black garlic sous vide a thing? I figure it'd keep my house from smelling like garlic for weeks. And the bacteria should die off after 2 weeks of 50C, right?

Had never heard about black garlic before, looks pretty interesting. Does it really need two weeks at 60C? Another thing is drying, a vacuumed bag won't let any moisture out and all black garlic pics I've found look quite dry. I'm up for an experiment though, after new years.

Ola fucked around with this message at Dec 21, 2014 around 20:30

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



Steve Yun posted:

At the very least you can do a week, 40 days is for the full effect.

Yeah, traditionally black garlic is done in boxes or rice cookers with no water, it might be best to do it in a PID setup with a dry rice cooker or slow cooker and thermometer probe (I've seen some setups with wooden boxes like smokers with a PID setup and a hot plate). I don't know how an immersion circulator would be since it involves water and the moisture may or may not cause molding, even if the garlic is in dry jars sitting in the hot water. Who knows?

edit: my mom says if you're going to do it in a dry setup, make sure to put the garlic on top of something like a rack or some stones, so that it's not exposed to direct heat. Also it will smell for the first few days so maybe put it out on the patio or something.

I have a PID controller and a rice cooker, so I could do it dry as well. But leaving it for hours when I'm at work is not very appealing. This guide: http://www.shinshine.com/my-blog/20...ack-garlic.html describes the process in a rice cooker very well. I suppose I could stuff the temp probe in a clove. Not too keen on the smell though, small appartment. I think this will probably go on the back burner until summer when I can leave it outside.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



I've also had my controller run away from me. How did I fix it? Turned it off and back on again. If you cook with computers, act like computers.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



Jose posted:

When is the bag juice usable? I keep seeing different opinions

When there's enough of it and it tastes good. My bag juice sauce:

When the meat is done, take it out, cut a small hole and pour the bag juices into a small saucepan. Then put the bag back in the water, making sure the hole is resealed or otherwise out of the water. Vacuum isn't important, it's just for keeping it warm for a little while.

In a small saucepan, bring the juices to a rolling boil with chopped onion and port - and/or any other sauce flavorant you desire. Sometimes there will be an unappetizing froth forming in the juice, particularly if you've had the bone in, the boil will cause this froth to solidify. Let it reduce for a little while, then strain the onions and froth out, set aside.

When searing the meat, don't use crazy amounts of oil or stuff you don't want in a sauce. Because after searing, you deglaze the pan with the sauce. (I prefer margarine for searing for this reason) The sauce thickens very quickly from the high heat and the sugar in the port. Even so, stir in some nice butter (not margarine this time) to make it extra thick and tasty. Plate the meat and indulge.

Port goes very well with lamb and venison, beef might work better with dry red or perhaps dark beer and some dried chili. Experiment away, the concept is very simple and versatile.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



Denature how exactly? Does it get very gloopy and gelatinous? The times I've dony multi-day vizzles, the juices didn't seem very different from shorter duration ones.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



Steve Yun posted:

Anyone got a time/temp for quail eggs? I followed a williams sonoma recipe 147 for 20-30 mins and the whites never set

The easiest thing is to try hotter temp and see if you still like the yolk, but since the whites and yolk set at different temps you might want to try preboiling for a minute before vizzling. I don't think more time helps it set firmer.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



SubG posted:

It will unless you're way the gently caress off with the temperature.

What's the right temp/time? I'd like to perfect my sous vide egg, in the past I've only ever gotten nice yolks.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



SubG posted:

Depends on the egg and how you want it to come out. What I'm saying is that for whatever temperature you're using, the longer you leave it in the firmer the egg will be (unless you're running your puddle machine too cold to cook an egg at all).


I tried three eggs yesterday, 63C (145F) for 1, 3 and 5 hours. The 1 hour egg had a runny yolk and a watery white. 3 hour had a perfect, custard-like yolk but the white was slightly too runny to scoop up on my piece of toast (which included some crunchy and egg-absorbent rocket salad) and it's easy to see that some parts of the white set earlier than others. The 5 hour egg was almost the same, perhaps every so slightly more set. I think the big difference between the first and second might be that the eggs very very large and simply took more than 1 hour to heat through properly. I guess a post boil is inevitable if you want a poached egg, but just getting that custardy yolk out and dropping it on some asparagus or fish is great.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



I've also made it in a bag, but it came out kind of lumpy. I've managed one good hollandaise, otherwise egg emulsions have been a bit of a pain.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



Gonna try two things today, in preparation for dinner tomorrow, sous vide potatoes and caramelized onions.

The potatoes are going in a gratin, so I will just mandolin them, vizzle at 85C and cool. Then tomorrow I can just open the bag and add them to the baking dish, add the rest and throw in oven. Simple enough. But the onions is something new. I came across this recipe:

http://www.orgasmicchef.com/soup/so...melised-onions/

The gist of it is, sautée onion, bag it, vizzle for a day at 85C / 186F

Anyone tried it? It's not that hard to caramelize onions in the pan, but there is always the risk of burning etc. Being able to get a large amount of evenly caramelized onions would be great.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



Indolent Bastard posted:

I do have a quarter cow incoming, so meat supplies aren't an issue. Most of my food is homemade (by my wife, who has no interest is sous vide) so I like food made with skill and care. I just wish I could rent one to see how I like using it and the results I get before I drop $170.

Perhaps the higher effort but lower dollar solution of crock pot or rice cooker with temp controller is worth a try? Like the STC-1000 mentioned at the top of this page: http://forums.somethingawful.com/sh...1#post440681953

If you leave it, you'd still have the crock pot or the rice cooker. I don't know if that thing needs more hardware, I bought a SousVideMagic for around $150 some years ago, haven't had a need do upgrade and I do more sous vide than I cook rice in the rice cooker.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



My first attempt at sous vide was a big pot full of water on the stove, regular stove thermometer suspended in it, and beef in bread bags vacuumed by submerging in water. It means you have to watch a thermometer for an hour, but it is the cheapest way of seeing if a sous vide steak is for you. If it, then you can up the ante. Shouldn't cost you more than $10.

My onions are sealed and stewing now, was not surprised that slightly sautéed onions screwed up my sealer. Ended up doing a suck-and-tie plastic bag seal of the onions, then bagging it along with my anti vegetative buoyancy device (a vacuum sealed stone). Not too happy about going to work with it sitting at 85C. I will see how much water evaporates overnight. Even if there's double redundancy (both rice cooker and controller cuts out), the reward isn't worth the risk.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



deimos posted:

Errm, wouldn't have done that, if you didn't sautee them enough they will explode your bags.

Looks like I did, because the bag hardly inflated at all. Onions came out lovely, not deep and nutty brown but nice and sweet and with a bit of tang. Will definitely do this again.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



Heran Bago posted:



How did these both turn out?

Potatoes didn't turn out well. They were too chewy and didn't absorb the gratin fluid very well. Best way is the French way, cook the potatoes gently in milk and cream mix, but it's something you have to watch carefully so it doesn't burn. I thought sous vide might make it zero effort but need to come up with a better way.

Onions were great. Kind of high effort, but nice to get very consistent results without a hint of bitterness, something I'm not always too good at in the pan. The color was kind of light but the flavor deep and lovely. Well worth it if you are also doing loads of other things and want to save effort, perhaps not worth it if you are really good at doing it in the pan.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



Sous vide, it's two syllables just like "hell yeah", "high five" or "broski". Just say it. Soo vid. "Let's head over to my place and soo vid some steaks". "Hell yeah broski" etc.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



For the greater good, I am now doing a test on un-sauteed onions at 85C. Will it explode and cover the scattered ruins of my neighbourhood in sweet browniness? Or will it just inflate the bag a bit but stay submerged due to the rock weighing it down? We shall see.

Also added a piece of star anise out of curiosity.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



Result after 24 hours, hardly any ballooning:



There is a lot of volatiles escaping through the bags, the kitchen smelled of sweet onion all day, that's the case with all high temp vizzles I guess. Onion is deep brown, but the flavor is much less than the last time I tried. Could be because of the star anise, could be because 1/3rd was red onion. The star anise flavor was ok, perhaps a nice combo for a spicy fish dish, but you'll have more control over its impact by adding it to a sauce later. I'll try this one more time with only yellow onion, nothing more.

The reason I'd like to avoid sauteeing first is because then the onion gives off a lot of liquid and it can mess with my sealer. There is a tray to catch fluids but if the bag is too wet it doesn't seal properly.

About the flavor, while this one was a bit off, the onions usually come out excellent. Not so deep brown in color as when done in a pan, but very deep in flavor. You miss out the darkest shades of caramelization, so sometimes you can't avoid doing it in a pan. But like with so many other SV uses, it's nice to be able to get great consistent results with mindless effort.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



Idea for a simple sauce using sous vide eggs: Do the egg at a fairly low temp so the yolk is firm, but still spreadable. Reduce some wine with onions and herbs. Whisk eggs with wine, add some cream. Think it'll work? Going to try it tomorrow with some smoked salmon pasta, not sure if I am going to use only the yolk or the still-runny whites as well.


c0ldfuse posted:

For thick cut lamb chops--any reason I should use sous vide vs traditional sear and into oven for a couple min for hitting doneness?

Depends on how fat the lamb got. For very fatty cuts, I prefer the oven. The fat melts and drains off. If they're normal to lean, sous vide every time.

Ola
Jul 19, 2004



It didn't quite work. Did the egg at 65C, used only the yolk. It didn't thicken like raw eggs in pasta carbonara does. But the wine/onion reduction + eggs with pasta and smoked salmon was delicious, I'll just skip the sous vide step next time.

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Ola
Jul 19, 2004



That actually makes a lot of sense. Acid does "cook" meat, a soft, spongy fish gets firm and flaky when you soak it in citric acid to make ceviche. More cooking time means firmer meat, higher temp (compared to room or fridge temp ceviche) means faster chemical reaction. I can't remember doing anything particularly acidic sous vide, perhaps it can be turned to a virtue instead of a vice somehow? I have been doing some sauerkraut lately with the age old fermentation method. Another way of making (a different kind of) kraut is boiling it with sugar and vinegar. Perhaps you could get some interesting results by sous vid'ing shredded cabbage with some vinegar for a day or two?

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