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As far as legacy goes, I think you can make a solid case for Breaking Bad as the #2 drama of all time behind The Wire (I know at least one critic - Tim Goodman - already has, and I agree with him.) I think the general argument will go, The Wire is the best show ever because no other show was as ambitious, and successful in its ambition. However, as much as I love The Wire, BB beat it - and many other of the great dramas - cleanly on two important counts - consistency (it's difficult to name, off the top of my head, weak episodes of Breaking Bad, and there were no prolonged stretches of weakness) and cinematography. Probably acting too, come to think of it. Ultimately it's an utterly meaningless debate but I like to have it anyway.
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Oct 7, 2013 05:22
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Mercrom posted:Now that it's done the show feels mostly like lots of tension supported by even more hype. The show kinda dragged on over long periods when it couldn't deliver these things (Season 5A in particular), and the characters don't feel anywhere near as real or relatable to me as pretty much every single character in The Wire. I don't think the show was ever intended to be strong for philosophical complexity. I always see it as a straight up modern Western and morality tale; the complexity comes where people argue the nature of Walt's transformation - ie. how much his pre-cancer suppressed personality traits enabled him to become Heisenberg, and how he actually changed when he did it. On another note, I feel it's still a common misperception the show was about people in general Breaking Bad, but I see it as the story of one man breaking bad; Skyler's collaboration or Marie's shoplifting or Hank's extralegal techniques don't really compare. Walt was always supposed to be the villain - now, I'll admit that the finale may have gone against this idea, but I still believe it. I agree that The Wire is far more complex and thus an overall stronger writing effort but its apples and oranges. I feel like people should keep in mind when they compare the two how unconventional The Wire was. And please elaborate on the "dragging" periods. The only season I count as "slow" was the Walt-Gus war in season 4 but that's pretty much the only way it could have gone. The closest thing to a weak - not bad - stretch of episodes, IMO, is the period from the plane crash to the Cousins' death (when the writers made the fateful, on the fly, brilliant decision to have Gus replace the Cousins.)
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Oct 7, 2013 08:08
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monster on a stick posted:It also closed nearly all of the unanswered questions, to the point that the remainder are basically trivia (why did Gus leave Chile and stuff like that.) I suppose that will make the show more difficult to discuss. It's not like the show left a lot of unanswered questions (Lost) or was especially atrocious (Battlestar Galactica) or had its fandom die out in the final season so when the finale came, nobody cared (Burn Notice.) I don't have a problem with them tying all the loose ends (which isn't really true anyway; I feel there's a satisfying bit of ambiguity to Jesse and the White family's endings) . The Wire had the same sort of ending and it was perfect. To me, it's more a question of whether those ends were tied in a thematically consistent way - I still find Walt's plans succeeding without any final consequences perhaps slightly inconsistent with the leadup to the finale. In other words, I cheered when Walt killed all the Nazis perfectly, but the only direct consequence of it being his death was not what I expected. That said, I consider it a minor thing; the ending didn't diminish my overall feelings on the show up to that point, but it didn't really enhance them either.
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Oct 7, 2013 08:15
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Mercrom posted:Season 5A was more about Walter getting himself into trouble again, as opposed to already being in trouble. It probably wouldn't have matter either way though since he wasn't relatable anymore. The suspense of season 4 wasn't there for me at all. The entire point of the series is that Walt is supposed to gradually become less "relatable" as the seasons progress though. I agree that 5A is probably the least compelling one - it's basically about Walt getting drunk with power and finally admitting to himself it's been a selfish pursuit all along (though I rank "Dead Freight", Say My Name and Gliding Over All as some of the best episodes of the series.) I think if I had to rank the seasons it would probably go 3, 5B, 2, 4, 5A, and 1.
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Oct 7, 2013 08:46
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Gilligan claims the Cousins were written out because they figured the Cousins were not the type to wait around 13 episodes to take their shot at Walt, they would want vengeance immediately. The real reason is probably something like contractual issues or whatever. I prefer to think they just realized the Cousins were too corny to work as full-season villains. Whatever the case, it worked wonders in switching to Gus, and the Cousins' deaths kick off the Gus vs. Cartel arc. That and the One Minute episode more than compensate for how over the top they are, IMO. On another note, to anyone interested in the production details and trivia of the show, I recommend the interactive ebook "Breaking Bad Alchemy", available on the iBooks store. It's got tons of cool details in there, like a definitive explanation of the famous "color code", Gilligan explaining where he got certain ideas, how they made Gus' blown-up face, etc.
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Oct 7, 2013 09:17
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I get the interpretation that Walt "won" but only from his perspective (and maybe not even that). I think that's what the intent was. That $9 million might still make it to Flynn but the Whites would trade it in an instant to have pre-Heisenberg Walt and Hank back. They will still always hate him. I just was surprised they felt the need for that. Gilligan said in the podcast that they felt, consistently through the writing process that the ending had to involve Walt successfully routing money to his family after all in order to satisfy some sort of viewer expectation. Here, I kind of disagree - I feel like it was one victory too many for Walt; if they weren't going to kill off the White family I felt they were heading towards him leaving them in unambiguous complete ruin and being unable to do anything about it. That, to me, would have been the more powerful ending. Basically what I'm saying is that the money thing was my biggest sticking point, but that I understand the intent behind it. I also prefer to imagine that Skyler or Flynn figures out the $9M trust was Walt's doing, or else it raises flags with the IRS or something. But I still get that even though Walt had a more "redemptive" ending than I thought possible, he didn't redeem himself in any significant way.
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Oct 7, 2013 19:44
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socialsecurity posted:He told her to call the cops after he left and tell them that he broke in and left it. I understand that BB never operated under realistic legal premises but I'm still not sure I buy the coordinates of Hank's body getting Skyler off the hook. The whole point of her trial was how much she collaborated with Walt, and it was already known she had nothing to do with Hank's death, at least.
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Oct 7, 2013 19:47
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Burt Buckle posted:When the twins are crawling to that chapel in season 3, they put a drawing of Heisenberg on the wall. How did they know what Heisenberg looked like before they even got his identity from the old wheelchair guy? What I still don't get is how that drawing ended up in Hank's evidence collection.
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Oct 8, 2013 02:29
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Civilized Fishbot posted:There's validity in remaking it, in that it would be cool to watch the show take some of the other directions which were strongly considered such as I think the torture machine and Jesse dying in season 1 were scrapped pretty early. Though there's been conflicting stories on the latter - sometimes the story goes that Gilligan decided against it when he saw how good Aaron Paul was in the early episodes, while others claim the writers' strike was what saved Jesse. I've said this before, but what makes Breaking Bad remarkable is how much of a collaborative effort it was. Gilligan was never an authoritarian, OCD rear end in a top hat other show runners (most notably Chase and Weiner) were, he always was open to other ideas and interpretations. He's even joked about how many of his ideas (like the aforementioned torture machine) were so awful in retrospect.
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Oct 8, 2013 02:33
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The Job Creators posted:Is there somewhere I can read about the torture machine? This is the first I've heard of it. Gilligan talked about it on the last podcast. It would have come after Jesse's death at the hands of Tuco (or his story standin at that point) who originally was going to be a character closer to Gus on the badass scale. In response Walt was going to capture the dude, rig up a tripwire that would be attached to a gun that would shoot him, and continually torture him to try and get the guy to trip the wire and kill himself. Eventually, Walt Jr would stumble onto the guy and try to save him, but when the tortured guy figured out it was Walt's son he would activate the tripwire, killing both of them.
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Oct 8, 2013 03:00
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I feel having a literal Western flashback would have cheapened the show's great modern Western element. Still, probably would have worked better than the plane crash.
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Oct 8, 2013 03:50
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Fuligin posted:Are people not fans of the plane crash? It's definitely an unrealistic event but I thought it worked fine in context, and that the episode lead-ins were appropriately surreal and disturbing. It was a fine if blunt way of getting across the message that whatever Walt's self delusions, producing gobs of meth really does effect the world outside of him in a profoundly horrible way (shocking!). It's generally unpopular, but to be honest I'm not sure how I feel. To me, it was the moment where I really realized that you're not supposed to root for Walt, particularly when I read Gilligan's interview on how he wanted to "rain down judgment" on Walt. I think in the larger context of the series, it doesn't quite work because most of the darkness of Walt's journey comes via his direct actions, and natural consequences from those actions. The butterfly-effect stuff kind of undermines it. When I think of the end of season 2, I think of Jane, Walt's first real cold-blooded killing, not the plane crash it caused. On the other hand, it works well as the first time it's made clear the difference between Jesse and Walt - Jesse recognizes he's the "bad guy" but Walt just rationalizes and rationalizes. On the other hand, the plane crash creates yet another window for Walt to stop cooking meth - he made a good chunk of change off the first Gus deal and went on a guilt trip after the crash, but didn't start to cook again until he found out Jesse was, and then Gus showed him the superlab and won him over with the "A man provides" thing. I like that Walt had four (by my count) major opportunities where he could have made a clean break from the drug business but didn't, because he just loved doing it. Also his speech in the gym is hilarious.
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Oct 8, 2013 05:29
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Blazing Ownager posted:Why the hell do people keep ranking season 1 low and saying it "had to find it's footing?" I feel like I didn't adequately explain my "rankings". I agree with you, I was just trying to engage that guy's argument about the show "dragging" (which, as you point out, it never did.) The main reason season 1 is ranked lowest is because its an incomplete season due to the writers' strike, but you're right, there are remarkably few, if any, growing pains that most shows experience in season 1. The only thing I felt they should have left there was Marie's shoplifting plot. Best season right now is a toss up for me between 3 and 5B but I think you may be right. grading essays nude fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Oct 8, 2013 |
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Oct 8, 2013 20:34
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Jack Skeleton posted:I could have sworn you had yellow filter when the cousins killed the illegals and torched the truck. So I would agree that it means "scary people" The "Alchemy" ebook goes into detail on this stuff, according to the production team, it's supposed to be Mexico. Though I can see it read the other way as well.
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Oct 10, 2013 06:05
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Doakes posted:Yeah, the way the second two episodes dealt with getting rid of the bodies and tying up the loose ends from the pilot that probably wouldn't even be mentioned in a lesser show really set the show apart. This was the thing that hooked me right away and where I knew I was dealing with an amazing show. It took some balls to even have Walt have to kill two people IMMEDIATELY after getting into cooking meth, I've always thought a lesser show would have waited a bit longer to make the stakes that high so soon. I've been doing my first rewatch the past month, currently in the middle of season 4. It occurred to me at the end of season 3 that literally the entirety of events from late S3 on can be traced back to Jesse meeting Andrea at the NA meeting, which is funny because Jesse selling meth in NA is a pretty forgettable subplot otherwise. If she doesn't tell him about her brother Tomas killing Combo, Jesse doesn't go after Gus' dealers, Walt doesn't intervene, the war with Gus doesn't happen, Walt doesn't become the kingpin upon Gus' death, etc. Hell, Hank might have found Leaves of Grass on the toilet but he wouldn't have known who Gale was, so. I'm literally just jumping in to this thread for the first time since the show ended but I'll offer my two cents on this crossword discussion. I don't see it as a sign that Walt was always manipulative. Some people have tried to analyze the scenes where he's just being a teacher or whatever for signs of Heisenberg but I don't see it that way. I think he had certain personality traits that predisposed him to become Heisenberg eventually, when they became heightened. For instance, when he is such an incredible rear end in a top hat about taking credit for "his" work and formula, or when he gets pissed off over less-than-expected profits (which happens from the early episodes, and continues even when he starts the Vamonos Pest operation) you can tell that, had he stayed at Gray Matter he would have been a pretty terrifying CEO, but obviously he wouldn't have been melting people in barrels. Basically I think the dark side to his personality is more pride than anything else. I almost think manipulation was more a skill he learned than something he always had - during season 1-2, Skyler was suspicious pretty much the whole time. His manipulation of Jesse doesn't really start, in depth anyway, until season 4, and Jesse was never as smart as the other main characters. grading essays nude fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Jan 28, 2015 |
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Jan 28, 2015 22:54
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Remember, Gus never wanted to hire Walt at all, he was perfectly fine with Gale's 96% pure meth, but somehow Gale talked him into it. I think he only bought his meth to begin with because the lab wasn't open yet and had such enormous overhead that he needed to bank a little bit of drug money. Also, when Gus hires Walt, Mike finds his hospital records and the cancer is in remission, so he had no way of knowing if/when the cancer would come back. Of course, he could have just killed him at some point and told Gale he died of cancer (as was his plan in Full Measure) but it doesn't seem likely. He only was mad at Walt because of the two dealers, remember. (Well, he wasn't pleased with having to employ Jesse too, but still, there's no real tension until Half Measure.) Re: Gus' season 4 plan to just split Walt and Jesse apart then kill Walt, the two key things that happened were Jesse having a complete breakdown after killing Gale, and more importantly, Walt being unable to stop Hank's investigation. Actually, it's unclear on rewatch whether Gus even knew about Jesse turning his house into a 24/7 party with "actual hobos living there" until Walt told Saul about it. Jesse does that for 2 episodes, Walt tells Saul, next scene is Mike kicking all of Jesse's "guests" out and somehow recovering his money. I feel this is important to considering Gus' intentions when there are some things that were out of his control, that he seems to have reacted to. The Hank investigation also upped the pressure on Walt to kill Gus, because he knew it would make it more likely for Gus to kill him. On the other hand, Gus never knew about the ricin or how easily he could have been killed by it if Jesse had been able to follow through. Basically, I wonder if Walt would have been safe if Hank hadn't been in play. grading essays nude fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Jan 30, 2015 |
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Jan 30, 2015 01:20
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:I think one of the most important scenes in the whole show is when Hank is in fact out of play and then Walt goes "This genius of yours... maybe he's still out there." Absolutely. I like the buildup to it too, with Walt extremely agitated and drinking practically half the bottle of wine. And then Skyler just stares at him, completely horrified at what he's doing but unable to say anything. If Gus had known about that scene I think he would have just skipped the whole plot with Jesse and killed Walt right then and there. What an idiot. In season 4 also, when Skyler is making Walt memorize all the details of his gambling story, she warns that some "tiny mistake" or inconsistency could sink them in the end, which is exactly what ends up happening. I mean, come on, Walt, at least tear the page out that has Gale's writing on it.
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Jan 30, 2015 22:08
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CaptainHollywood posted:I can't help but feel there should have been a scene involved with Gale giving Walt the book. It just comes so out of left field- more so than the plane crash. Well, there was, sort of. In season 3, when Walt first meets Gale, Gale recites for him "When I Heard the Learn'd Astronomer." Later, we see Walt reading Leaves of Grass in his apartment. It's not actually said that he got the book from Gale, though. The book being significant is also foreshadowed a few times in season 5, first when Walt moves back in, finds it in his possessions and just goes "heh". I think in Gliding Over All, before Hank finds it, it's shown on the toilet while Walt takes a shower. I can't remember if there's another scene where they show it. I remember knowing exactly what was going to happen when Hank entered the bathroom, though, because of that shower scene earlier. I did wonder why the episode was called "Gliding Over All" but I'm glad I didn't google that phrase beforehand. Personally I think it was a brilliant way for Hank to find out, because there was that specific scene where he jokingly suggested Walt was the "W.W." in Gale's notebook. It also ties in to how incredibly arrogant and drunk with power Walt is throughout season 5, that he overlooked that tiny detail. grading essays nude fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Jan 30, 2015 |
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Jan 30, 2015 23:25
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