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Slightly unrelated, I just got my GMT Deluxe copy of No Retreat: The North African Front! I've played the VPG version before but was really looking forward to the new version.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:00
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I've heard that the mechanics don't port to another front all that well, but the rules and cards have been largely clarified. Is that true?
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Dec 19, 2013 16:57
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I didn't really have an issue with the rules themselves: there are enough changes that make it clear that the second version is a very different beast (for example, infantry allowing infiltration of armoured units around their ZOC). I still need to go through the cards. When I originally played it, the issue seemed to be that sometimes the game can tend to be slightly repetitive, but they've made adjustments to some of the rules which should make the game more playable. The supply system, for a start, seems to replicate the front pretty well.
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Dec 19, 2013 17:01
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Also keep in mind that the designer continuously tinkers with his games (the GMT ruleset that this LP is using for NR!1 is quite different from the original ruleset for the game, with the addition of counterblows being the biggest change) so the game has probably changed somewhat from the initial VPG edition based on feedback and experience. I know my largest complaint was that playing the period before Rommel arrives was essentially pointless since it amounts to British units powering across the map with the Italians helpless to stop them no matter what the players do. I imagine that he's tried to improve that issue along with some others, so I'm looking forward to seeing reports from people who P500'ed the new edition (Tekopo).
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Dec 19, 2013 18:22
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The General's office was a mess, nothing but paper everywhere. Theoretical solutions to problems such as Leningrad and Sevastopol littered the floor and the walls. There was but one issue: Der fuhrer wanted Moscow more. General Herpicle paced about his room, wondering where he went wrong. It turned out, it all boiled down to Army Group Centre. This is why he ordered Davin to inspect the 9th Army directly, and advise the commander there on how to minimise losses. Of course, it was a fools errand, but he had no other duties as The OKH ordered the troops not to counterblow. When he heard of the attack on the 4th Rumanian, the commander wondered whether or not to send Logicone. The commander was not stupid though, as that would be certain death. He returned to pacing about the war room, until under orders from his mother, trousers were deployed to active duty. Excerpt from a book titled, Der Pantzerjaeger.
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Dec 19, 2013 18:52
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The Stavka chief grabbed his assistant once more. "AND MY NEW CONSCRIPTS? WHERE ARE MY NEW CONSCRIPTS?" "In Tula, sir, to reform Central front!" He relaxed. "Good, hopefully they will be in time to take part in the battle..."  --- Battles to be resolved South to North. Shock markers on both battles. Fangz fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 20:04
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South will advance if possible If forced to retreat South will go SE SE... again
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Dec 20, 2013 00:13
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Central will advance. Retreat is not an option. Hipster Rooster fucked around with this message at 11:14 on Dec 20, 2013 |
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Dec 20, 2013 11:04
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This would be a day remembered by historians all over the globe. A day of glory, or darkness, neither side could know at the time. Generalmajor Davin Valkri's inspection of the 9th Army had found only one way to win. Only one way to stand a chance in the darkness of battle. He ordered the troops to Hold at all Costs, a tactic applied all throughout the Eastern Front. He also ordered the 9th to perform an Elastic Defense. This would be the end of the 9th Army, but it would be the start of Operation Down with a Bang.   A historian, 1997.
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Dec 20, 2013 11:43
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Wait did you just play a card that turns retreats into exchanges and then play a second card that makes a unit retreat, so what, the 9th just made an exchange with itself? 
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Dec 20, 2013 12:01
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My understanding of it is that it allows the 9th Army to act as a trap of sorts. They attack it with everything, it forces an exchange which lowers each attacking unit's step by one (Russians only have one step) therefore the 9th Army annihilates the group plaguing AGC and then dies. I think.
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Dec 20, 2013 12:07
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:My understanding of it is that it allows the 9th Army to act as a trap of sorts. They attack it with everything, it forces an exchange which lowers each attacking unit's step by one (Russians only have one step) therefore the 9th Army annihilates the group plaguing AGC and then dies. I think. Er, that's not how EX results work. Each *side* takes 1 step, not one step per unit. If the latter was true, those EX results on AGS would have done a *ton* more damage.
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Dec 20, 2013 12:08
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HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:My understanding of it is that it allows the 9th Army to act as a trap of sorts. They attack it with everything, it forces an exchange which lowers each attacking unit's step by one (Russians only have one step) therefore the 9th Army annihilates the group plaguing AGC and then dies. I think. I'm pretty sure that as written the effect of those two cards played in tandem is the 9th proceeds to exchange fire with itself, but I'm also fairly sure that those two cards were not expected to be played in tandem.
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Dec 20, 2013 12:10
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Oh. Huh. Welp, I guess Operation Down with a Bang is a failure then. 
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Dec 20, 2013 12:12
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drat it, who let the Führer in on the briefings again?
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Dec 20, 2013 12:22
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It really is brilliant how accurately this game has modelled the communications issues and insane leadership that occurred during the real war.
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Dec 20, 2013 12:26
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Postwar historians would spend years debating just what the hell OKH was on, and why the AG commanders did not mutiny from his incompetence.
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Dec 20, 2013 14:32
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Davin Valkri posted:Postwar historians would spend years debating just what the hell OKH was on, and why the AG commanders did not mutiny from his incompetence. Ein preussischer Feldmarschall meutert nicht! Not much to debate if you're from a certain culture (Germany/Japan), it's basically duty before dishonor.
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Dec 20, 2013 14:52
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I think we've covered why the Army Group commanders did not mutiny: Because if they lay a finger on the OKH, they'll be dealt with. Another benefit of nepotism. 
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Dec 20, 2013 15:50
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Incidentally, Tevery Best, neither of us need to submit retreat orders. 9th Army is a dead unit walking, and since Hold at All Costs! is theaterwide, the South-Rumanian fight can't result in a retreat. It'll be death for everybody involved. Poor Rumanians. 
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Dec 20, 2013 16:04
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Those two cards don't make a unit exchange with itself or anything weird like that. The first one says all DR results are EX instead. The second one says that the combat involving the soviets attacking 9th army is an automatic DR. Since the first card converts DRs to EXs, the combat is an automatic EX, which means 9th army loses a step and is eliminated and one of the attacking Soviet units also loses a step and is eliminated.
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Dec 20, 2013 16:20
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Riso posted:drat it, who let the Führer in on the briefings again? Suddenly, there is a knock at HerpicleOmnicron's door. The knocking is most polite, so HerpicleOmnicron wonders if it was perhaps someone bringing coffee... He opens the door, and comes face to face with  "Hold at all costs? WHY AREN'T YOU ATTACKING!?!?!?! You're just outside Moscow!" The Fuhrer froths. "Cancel the order to Hold at All Costs IMMEDIATELY!"   (Okay, Tevery probably should figure out how this resolves...)
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Dec 20, 2013 16:57
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drat it. drat it drat it drat it drat it drat it drat it. Now the 9th army will just retreat! That's not a good thing! drat it Davin, scramble over to the 9th and tell them to cancel the Elastic Defence! What do you mean its too late? You bloody incompetent weasel you... Operation Down with a Bang is now Operation Whimpering Kerfuffle.
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Dec 20, 2013 17:01
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I thought the last played card was Elastic Defense? Now I'm confused.
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Dec 20, 2013 17:01
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Whilst ED was last played, Fangz couldnt exactly react to Hold at all Costs on its own because I announced them both at the same time.
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Dec 20, 2013 17:03
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Davin Valkri posted:I thought the last played card was Elastic Defense? Now I'm confused. Well, the card says just-played, not last-played. It seems like either the two cards are played simultaneously, in which case both cards are 'just played', or they were actually effectively played one after the other, in which case we should have the opportunity to play Hitler's Interference after the first card.
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Dec 20, 2013 17:06
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Fair enough. God drat that Bavarian corporal. And god drat OKH!
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Dec 20, 2013 17:08
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ED technically hasn't been played yet since it won't get played till a soviet unit attacks, its just on the list of things that will get played so yeah this is correct. Gentlemen, you just got Hitlered.
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Dec 20, 2013 17:22
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Basically, this is the consequence of playing the game in a forums format: you kinda get to cherrypick with "counterspell" cards whenever several cards are played at once. Luckily, this should matter infrequently enough - in this case, it's likely Fangz would have cancelled Hold at all costs! anyway as soon as it hit the table. Also every single time I play this game I marvel at the fact that there is a grand total of 1 card that says either Hitler or Stalin on it and doesn't actually plague the guys on the given dictator's side. Update in a bit. EDIT: but since there's some time until the deadline still, I'm going to allow the Germans to reconsider playing Elastic Defence. This is the advantage of getting your things sent in before the eleventh hour, folks! Tevery Best fucked around with this message at 17:38 on Dec 20, 2013 |
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Dec 20, 2013 17:35
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Tevery Best posted:Also every single time I play this game I marvel at the fact that there is a grand total of 1 card that says either Hitler or Stalin on it and doesn't actually plague the guys on the given dictator's side. Stalin Holds A Party! All players drink a shot of vodka.
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Dec 20, 2013 17:37
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I don't get the final word, but dear god, reconsider, RECONSIDER!
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Dec 20, 2013 17:40
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Also there is the beautiful interaction between Stalin's Interference (which we've seen a while ago, so the card's existence is not a spoiler) and Hitler's Interference. Yes, one can cancel out the other. I've got a blurb prepared in case that happens and by Jove, do I want to use it.
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Dec 20, 2013 17:41
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I'm glad you can think of an explanation for that situation because I sure as hell can't.
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Dec 20, 2013 17:42
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Yeah, seeing as how DR means death, I think it's fair to allow the Germans to take back that play, since no one playing in a live format would continue on to play that card after Hold at All Costs got canceled.
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Dec 20, 2013 18:25
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Very well, we will Call off Elastic Defense. All of the failures of Operation Down with a Bang will rest upon the shoulders of Davin Valkri, the person most responsible.
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Dec 20, 2013 19:10
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Oh, yes, because it's my fault we had to attack Moscow with one AG instead of two because YOU insisted on taking Kiev by running men up the walls!Tevery Best posted:Also there is the beautiful interaction between Stalin's Interference (which we've seen a while ago, so the card's existence is not a spoiler) and Hitler's Interference. Yes, one can cancel out the other. Hitler and Stalin begin spamming the airwaves with insults like a couple of goons. The commanders on the ground mutually agree to let them rant and carry on the war as normal. They also agree that, whoever wins, they'll shoot their respective dictator in the head at the medals ceremony after hanging the other one.
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Dec 20, 2013 19:17
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 I've decided to allow the Soviets to put Bryansk in Strategic Reserve before Targets and Counterblows were announced, even though their movement phase just ended. This exception is because this is a new mechanic that has caused some confusion among the Soviet ranks.  The Stavka order an immediate conscription of several hundred thousand men from the Tula area, while also sending large armoured reinforcements to the units there. Between these men and the experienced remnants and officer corps of the Northwest Front, they now have a new and capable formation, which is renamed the Central Front. The Ostatky 1 are sent to the turn track. They will arrive in the Soviet Organisation Phase of Turn 5. As the Soviets prepare for their offensive, the OKH issues a general order to all units to hold their ground at all costs. They hope that in this way they will be able to withstand the underestimated Red Army attack and maintain better jump-off positions for an offensive drive in the spring. Hitler is completely on board with the plan and insists on delivering a recording of his speech backing up the order to the units on the Front. However, this delay and the political clout now surrounding the issue allows the NKVD to catch wind of it and report to the Front commanders, who can now better prepare their offensives and render the Germans' preparations mostly moot. Hitler did not always fancy himself a brilliant commander. In fact, remembering that he never got above corporal rank in the Army, he initially typically deferred to the more experienced members of the General Staff. This changed after a few of his ideas turned out to be spot on and unexpectedly successful. One of such situations came in 1940. When preparing for the campaign in the Low Countries, Belgium and France, German generals were wary about facing the numerous and strong French army. Pessimism was quite prevalent in the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht and no-one had any really good ideas about how to tackle the now fully-mobilised French with an army that had to take quite a while to recuperate after the Polish campaign. Hitler believed for a while then that an attack through the Ardennes forest and on to Sedan would allow for a decisive encirclement of a major part of the Allied forces and a severing of the supply lines from France to Belgium. However, as none of the other participants of the OKW meetings suggested anything of the sort, Hitler assumed it must have been an obviously bad idea for reasons that were apparent to everybody. Thus he said nothing. Meanwhile, generals von Rundstedt and von Manstein, along with general Guderian, who just happened to be around, devised a similar plan. They agreed that the OKW is going nowhere with the original Fall Gelb and something had to be done. They started to push for their idea to be adopted by the General Staff, but everyone else figured that it was silly - Ardennes seemed like a bad terrain to use tanks in, and using them completely independently from the main force was still a novelty, which may have worked against Poland, but the French army was a lot stronger, so such cheap tricks wouldn't work against that, right? It was January 9, 1940. A Wehrmacht officer, major Helmuth Reinberger, was partying up with his friends at one of the military casinos, despite the need to present important documents regarding the invasion plan to a division staff in Cologne. Luckily, one of his drinking buddies was a Luftwaffe officer who wanted to go to Cologne anyway - he needed the extra hours and had some laundry to drop off. He offered to take Reinberger there by plane, which the major readily accepted. The next morning, however, due to horrible fog (and probably some hangover), the pilot got lost and suddenly found himself over Belgium. Having ran out of fuel, he crash-landed. Before Reinberger had a chance to burn the documents, the place was swarming with Belgian intelligence officers. This caused the Germans to postpone their invasion for a few days, but during that time the weather worsened and the attack was called off indefinitely. Von Manstein, von Rundstedt and Guderian seized upon this opportunity and presented their version of the plan to Hitler. He was thrilled to see that he wasn't the only one to think about a thing like that and insisted that the OKW switch to an attack through Ardennes. Meanwhile, the Allied generals assumed the Wehrmacht would stick to their original plan, more or less, rather than try something weird. The result was an overwhelming German victory... and the fact that Hitler started regarding himself as far more competent than before.  South Front vs 4th Rumanian Sideshow Special An excerpt from the script of The Battle of Yakovka, a 1995 Rumanian animated musical GENERAL CONSTANTINESCU-CLAPS chants while donning armour What can you expect from filthy little heathens? Here's what you get when the classes aren't diverse! Their banners hellish red, they're only good when dead, they're vermin, as I said, and worse: they're... 4TH RUMANIAN CHOIR sings while reaching for their rusty pikes and flintlock rifles Communists! Communists! GENERAL CONSTANTINESCU-CLAPS Barely even human! 4TH RUMANIAN CHOIR Communists! Communists! CONSTANTINESCU-CLAPS Drive them from our shore! They're don't like cash and me, which means they must be evil, we must sound the drums of war! 4TH RUMANIAN CHOIR, playing the drums and marching out of their camp They're communists! Communists! Dirty shrieking devils! We must sound the drums of war! MEANWHILE, in the SOUTH FRONT HQ, COLONEL GENERAL YAKOV CHEREVICHENKO rallies his men for an attack. COLONEL GENERAL YAKOV CHEREVICHENKO This is what we know: the Axis are against us. It's time they pay the wages of their greed! Over their weaker side to Dnepro we shall ride! SOUTH FRONT SOLDIERS I wonder if they'll even bleed! ALL They're Rumanians! Rumanians! CHEREVICHENKO Barely even human! ALL Rumanians! Rumanians! CHEREVICHENKO Killers at the core! ALL Destroy their evil race until there's not a trace left! Now we sound the drums of war! MEANWHILE, POCAHONTASCU is talking to GRANDMOTHER RUSSIA. POCAHONTASCU I guess I should talk them out of killing each other and point out the meaninglessness of hate and war, shouldn't I? GRANDMOTHER RUSSIA Yes! Go! And let the spirits of the State Alcohol Monopoly guide you! South Front vs 4th Rumanian Combat odds: 3/2 = 3:2 - shifted +1 for Shock! Roll: 4 - EX South Front takes a step loss and is eliminated. It goes to the Destroyed Units Box. 4th Rumanian takes a step loss and is eliminated. It goes to the Turn Track to arrive as reinforcements in the Turn 8 German Organisation Phase.  5 HOURS LATER. The VILLAGE OF YAKOVKA is a burning field strewn with corpses and scattered artillery guns. POCAHONTASCU arrives and notices she is late. POCAHONTASCU Oh no! I never should have stopped to purchase those delicious, delicious value meals at Borscht King, now at just 2,59 leu (including VAT!). The movie was very poorly received by the critics. I hope you don't mind this little Christmas present, but seeing as this battle is kind of a sideshow I figured I can afford a little joke in between all the serious write-ups.  Southwest, Moscow, Reserve, Central vs 9th Army Combat odds: 16/3 = 5:1 - shifted +1 for Shock! marker, -1 for Forest for a total of 5:1 Roll: 2 - EX Moscow Front takes a step loss and is eliminated. It goes to the Destroyed Units Box. 9th Army takes a step loss and is eliminated. It goes to the Destroyed Units Box.  At Moscow, the combined might of 4 Soviet Fronts is brought to bear against the 9th Army. The Germans fight hard, but they just cannot stop the brutal Soviet onslaught. By December 19th, the Army is split by the Red Army advance into two battle groups, both of which try to break through to their allies independently. The western group pushes hard towards Smolensk, suffering horrible casualties. Most of the troops never make it there, with everything but 3 divisions surrendering to the Soviets or being butchered to the last man. The other group - about corps strength - breaks out of the pocket and joins up with 3rd Panzer Group, which might turn out as nothing but an extension of their demise. Soviet casualties are grave as well, however, and the Moscow volunteers are unceremoniously dumped into trains and shipped off as replacements for other Soviet units taking part in the operation. Soviet Removals Phase Disorganised Marker is removed from Bryansk Front. Soviet Detraining Phase  The Soviets have two units in the Rail Movement Box now. They are free to rail in any one of them, none, or both. If they only rail Bryansk back onto the board, the Strategic Reserve marker can be shifted to Leningrad at the start of the Axis Turn. I need Fangz to decide where they go to, if anywhere. Meanwhile, HerpicleOmnicron5 should start thinking about which of his 3 cards he will want to discard at the start of his turn (due to having more than 2 cards in hand). The answer may be posted in the doc or in the thread. The deadline for this is Sunday, December 22, 7 PM GMT. I will then hold a brief Year Summary to both talk about the events of 1941 campaigns and to slow the thread down a bit for Christmas.  Soviet current card hand: 3 cards Axis current card hand: 3 cards 
Tevery Best fucked around with this message at 20:55 on Dec 20, 2013 |
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Dec 20, 2013 20:53
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Leningrad is placed in Leningrad. South front is rebuilt and railed in, 3W of Kalinin. Bryansk front waits in reserve. Fangz fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Dec 20, 2013 |
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Dec 20, 2013 21:10
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On the one hand, those battles pretty much played out exactly the same way as they would have if we'd played our cards successfully. On the other hand, how many times are we going to have to destroy these units before they're called something else? On the other other hand, DAMMIT ALL THEY GOT CENTRAL FRONT BACK INTO PLAY drat YOU ALL! (Seriously, though, does that come out of our VP?)
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Dec 20, 2013 22:43
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Shame you guys don't have those siege guns, Sevastopol is going to be a huge thorn in your side.
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Dec 20, 2013 22:49
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