|
Angry Lobster posted:Is that time of the year again? Man, time sure flies. seems to come earlier every year
|
#
?
Dec 1, 2021 04:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 15:10 |
|
|
El Grillo posted:I did not expect to be seeing articles still being written about NWN in TYOOL 2021. The world has gone insane. It is really grand to see a genuine passion project/labour of love, but I'd rather see more for NWN2. I like NWN2 for being party-based, which NWN1 is not. I don't mind single-character RPGs in games like Skyrim where the PC can do anything he cares to do, but in RPGs with specalised class systems, and D&D of any version most definitely counts, I want to be able to mix-and-match skills.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 02:02
|
|
|
Honestly I have felt from about 3 months after its launch that NWN2 can't be saved. That software was a gigantic mess at launch and it's really never been fixed. All the basic stuff; camera, UI, animations, the way areas and area transitions have to be made, hell even the visuals, it's almost ubiquitously bad. I wished for ages that NWN2 would get fixed somehow but it hasn't been and I can't see it happening. NWN1 has the advantage of being an extremely solid game in terms of its core functionality. The real question to me would be whether some of the additional party features you'd like, could be added. I don't play single player much these days so I'm not even sure what it is about NWN1's henchman system that is lacking lol. Though I am sure it is lacking a lot - presumably, finer control over henchmen? Interestingly enough the DM client allows for directing groups of NPCs (with click and drag selection) etc, so there doesn't seem to be any real reason that sort of functionality couldn't be added to the single player game. Related - rumour on the grapevine is that WoTC effectively killed a new module BD were working on for NWN, which is why the assets being developed for that module got released for free a few days ago: https://twitter.com/TrentOster/status/1465779301026988034?t=q-ugCsyWjaHbQ2ghXfjrQA&s=19
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 03:24
|
|
|
well that sucks
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 03:46
|
|
|
I kinda feel NWN2 is a perfectly fine game and to this day don’t understand the issues with the camera. It controls just the same as NWN1, but with more view modes and custom options. But stick on “exploration” and it controls just the same. It’s a great game to this day.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 05:54
|
|
|
I did a trial iron man run for fun, and also because I usually can't participate in the thread properly since I'm stuck with my laptop during the holidays!, and welp. Did FAI stuff, recruited Viconia, hoofed it to Beregost, did all the little things there, got Miriam's letter and the boots of stealth, killed Bassilus even, that scared me, and then I went to get the short sword +2. The knobgoblins got scared of my party, ran away, I gave chase, CHARNAME was ambushed by a ghast, held, dead in two hits. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 06:03
|
|
|
chaosapiant posted:I kinda feel NWN2 is a perfectly fine game and to this day don’t understand the issues with the camera. It controls just the same as NWN1, but with more view modes and custom options. But stick on “exploration” and it controls just the same. It’s a great game to this day. That wasn't present at release. They revised the camera several times with patches and expansions. Unfortunately it never played nice with stuff like slopes and elevations, which NWN1 had less to deal with.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 09:31
|
|
|
El Grillo posted:Related - rumour on the grapevine is that WoTC effectively killed a new module BD were working on for NWN, which is why the assets being developed for that module got released for free a few days ago: I will never forgive WoTC for axing Shadowguard and Witch's Wake... 
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 10:45
|
|
|
Why does WoTC hate making money?
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 12:37
|
|
|
I think the reason they wouldn't allow BD to do a new module for NWN:EE is because they don't want pre-5e stuff being made, maybe? Can't remember whether I heard that somewhere or it's just speculation on my own part.
El Grillo fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Dec 2, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 12:53
|
|
|
I mean, let's be honest, the audience for a new NWN module in 2021 is vanishingly small.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 13:17
|
|
|
Fair Bear Maiden posted:I mean, let's be honest, the audience for a new NWN module in 2021 is vanishingly small. I feel really bad for Ossian Studios, they finally get to release Darkness over Daggerford as a premium module but most of the fanbase has moved on... 
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 13:28
|
|
|
I think someone in this thread said that the source code for NWN2 got lost and that's why there won't be an EE. I could easily be misremembering, though.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 13:48
|
|
|
Empty Sandwich posted:I think someone in this thread said that the source code for NWN2 got lost and that's why there won't be an EE. You're probably thinking of Icewind Dale 2. I'm not sure why there hasn't been an Enhanced Edition for NWN2, although Beamdog's talked about wanting to move on from those projects, and also there's relatively less attachment because Trent Oster, their founder, worked on the original NWN but didn't work on NWN2 and considers it an inferior project for batshit reasons (he thinks that it moved away from the D&D ideal they were building towards because as a player in D&D you have a character sheet and you're not supposed to build a party... Trent... what????). I think there were also rumors of there needing to be approval on Obsidian's end, although to be honest, I fail to imagine a situation in which Obsidian's founders don't sign on it, especially if it guaranteed them a cut of the revenue.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 13:53
|
|
|
Fair Bear Maiden posted:You're probably thinking of Icewind Dale 2. dammit! yep.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 14:04
|
|
|
Rappaport posted:I did a trial iron man run for fun, and also because I usually can't participate in the thread properly since I'm stuck with my laptop during the holidays!, and welp. Did FAI stuff, recruited Viconia, hoofed it to Beregost, did all the little things there, got Miriam's letter and the boots of stealth, killed Bassilus even, that scared me, and then I went to get the short sword +2. The knobgoblins got scared of my party, ran away, I gave chase, CHARNAME was ambushed by a ghast, held, dead in two hits.  try again!
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 14:20
|
|
|
Fair Bear Maiden posted:(he thinks that it moved away from the D&D ideal they were building towards because as a player in D&D you have a character sheet and you're not supposed to build a party... Trent... what????). He's right. NWN is the most social modern D&D computer game as a result!
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 15:01
|
|
|
Also modding the henchman limit is very easy and involves adding a single line to the startup scripts. The hard cap is 255 iirc. Why not take literally every npc with you?
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 15:06
|
|
|
El Grillo posted:https://twitter.com/TrentOster/status/1465779301026988034?t=q-ugCsyWjaHbQ2ghXfjrQA&s=19 Everything I read from or about Beamdog just makes me think of them as the "Everything That Can Go Wrong For Us, Will"-The Company. How on earth do they even stay open
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 15:21
|
|
|
Fair Bear Maiden posted:I mean, let's be honest, the audience for a new NWN module in 2021 is vanishingly small. Maybe WoTC are also right in that nobody really wants 3rd edition/3.5e stuff nowadays. I presume that the reason BD (says that they) invested a lot of money in a visual overhaul for the cancelled premium module is because base NWN looks pretty bad and they think that changing that, could change the extent of its wider appeal. Improved visuals obviously aren't a sure fire way to increase its appeal or anything, but maybe they could make a difference. Hell, even with significant upgrades we now have for it, it doesn't look anywhere near as good as modern games look, but still maybe there would be a decent-if-small-sized potential audience out there for a NWN with up-to-date visuals. e: Re the above, in case of interest to anyone who used to play NWN - a couple of random shot of our PWs that shows how the game looks with the visual improvements... kind of blows my mind lol:    Miles ahead of OG NWN visuals. ...ok also I can't resist posting this stuff, huge new community-made tilesets are still being produced for this 19-year-old game, it is ridiculous:  
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 15:24
|
|
|
DourCricket posted:Everything I read from or about Beamdog just makes me think of them as the "Everything That Can Go Wrong For Us, Will"-The Company. How on earth do they even stay open
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 15:26
|
|
|
GorfZaplen posted:Also modding the henchman limit is very easy and involves adding a single line to the startup scripts. The hard cap is 255 iirc. Why not take literally every npc with you? I genuinely can't tell if this is a gimmick or not, tbh. Also, IMHO NWN's life as a social game mostly comes down to the ease of setting up private worlds and the power of its toolset and its online suit, not the fact that you're arbitrarily limited to controlling one character + henchmen. NWN2 clearly suffered from having tools that were less reliable and more difficult to use, and for having online features that came in hot and late compared to its predecessor. Those new 3D assets for NWN look... okay, but they don't seem to fully match together. Still neat to see the game updated to that degree though.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 15:38
|
|
|
El Grillo posted:Honestly I have felt from about 3 months after its launch that NWN2 can't be saved. That software was a gigantic mess at launch and it's really never been fixed. All the basic stuff; camera, UI, animations, the way areas and area transitions have to be made, hell even the visuals, it's almost ubiquitously bad. The problem with the henchman system is that that AI is poor and you're always going to have a gap in the skillset you're trying to cover. In my current playthrough, I'm using Daelen, the Barbarian henchman, to serve as the muscle for my Bard. However, I have issues with traps and locks. But if I took the rogue henchman, I'd basically lose all my offensive ability. This kind of seeps into the encounter design as well, since I basically just use my bard song and let Daelan and a summoned Dire Bear delete all the enemies while I use my bow and cast dispel magic when needed. I somewhat see Trent's point about how a party reduces the investment in the PC character, but I really don't think you can have a tactically interesting D&D game with just a PC and a henchman. I thought the party system was in fine in NWN2, but it also ran into the limitation of how rogues were the only class who could handle traps effectively, so you had to have one in the party or just tank the traps. That's more of a 3E systems issue though. The narrative of NWN2 was firmly in the "okay" territory for me and the gameplay was fine except for a few gotcha points in the campaign if your PC didn't have much toe to toe combat ability (I was a single class rogue who had to dual into warrior).
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 15:58
|
|
|
Vargatron posted:The problem with the henchman system is that that AI is poor and you're always going to have a gap in the skillset you're trying to cover. This sums up perfectly what I don't like about NWN1.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 16:20
|
|
|
Yeah I definitely wouldn't play NWN1 with the base game's AI. It was rubbish. FYI I think the most commonly used upgrade to henchman AI is Tony K's, FYI: https://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn1/hakpak/original-hakpak/henchman-inventory-battle-ai-mod I haven't tried it but it gets talked about a lot. Similarly, the base game's enemy AI is awful too, I wouldn't play without having custom AI to fight against. I think Tony K's system upgrades their AI too, though I use a different system for the spawns on our PW servers. I agree also that these kinds of RPGs aren't really any good for solo'ing, be it online or in the single player campaigns. It is D&D after all. El Grillo fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Dec 2, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 17:10
|
|
|
I haven’t heard played NWN1 in forever but I remember my favorite method was playing a wizard, with a fairy familiar for lockpicking. Add the cleric for healing and undead turning, and you sail through a lot of the bullshit, especially if you abuse the resting mechanic.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 17:24
|
|
|
Fair Bear Maiden posted:You're probably thinking of Icewind Dale 2. I'm not sure why there hasn't been an Enhanced Edition for NWN2, although Beamdog's talked about wanting to move on from those projects, and also there's relatively less attachment because Trent Oster, their founder, worked on the original NWN but didn't work on NWN2 and considers it an inferior project for batshit reasons (he thinks that it moved away from the D&D ideal they were building towards because as a player in D&D you have a character sheet and you're not supposed to build a party... Trent... what????). Nah, that tracks. IIRC, the Neverwinter Nights was originally designed to facilitate online D&D play with each player controlling one character (plus DMs), and the modules working as basically a game map. The pseudo-MUD online servers were the point and the fact that you could build single player campaigns was a bonus. NWN2 is much more "Infinity Engine but 3d" with some (worse) map making stuff thrown in. As similar as they are, the second had a very different focus. Lucas Archer posted:I haven’t heard played NWN1 in forever but I remember my favorite method was playing a wizard, with a fairy familiar for lockpicking. Add the cleric for healing and undead turning, and you sail through a lot of the bullshit, especially if you abuse the resting mechanic. I remember getting softlocked in the original NWN campaign because the one place they take away your ability to rest is between the two last boss fights (and there's no way to leave the area). Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Dec 2, 2021 |
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 18:04
|
|
|
Find it very odd that beamdog have Steam Cloud syncing turned off by default, at least in BGEE. What's the purpose? If it's listed as a feature in the store and there's no mention of it when saving. (I'm grumpy at this because it led me to lose a lot of progress in my first run-through.)
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 18:17
|
|
|
NWN2 deserves a remaster or update if only to make it easier for more people to play MotB
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 18:18
|
|
|
They're working on something using UE4 related now. Hopefully not with WOTC!
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 18:43
|
|
|
Maenad posted:Find it very odd that beamdog have Steam Cloud syncing turned off by default, at least in BGEE. What's the purpose? If it's listed as a feature in the store and there's no mention of it when saving.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 18:51
|
|
|
Fair Bear Maiden posted:I genuinely can't tell if this is a gimmick or not, tbh. Sorry I wasn't clear, I'm not saying henchman make the game social, but forcong you to have one character does force you to make parties in multiplayer. The henchman thing was just a fun aside. Just add this to the OnModuleLoad script of the module you want to play: void main() { SetMaxHenchmen(100); } I double checked and the max is 100, which is still more than you could reasonably have in a game. What I like to do is add basic npcs like guards that you can recruit, or orcs so I can play an orcish warchief type without installing game breaking mods.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 19:13
|
|
|
If you're setting out to make a game that replicates "the tabletop experience" thennrestricting players to one character seems reasonable. I think they underestimated how antisocial the rpg fanbase is and in theirblater, single player oriented material it definitely held them back! But I can see where the guy is coming from is what I'm saying!
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 19:23
|
|
|
Psycho Landlord posted:NWN2 deserves a remaster or update if only to make it easier for more people to play MotB NWN2 deserves a lot more, but it's not likely we'll see any of it. It's a great mid 2000s crpg that should've gotten the same level of success as KOTOR but was just too bug ridden for mass appeal. With a handful of mods, a guide for running the stronghold, and some good character builds (3.5 is not newbie friendly in the slightest), the game is perfectly fine. The only weird issue is to always make new save files each time because there's a bug that corrupts save files when it's constantly being rewritten.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 19:51
|
|
|
GorfZaplen posted:Sorry I wasn't clear, I'm not saying henchman make the game social, but forcong you to have one character does force you to make parties in multiplayer. I think this is a non-problem, to be honest, and I'm not aware of people playing multiplayer in NWN2 by making multiple characters. Maybe in mods people did a Divinity: Original Sin thing and took control of multiple characters each? Which I think is perfectly fine for co-oping, although you run into the problem of the base campaigns not at all being designed for MP, with the possible exception of Storm of Zehir. Also, IIRC the expansion in NWN gave you more henchmen to control, although you still don't actually control them in single-player, which is the real problem. And now I'm suddenly remembering the fact that henchmen didn't even actually level-up but that the system behind the scenes just... gave you a different version of the character every few levels.  I wasted my teenage years on Neverwinter Nights, it was a good game, but goddamn, it was weird.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 20:48
|
|
|
Fair Bear Maiden posted:I think this is a non-problem, to be honest, and I'm not aware of people playing multiplayer in NWN2 by making multiple characters. Maybe in mods people did a Divinity: Original Sin thing and took control of multiple characters each? Which I think is perfectly fine for co-oping, although you run into the problem of the base campaigns not at all being designed for MP, with the possible exception of Storm of Zehir. I'm not saying it's a problem! I just see where Trent Oster is coming from!
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 21:29
|
|
|
NWN2 is without question one of the ugliest games I have ever played in my life. The attempt to move to something more quasi-realistic just made everything look hideous, like weird melty dolls. At least NWN1 was cartoonish and had no pretenses of looking real.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 21:45
|
|
|
If that's Oster's position, why did they remake the Infinity Engine games?
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 21:59
|
|
|
NWN2 was very unfortunate in that it was made around the time where video game graphics had gotten really good at rendering realistic environments, but applying those same techniques to characters hadn't quite matured yet to the point where you could reliably avoid the uncanny valley.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 22:02
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 25, 2024 15:10 |
|
|
The NWN1 PRC has support for player-created henchmen as per the P&P rules (as the PRC usually does), but it's janky even by PRC standards and the AI is unchanged and so incapable of using 90% of PRC features.
|
|
#
?
Dec 2, 2021 22:29
|
|
