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SlimGoodbody
Oct 20, 2003



TwoPair posted:

I just caught up to FatWS and I don't really... get what's happening at all? The plot feels so disjointed. Like, let's set aside for a second the Flag-Smashers wanting to make a world without nations, let's pretend it's totally bad like the show paints it as in episode 1.

So the Flag Smashers' stated goal in episode 2 is that the world was better during the Blip and that the GRC are prioritizing people who came back in the Blip over the people who lived during it but then they're like... stealing from the GRC supply depots to... give stuff to people in the GRC camps? And I guess there's a message about how the government is lovely and just sitting on supplies instead of doing their jobs and getting supplies to the people but at this point it seems less like they're fighting for people who lived through the Blip and more like they're just cutting through bureaucracy to efficiently distribute aid?

And then there's Walker kind of acting unhinged all of a sudden when he seemed like a perfectly decent person in the last episode? I mean sure we only spent part of one episode with the guy but at least right now it feels like the show is going "Oh yeah the audience is supposed to be suspicious of this guy and want Sam & Bucky to take the shield back, quick, remind them he's not the True Cap" and having him talk to Lemar about doing shady stuff "off-the-books" like our heroes didn't just bust a loving terrorist out of prison in the same episode.

All I'm saying is we're officially halfway through this show and I don't know what the hell I'm supposed to be pulling for other than for Sam to become Captain America because that's what happens in the comics and I think his costume is neat.

The theme I'm seeing so far is that everyone is morally compromised and operating in a gray zone, because the point of Cap was that he was somehow strong and smart and principled enough to do what was right no matter what. He was never compromised, he was never in the gray. They broke the mold when they made him, and no one knows how to live up to what he was now that he's gone.

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site
Apr 6, 2007

Trans pride, Worldwide
Bitch


I think the theme with karli is that if they didn't make her do something unquestionably bad the audience was gonna start to consider maybe capitalism and the failures of western aid might be bad

site fucked around with this message at 04:02 on Apr 6, 2021

Sanschel
Aug 9, 2002



https://www.tiktok.com/@newrockstar...1&is_copy_url=0

Somebody on a discord I frequent posted this, and I think it speaks a lot to why the plot feels disjointed and character motivations are muddled. If there was originally a virus killing refugees and vaccines were being withheld, that could be seen as a more justifiable excuse for the bombing, and the whole Flag Smasher plot in general. Something as urgent as that would also help lend credence to why Sam and Bucky would so willingly let Zemo remain free.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



I don't think the Walker stuff is complicated at all. He's an entitled guy who is the best of the best and "earned" becoming Captain America and got all the fanfare. But he's failing. He got his rear end kicked by the Flag Smashers. Sam and Bucky rejected working with him. They've been a step ahead of him this whole time. He can't find the Flag Smashers. People don't respect him the way they should. And he's showing who he is under the pressure of it all. "Do you know who am I?!" is the same thing as telling Bucky and Sam "I put in the work." He doesn't get it. And its breaking him. And I'm guessing results in him taking the serum to compensate.

Karli and the Flag Smashers is more complicated because we still don't really know their full agenda. But Karli's obviously angry and sees the GRC as an enemy in a war. So she acted in that context. And that feels like an extreme, both from what we've seen and how her fellow Flag Smasher reacted but we still don't know. Nor do we know if the serum is affecting her mentally.

Its still in flux and feels deep in but we're half way through. If we see the series as 3 acts than theoretically things should come together by next episode's end I dunno if its gonna feel more cohesive but right now its shaping up as a lot of people who think they're doing the right thing but making moral compromises and failing in their goals. Something's gotta give for all of them.

Barry Convex
Sep 1, 2005

Think of the good things, Pim! The good things!

Like Jesus, candy, and crackerjacks! Ice cream and cake and lots o'laffs!
Grandma, Grandpa, and Uncle Joe! Larry, Curly, and brother Moe!


Sanschel posted:

https://www.tiktok.com/@newrockstar...1&is_copy_url=0

Somebody on a discord I frequent posted this, and I think it speaks a lot to why the plot feels disjointed and character motivations are muddled. If there was originally a virus killing refugees and vaccines were being withheld, that could be seen as a more justifiable excuse for the bombing, and the whole Flag Smasher plot in general. Something as urgent as that would also help lend credence to why Sam and Bucky would so willingly let Zemo remain free.

yeah, the rumor is that they started reshoots/rewrites to remove the virus storyline even before COVID blew up worldwide and forced the production to shut down. no idea how accurate that is but might explain some things

TwoPair
Mar 28, 2010

Pandamn It Feels Good To Be A Gangsta


Grimey Drawer

Yeah that sounds like it would make way more sense. And I get why they would cut it out, because no one wants to hear about viruses in their fantasy show when they have to deal with it in the real world, but on the other hand it is making the plot suffer (imo)

Mr Hootington
Jul 24, 2008

et tu hootay




So zemo was right to kill that dude.

Unless there is some (incredibly stupid) twist Zemo and The flag smashers are good guys.

omg chael crash
Jul 8, 2012

Macys paid for this. Noodle Boy and Bonby are bad at video games and even worse friends.



Mr Hootington posted:

So zemo was right to kill that dude.

Unless there is some (incredibly stupid) twist Zemo and The flag smashers are good guys.

The Flag Smashers SHOULD be the good guys. A world without borders isn’t a devious notion

Mr Hootington
Jul 24, 2008

et tu hootay




omg chael crash posted:

The Flag Smashers SHOULD be the good guys. A world without borders isn’t a devious notion

Yes everything about this is really dumb and starting to bother me.

Lmao the car bomb. She is still right too.

Mr Hootington fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Apr 6, 2021

Lobok
Jul 13, 2006

Say Watt?



I'll stick my neck out here and say that a world without borders can mean different things and is not necessarily a good thing. I don't recall the specifics of the Blip era, what was going on again? By "no borders" was it just unfettered migration? I seem to remember something about how governance was done differently but someone can clue me in on that.

OnimaruXLR
Sep 15, 2007
Lurklurklurklurklurk

Mr Hootington posted:

Unless there is some (incredibly stupid) twist Zemo and The flag smashers are good guys.

Zemo is probably going to try and kill all of the the Flag Smashers, and Bucky if presented with the opportunity, and probably Isaiah if he gets the chance, so this seems like a weird thing to say

SonicRulez
Aug 6, 2013

GOTTA GO FIST


I just think they're doing so much to humanize the Flag Smashers and especially Karli that I have to believe they're going somewhere with all of this. Bucky's not just gonna head tap her and all the others at the end. Will Sam look into the camera and say "A world without borders is unquestionably just and the US military working against that is corrupt"? No. But they're obviously going somewhere more complex than "everybody but Falcon and Bucky bad" with it.

I dunno, I'm a little overwhelmed from the Twitter "The villains are called Flag Smashers? And they want no borders? Lmao not watching." takes I keep seeing. There's context!

site
Apr 6, 2007

Trans pride, Worldwide
Bitch


It's gonna be this speech instead

Vince MechMahon
Jan 1, 2008





OnimaruXLR posted:

Zemo is probably going to try and kill all of the the Flag Smashers, and Bucky if presented with the opportunity, and probably Isaiah if he gets the chance, so this seems like a weird thing to say

While I don't agree with it, the argument could be made by someone like Zemo that they are all too dangerous to live.

Mr Hootington
Jul 24, 2008

et tu hootay




OnimaruXLR posted:

Zemo is probably going to try and kill all of the the Flag Smashers, and Bucky if presented with the opportunity, and probably Isaiah if he gets the chance, so this seems like a weird thing to say

And? Because:

Vince MechMahon posted:

While I don't agree with it, the argument could be made by someone like Zemo that they are all too dangerous to live.

Zemo was right to kill the scientist. the scientist was the most dangerous man alive.

Edit: in the world that was built for the MCU, the majority of the heroes are as just a much a danger to the world as the villains the heroes helped create.

The best comparison I can think of for the heroes at this point are atomic bombs that people are replicating and using. They are not a deterrent.

Edit 2: in light of wandavision zemo is double correct. Look what happened with The Vision and look at what Wanda did.

Mr Hootington fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Apr 7, 2021

Vince MechMahon
Jan 1, 2008





Mr Hootington posted:

And? Because:


Zemo was right to kill the scientist. the scientist was the most dangerous man alive.

Edit: in the world that was built for the MCU, the majority of the heroes are as just a much a danger to the world as the villains the heroes helped create.

I will agree with you on the scientist thing. The dude was super amoral. He didn't give a poo poo about the consequences, he was obsessed with the work, and would never have stopped. He had to go.

Mr Hootington
Jul 24, 2008

et tu hootay




Vince MechMahon posted:

I will agree with you on the scientist thing. The dude was super amoral. He didn't give a poo poo about the consequences, he was obsessed with the work, and would never have stopped. He had to go.

Correct and in light of what we found out pertaining to Isaiah and what we know about the Hulk and Abmination. The super Soldier program must be stopped.

Lobok
Jul 13, 2006

Say Watt?



Probably for the best narratively that he dies so that the MCU doesn't go back to the well of "oh, but did you know there are actually more super soldiers?" a third time.

mikeraskol
May 3, 2006

Oh yeah. I was killing you.

Lobok posted:

Probably for the best narratively that he dies so that the MCU doesn't go back to the well of "oh, but did you know there are actually more super soldiers?" a third time.

There's always another ex-Hydra scientist working on it somewhere.

Lobok
Jul 13, 2006

Say Watt?



mikeraskol posted:

There's always another ex-Hydra scientist working on it somewhere.

Oh of course there are a million ways to bring it back but when you have Zemo going "there, I've cut off the source twice now" it's like the MCU putting a self-imposed block against doing it again because that's going to be some real eye-rolly poo poo if it comes back.

site
Apr 6, 2007

Trans pride, Worldwide
Bitch


There's always sam sterns

OnimaruXLR
Sep 15, 2007
Lurklurklurklurklurk

Mr Hootington posted:

And? Because:


Zemo was right to kill the scientist. the scientist was the most dangerous man alive.

Edit: in the world that was built for the MCU, the majority of the heroes are as just a much a danger to the world as the villains the heroes helped create.

The best comparison I can think of for the heroes at this point are atomic bombs that people are replicating and using. They are not a deterrent.

Edit 2: in light of wandavision zemo is double correct. Look what happened with The Vision and look at what Wanda did.

That guy being dead is hunky dory, but Bucky was modified against his will, as was Isaiah, and if you're taking the full one percent chance enemy=absolute certainty tack, they might as well start building giant purple murder robots and send them after Eli Bradley, Peter Parker, Skrull refugees, and anyone else who might be dangerous

Which, y'know, especially with said robots being purple, Zemo would be super down for

Mr Hootington
Jul 24, 2008

et tu hootay




OnimaruXLR posted:

That guy being dead is hunky dory, but Bucky was modified against his will, as was Isaiah, and if you're taking the full one percent chance enemy=absolute certainty tack, they might as well start building giant purple murder robots and send them after Eli Bradley, Peter Parker, Skrull refugees, and anyone else who might be dangerous

Which, y'know, especially with said robots being purple, Zemo would be super down for

Ok? The problem here is you are thinking "golly gee won't someone think of the living WMDs?" We have now seen that the science and tech is not only being failed to secure, but is consistently being used to create mass causality events.

If you are saying that allowing the parts necessary to make armies of super soldiers should be allowed to exist then director Hayward was right in using The Vision the way he did.

Edit: the skrulls haven't been shown to be an existential threat. At this current point in MCU world building they are just as much victims as the "normal" humans.

Edit: if we run with the idea that it is immoral destroy the living WMDs then it was wrong for Zemo to kill the scientist because proliferation maybe be a deterrence to super aggression. Especially American backed super aggression.

poo poo we haven't even gotten into how America is using living wmds to force its will the world at this point. They are operating everywhere and nobody can stand up to them.

Mr Hootington fucked around with this message at 02:18 on Apr 7, 2021

site
Apr 6, 2007

Trans pride, Worldwide
Bitch


i mean the problem that the governments of the mcu have to grapple with is that there are existential threats out there they have no knowledge of but know exist nonetheless. no one knew about thanos until the first ring ship showed up and 12 hours later half the planet was dead. before that loki popped into existence in a shield facility and two days later there was an alien invasion no one expected. ultron emerged out of tony stark's garage and because the avengers didnt clue anyone in or know his plan 5 days later an entire country got turned into a doomsday bomb

site fucked around with this message at 02:17 on Apr 7, 2021

Sgt. Politeness
Sep 29, 2003

I've seen shit you people wouldn't believe. Cop cars on fire off the shoulder of I-94. I watched search lights glitter in the dark near the Ambassador Bridge. All those moments will be lost in time, like piss in the drain. Time to retch.

Yeah they're not all WMDs or whatever, and wiping them all from the board is how you get Snapped. Oversight, fine(*Cough*the Accords), but in the MCU you need people who can take on ridiculous threat levels. I get why Zemo says "No Heroes" but it's a little short sighted to just get behind him because Peter Park could go rogue.

Mr Hootington
Jul 24, 2008

et tu hootay




Sure, sure I understand that about the outside threats so what is the solution? The world as it stands in the MCU can not continue to work the way it does. You will see a global supers arms race (which is being shown to have started happeninh) or hydra but "for our own good" taking over.

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!



At least there won't be capital-d Discourse around Loki

And I'm probably going to regret saying that in a couple of months when Loki time travels to the loving Crimean War or something and looks at the camera and says "it's good that this happened"

Blockhouse fucked around with this message at 03:31 on Apr 7, 2021

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.




There's capital D Discourse about every show.

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!



Skwirl posted:

There's capital D Discourse about every show.

Not to the degree of something like FatWS where a show tries to take a direct, open political angle and just promptly stumbles rear end-over-teakettle down a flight of stairs

Blockhouse fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Apr 7, 2021

Vince MechMahon
Jan 1, 2008





At the very least, Bucky and Isaiah should change their identities and be in hiding, with someone they trust under strict orders to completely destroy their bodies when they die. The argument that they're too dangerous to even do that simply by existing is still there though. It's not their fault, and that sucks, but we still put typhoid Mary on an island and it wasn't her fault either.

X-O
Apr 28, 2002

Long Live The King!



I never read the book, because it's Millar, but apparently they made this into a show? I guess someone might want to see it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY3IAqm-gpE

Lurdiak
Feb 25, 2006

I believe in a universe that doesn't care, and people that do.




If they can make The Boys something humans expose themselves to on purpose, anything's possible.

Cael
Feb 2, 2004

I get this funky high on the yellow sun.



A very large part of why Jupiter's Legacy is good is Frank Quitely's art. You take away that sensibility and that trailer just makes it look like a slightly higher budget CW DC show complete with any joy sucked out. I'll still watch it but I'm not getting my high hopes up.

Also it had a ton of behinds the scenes churn/changes/conflict/reshoots.

Sanschel
Aug 9, 2002



That looks like a really self-absorbed remake of Sky High.

TwoPair
Mar 28, 2010

Pandamn It Feels Good To Be A Gangsta


Grimey Drawer

Mr Hootington posted:

Sure, sure I understand that about the outside threats so what is the solution? The world as it stands in the MCU can not continue to work the way it does.

There's not a solution. I believe that much like the comics, you're just gonna have to suspend your disbelief more and more because much like the comic world, the writers are going to simultaneously keep the world as close as possible to our own, but also they're gonna keep shoving in more out there characters as we scrape the margins of the OHOTMU for new potential movies

Skwirl
May 13, 2007

The 'blood babe with the silicone chest, 200-dollar haircut, and a closet full of the latest fashions.




Lurdiak posted:

If they can make The Boys something humans expose themselves to on purpose, anything's possible.

I've never read the comic but The Boys tv show is good.

X-O
Apr 28, 2002

Long Live The King!



I read a few issues of the comic years ago and it made me never want to see the show even be made. So don't try to read it!

Brazilianpeanutwar
Aug 27, 2015

Spent my walletfull, on a jpeg, desolate, will croberts make a whale of me yet?


X-O posted:

I read a few issues of the comic years ago and it made me never want to see the show even be made. So don't try to read it!

Show’s good,they’ve took out alot of the edgy bollocks and there’s some great acting.

Gaunab
Feb 13, 2012



X-O posted:

I read a few issues of the comic years ago and it made me never want to see the show even be made. So don't try to read it!

Same. It just wasn't pleasant.

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X-O
Apr 28, 2002

Long Live The King!



It Just Wasn't Pleasant: The Garth Ennis Story

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