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Retro Futurist
Aug 8, 2007

Yesterday's Tomorrow,
Today!


Barry Convex posted:

that the general public wasn't aware of the existence of superhumans until Avengers, which makes little sense given events in Thor, Captain America, and (especially) The Incredible Hulk.

Thor and Hulk were gas explosions, most people figure Cap was just an actor. Pretty easy stuff for a top secret organization to disapear

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ToastyPotato
Jun 23, 2005

CONVICTED OF DISPLAYING HIS PEANUTS IN PUBLIC

Cap would have been top secret. Thor would have been a bit harder to explain, but Hulk should be impossible since the attack on the campus had eyewitness reports on the news and was followed by two big monster men fighting through out Harlem, which for non-New Yorkers is a heavily populated area of northern Manhattan. Also Iron Man was a public figure before Avengers, and he had a huge robot war in Queens (Iron Man 2).

Dan Didio
Apr 6, 2009

OMG!! WeareSOawesome!!



There's a pretty big difference between people knowing about Tony Stark's crazy suit shenanigans and the Hulk having been seen and the wider public knowing just how deep the rabbit hole goes and that a whole slew of superheroes and alternate, alien worlds exist.

notthegoatseguy
Sep 6, 2005
I'm a petty asshole



Dan Didio posted:

There's a pretty big difference between people knowing about Tony Stark's crazy suit shenanigans and the Hulk having been seen and the wider public knowing just how deep the rabbit hole goes and that a whole slew of superheroes and alternate, alien worlds exist.

Skye even says that SHIELD covered up the events of The Avengers film and swept it under the rug. She didn't say exactly what the public story is. But it clearly isn't "aliens and gods hosed a bunch of poo poo up and almost took over Earth"

Waterhaul
Nov 5, 2005


it was a nice post,
you shouldn't have signed it.





I just don't get how you cover up the end of Avengers.

Multiple! giant dragon monster things flew around New York out of a multi-mile long portal in the sky and the film ended with media footage of people showing survivors and footage of wreckage.

Retro Futurist
Aug 8, 2007

Yesterday's Tomorrow,
Today!


Waterhaul posted:

I just don't get how you cover up the end of Avengers.

Multiple! giant dragon monster things flew around New York out of a multi-mile long portal in the sky and the film ended with media footage of people showing survivors and footage of wreckage.



They use sense and nerve gases to induce hallucinations!

Medullah
Aug 13, 2003

FEAR MY SHARK ROCKET IT REALLY SUCKS AND BLOWS


Opopanax posted:



They use sense and nerve gases to induce hallucinations!

Weather balloons.

ToastyPotato
Jun 23, 2005

CONVICTED OF DISPLAYING HIS PEANUTS IN PUBLIC

Waterhaul posted:

I just don't get how you cover up the end of Avengers.

Multiple! giant dragon monster things flew around New York out of a multi-mile long portal in the sky and the film ended with media footage of people showing survivors and footage of wreckage.

Not only that, but there is a CNN clip of a congressman or senator talking about super powered vigilantes or some such thing during that montage, so that is official government acknowledgement of the event. If the show is really going to try to play off that everything has been covered up, that is some horrible bullshit.

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005






ToastyPotato posted:

Not only that, but there is a CNN clip of a congressman or senator talking about super powered vigilantes or some such thing during that montage, so that is official government acknowledgement of the event. If the show is really going to try to play off that everything has been covered up, that is some horrible bullshit.

There were Avengers action figures in a storefront in the first episode and talk between Maria Hill and Coulson of the world having changed after New York blew the lid on aliens from other dimensions tearing up Manhattan, I don't see how they could be going down that track. It seems more to me that they want to either cover things that haven't yet become public or put them on damage control, so people think that crazy movie-level events are rare spectacles and not close to becoming commonplace.

feedmyleg
Dec 25, 2004

EVERY FAIRY TALE NEEDS ITS HERO.

What is the context of the cover-up quote? It could just be that they're covering up the fact that they tried to, you know, nuke the city.

Also, I really want Coulson to turn out to be a Skrull who lost his memory after he got bonked on the head. I think that would single-handedly justify every poor decision they've made with that show.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



He's got a good chin for it.

Fred is on
Dec 24, 2007

Riders...
IN SPACE!


feedmyleg posted:

Also, I really want Coulson to turn out to be a Skrull who lost his memory after he got bonked on the head. I think that would single-handedly justify every poor decision they've made with that show.

They transplanted his brain into a Chitauri body because he knew a terrible secret, and it turns out they ARE shapeshifters.

Alien Rope Burn
Dec 4, 2004

I wanna be a saikyo HERO!


Well, they'd have to go pretty far to top the comics, which had A) New York transformed into a literal hell and B) it getting totally covered up and people just accepting it as a mass hallucination. So.

If I were to give a guess re: Coulson based on the comics, it could be "Life Model Decoy", but I have a feeling it's something more subtle.

feedmyleg
Dec 25, 2004

EVERY FAIRY TALE NEEDS ITS HERO.

Coulson is Mystique.

SirDan3k
Jan 6, 2001

Trust me, you are taking this a lot more seriously then I am.


Alien Rope Burn posted:

Well, they'd have to go pretty far to top the comics, which had A) New York transformed into a literal hell and B) it getting totally covered up and people just accepting it as a mass hallucination. So.

Eh, that's believable in the Marvel universe because heroes and villains are so common you can either buy that literal Hell came to earth or that guy with a fishbowl on his head that fights spider-man gassed the city.


As they are presenting it in SHEILD it feels like a stretch for people to just go "oh, okay" but more importantly it feels pointless, what does it change in the show if heroes are known about?

Teek
Aug 7, 2006

I can't wait to entertain you.


Not sure where you guys are getting that they're hiding big public things in the MCU now via the SHIELD show. As there really hasn't been anything hidden that happened in public (beyond SHIELD's fuckups like the nuke thing I would guess)? The alien invasion was a known event and the public is aware of it, in fact they're celebrating the Avengers for saving the world. Via last night's episode, there's apparently a move on SHIELDs part to suggest powered people be careful about exposing themselves, but they're not trying to make the public think the big Avengers' spectacles haven't happened.

ToastyPotato
Jun 23, 2005

CONVICTED OF DISPLAYING HIS PEANUTS IN PUBLIC

The most disappointing thing about the show is the fact that the show isn't the slightest bit interested in portraying a post alien invasion world. Shield doesn't seem to be operating much different than it was prior to Avengers. The Marvel elements almost seem grafted onto the show after the fact, as if Whedon had some similar idea in his back pocket and adapted it into the Marvel universe after he got the job on Avengers.

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

I been ballin' so damn hard I swear I think that I'm Coby


ToastyPotato posted:

The most disappointing thing about the show is the fact that the show isn't the slightest bit interested in portraying a post alien invasion world. Shield doesn't seem to be operating much different than it was prior to Avengers. The Marvel elements almost seem grafted onto the show after the fact, as if Whedon had some similar idea in his back pocket and adapted it into the Marvel universe after he got the job on Avengers.

Why would SHIELD change much. They are operating much more publicly(as in Everyone knows who SHIELD is, and they have free access to most countries in the world) They are still trying to keep the small scale stuff under wraps so it isn't known just how far off the rails the world is going. The Big stuff they can't hide but so long as people think it's an isolated incident people will eventually get back to their regularly scheduled ambivalence.

If When something Major comes up they still have to go beg the Avengers to do something about it.

greatn
Nov 15, 2006

by Lowtax


The show is absolutely not trying to play off that as covered up. It's opening statement is basically just saying "Before New York, all people knew about was a crazy millionaire in a robot suit and a weird government monster".

After New York, suddenly aliens and gods are all real. They aren't saying that incident was covered up, they're saying that incident uncovered everything else.

Snowglobe of Doom
Mar 30, 2012

Because if I tell you, you'll tell your friends, your friends are callin' me on the horn all the time, I gotta show up at shopping centers for openings and sign autographs and shit like that and it makes my life a *hell*. Okay? A living hell.


Fan of Britches

They prefer to cover up incidents whenever it's feasible, however. Coulson and Skye had a discussion along the lines of "Remember the public panic over the alien invasion of (some country)?" "No." "That's because we did our job."

The United States
Jul 18, 2004

Please grab the extinguisher


Melman v2

Dexo posted:

Why would SHIELD change much. They are operating much more publicly(as in Everyone knows who SHIELD is, and they have free access to most countries in the world) They are still trying to keep the small scale stuff under wraps so it isn't known just how far off the rails the world is going. The Big stuff they can't hide but so long as people think it's an isolated incident people will eventually get back to their regularly scheduled ambivalence.

If When something Major comes up they still have to go beg the Avengers to do something about it.
I could see a more militarized SHIELD that is openly focused on cultivating and harnessing superpowers as an obvious consequence of the alien invasion in Avengers. Maybe this is actually going on and we just haven't seen it yet, who knows. Maybe all this Centipede and messing with Extremis stuff isn't actually AIM, but yet another SHIELD division. Or maybe other parts of SHIELD aren't behind it but are working at cross purposes with the main cast, covertly assisting AIM/Hydra/whomever with these experiments and intending to swoop in and take any useful results.

In the comics they had like entire divisions of Giant Men and Wasps and supersoldiers that could hulk-out in a limited capacity right? The mass production of superpowers is like the first thing everyone would be working towards in this universe.

Also how has the Shadow Council of Nations not pumped a few trillion dollars into fast-tracking the creation of XCOM SWORD at this point, in this universe where humanity has (1) discovered the existence of alien life and (2) found it to be extremely hostile? You would think some people at SHIELD would be aware of this new sister agency and at least mentioned it a few times at this point.

jng2058
Jul 17, 2010

We have the tools, we have the talent!


Skye's quite about SHIELD and the Battle of New york was in the first episode when she confronts Mike in the diner. The thing is, what she actually said was: "They knew about the Battle of New York before it even happened, and then cleaned it up before anyone could ask any cool questions!" By which we can infer that they grabbed all the alien corpses and technology before anyone else could since obviously everyone knows about the Battle of New York. (Or else Mike would have been asking "what battle?")

Indeed, when we first see Ward he's recovering some Chitauri technology from the guy in Paris, so obviously that effort is ongoing.

notthegoatseguy
Sep 6, 2005
I'm a petty asshole



Did anyone recognize the guy from the post-credits scene? Is he someone from some Extremis story that I've never heard of before or an original show creation?

jng2058
Jul 17, 2010

We have the tools, we have the talent!


It's a guy in jail.

They didn't mention a name so it could be anyone. We don't have enough data just yet.

Rohan Kishibe
Oct 29, 2011

Frankly, I don't like you
and I never have.


Cardboard Box A posted:

In the comics they had like entire divisions of Giant Men and Wasps and supersoldiers that could hulk-out in a limited capacity right? The mass production of superpowers is like the first thing everyone would be working towards in this universe.

That's just in Ultimates I think. Even then, you have cybernetics, power armours, mutant growth hormone and so on so SHIELD definitely has superpower access.

The show is more consistent about the tech level and such so far than the comics are. You have current day NASA tech in one strip and then the government having access to space-planes designed by Reed Richards the next. You have the army as normally equipped real-life dudes, when the US government can afford to build an entire army of Sentinels just to hunt down mutants.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for an off-hand reference to Wakanda or Latveria. I'm really hoping we eventually get an Excalibur episode but that's just a pipe dream I think, I may as well hope for a New Mutants TV series.

notthegoatseguy
Sep 6, 2005
I'm a petty asshole



Prison Warden posted:

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for an off-hand reference to Wakanda or Latveria. I'm really hoping we eventually get an Excalibur episode but that's just a pipe dream I think, I may as well hope for a New Mutants TV series.

Apparently Wakanda can be seen on a map in Iron Man 2.

I highly doubt they'd actually use Latveria since they don't have the rights to Doom.

Hakkesshu
Nov 3, 2009



notthegoatseguy posted:

Apparently Wakanda can be seen on a map in Iron Man 2.

I highly doubt they'd actually use Latveria since they don't have the rights to Doom.

I think they theoretically could, since movie rights and TV rights are separate, hence why they can still make cartoons with Doom in them. They probably wouldn't want to break any type of movie continuity, though.

notthegoatseguy
Sep 6, 2005
I'm a petty asshole



Hakkesshu posted:

I think they theoretically could, since movie rights and TV rights are separate, hence why they can still make cartoons with Doom in them. They probably wouldn't want to break any type of movie continuity, though.

My initial understanding was that it was animated rights only. But some articles indicate it is ALL television rights. But you're right. I don't see how SHIELD, which exists within MCU, would use something that couldn't also be in the movies.

DFu4ever
Oct 4, 2002



ToastyPotato posted:

The most disappointing thing about the show is the fact that the show isn't the slightest bit interested in portraying a post alien invasion world. Shield doesn't seem to be operating much different than it was prior to Avengers.

Because SHIELD was already operating with the knowledge that poo poo like the Chitauri, Asgardians, and the Tesseract exist. The Battle of New York was a surprise not because of who was involved, but because of the scale of the event itself which was the first major superhuman/alien event in the MCU.

The big change post-Avengers is that the public is now very much aware that the world is a lot more interesting than they previously though, even if SHIELD tries its best to cover up the specifics of these sort of events.

ToastyPotato
Jun 23, 2005

CONVICTED OF DISPLAYING HIS PEANUTS IN PUBLIC

Yeah but during the Avengers, Shield found itself under direct attack twice and basically got its rear end kicked twice. Considering the subplot in Avengers was Shield trying to arm itself with HYDRA tech, it's kind of boring that they decided to make a show about a rag tag group of misfit agents who go around and occasionally do a thing, with no real reference or establishment of the repercussions of an alien invasion that nearly destroyed half of Manhattan in broad day light. Iron Man 3 didn't really cover this as well, and it isn't looking like Thor 2 nor Cap. America 2 will focus too much on this either. Think about how much the world changed after 9/11. Now compare it to what happened in Avengers. Now look at what AoS has shown as far as repercussions of invasion.

The show could have been the perfect avenue to focus on Shield itself, with a secondary light put on regular people, of whom Skye could have been a great surrogate but instead its so far been content with being a some what generic, though entertaining, sci-fi super spy show with Marvel stuff pasted on it.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



As someone who kinda digs this show that's a very accurate assessment.

Wanderer
Nov 5, 2006

our every move is the new tradition


jng2058 posted:

Skye's quite about SHIELD and the Battle of New york was in the first episode when she confronts Mike in the diner. The thing is, what she actually said was: "They knew about the Battle of New York before it even happened, and then cleaned it up before anyone could ask any cool questions!" By which we can infer that they grabbed all the alien corpses and technology before anyone else could since obviously everyone knows about the Battle of New York. (Or else Mike would have been asking "what battle?")

Indeed, when we first see Ward he's recovering some Chitauri technology from the guy in Paris, so obviously that effort is ongoing.

Yeah, there's a short film on the Avengers DVD about a couple of petty thieves who managed to hold onto and reactivate a Chitauri gun and who are using it to rob banks.

ToastyPotato posted:

The most disappointing thing about the show is the fact that the show isn't the slightest bit interested in portraying a post alien invasion world.

I'm an episode behind, but I distinctly remember the motivation of several antagonists being something along the lines of "It's a new world now. We can't trust SHIELD." That's why the Peruvian lady backstabbed Coulson in the second episode.

ToastyPotato
Jun 23, 2005

CONVICTED OF DISPLAYING HIS PEANUTS IN PUBLIC

Wanderer posted:

Yeah, there's a short film on the Avengers DVD about a couple of petty thieves who managed to hold onto and reactivate a Chitauri gun and who are using it to rob banks.


I'm an episode behind, but I distinctly remember the motivation of several antagonists being something along the lines of "It's a new world now. We can't trust SHIELD." That's why the Peruvian lady backstabbed Coulson in the second episode.

Nobody trusted Shield in any of the Marvel films so far either, so that is not really indicative of anything. An example of my point is the fact that outside of Coulson, who basically died via impalement on an alien spear, via a godlike being, no one seems to have any real issue or trauma with what happened in NYC. Again, think about how many people had their world turned upside down by 9/11, and now realize that no one on the team, most of whom were in Shield when this happened, seem to have any issue with the fact that we were invaded by aliens and a bunch of people died. They have literally returned to just globe trotting around looking up suspicious things and people, which is what they have been doing since the first Marvel film.

Even Skye, who is a normal person, is no where near as phased by any of this as she probably should be. She's apparently just as concerned with (spoilered because you are behind) finding out what happened to her parents as she is about "getting the truth out there" or whatever.

I dunno. The show isn't awful by any stretch. It's miles ahead of Smallville, but dammit if so far it doesn't feel like its wasting its potential.

Retro Futurist
Aug 8, 2007

Yesterday's Tomorrow,
Today!


ToastyPotato posted:

Nobody trusted Shield in any of the Marvel films so far either, so that is not really indicative of anything. An example of my point is the fact that outside of Coulson, who basically died via impalement on an alien spear, via a godlike being, no one seems to have any real issue or trauma with what happened in NYC. Again, think about how many people had their world turned upside down by 9/11, and now realize that no one on the team, most of whom were in Shield when this happened, seem to have any issue with the fact that we were invaded by aliens and a bunch of people died. They have literally returned to just globe trotting around looking up suspicious things and people, which is what they have been doing since the first Marvel film.

Even Skye, who is a normal person, is no where near as phased by any of this as she probably should be. She's apparently just as concerned with (spoilered because you are behind) finding out what happened to her parents as she is about "getting the truth out there" or whatever.

I dunno. The show isn't awful by any stretch. It's miles ahead of Smallville, but dammit if so far it doesn't feel like its wasting its potential.

Most of those people weren't anywhere near New York at the time, so they'd manage. Tony's PTSD was also a major bit of Iron Man 3 so it wouldn't exactly be new ground

Dexo
Aug 15, 2009

I been ballin' so damn hard I swear I think that I'm Coby


ToastyPotato posted:

Nobody trusted Shield in any of the Marvel films so far either, so that is not really indicative of anything. An example of my point is the fact that outside of Coulson, who basically died via impalement on an alien spear, via a godlike being, no one seems to have any real issue or trauma with what happened in NYC. Again, think about how many people had their world turned upside down by 9/11, and now realize that no one on the team, most of whom were in Shield when this happened, seem to have any issue with the fact that we were invaded by aliens and a bunch of people died. They have literally returned to just globe trotting around looking up suspicious things and people, which is what they have been doing since the first Marvel film.

Even Skye, who is a normal person, is no where near as phased by any of this as she probably should be. She's apparently just as concerned with (spoilered because you are behind) finding out what happened to her parents as she is about "getting the truth out there" or whatever.

I dunno. The show isn't awful by any stretch. It's miles ahead of Smallville, but dammit if so far it doesn't feel like its wasting its potential.

9/11 is a national tragedy, It was an attack directed at us with a closer personal attachment. With nothing but losers, Impossible to get a rah rah happy feeling from it.

Aliens coming from outer-space is a planetary event. And we won, which means to the world at whole it's going to be a good feeling rather than a lovely event where we do nothing but suffer losses. Only those with personal attachments would feel any emotions from that event.

boom boom boom
Jun 28, 2012

by Shine


A mythological god led an alien army to devastate downtown New York, but was repelled by an above the law millionaire with a robot suit, that monster that rampages around sometimes, another mythological god, and an actor who died in WWII, all led by a shadowy secret government organization that didn't exist until like, a month ago. Literally every preconception everyone ever had about the world is wrong. poo poo should be going absolutely crazy.

Error 404
Jul 17, 2009


MAGE CURES PLOT

boom boom boom posted:

A mythological god led an alien army to devastate downtown New York, but was repelled by an above the law millionaire with a robot suit, that monster that rampages around sometimes, another mythological god, and an actor who died in WWII, all led by a shadowy secret government organization that didn't exist until like, a month ago. Literally every preconception everyone ever had about the world is wrong. poo poo should be going absolutely crazy.

Well, as long as we're speculating based off of some nebulous idea of 'realism' then there's a whole lot of varied responses.

There's the truthers who spam youtube and the internet with unverifiable conspiracy theories and blurry cell phone footage (whatever SHIELD can't buy,steal,bury) "Obama lied, New York died"

There's the folks who will declare it a false flag attack ala Sandy Hook

There will be many flavors of hero worship possibly even bordering on the religious:
from a rebirth of Norse religion (outside of the Stormfront crowd)
loonies mixing steroids and pcp and painting themselves green
Tea partiers dressing like captain america instead of uncle sam or w/e
To the mentioned (in the show) "sweaty cosplay girls" outside Stark Tower.

Bringing up 9/11 as a comparison is actually kind of apt. Because it'll be a similar kind of thing.
Some people lost family and friends, some people were stuck in front of the tv for months, but a lot of people just don't actually care one way or another beyond 'gosh that was a tragedy'. The vast majority of people are too apathetic and self absorbed to give too much of a poo poo.
The only real difference is that we would feel good because we beat the bad guys, instead of bad because the bad guys won.

My point is that there's a whole lot of wiggle room for what we've seen to be entirely plausible within the narrative framework we've been shown so far.

DFu4ever
Oct 4, 2002



ToastyPotato posted:

Yeah but during the Avengers, Shield found itself under direct attack twice and basically got its rear end kicked twice. Considering the subplot in Avengers was Shield trying to arm itself with HYDRA tech, it's kind of boring that they decided to make a show about a rag tag group of misfit agents who go around and occasionally do a thing, with no real reference or establishment of the repercussions of an alien invasion that nearly destroyed half of Manhattan in broad day light.

Except The Avengers are SHIELD's answer to the problem they faced in The Avengers. In the MCU there aren't a huge amount of known superhumans yet, so what is SHIELD expected to do? They aren't evil, which is why they aren't forcing the superhumans they do know to work for them (unlike the mysterious enemy in this show). They already chase down advanced tech, so that hasn't really changed. SHIELD still does what it was doing before the battle because really, outside of hiring more Avengers they can't counter something of that scale by conventional means, so they act to prevent situations like that from popping up.

Thus, Agents of SHIELD.

And that said, we're just five episodes in. I highly doubt the show is going to ignore the events in The Avengers, and I have zero doubts we'll get some stories that deal with the repercussions of that event (we've already had bits and pieces of this). Having a show focused solely on the fallout would be ridiculously overfocused, especially considering big events are still happening in the movies. It'd suck to set up the premise of your show to constantly have to chase the fallout of events happening in the movies after they one-up each other every year.

And honestly, once they start bringing in bits of Cosmic Marvel, the Battle of New York is going to seem like a nostalgic afterthought.

Error 404 posted:

Well, as long as we're speculating based off of some nebulous idea of 'realism' then there's a whole lot of varied responses.

There's the truthers who spam youtube and the internet with unverifiable conspiracy theories and blurry cell phone footage (whatever SHIELD can't buy,steal,bury) "Obama lied, New York died"

There's the folks who will declare it a false flag attack ala Sandy Hook

There will be many flavors of hero worship possibly even bordering on the religious:
from a rebirth of Norse religion (outside of the Stormfront crowd)
loonies mixing steroids and pcp and painting themselves green
Tea partiers dressing like captain america instead of uncle sam or w/e
To the mentioned (in the show) "sweaty cosplay girls" outside Stark Tower.

Bringing up 9/11 as a comparison is actually kind of apt. Because it'll be a similar kind of thing.
Some people lost family and friends, some people were stuck in front of the tv for months, but a lot of people just don't actually care one way or another beyond 'gosh that was a tragedy'. The vast majority of people are too apathetic and self absorbed to give too much of a poo poo.
The only real difference is that we would feel good because we beat the bad guys, instead of bad because the bad guys won.

My point is that there's a whole lot of wiggle room for what we've seen to be entirely plausible within the narrative framework we've been shown so far.

The great thing is that this very show, with its broader premise, can actually address that sort of stuff at times.

DFu4ever fucked around with this message at 02:31 on Oct 24, 2013

Error 404
Jul 17, 2009


MAGE CURES PLOT

DFu4ever posted:

The great thing is that this very show can actually address that sort of stuff at times.

That was kind of
The Rising Tide = truthers crossed with the Anonymous/ wikileaks folks.

Stark Tower cosplay girls, etc.

We've already seen these, and it's pretty much guaranteed we'll see more stuff in that vein.

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DynamicSloth
Jul 30, 2006

"Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth."

Also this show is based on Marvel Comics, and in Marvel comics citizens aren't constantly wandering around freaked out by all the aliens and demigods running around blowing up the city every couple of days it's just a convention of the genre that society reverts to a semblance of relatable normality no matter what kind of crazy poo poo happened last week.

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