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Chairchucker posted:Has there ever been a more overrated NPS than Minsc? Cullen from the Dragon Age series. I don't even know why they kept adding him after game one.
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Jun 27, 2020 17:06
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Gooch181 posted:Lol as soon as we finished traveling to the Gnoll hideout Minsc has a hardon for, he accuses me of not being down for his mission and attacked the party. I had the exact same thing happen to me loving Minsc we're right there
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Jun 27, 2020 17:08
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pentyne posted:Cullen from the Dragon Age series. I don't even know why they kept adding him after game one. Yes you do Horney. The motivation for Bioware is always horney.
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Jun 27, 2020 17:10
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Homicidal frustration was always one of the things I found bewildering and funny in BG1 and 2. I remember encountering Keldorn in the sewers and he immediately starts grilling me about who I am and what I'm doing down there. I decided I really didn't like this guy's 'tude, so I just refused to answer his questions until he went berserk and attacked the party. His armor and sword didn't even sell for that much. 
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Jun 27, 2020 17:21
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rope kid posted:Homicidal frustration was always one of the things I found bewildering and funny in BG1 and 2. Face it, you're actually Neutral Evil
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Jun 27, 2020 18:18
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Mr. Fortitude posted:Face it, you're actually Neutral Evil Self Defense is a completely lawful response to a stranger trying to murder you in a sewer, especially a self proclaimed "holy warrior" DING Reputation -8 ....wtf?
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Jun 27, 2020 18:21
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A lot of the NPCs in Baldurs Gate 1 and 2 are absurd assholes. It's quite refreshing really.
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Jun 27, 2020 18:33
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mitochondritom posted:A lot of the NPCs in Baldurs Gate 1 and 2 are absurd assholes. It's quite refreshing really. That's the one thing that gets me when people are worried about Baldur's Gate 3 because Larian has poor writing (which is not wrong although I would argue it applies mostly to the first D:OS). Have they played BG 1 and 2? 80-90% of the dialogue is just uninspired pulp fantasy fare, if not outright catchphrases.
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Jun 27, 2020 18:37
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Chairchucker posted:Has there ever been a more overrated NPS than Minsc? I remember one time I told people about how Minsc (BG2 especially) was overrated. IMO mostly because once his shtick wears off there's really not that much to him and how it'll probably prevent people from putting Edwin in their party since Minsc hates his guts. All I got was a hefty bunch of downvotes and dozens of people quoting Minsc one-liners at me, thereby proving my point in a way. Phlegmish posted:Have they played BG 1 and 2? 80-90% of the dialogue is just uninspired pulp fantasy fare, if not outright catchphrases. This is also why (some of the) criticism on Siege of Dragonspear always puzzled me. Vichan fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Jun 27, 2020 |
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Jun 27, 2020 18:39
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A lot of the "writing" in BG2 is carried by some good VAs (Irenicus, mostly), fantastic music and beautiful background. All those things together make up for the lacklustre dialogue in many parts of the game
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Jun 27, 2020 18:52
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rocketrobot posted:If you get a member of a duo permakilled (their portrait disappears when that happens), then their partner won't leave. Giving Khalid a suicide mission seems appropriate. If you want something less drastic, walk into a pub with both members, send one to the far side of the room, boot them from the party and then flee the area before they can chase you down to drag their buddy away. Also Khaleid is great. Him, Jaheira, Viconia, Minsc, and Imoen were the mainstays in my party.
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Jun 27, 2020 19:04
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First time I hear anyone criticize BG’s dialogue
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Jun 27, 2020 19:38
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It's not even really criticism, it just kind of glides off the eyes, there's not much to say about it. I guess that would make it better than the first D:OS, where a lot of the dialogue is actively annoying.
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Jun 27, 2020 19:42
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I really have to disagree, I think it does a great job injecting flavour and personality into what has become an otherwise generic fantasy setting. Even the randomized one-liners you get the out of commoners are entertaining  
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Jun 27, 2020 20:02
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Khalid's great though. Enough strength (15) to wear full plate, 16 dex, 17 con? I would kill for those stats in pen & paper.
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Jun 27, 2020 20:06
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Suspicious posted:Khalid's great though. Enough strength (15) to wear full plate, 16 dex, 17 con? I would kill for those stats in pen & paper. He's fine, I just wish his morale didn't break so often.
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Jun 27, 2020 20:13
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More funny dialogues:    Probably my favorites:  
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Jun 27, 2020 20:27
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I like Minsc as much as the next person, but after you hear, "Butt kicking for goodness!" for 45,325,094th time, it begins to wear on you. Statwise, I also don't care for Minsc, as he's kind of 'squishy' in regards to melee combat (he gets hit a lot more than it seems like he should), and his low INT makes him vulnerable to mind flayers. In my playthrough of BG2, I took Keldorn over Minsc, as Keldorn not only gets access to the paladin weapons, but the Inquisitor kit makes him more effective against mages. That said, Minsc's weapon proficiencies, coupled with his preferred enemy make him suited to wielding the Mace of Disruption against vampires in BG2 Angry Lobster posted:A lot of the "writing" in BG2 is carried by some good VAs (Irenicus, mostly), fantastic music and beautiful background. All those things together make up for the lacklustre dialogue in many parts of the game That's the thing, though: BG1 was backed by an excellent voice cast. Dee Bradley Baker, Michael Bell, Jeff Bennett, Earl Boen, JIm Cummings, Bill Farmer, Melissa Disney , Michael Gough, Grey Delisle, Jennifer Hale, Jason Marsden, Lani Minella, Rob Paulsen, Kevin Michael Richardson, Neil Ross, Frank Welker; You've got a cast made up of voice actors notable for doing voices for cartoons around that time. You can criticize the writing/characterization for NPCs in BG1 as being shallow, but the campy, over-the-top performances I think is what makes the game memorable: Xan's mopey, dreary musings, Imoen's chipper attitude, Dynaheir's lofty, old-English demeanor, etc. It isn't just limited to the party members either. A lot of the lines for townsfolk/merchants stick with you as well, like Kelddath's, "Don't touch me! I'm super-important!", or Thalantyr's "Why do I like in such a pissant town?", or Winthrop's, "My 'otel's clean as elven arse!" One of the things I found going through BG1 again is that the game has a vein of flippant, tongue-in-cheek humor running throughout. One of the NPCs you find near Lonely Peaks (Sarhedra, I think?) recognizes you as adventures, and gives you a quest to kill some Ogres to the south, but the dialog with her kind of pokes fun of the whole quest-giving aspect (I have to see if I can find the conversation somewhere). There's also that one NPC you meet where you can pick the dialog where you go on the tirade about quests. Couple that with the party members making jokes and references after you click on them so many times, BG1 doesn't take itself too seriously. BG2 carried some of that over (you have the occasional goofy encounter like Nevin and Uncle Lester in the graveyard, and my personal favorite, the Spectator Beholder guarding the treasure chest), but the overall tone is a lot more serious. Still, it's supported by a strong voice cast, with a lot the BG1 cast returning, along with some new people (Tress MacNeille, Cam Clarke, Charlie Adler, Maurice LeMarche, Kath Soucie). One of the big issue I think the EE characters and Siege of Dragonspear suffer from is not having that voice cast. Granted, a lot of the returning characters are voiced by the people who did them originally, but the rest of the cast falls a little flat; they aren't bad, but the lines don't really stick with you as well. One of the things I disliked about SoD right out the gate was talking to the Flaming Fist guards, who all say, "We're more than just mercenaries", which isn't as fun as base BG1, where they scream, "AH SERVE THE FLAMIN' FIST" and "I AM THE LAW!". The overall tone in Siege of Dragonspear is also more serious than BG1. There are still goofy asides, and they're amusing (like the chicken in the well easter egg, or the svirfneblin merchant and his myconid assistant), but they don't quite 'click' with the stuff in the original games. I think one big issue with the EE characters is that because of how they did the dialog recordings, the quality is different that from the original game's, so they stick out like a sore thumb because of it. Max Wilco fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Jun 27, 2020 |
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Jun 27, 2020 20:33
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Angry Lobster posted:He's fine, I just wish his morale didn't break so often. Better part of valor!
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Jun 27, 2020 20:43
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Also Minsc's rage ability is useless because he's too squishy to send anywhere on his own but if you send anyone with him he'll attack them. Honestly though some of the best BG1 NPCs are Xzar/Montaron and Khalid/Jaheira. Jaheira is a great tank, Khalid is good with the bow, Monty is the best thief in the game (because by the time you get Coran he's usually level 4/5 ish and has wasted a bunch of his thief skill points), and Xzar's got the best stats of any mage. Edwin is a better mage in every way but I feel like he's an unfair comparison because Edwin is also a better than the PC. Angry Lobster posted:He's fine, I just wish his morale didn't break so often. He actually has the same morale as Kagain, Garrick, Eldoth and Quayle. I think he only stands out as a coward because morale failure is relatively rare but people use Khalid a lot more than any of those other NPCs.
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Jun 27, 2020 23:44
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Phlegmish posted:That's the one thing that gets me when people are worried about Baldur's Gate 3 because Larian has poor writing (which is not wrong although I would argue it applies mostly to the first D:OS). Have they played BG 1 and 2? 80-90% of the dialogue is just uninspired pulp fantasy fare, if not outright catchphrases. But who could forget the compelling speeches delivered from characters such as Anomen? Or the totally better than Larian's monkey-cheese writing Jen Jensen's stream of hilarity! Turnips! BG was good, but the pedestal some people place it on is ridiculous. Though it's usually done by people who've never played any other game at all.
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Jun 27, 2020 23:45
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Mr. Fortitude posted:Face it, you're actually Neutral Evil 
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Jun 28, 2020 02:17
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A paladin acted like a paladin?!
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Jun 28, 2020 02:25
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steinrokkan posted:Or the totally better than Larian's monkey-cheese writing Jen Jensen's stream of hilarity! Turnips! Jan Jansen's stories were good, actually.
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Jun 28, 2020 02:29
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Suspicious posted:A paladin acted like a paladin?!
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Jun 28, 2020 03:43
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Twas once a heavily brain damaged orc named Ano. Ano was trudging through the forest one day, looking for bull droppings with which he could stuff his mattress, when he happened across a remarkable scene. A brave and noble knight, Jen the Brilliant by name, fought with an evil giant. Ano watched as Jen slew the giant. Then the knight had ridden off to save several small children from a wicked witch, also known as a noblewoman, who was attempting to poison the poor dears. Regardless, Ano promptly cut off the head of the fallen giant and ran home to the Dung Orc village and claimed that he had killed the monster.
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Jun 28, 2020 03:49
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rope kid posted:This seems like a silly hill to die on. A bunch of BG1 and 2 companions react to differences of opinion by engaging in Suicide by Bhaalspawn. I don't think it's interesting from a mechanical or story perspective. They just freak out, go aggro, and get killed by the rest of the party. In the case of Keldorn, it's because you won't answer his questions. Even if it were because of alignment (it's not, AFAIK), it's a case of Lawful Stupid, which is so-called for good reason. In the case of Minsc, it's because you take too long to get to Dynaheir. Other characters' reasons usually aren't much better. This seems to me, a casual unwashed player, to be another side-effect of the rather lackluster implementation of the alignment / 'morality' system in the BG series. That is to say, playing 'evil' doesn't really offer much novelty other than kicking puppies for the sake of kicking puppies, and usually getting less loot for your troubles, so shoe-horning the player into certain kinds of NPC friends at least attempts to convey some flavor of good vs. evil into the gameplay experience. The banters from Edwin and Korgan for example are fairly straightforward "let's kill these mooks for their sweet sweet loots" which is supposedly evil (although this tends to be the main motivation for playing the game to be begin with...), and both BG games have stupid good NPCs who won't shut the gently caress up about valor or honor, etc. These dudes and dudettes also tend to aggro every NPC friend with the evil sticker on, so there you go. This is a conversation that happens in this thread every so often, but why not: The obvious comparisons for the good v. evil implementation in contemporary(-ish) games are the Fallouts (1 + 2) and PS: Torment. Torment's story is explicitly about the player character and what kind of person they are (and you can definitely be a really evil son of a bitch) and were previous times around, and indeed even the NPC friends are all 'just' some sort of morality plays for the player to engage with, both within the story arc of the game and as memories of what the other incarnations were up to. BG1's plot is about discovering the player character is a god-child, and also that there's a huge plot to gavriloprinzp the entire Sword Coast - Amn region, by your half-brother as it turns out. There could be room here to explore either the player 'succumbing' to be a murderous bastard for the sake of their daddy (Sarevok 2.0?), or conversely grappling with the 'demands' of their good alignment in the face of their blood heritage, but I guess the technical and game production restrictions of ~1998 didn't have room. So, there's the rather clumsy reputation system and potential friends reacting to it, and each other's alignments. But on the other hand, you've got things like Korgan's crush on Mazzy, it's not all bad 
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Jun 28, 2020 06:42
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Mazzy taking Valygar on as a squire is also quite charming.
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Jun 28, 2020 09:43
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I know it was made in 1998 but I always felt it's dumb and lazy that evil BG1 NPCs prior to joining your party react poorly to low reputation.
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Jun 28, 2020 09:46
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Suspicious posted:I know it was made in 1998 but I always felt it's dumb and lazy that evil BG1 NPCs prior to joining your party react poorly to low reputation. The reputation system was kind of a stone around your neck in all ways. It ended up being you'd hit 18 and then have to find a isolated peasant to murder for the rep drop so your evil members don't decided they suddenly had enough when you collect $30k for killing a evil monster. Like, Korgan, I'm about to drop a fat stack of loot and cash in your lap and we just murdered our way through a corrupt cult, wtf is your problem? Almost as dumb as Jaheira "We must strive to maintain BALALCE!" like okay, fine, I'll definitely kill this poor defenseless person instead of stealing the quest item because your stupid Druid beliefs mean if too many people like us it's bad. ....wait, aren't the Harpers basically an anti-establishment terrorist group? Like their mission statement would permit them to murder a just and noble ruler who's becoming mega-powerful and has massive influence? pentyne fucked around with this message at 10:32 on Jun 28, 2020 |
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Jun 28, 2020 10:28
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Rappaport posted:But on the other hand, you've got things like Korgan's crush on Mazzy, it's not all bad "Be aware, Mazzy, I've something long, hard and low to the ground ye're free to touch and fondle. Child, no need to glare! 'Twas me axe I were referring to."
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Jun 28, 2020 10:32
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I think BG2 just needed more innocent civilians worth killing imo, or to flag more of the people as innocent. BG1 had a bunch of people who it's worth to murder for their items or XP, especially early on, and while it makes no sense from a RP perspective at least from a powergame POV it means you aren't simply killing a civilian for the sake of -ve rep.
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Jun 28, 2020 11:06
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Vichan posted:"Be aware, Mazzy, I've something long, hard and low to the ground ye're free to touch and fondle. Child, no need to glare! 'Twas me axe I were referring to." He's a mass murderer, the alternative would be going all Patrick Bateman about his affections. Though I suppose that'd made for more interesting evil character dialogue! I've never tried the Edwin romance mod, but I'd expect that from him.
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Jun 28, 2020 11:34
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My issues with alignment in general is that nobody is perfect. Even someone with good intentions and wants to help the poor and downtrodden are bound to have lapses of judgment at some point in their life. This is basically my way of saying that RPGs should have personality traits rather than rigid alignment or moral compasses. I understand that'd be a nightmare to implement though, so it'd probably only work on smaller scale RPGs.
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Jun 28, 2020 11:50
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I mean, unless I'm misunderstanding what you're envisaging, Pillars of Eternity does almost exactly this. Rather than an Alignment, you have Reputations, such as Benevolent or Rational. You gain Reputations from actions and dialogue choices you take, and it affects how people treat you, and none of the Reputations cancel each other out.
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Jun 28, 2020 13:08
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Zeerust posted:I mean, unless I'm misunderstanding what you're envisaging, Pillars of Eternity does almost exactly this. Rather than an Alignment, you have Reputations, such as Benevolent or Rational. You gain Reputations from actions and dialogue choices you take, and it affects how people treat you, and none of the Reputations cancel each other out. You could level up each trait up to level 4 and each could be applied as optional choices. I really liked it, going all in on certain traits for a RP aspect was really rewarding when you hit level 4 and you start seeing new options for conversation or a dialogue that triggers specifically because it recognizes your trait level. quote:There are 10 distinct personality types the players can be disposed toward. The following is a list of them, and examples of how they might be judged:
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Jun 28, 2020 13:18
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I liked it as well, I think the only weird thing was that focusing down on dialogue choices that give you certain reputations could make your character appear completely deranged. It made playing Paladins interesting, though!
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Jun 28, 2020 17:23
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If anyone is interested on the various shortcomings of the Disposition/Reputation/Relationship mechanics in Deadfire, I did a talk on it a few months ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OrUhqgueAE&t=420s The short summary is that getting overly mechanical makes things harder for designers, rather than easier.
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Jun 28, 2020 18:17
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pentyne posted:....wait, aren't the Harpers basically an anti-establishment terrorist group? Like their mission statement would permit them to murder a just and noble ruler who's becoming mega-powerful and has massive influence? No, the Harpers will work for and with good, just, fair rulers. They don't believe in monarchy for its own sake, and will work to depose rulers they think are evil or unjust, but the mere existence of a government head isn't a problem for them. You could maybe argue for the Harpers working against a ruler whose nation gets TOO big, but that isn't really how good nations work in the Realms, instead being more loose confederations of city-states. The only exception is Cormyr, which the Harpers have worked for and against at various times.
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Jun 28, 2020 18:22
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is there a mod or something to prevent evil party members from leaving at high rep for BGEE? I want to try an evil party but being an evil PC is lame and metagaming the rep system is also lame
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Jun 28, 2020 21:27
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