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I am really interested in how peoples' attitude towards the show will change as a new generation of viewers watch it all in one go instead of spaced out like it has been for most of us. Almost every element involved in the finale of the show was only introduced that season, and without all that time between seasons to help ease the transition from 3 seasons of Gus Fring to just over half a season of Todd and Lydia more palatable it might be a little jarring. It's also going to make the arguments of consistency a little tougher, since in retrospect there are plenty of disparate elements in the show (the plane crash, the "badass dudez walking away from explosions  " assassins, hiding Brock's poisoning from the audience, ditching flash-forwards for two seasons after they were so integral to the show's beginning and ending) that are only going to stand out more when the show is consumed in one huge chunk.But whatever. The Shield has aged way worse on just about every level and people still put it in the upper-tier of television, so I'm pretty confident that Breaking Bad will remain in the god-tier of television for a long time to come.
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Oct 7, 2013 06:44
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freebooter posted:It was still an absolutely amazing piece of television and I enjoyed season five a lot. I just think those two flashforwards were a bad move. I agree 100%
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Oct 7, 2013 06:46
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I think the show itself changes as much as Walter White. The inconsistency feels organic to me. Todd, Lydia, and the Nazis don't seem like random bad guys injected into the last season for the sake of a bad guy, despite having only the one season to be introduced and develop. As well, the flash forwards in season five felt more like a call back to the first two seasons more then "bringing them back" per say. More a way of symbolizing it's the last season by bringing a crucial early element back.
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Oct 7, 2013 06:55
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Jack Skeleton posted:Breaking Bad's Southwestern setting strikes a perfect chord with me. I'm really glad they decided ABQ instead of Riverside, Ca. The city and setting of wide open skies works so loving well with the show. Seeing those montages with wide skies, sometimes with clouds, other times without for miles and miles around really helped the show and ABQ became a character in it. Yeah, I really can't imagine it taking place anywhere other than the American south-west. Something about just having a big city surrounded on all sides by trackless desert (not to mention the proximity of Mexico and the cartels). I'm Australian and often lamented during Breaking Bad's that Australian TV is formulaic drivel and why couldn't we come up with Breaking Bad etc. (The one thing Australia can, theoretically, do as well as the United States is a Western.) And the first problem that occurred to me was that Australia doesn't have any cities near the desert. I mean, why does Albuquerque even exist?
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Oct 7, 2013 07:48
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Now that it's done the show feels mostly like lots of tension supported by even more hype. The show kinda dragged on over long periods when it couldn't deliver these things (Season 5A in particular), and the characters don't feel anywhere near as real or relatable to me as pretty much every single character in The Wire. That said, I've had the same problems with other stories before until I later realized that they were masterpieces based on just the writing alone. But I just don't get the supposed greatness and philosophical complexity of Breaking Bad's story, and it doesn't help that on the surface the last episode seems like it was written as a checklist to please the maximum amount of viewers possible. Mercrom fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Oct 7, 2013 |
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Oct 7, 2013 07:50
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Aaaaaand just when I thought I'd finally finish reading a BB thread  Farewell, Breaking Bad. You were a masterwork, and even gone, you're... wait! You're not gone! Now I get to rewatch you! And catch more details! And point out foreshadowing! And I have more features and commentaries to listen to! Woo-hoo! 
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Oct 7, 2013 07:54
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Mercrom posted:That said, I've had the same problems with other stories before until I later realized that were masterpieces based on just the writing alone. But I just don't get the supposed greatness and philosophical complexity of Breaking Bad's story, and it doesn't help that on the surface the last episode seems like it was written as a checklist to please the maximum amount of viewers possible. It also closed nearly all of the unanswered questions, to the point that the remainder are basically trivia (why did Gus leave Chile and stuff like that.) I suppose that will make the show more difficult to discuss. It's not like the show left a lot of unanswered questions (Lost) or was especially atrocious (Battlestar Galactica) or had its fandom die out in the final season so when the finale came, nobody cared (Burn Notice.)
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Oct 7, 2013 08:01
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Mercrom posted:Now that it's done the show feels mostly like lots of tension supported by even more hype. The show kinda dragged on over long periods when it couldn't deliver these things (Season 5A in particular), and the characters don't feel anywhere near as real or relatable to me as pretty much every single character in The Wire. I don't think the show was ever intended to be strong for philosophical complexity. I always see it as a straight up modern Western and morality tale; the complexity comes where people argue the nature of Walt's transformation - ie. how much his pre-cancer suppressed personality traits enabled him to become Heisenberg, and how he actually changed when he did it. On another note, I feel it's still a common misperception the show was about people in general Breaking Bad, but I see it as the story of one man breaking bad; Skyler's collaboration or Marie's shoplifting or Hank's extralegal techniques don't really compare. Walt was always supposed to be the villain - now, I'll admit that the finale may have gone against this idea, but I still believe it. I agree that The Wire is far more complex and thus an overall stronger writing effort but its apples and oranges. I feel like people should keep in mind when they compare the two how unconventional The Wire was. And please elaborate on the "dragging" periods. The only season I count as "slow" was the Walt-Gus war in season 4 but that's pretty much the only way it could have gone. The closest thing to a weak - not bad - stretch of episodes, IMO, is the period from the plane crash to the Cousins' death (when the writers made the fateful, on the fly, brilliant decision to have Gus replace the Cousins.)
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Oct 7, 2013 08:08
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monster on a stick posted:It also closed nearly all of the unanswered questions, to the point that the remainder are basically trivia (why did Gus leave Chile and stuff like that.) I suppose that will make the show more difficult to discuss. It's not like the show left a lot of unanswered questions (Lost) or was especially atrocious (Battlestar Galactica) or had its fandom die out in the final season so when the finale came, nobody cared (Burn Notice.) I don't have a problem with them tying all the loose ends (which isn't really true anyway; I feel there's a satisfying bit of ambiguity to Jesse and the White family's endings) . The Wire had the same sort of ending and it was perfect. To me, it's more a question of whether those ends were tied in a thematically consistent way - I still find Walt's plans succeeding without any final consequences perhaps slightly inconsistent with the leadup to the finale. In other words, I cheered when Walt killed all the Nazis perfectly, but the only direct consequence of it being his death was not what I expected. That said, I consider it a minor thing; the ending didn't diminish my overall feelings on the show up to that point, but it didn't really enhance them either.
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Oct 7, 2013 08:15
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cletepurcel posted:And please elaborate on the "dragging" periods. The only season I count as "slow" was the Walt-Gus war in season 4 but that's pretty much the only way it could have gone. The closest thing to a weak - not bad - stretch of episodes, IMO, is the period from the plane crash to the Cousins' death (when the writers made the fateful, on the fly, brilliant decision to have Gus replace the Cousins.)
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Oct 7, 2013 08:31
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Mercrom posted:Season 5A was more about Walter getting himself into trouble again, as opposed to already being in trouble. It probably wouldn't have matter either way though since he wasn't relatable anymore. The suspense of season 4 wasn't there for me at all. The entire point of the series is that Walt is supposed to gradually become less "relatable" as the seasons progress though. I agree that 5A is probably the least compelling one - it's basically about Walt getting drunk with power and finally admitting to himself it's been a selfish pursuit all along (though I rank "Dead Freight", Say My Name and Gliding Over All as some of the best episodes of the series.) I think if I had to rank the seasons it would probably go 3, 5B, 2, 4, 5A, and 1.
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Oct 7, 2013 08:46
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IIRC Gus replaced the Cousins as the villains in s3 because they had to duck out early due to other contracts or something. It wasn't what Gilligan wanted at all, even though it turned out amazing. I loving hated the Cousins from day one, when they walked away from an explosion. They just never jibed with the show at all and I'd prefer to pretend they never existed (with the exception of Hank killing both of them which was loving amazing. Me and my housemate were sitting there watching it literally on the edge of our seats, grasping our hands together and shouting at the TV. Grasping hands in a cool semi-handshake kind of way, mind you, not a gay way.) Anyway, I think that's why s4 dragged in the middle? Because a lot of the end of s3 was actually meant to be in s4. I don't really understand someone who thinks s5 dragged while s4 was fine. The same housemate I was getting all gay and shouty with - somebody that invested in the show - stopped watching in the middle of s4 because he was bored with it.
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Oct 7, 2013 09:00
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Gilligan claims the Cousins were written out because they figured the Cousins were not the type to wait around 13 episodes to take their shot at Walt, they would want vengeance immediately. The real reason is probably something like contractual issues or whatever. I prefer to think they just realized the Cousins were too corny to work as full-season villains. Whatever the case, it worked wonders in switching to Gus, and the Cousins' deaths kick off the Gus vs. Cartel arc. That and the One Minute episode more than compensate for how over the top they are, IMO. On another note, to anyone interested in the production details and trivia of the show, I recommend the interactive ebook "Breaking Bad Alchemy", available on the iBooks store. It's got tons of cool details in there, like a definitive explanation of the famous "color code", Gilligan explaining where he got certain ideas, how they made Gus' blown-up face, etc.
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Oct 7, 2013 09:17
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spacing in vienna posted:With Walter White now being Walter Blanco, they can't keep the Walt Whitman initials as a way of Hank finding out. I'd be curious how they tweak that; is there a famous Mexican poet with initials WB?
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Oct 7, 2013 10:43
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Gale does seem like the type who'd be all over classic cartoons.
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Oct 7, 2013 11:56
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Maybe Colombian Gale is really into Wernher von Braun. It would mesh nicely if he also has an interest in Peter Schilling and "Major Tom".
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Oct 7, 2013 12:25
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Am I the only one that wants to see a telemovie with Badger and Skinny Pete on the hunt for Heisenbergs buried treasure?
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Oct 7, 2013 14:16
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cletepurcel posted:I don't have a problem with them tying all the loose ends (which isn't really true anyway; I feel there's a satisfying bit of ambiguity to Jesse and the White family's endings) . The Wire had the same sort of ending and it was perfect. To me, it's more a question of whether those ends were tied in a thematically consistent way - I still find Walt's plans succeeding without any final consequences perhaps slightly inconsistent with the leadup to the finale. In other words, I cheered when Walt killed all the Nazis perfectly, but the only direct consequence of it being his death was not what I expected. That said, I consider it a minor thing; the ending didn't diminish my overall feelings on the show up to that point, but it didn't really enhance them either. I agree with you about the end results of Walt's plans - regardless of the first post in this thread. Jesse is the only person left who was directly involved with Walt's drug empire, and the DEA will want someone put in jail. I don't think Skyler will get off quite as easy as Walt thinks she will. Flynn will figure out where the money came from and not want anything to do with it. But all that is speculation more than anything else, since the timeline of the show ends when Walt dies.
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Oct 7, 2013 15:11
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Saul was pretty clear in Granite State that if Walt is found the heat will be off Skyler, plus he gave her the co-ordinates for Hank's grave as a bargaining chip. The blue meth is attributed to Heisenberg, so with Heisenberg dead(and supplies of his meth drying up right after) that case is closed, although if Jesse left prints in the Nazi meth lab that'll probably have the police interested in finding him. Still, when he woke up from his woodworking fantasy he was wearing gloves, so if he was consistent he may be in the clear there.
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Oct 7, 2013 15:57
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Agree with everyone here regarding the quality of BB, but the finale still doesn't sit quite perfectly with me. I mean as a propulsive exciting piece of TV its pretty much perfect, but it slips away from being the definitive series ending punctuation point that, say, The Shield managed to hit. And I think its to do with themes, really. I've written about this before (including in my reviews on Friday Night Death Slot!), BB to me has always been an Old Testament morality play /Greek tragedy. As in, the flaws of the protagonist leads to his fall. But the last ep had Walt overcoming, pretty much, everything. He beat the bad guys, humbled his former partners, reconciled with his wife, and oh yeah set up a million dollar trust fund for his kid. He died knowing that his bad life led to him winning, at least partly. He died on his own terms. Does that ring right for other people? You can maybe see him realizing his flaws led to some redemption at the end, but that doesn't fit with what up to now has been a rigorous exploration of the consequences of evil acts. Its a bit too New Testament-y to fit in with the show's tone. Walt's fatal flaw was his patriachal pride, and he died with his legend still intact and stronger than ever. I honestly think Ozymandias was the natural end-point of the series, and it would have been better off if it had actually ended there.
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Oct 7, 2013 16:39
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Shageletic posted:Agree with everyone here regarding the quality of BB, but the finale still doesn't sit quite perfectly with me. I mean as a propulsive exciting piece of TV its pretty much perfect, but it slips away from being the definitive series ending punctuation point that, say, The Shield managed to hit. And I think its to do with themes, really. I think that the ending worked because it was only "winning" by the standards of Heisenberg. Walt's family hates him and has been shamed in the public eye; Walt is remembered as a terrible human being who collaborated with Nazis to sell crystal meth; Grey Matter gets viewed as a benevolent corporation fixing Walt's mistakes. By the standards of 50-year old Walter White, Walt lost. However, Walt also got public and private recognition as the greatest and smartest badass to have ever lived, and he demonstrated that nobody can cross Heisenberg and escape unscathed. By Heisenberg standards, he won. I always viewed the show as an examination of a pretty common emotional urge - "screw these assholes keeping me down from showing how great I can be, I'm going to be the world's greatest badass and not take poo poo from anyone and they're all going to learn how awesome I am when I'm bossing them around and calling the shots and passing around money to the people I like" - and spending 50+ hours demonstrating why that should never ever be anyone's top priority. The final episode ended with Walt totally succeeding in achieving that goal and fulfilling that urge, at the cost of literally everything else in his entire life.
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Oct 7, 2013 16:47
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hiddenmovement posted:Am I the only one that wants to see a telemovie with Badger and Skinny Pete on the hunt for Heisenbergs buried treasure? Only if it ends with the ghost of Combo telling them, "The treasure you seek has been within you all along, yo!"
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Oct 7, 2013 16:59
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Shageletic posted:Agree with everyone here regarding the quality of BB, but the finale still doesn't sit quite perfectly with me. I mean as a propulsive exciting piece of TV its pretty much perfect, but it slips away from being the definitive series ending punctuation point that, say, The Shield managed to hit. And I think its to do with themes, really. Walt spent 5 seasons trying to achieve his personal goal, manipulating everyone around him to get there. That he fulfilled his own selfish desires makes perfect sense. The tragedy is that his prideful actions resulted in the destruction of everyone around him that he claimed (to others, and to himself) to care about. He got what he wanted, at great cost to those around him - that's a theme in morality plays as old as dirt.
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Oct 7, 2013 17:26
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hiddenmovement posted:Am I the only one that wants to see a telemovie with Badger and Skinny Pete on the hunt for Heisenbergs buried treasure? I really hope Badger and Skinny Pete show up on Better call Saul, at least occasionally. I loved their  'd out conversations about star trek fan scripts.
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Oct 7, 2013 17:31
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monster on a stick posted:I agree with you about the end results of Walt's plans - regardless of the first post in this thread. Jesse is the only person left who was directly involved with Walt's drug empire, and the DEA will want someone put in jail. I don't think Skyler will get off quite as easy as Walt thinks she will. Flynn will figure out where the money came from and not want anything to do with it. But all that is speculation more than anything else, since the timeline of the show ends when Walt dies. If he does get caught, does Jesse know enough to connect Madrigal Electromotive to the Czech drug ring? With Lydia dead, this might be impossible, actually.
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Oct 7, 2013 17:58
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Curtis of Nigeria posted:If he does get caught, does Jesse know enough to connect Madrigal Electromotive to the Czech drug ring? With Lydia dead, this might be impossible, actually. He knows Lydia. I think that would be enough to get DEA to investigate Madrigal again and find out about the Czechs.
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Oct 7, 2013 18:02
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Doesn't BB show Badger and Saul meeting for the first time? Doesn't that preclude Badger from a Saul prequel?
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Oct 7, 2013 18:05
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I also disliked how the show ended with Walt totally making up for everything he did wrong. It was particularly jarring when he made it so that Hank was alive again and his wife wasn't a pariah because of being married to a drug lord any more.
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Oct 7, 2013 18:26
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The Tao Jones posted:Only if it ends with the ghost of Combo telling them, "The treasure you seek has been within you all along, yo!" But it turns out the real treasure is at the compound, now haunted by the vengeful ghosts of Jack, Todd, and the other Nazis.
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Oct 7, 2013 18:48
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For me, what made the show was Walt being a piece of poo poo. And the further you get into the show, you find, "No, you don't get it, this guy is a real piece of poo poo." But then the ending is basically, "Oh hes sad now and is all alone, now hes going to make everything right, all his plans worked perfectly, he had a change of heart and saved Jesse, LOOK AT JESSE KILL TODD YES, aw hes nostalgic for cooking, and now he dies lets play a song for Walt yay Walt  "I just felt like it was a huge copout.
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Oct 7, 2013 18:54
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The entire show before that was you seeing what a huge piece of poo poo Walt was. That was Walt seeing what a huge piece of poo poo he was. And in the end it didn't excuse or apologize for his behavior, and he certainly didn't 'fix' anything. His family's life is still hosed forever, Jesse has still been brutally tortured, Hank and Drew Sharpe and all the rest are still gone, his legacy is still one of a hosed up neo-nazi [Because there isn't going to be anyone around to say "Listen, he just worked WITH white supremacists, it's not like he really believed what they were saying"] that died in a meth lab shoot out. Walt didn't win. He just made things slightly less miserable than they were directly before he decided to give himself up to the police.
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Oct 7, 2013 19:00
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Kaiju Cage Match posted:But it turns out the real treasure is at the compound, now haunted by the vengeful ghosts of Jack, Todd, and the other Nazis. Will Ghost Todd and Ghost Lydia be making ghost babies in this scenario?
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Oct 7, 2013 19:01
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Shageletic posted:He died on his own terms. But that was an underlying motivation the whole series. He was not going to die by the hand of someone else, or leave his family poor and let the cancer kill him. He reached his goal: to die on his own terms. Yeah, he's a piece of poo poo but he did it his way. That's the point, he's going to achieve his goals no matter what. No matter who has to die or who gets hurt, no one will stop Walt.
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Oct 7, 2013 19:06
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Boogaleeboo posted:The entire show before that was you seeing what a huge piece of poo poo Walt was. That was Walt seeing what a huge piece of poo poo he was. And in the end it didn't excuse or apologize for his behavior, and he certainly didn't 'fix' anything. His family's life is still hosed forever, Jesse has still been brutally tortured, Hank and Drew Sharpe and all the rest are still gone, his legacy is still one of a hosed up neo-nazi [Because there isn't going to be anyone around to say "Listen, he just worked WITH white supremacists, it's not like he really believed what they were saying"] that died in a meth lab shoot out. I honestly thought he was going to shoot up the school he used to teach at with the M60 and thats why he was going back to town (before poisoning Jesse with the Ricin for loving him over), like somebody that just doesn't give a gently caress anymore and is angry as hell, murder suicide. I really thought that was the direction they were going.
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Oct 7, 2013 19:08
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2house2fly posted:Saul was pretty clear in Granite State that if Walt is found the heat will be off Skyler, plus he gave her the co-ordinates for Hank's grave as a bargaining chip. The blue meth is attributed to Heisenberg, so with Heisenberg dead(and supplies of his meth drying up right after) that case is closed, although if Jesse left prints in the Nazi meth lab that'll probably have the police interested in finding him. Still, when he woke up from his woodworking fantasy he was wearing gloves, so if he was consistent he may be in the clear there. Saul said if Walt turned himself in the heat would be off Skyler. He didn't, the cops found him dead. The DEA is still going to want to stick someone in jail. Skyler having co-ordinates for Hank's grave is going to be suspicious - in "Ozymandias" she and Walt play the game that she doesn't know anything including that Hank is dead, now she has the coordinates for his body but still was completely innocent? Plus Marie will be pissed if she finds out Skyler was using it as a bargaining chip. I know what Walt was trying to do, I just don't think it will work out like he thinks it will. Also I wonder what the Aryan Brotherhood members still in prison (the ones that executed the hit) are going to think about all of this.
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Oct 7, 2013 19:28
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AASman posted:I honestly thought he was going to shoot up the school he used to teach at with the M60 and thats why he was going back to town (before poisoning Jesse with the Ricin for loving him over), like somebody that just doesn't give a gently caress anymore and is angry as hell, murder suicide. I really thought that was the direction they were going. In the end, he was human enough to appreciate that he "got what he deserved".
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Oct 7, 2013 19:32
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monster on a stick posted:Saul said if Walt turned himself in the heat would be off Skyler. He didn't, the cops found him dead. The DEA is still going to want to stick someone in jail. He told her to call the cops after he left and tell them that he broke in and left it.
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Oct 7, 2013 19:35
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Boogaleeboo posted:Walt didn't win. He just made things slightly less miserable than they were directly before he decided to give himself up to the police. I totally agree. I think some people are looking at the finale like it exists in a vacuum and didn't come right after two of the most soul crushing episodes of the series. If you feel like everything worked out the way Walt wanted it to in the end then I would direct your attention to the second to last episode in which Flynn tells Walt to gently caress off and die. The look on Walt's face during that conversation says it all, he's finally realizing that money or no money his family was destroyed by what he's done. Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Oct 7, 2013 |
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Oct 7, 2013 19:36
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I get the interpretation that Walt "won" but only from his perspective (and maybe not even that). I think that's what the intent was. That $9 million might still make it to Flynn but the Whites would trade it in an instant to have pre-Heisenberg Walt and Hank back. They will still always hate him. I just was surprised they felt the need for that. Gilligan said in the podcast that they felt, consistently through the writing process that the ending had to involve Walt successfully routing money to his family after all in order to satisfy some sort of viewer expectation. Here, I kind of disagree - I feel like it was one victory too many for Walt; if they weren't going to kill off the White family I felt they were heading towards him leaving them in unambiguous complete ruin and being unable to do anything about it. That, to me, would have been the more powerful ending. Basically what I'm saying is that the money thing was my biggest sticking point, but that I understand the intent behind it. I also prefer to imagine that Skyler or Flynn figures out the $9M trust was Walt's doing, or else it raises flags with the IRS or something. But I still get that even though Walt had a more "redemptive" ending than I thought possible, he didn't redeem himself in any significant way.
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Oct 7, 2013 19:44
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socialsecurity posted:He told her to call the cops after he left and tell them that he broke in and left it. I understand that BB never operated under realistic legal premises but I'm still not sure I buy the coordinates of Hank's body getting Skyler off the hook. The whole point of her trial was how much she collaborated with Walt, and it was already known she had nothing to do with Hank's death, at least.
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Oct 7, 2013 19:47
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