Sous veni, sous vide, sous vizzle

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Goons with Spoons > Sous veni, sous vide, sous vizzle

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

Safety Dance posted:

I swear to god, half the people in this loving thread must live like AIDS patients or The Boy in the Bubble. It's loving food. Heat it up for a while and eat it, you're not going to get botulism.

uh, Clostridium botulinum can grow at temperatures up to 110*f, so this isn't a pointless discussion for stuff that would require a longer cooking time

# ¿ Feb 28, 2014 19:53

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# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 02:05

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

a foolish pianist posted:

What are you even talking about now? Pasteurization and cooking are different things entirely. A grilled steak is cooked, but not pasteurized. The milk in my fridge is pasteurized but not cooked.

yes, because this is the grill thread, how silly of deimos.
cooking a steak sous vide to completion would only require a few hours, and pasteurisation wouldn't happen, but this is not the case with eggs or anything that requires a >3h cooking time.

# ¿ Mar 1, 2014 06:28

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

geetee posted:

I am slightly concerned those bags are not intended to be heated. Good on you if you've already researched it, if not, heads up goon buddy.

perhaps you should do research yourself instead of going DURR MOLTEN PLASTIC BAD

http://modernistcuisine.com/2013/03/is-it-safe-cook-plastic/
(^third result for 'are ziploc bags safe for sous vide cooking' in google)

lousy hat posted:

Yeah the "raw" bit was really more about flavor, responding to the initial flavor comment, and I could have phrased that more clearly.

At the same time, knowing that killing the bacteria doesn't destroy the Botulinum toxin always makes me cautious when dealing with raw garlic and any significant time in the danger zone, so I tend to be pretty conservative on that front. But yeah I don't want to spread bad info so I'll keep that in mind.

using fresh garlic in sous vide cooking isn't recommended as it gains a metallic flavour when cooked under vacuum. dried garlic would be preferable for this application.

# ¿ Mar 28, 2014 16:24

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

geetee posted:

Sucks when you go for that slam dunk but end up looking like an rear end in a top hat.

not so much, as long as the bag involved is polyethylene or polypropylene(like ziploc bags, bread bags and most foodsafe plastics), that link is accurate.

# ¿ Mar 28, 2014 17:32

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

Anne Whateley posted:

Bread bags aren't rated microwave safe as far as I know, because that's not a normal application. It at least seems worth asking.

except he's not microwaving them :???:

ScienceAndMusic posted:

You could have made your point above without looking like a giant douchebag too ya know.

and geetee could have googled a few words to educate themselves about plastic safety. oh the road not taken.

# ¿ Mar 28, 2014 19:45

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

Anne Whateley posted:

From your link, dude:

interesting, though you could just as easily use the plastic identifier number I suppose

# ¿ Mar 28, 2014 21:02

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

MeKeV posted:

Forgive my ignorance, but what is the closest alternative cut for short ribs in the UK?

apparently the short rib cut is referred to as "Jacob's ladder" in the UK.

# ¿ Apr 15, 2014 16:31

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

FireTora posted:

Think my original Nomiku might have just poo poo itself tonight. Just did 48 hour short ribs at 144 F. Was leaving some in for another 24 hours but it shut it self off after a hour or so. Some moisture looks like it got in the display/touch power. Leaving it out to dry tonight to see if it will magically start working, it shuts off after about 30 seconds right now.

have you tried sticking it in a bag of dry rice?

# ¿ Jan 23, 2015 20:01

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

kensei posted:

I was reading somewhere that chicken gets rubbery if you leave it in for longer than 4 hours. C/D? I wanted to cook some to make shredded meat for tacos, and I was hoping to leave it in all day while I am at work.

this is true for breast, if you use thigh or leg you should be good to let it sit all day

# ¿ Feb 5, 2015 02:56

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

Phanatic posted:

The pot's metal and has a lot more surface area than just the surface of the water does. The point behind the cover isn't for thermal insulation, it's to reduce evaporation so you don't come home from work and find out that the water level dropped below the cutoff point and your 72-hour shortribs are now 112-degree food poisoning.

If the circulator can get whatever quantity of water you're using up to the target temperature, it can hold it there. Water has a *lot* of thermal mass.

foil will leak air, so the point you're going for isn't there.

# ¿ Jun 9, 2015 18:55

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

Safety Dance posted:

Yeah and idiotic plastic balls won't? It's about reducing the _amount_ of water vapor that escapes.

not if they're in the water and reflecting heat back down (also reducing the surface area of the water in contact with the air), which foil being metal and generally unable to float reliably, it can't do as well.

# ¿ Jun 9, 2015 19:35

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

nuru posted:

I've read some things here about people cooking things in a bag, freezing the bag again, then somehow heating it up again before sear. Considering the amount of time it may take to thaw something in the water, does this save much time?

It wouldn't take that much time to thaw in a waterbath(more so if you have a circulating SV setup), though the usefulness of doing this would depend on the amount of time between steps 2 and 3, i.e. not very useful if it's all being done the same day.

# ¿ Jun 11, 2015 23:28

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

here's a chart from chefsteps that lists temperatures for sous vide: http://www.chefsteps.com/activities/sous-vide-time-and-temperature-guide

there's also a printable one halfway down the page.

# ¿ Jul 30, 2015 22:03

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

Subjunctive posted:

I skimmed the thread, but I can't find it: someone posted t&t for ribs that were tender but not falling off. Anyone have experience to share?

here's a chart that lists times and temps(optimal temps mostly) for various meat types

MasterFugu posted:

here's a chart from chefsteps that lists temperatures for sous vide: http://www.chefsteps.com/activities/sous-vide-time-and-temperature-guide

there's also a printable one halfway down the page.

Elizabethan Error fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Aug 3, 2015

# ¿ Aug 3, 2015 23:31

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

Subjunctive posted:

Thanks -- would you consider ribs to be a tough cut? What doneness would you target for tender-but-not-falling-apart?

Yes, and probably medium rare(68C/154f)

# ¿ Aug 4, 2015 16:51

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

Sir Kodiak posted:

154 F for medium rare?

for pork, yah.

# ¿ Aug 4, 2015 18:50

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

LorneReams posted:

Try 144. 154 is a bit high.

I usually go here, they have not hosed me yet.

http://www.chefsteps.com/activities/sous-vide-time-and-temperature-guide

....that's where I got 154f from...

Flash Gordon Ramsay posted:

Medium well maybe. I cook my pork to a (fda approved) final temp of 145.

I was quoting chefsteps' numbers directly, they're probably covering themselves a bit

# ¿ Aug 4, 2015 19:02

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

Steve Yun posted:

I'd take Chef Steps' numbers with a grain of salt. Their 72 hour short rib was at 129�F and I found it to be insufficiently rendered.

collagen renders at 140-160f, so it wouldn't be, but that's why it's the rare temp after all.

# ¿ Aug 4, 2015 21:14

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

Chef De Cuisinart posted:

Keller does 132F for 72 hours. ChefSteps isn't some kind of Real Test Kitchen. Nor is Serious Eats(nowadays). Get back to reading Good Books written by Good Chefs people.

Well, no, you're wrong.

Collagen can certainly liquefy at low temperatures, it just takes more time.

your link posted:

When you cook, collagen begins to melt at about 160F and turns to a rich liquid, gelatin. This gives meat a lot of flavor and a wonderful silky texture. When cooking it is important to liquify collagen.
...
NOTES: At 140�F changes are caused by the denaturing of collagen in the cells. Meat served at this temperature med-rare is changing from juicy to dry. At 160�F/ 70�C connective tissue collagen begins to dissolve to gelatin.

# ¿ Aug 6, 2015 18:42

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

SubG posted:

That page cites McGee's On Food and Cooking, which was originally written in 1984 (with a second edition in 2004), and therefore doesn't take into account the fact that a reader might be expecting to cook a piece of meat literally for several days at low temperature. McGee makes a lot of assumptions for the sake (I assume) of readability, which he---but roughly nobody who ever quotes him---is usually careful to qualify.

If you read a survey that cites more recent references, particularly one written with for an audience interested in s-v, you'll get different numbers. E.g., this article from Baldwin (which I quote mostly because it cites all the references):

...with a bonus...

...which turns out is pretty good advice.

the abstract is an interesting read, though I'm left wondering if there's any studies that have been done on the liquefaction rate of collagen over time. CS's diagram was somewhat accurate in an aggregate sense but lacks fine detail.

# ¿ Aug 7, 2015 01:21

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

Chef De Cuisinart posted:

Botulism spores are destroyed at around 250F. Put your garlic in a pot with oil, bake at 275F for an hour. It's safe in the fridge more or less indefinitely after that, especially if it stays submerged in oil.

unless the pot was capped with a clean lid, it wouldn't be safe forever because botulinum is everywhere.

# ¿ May 9, 2016 23:04

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

be sure to use freezer bags as opposed to storage, storage ones aren't watertight generally.

# ¿ Jun 23, 2016 19:02

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

It would also be impossible to remove the whole lid without removing your IC device

# ¿ Dec 6, 2016 00:12

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

Anne Whateley posted:

In those turkey videos, it looks like the columns of flame shoot straight up and don't originate from the burner.

it looks that way because the steam hides the ignition, so it just looks like it's going up.

# ¿ Feb 23, 2017 23:54

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

Olothreutes posted:

Dies above 122?

122 is above the upper point where it'll grow, but not above the point where it can't survive(140f)

# ¿ Mar 14, 2017 00:09

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

Ultimate Mango posted:

What is the best way to ensure that 63 C eggs release from their shells?

I am planning on doing 63C eggs and hollandaise for easter, but have always had problems with the whites sticking to the shells in the past....

boil them for <30s then iceshock pre-puddle is the way I heard of, should cook the exterior white enough to help separation.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2017 19:05

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

kirtar posted:

I'm working under the assumption that it's really sheep because sheep in the US isn't necessarily sheep and that there will be a decent amount of connective tissue due to being from the shoulder.

lamb and mutton are both sheep

# ¿ Apr 18, 2017 18:49

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

Hopper posted:

I see it like this:
Sodium chloride exists naturally, as in it can be harvested from the the sea or underground as a crystal, and soy sauce or fish sauce or worcestershire use natural ingredients that make up a sauce to get the flavour enhancing stuff.
Pure MSG is made large-scale by bacterial secretion into a tank and filtration and isolation of the compound. Maggi is made from enzymatic hydrolisation.

So the former sauces can all be hand made from natural ingredients, while the latter use industrial scale chemical processes to create a product that enhances the flavour.

I prefer the natural way to achieve the result not the "chemistry" way. I would rather use fish sauce or mushrooms or other ingredients that boosts the flavour by their natural glutamate content than sprinkle chemistry in my recipe.
Does that make sense? I feel like I may not be able to express the exact idea in my head as I am not a native speaker.

Also I mean no offence by saying "chemical", use whatever you prefer, I just can't express it better.

"this variety of chemical extraction is better than that variety because it uses smaller words" :downs:

glutamate is naturally present in meats; if it's enhancing the flavor of whatever you're eating it's because msg and glutamates are the best of friends.
also msg has like 1/4 the sodium content of Na2Cl

# ¿ Apr 19, 2017 20:53

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

Hopper posted:

Yeah so I prefer to achieve a well tasting meal by combining (to put it in a very simple way) ingredients that are not synthesized in a lab if good flavour can be achieved without said synthesized ingredients.
Is that so odd?

How about a similar example:
Would you not rather eat strawberry yoghurt that gets its flavour from real strawberries rather than from strawberry aroma derived from chemical processing of wood chips?

I mean yes technically it makes no difference where the flavor comes from if the molecule is chemically identical. But real strawberries are still better than wood-chip derived aroma, wouldn't you agree?

And along the same lines i'd rather get the MSG from a leaf of seaweed or a bunch of mushrooms in my dish than from sprinkling in the lab grown stuff.

Is that really so odd? Yes you can use the MSG powder but wouldn't it be cool if you could reach the same result by using a certain the fruit/vegetable/fish etc. than to "rely on the help of a lab"?

Also: I am not a hippy, I eat frozen pizza and takeaway and stuff just like the next man. I am just curious why my reasoning seems so at odds with everybody else. I am pretty sure it has to do with the way Germans cook, though. I think a lot of people here generally have a high "aversion" against hormones, additives and other "artificial ingredients".

because you're making an arbitrary distinction about ~chemicals~ that smacks of pseudoscience. MSG has been around since roman times, if there were any data to be had on it's toxicity, it would have been nailed down and thoroughly dissected by this point.

e: also, you're making a very lame argument with the comparison to yogurt, yogurt is another example of something that wouldn't exist without human intervention, just like MSG.

Elizabethan Error fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Apr 19, 2017

# ¿ Apr 19, 2017 23:09

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

sterster posted:

Question: Can I puddle this brisket I purchased in the sealed plastic that it came in from the 'factory/butcher.' It seems thick enough but, I'm kinda worried about it either breaking down after 12 hours or possibly effecting the taste by leaking in some plasticky flavor. I suppose I could cut it down into a couple of gallon size bags. Last resort would be to purchase a vacuum. Thoughts, suggestions?

yes, though any labels still attached will not survive the cook intact.

# ¿ Apr 20, 2017 18:09

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

Spook posted:

Concern is that for a long period, high heat, contact with food, then the plastic leaches BPA like stuff into the food. On top of the container in the microwave, or a few minutes of poaching is less significant than 60 to 90 minutes at 172+.

most plastic wrap doesn't have BPA present, stop with the wives tales tia

# ¿ Apr 24, 2017 22:04

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

Steve Yun posted:

Wellllllll

Please note that Spook didn't say BPA was in plastic wrap, Spook says "BPA like" which is probably in reference to DEHA, which is not an endocrine disruptor according to sources that aren't wingnut conspiracy theory websites, but may or may not be a contributor to cancer, research being inconclusive or inadequate on this.

it's more psuedoscience handwaving. and DEHA is only present in PVC wraps, but isn't in LDPE or PVDC wrapping

# ¿ Apr 24, 2017 22:49

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

5436 posted:

I did the st louis ribs in the sous vide and while they taste good they don't really stand up to bbq. They don't have the bark that ribs get in the smoker. They are very juicy but are missing some flavor from being smoked/bbqed.

you won't get a bark/smoke ring with sous vide(because it's not a smoker) so you won't get the same thing as from a smoker.

# ¿ May 1, 2017 23:01

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

5436 posted:

Yea I figured but the contrast is stark. The guides all act like its nearly the same thing. I don't think it's close. The ribs aren't bad by any means but it's not the same as BBQ. I think it worked well for pulled pork since theres very little surface area compared to the amount of meat. I think I'll stick to fish/pork/beef instead of trying to recreate bbq.

well they aren't the same thing, but that's because of the difference in cooking techniques(hot and semimoist vs warm and no moisture loss). your expectation of having a bark/smoky flavour on par with a piece of meat that's been sitting in smoke for =>4 hours isn't realistic.

# ¿ May 1, 2017 23:12

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

CrazyLittle posted:

ahem
https://www.chefsteps.com/activities/smokerless-smoked-ribs-incredible-barbecue-no-smoker-required

cool link, where's the smoke ring / bark on these ribs?

# ¿ May 9, 2017 23:16

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

CrazyLittle posted:

With the ribs the meat is cured through, which is why the rib meat is pinkish-red color instead of your typical sous vide grey. If you want a clear differentiated ring, take a look at the chefsteps brisket that's also linked from the ribs recipe.

I did, there isn't a 'ring', nor is there bark. sorry you've never had real barbeque and can't tell the difference.

# ¿ May 11, 2017 19:18

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

Phanatic posted:

Add salt and pepper, 140F for an hour, wrap in prosciutto and pan-sear.

FTFY

# ¿ May 22, 2017 23:08

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

2 hours is on the long side for breast meat, especially if you're going to shred it. is thigh meat not available?

# ¿ Jun 8, 2017 21:52

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

Norns posted:

gently caress you too buddy. Boiling a rib eye and using sous vide for a thin cutlet aren't even remotely the same.

so what's your recipe for sous vide pizza? since you're going full bore sous-vide hipster

# ¿ Jun 9, 2017 17:43

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# ¿ Apr 26, 2024 02:05

Elizabethan Error: May 18, 2006

Norns posted:

I was using hyperbole after being called a loving moron twice basically.

It's okay I really do understand a loving scallop is better just seared guys. You don't need to tell me to gently caress off and shove sous vide pizza up my rear end anymore.

don't defend pointless/wasteful methods just because everything looks like a nail

# ¿ Jun 9, 2017 20:17

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