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Pesky Splinter posted:I posted all the news I could find about it in the DMC thread, for nearly two years. Two years of bitterness. It was almost compulsion - I wanted to see how far down the rabbit hole it went. You really don't know how far that rabbit hole goes down. Let me give you a small example: When the series was first created Hideki Kamiyama originally came up with Dante, one of the things he wanted to do was to create a character who was a badass and didn't smoke. A bit of an odd thing to focus on but there you have it. So anyways, what was the first thing the hip, new Dante was shown doing? Smoking a cigarette of course because that's what all the cool kid do. That's not the only example of them getting everything wrong but it's a good place to start. There's so much of it that I don't think other people who hate this game really know all of it. Hell I'd like to be something of a counterpoint to anyone who likes this game. With BumFluff permission of course.
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Nov 26, 2013 19:12
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Okay now then since people are talking about it let's start tearing apart this game with the first thing people complained about New Dante: First off let's compare his character design to Old Dante:  One thing that I always liked about back in the day was that they really were able to get character design down to an art. Not so much these days as you can see. For a start you can see that Old Dante is rather fashionably dressed, That actually fits in rather well with the old games reoccuring theme of Style is Substance. He's wearing and drat fine Red longcoat. Now you see Longcoats have been a sign of badassery since the Dusters of the Old West so that has been communicated. Also the Color red is used in Japanese culture to denote that someone has heroic characteristics so it also communicates that. He also always was shown with an smug little smirk on his face taht was basically saying "Yeah, I'm going to kick your rear end, and I'm going to look good doing it too." Now also DMC 3 and 4 did some other things with his design that were kind of neat. In 3 he didn't have a shirt on. You may think that was just for fanservices sake but it also made him look younger. communicated that this was a younger and less experienced Dante who was just starting out. In 4 as you can faintly see they did the Opposite, they gave him facial hair making him look older and more experienced and contrasting him with young inexperienced Nero.  New Dante just looks like a mangy crackhead. In fact I'm just going to call him Mangy Crackhead from now on. Anyways That's about all I can say about him really. On the whole it's a rather lame and boring design and you really can't say anything else about it. Yeah he has the Longcoat. But that's now more black red so it's less striking. He's also trying to give his best Kubrick Stare and it just doesn't work with the lighting, It instead make him look uglier. That's about all I can say about him. Anyways how he was introduced is also important. Dante was introduced in rather badass ways in the old games usually kicking the poo poo out of some minions in amusing ways. Riding a hapless minion like a skateboad while eating a slice of pizza, Impaling a mook on a sword and using him as a cudgel to smash the poo poo out of some other hapless minion. So what does Mangy Crackhead do to establish his badass cred? He goes to a bar, drinks booze straight out of the bottle and has sex with two strippers. I would think that's cool, if I was twelve and didn't come from a long proud line of boozehounds who know how to drink properly. In fact that sums up this game rather well I think. It's trying to be cool but ultimately gets it's idea of what cool is from a twelve year old so to anyone who knows what a hangover feels like, Mangy Crackhead is just that and Mangy Crackhead that you avoid like the plague because who know what diseases he's carrying. This game is designed to appeal to twelve year olds. Hence the Screamo/Dubstep music that is prevalent in the game and the OMG SO DEEP social commentary with the main villan being a banker. I'll get to that in time though.
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Nov 26, 2013 20:46
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funky not a junkie posted:How is any of this different from the other dmc games Well we'll see later, just remember that one of the things that Alex Garland shot down when they were making enslaved was during the opening level they were going to have the main character just randomly kick someone else off the falling ship to show that he was a bit of a badass. I'll explain more when we get there.
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Nov 26, 2013 23:26
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Okay then, now we are formal introduced to Vergil and Kat. The biggest problem with Virgil is that he is now basically Morpheous from the Matrix, no really, they even wear similar sweaters at one point. I'll get to Kat later. And now then I would like to point out a plot hole that sums up what's the biggest problem that people have with Mangy Crackhead: This will come up later but it's worth mentioning now because it's actually more relevant. SO Mundus doesn't know about Vergil who has created an organization to overthrow him but he instantly knows about Mangy Crackhead who has just been as far as we know been doing nothing with his life. The reason for this is because Mangy Crackhead is because he is a Mary Sue. Further proof of this is that besides the fact that he looks like Tameem and more importantly he's the Only One who can do these Dangerous jobs for the order. Now Dante also had some of the Mary Sue traits but that was mostly avoided because the old game were a lot more self aware and there were other character who were just tough as he was. I'll talk more about that when I talk about all the little things that bother me about Kat.
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Nov 29, 2013 20:12
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MJ12 posted:I mean seriously, Dante in this is this gigantic unlikable douchebag with no apparent redeeming qualities. I don't know how every single writer, voice actor, executive, or anyone with any influence at all didn't catch this and go "wait a minute, our main character is literally so unlikable that people are probably cheering for the blatantly evil demons." It's painfully Obvious that Alex Garland played a less significant role in this game. It's astound how bad this game's story is especially when you compair it to Ninja Theory's previous game Enslaved. A significant part of that I think can be attributed to Alex Garland. He's a drat good writer, last year's Dredd, 28 Days Later, Sunshine it's all miles better than this crap. It's honestly baffiling that Mangy Crackhead's characterization managed to get past him. I suppose though he had a lot of other projects on his plate at the time though. But really I think that Tameem just threw a bitchfit and Alex had been drinking the previous night and just didn't want to deal with it that day.
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Nov 30, 2013 06:25
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That is exactily what happened, it was going to be it's own seperate thing but then someone decided to turn it into a sequel to Devil May Cry.
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Dec 1, 2013 22:02
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Kurieg posted:To be fair nowadays this is as much a function of Capcom itself as anything else. Just look at what happened to the Megaman franchise. Actually with Megaman it's more that they don't really know what to do with the series. I posted in the Current Megaman Legends that capcom doesn't know what to do with megaman. On one had you have a good recognizable brand with a soild following, on the other hand six gen Megaman Console games all were finanachial bombs and were critically panned. So for a company with an idiotic No Risks Business Policy like Capcom, you can see why Capcom doesn't know what to do with. With Devil May Cry it's more like they were trying to exploit the brand and it backfired.
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Dec 3, 2013 23:20
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toasterwarrior posted:Both DMC3 & 4 had some fluff pieces before release that never made it to the west. 3 had a prequel manga that explains why Vergil and Dante are already trying to murder each other instead of being surprised at how the other survived their childhood ordeal. Actually that manga series was never finished, they got two volumes out before the writer quit and capcom just decided not to finish it.
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Dec 4, 2013 02:04
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Since there was nothing that hasn't really been mentioned before brought up (Well except Kat but I'm saving taht one still) I'll mention something that does bother me: Ebony & Ivory  In the old games they were a pair of heavilly customized Colt M1911A1's. Now the M1911 is a gun with a lot of history behind it. It was the official sidearm of the Military until the late 80's and it still is even used by some servicemen today. Not bad for a gun that's over a centry old. It is hailed as a good dependable firearm by both collectors and military specialists alike. So it makes sense that Dante would use a pair of them when you consider that his profession is a Devil hunter. Now for that New and "hip" Ebony & Ivory:  They're a pair of desert eagles. Now why this bothers me so is that The Desert Eagle is basically the Mid Life crisis Prosche of firearms. Desert Eagles are big and heavy and while they pack a punch they are quite slow to fire and are inaccurate as all hell. They only got into popular culture because they were used in action movies becasue they are big and flashy. So they only people who would use them in real life are Middle age men and men with tiny Penises. What else bothers me about the new Ebony & Ivory is also the girp. As I'm sure people are aware of is that the magazine of almost every handgun is stored in the grip. So looking at these guns you have to ask where the hell do the bullets go? The grip has the wierd curve to it and doesn't look like you can insert a Magazine into it. Now before anyone argues that they only exist in Limbo I would point out you're wrong because we can see one of the Strippers that Mangy Crackhead bangs in the beginning of the game playing with them when they're not in Limbo, and Later we will see Mangy Crackhead fire them outside of Limbo. So what I'm saying is that the only reason they got turned into Desert Eagles is because Tameem has a tiny dick and thought that it would look cool. Also when you compare the guns used in the original game you can see that with the exception of Nero's Double Barreled revolver and maybe Lady's big fuckoff Rocket Launcher they are all either practical firearms or demonic weapons of some kind. Now you could argue that because Japan has stricter gun control laws than in the States that they don't need to be as big or as flashy to be impressive but really I think it' more that it was just a cool little detail that they put into the old games.
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Dec 13, 2013 22:00
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Nihilarian posted:IIRC, Dante makes bullets with his Devil Powers. I'm pretty sure this is established canon since the first game, BTW. True, but it seems that Mangy Crackhead can only use his abilities in Limbo, so it doesn't explain anything about him using them in the real world. Nihilarian posted:And I doubt that every man who uses a desert eagle is middle aged or has a small dick. Not that I'm gonna check.
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Dec 13, 2013 22:30
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Pesky Splinter posted:
To put if another way, Remember the Matrix or Inception and how they went into great detail to talk about what you can and can't do in the Matrix/Dream world. We don't get anything like that in this game though. David D. Davidson fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Dec 14, 2013 |
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Dec 14, 2013 00:25
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SSNeoman posted:Speaking of which, I find that new Dante doesn't really antagonize the villains as much as old Dante. In DMC4 Dante would kick the seeds back at Echidna in this hilarious pinball fashion. Yeah that's the reason why I even refuse to Mangy Crackhead Dante, he has nothing that made the original Dante such a fun and awesome character, he's just some angry mangy crackhead who we are told we are supposed to like and is supposed to be sympathetic and they honestly don't know how to do that very well. I'll talk a bit more about this when I talk about Kat and all my beefs with her character later.
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Dec 14, 2013 21:45
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Just wait you'll hate both Mangy Crackhead and Kat by the end of the game.
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Dec 15, 2013 01:17
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Veyrall posted:the only thing I noticed about her was the Rocket Launcher Bayonet. Well it's not impractical when you wind up shooting the creep who rescued you in the face from a 2000 story while he's still dangling you over the drop.  That must be one drat good Bayonet especially when you consider that she was able to jam it into solid stone and it could still hold her body weight. Anyways yeah I will give this game some credit the level design and art direction is pretty drat good. Shame about everything else though. David D. Davidson fucked around with this message at 07:00 on Dec 15, 2013 |
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Dec 15, 2013 06:56
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To draw parallels between what happened to Sparta to Vergil's adopted parents, also laziness. This doesn't bother me. Instead what bothers me about this is that it actually makes a pretty big plot hole even wider. How come Mundus doesn't know about Vergil? I mean yeah he only believed that there was one child but still why didn't a brilliant kid making a revolutionary new surveillance system and becoming a multi-millionare and later disappearing followed by receiving threats from a masked man who knows the truth about everything not give Vergil away so much sooner? All MC has been doing is getting shitfaced and and having angel orgies. It just doesn't make sense.
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Dec 15, 2013 20:12
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OKay first off the gently caress you exchange. What I believed happened was this. So Tameem gets to this part when writing and he wants MC and the Succubus to have some sort of witty exchange but he can't think of anything so he either writes it in there thinking that he'll come up with something later but forgets about it. That or he just writes "Dante and Succubus have a witty exchange" into the script and when Tim Phillips and Race Davies got to recording this Tameem just told them to improvise and Tameem decided that it was good enough. Also I'm pretty sure that the reason that it's called a Succubus is so that they could have the "Hey Succubus! You Suck!" line. And now the boss fights. Remember the bosses from the previous Devil May Cry games. In the first game you fought phantom who was this awesome Lava Spider/Scorpion thing. The Third game had like a shitton of awesome bosses too. There was Cerberus who was this three headed Ice dog, then there was angi and Ruda who were a pair of living swords who were possessing a pair of headless bodies and when you beat one the one you didn't beat would pick up the one you did and get even harder to kill. And while there wern't as many on DMC4 they were still pretty cool too like Berial who was a fifteen feet tall flaming Centaur demon thing there was also giant Ice toad and the Plant snake thing. They were on the whole some pretty memorable boss fights and honest I didn't even mind fighting them again as Dante in Devil May Cry 4. Now in DmC the boss fights all suck, none of them feel like a test of your skills like good boss fights should. ALso as I implied above it seems that the only reason they called this fight a succubus was so they could in a really easy and lame one liner. YOu see in folklore the Succubus is supposed to be a beautiful woman who would vist men in their sleep so she could absorb their life force through sex. It was a way for people to explain away Nocturnal Ejaculations and the accompanying wet dreams. I don't think the Succubus in this game would be doing that anytime soon.
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Dec 17, 2013 19:40
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As for the misogyny thing that's one of my biggest issues for this game especially compaired to the Older games. I'm personally saving that rant for about three or four updates from now. But it's a really bad one. For the people who havn't played the original games let me explain one thing. This is something that this game got so goddamn wrong it's not even funny. Hell even Devil My Cry 2 got this thing right.
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Dec 21, 2013 00:55
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Yeah that's kind of a dumb thing that I wanted to talk about. But I plan on talking about it after that happens since it would also fit in with something I wanted to discuss about that. So instead let's talk about the performances of the voice actors. They suck. Looking at the principal cast (Tim Phillipps, David de Lautour, Sage Mears, Louis Herthum and Robin Riker if you would like to look them up for yourself) on IMDB it not one of them has any other Voice acting credit to their names, either before or after this game. That means instead of hiring out competent voice actors, they instead hired a bunch of one off characters from TV shows. Odds are Steve Blum or Nolan North would have asked from the same amount of money and would have done a much better job at it too. You see while people like to comment that they are in everything these days. There's a drat good reason for that. They are both a lot cheaper than hiring out hollywood talent and when you put them in the right roles they can give amazing performances. Instead they just hired out some of the dullest talent on tv. It's just baffling.
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Jan 3, 2014 01:40
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Oxxidation posted:There is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to hire talent outside of the Blum/North/Clarke/Baker Power Hour, this is a stupid complaint. And I don't have anything against those guys! But it's highly unlikely their presence would have uplifted the script in any way. You're right there is nothing wrong with doing that. The problem lies with the actors they did hire. Their performances just don't have anything really that memorable to them. Troy Baker would have probably put the same considerable work at making MC believable that he did for for Jake Muller in Resident Evil 6. Steve Blum's raspy voice would have added some actual menace to Mundus. Nolan North would have added a definite level of smugness to Bob Barbas and have actually made him a proper parody of Sean Hannity rather than just some boring non specific Fox News pundit. Tara Strong or Jennifer Hale would have actually given Kat a much needed backbone. Instead what we got was a load of boring. David D. Davidson fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Jan 3, 2014 |
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Jan 3, 2014 01:52
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Also in the anime, everyone who Dante interacts with on a daily basis calls him out on his bullshit at least twice. At least one episode ended with him being denied payment for a job he did because he destroyed a bridge.
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Jan 3, 2014 06:26
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It's kind of a bad habit of Dante. It's happened in every game and even in the anime series. Well not DMC 2 but it happened twice in DMC 1 so it evens out. On that note. I don't really like the new Devil Trigger in this game. It's mecanics are kind of crap for reasons stated earlier. I also suspect that the reason they went with it just turning his hair white and his coat red was because someone looked at how loving bad people responded to the new and "Improved" "Dante" and told Tameem and Ninja theory to do something about it and it was too late in the development cycle to really do anything else and one other thing we will see at the end of the game. I don't really have any evidence backing this up aside from something odd I noticed about the other thing that I'll talk about it. Also in the old games getting Dante and Nero stabbed is kind of how Devil Trigger is awakened. I honestly like it unlocking like that more. IT gives it more of a dramatic flare and made for a good HOLY loving poo poo moment in 1 and 3. Here he jsut grabs at thing and gets a message from mom and it's just unlocked. Also my Favorite Devil Trigger hands down is DMC 3. Kazuma Kaneko's artwork is awesome. Also about that message from mom. "I failed to protect you" Well that's wrong. He wouldn't be receiving that message if you failed.
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Jan 20, 2014 07:24
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To be honest the whole thing about protecting Kat for the first half of the level honestly feels like padding. If I had to guess it was orginally going to be something for their previous game Enslaved but they ran out of time or budget to put in but in this game they needed to pad this level out so they just stuck it in here.
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Feb 10, 2014 21:26
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Alex Garland credited as a script supervisor when it comes to this game, basically he had almost no creative input going into this game leaving everything up to Tameem. The game mostly suffers from that as well will soon see.
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Feb 28, 2014 21:45
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Is anyone else getting serios Mysogynist vibes from this game? I mean let's face it there are exactly three named female characters in this game. The one on the good guy's side has no backbone and is almost completely dependent on Vergil and MC, and gets tortured offscreen. The other two are villains and are portrayed as ugly monsters and you even fight one's unborn child. Look at it and also a few small bits from Enslaved I think it's pretty safe to say that Tameem Antoniades is afraid of women. Also for the next bit I think people should probably keep this interview in mind: http://www.edge-online.com/features/interview-alex-garland-part-two/ Alex Garland posted:We got to a section where Monkey was walking down a walkway, and he sees an escaping slave trying to pull himself up to the walkway. And instead of helping the guy up, Monkey kicked him in the face and sent him to his death. They thought that projected the idea that Monkey was a badass. Whereas, to me, it projected the idea that Monkey was a bit of a oval office.
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Mar 4, 2014 22:02
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RareAcumen posted:Hey, I'm not an expert on Misogyny and Misandry but I don't think Kat not being able to fight people on her own like the two Nephilim dudes [Okay, only Dante because Virgil hasn't really done anything] counts as Misogyny. David D. Davidson fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Mar 5, 2014 |
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Mar 5, 2014 03:24
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The biggest problem I have with this scene is how loving badly this scene played out. It just happens. MC doesn't call him out on it or anything. and in the next level MC and Vergil are all buddy-buddy like it never happened. I mean just compare it to Jessica's death in Saints Row 2. There are two ways that I thought that it could have possibly played out that would have made a bit more sense to me: 1. Everything plays out like it but the ending cutscene to the level is different. Instead of just Mundus walking away from the window what we get is something else. So team Good Guys go back to their hideout and MC just decks Vergil. He begins yelling at him about how he killed a pregnant woman and accusing him of ratting in the Order. Vergil responds with the usual "necessary Sacrifices" and "I did what I had to." Thing start getting intense It appears that MC and Virgil are about to throw down. And then Kat interrupts them and informs them that she has a plan to get into mundus's office and kill him. MC however wants none of this poo poo and is ready to walk. Until either Kat give him the Puppy dog eyes or Vergil points on that MC's in to deep and that Mundus will hunt him down and kill him slowly for what he did and that MC's only choice is to kill Mundus. The cutscene end with MC relenting but adding at the end that "when this is all over, I never want to see you loving face again." Then the NExt Level plays out with there being a clear tension between MC and Vergil. 2. The exchange goes off without a hitch until the very end. Mundus the orders his goons to kill MC and Vergil. During the ensuring shootout Dante takes a bullet in this shoulder throwing off his aim causing him to accidentally kill the unborn child. The Good Guys don't see this however because they're too busy getting the gently caress out of there. In the ending cutscene Mundus then kills Lilith for failing to protect his heir. Then the next level plays out as it does only without MC or Vergil knowing that they're responsible for the unborn child's death until Mundus informs them of this. Both of these would have worked a lot better than what we get and still would have if the Dark and Gritty tm tone that they were going for.
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Mar 11, 2014 23:33
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NikkolasKing posted:Um, no you're not. In fact Dante is like WTF and then it's addressed later too. You're one of those people who doesn't get why people don't like the star wars prequels arn't you? We have had zero indication that Vergil is a villain. The entire scene plays out terribly, and MC just sort of goes along with it. Seriously with how Vergil and MC interact in the next level it's like it never even happened. It's a terrible stupid senseless scene and the game would have been better off without it.
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Mar 13, 2014 01:00
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NikkolasKing posted:
Let me just quote myself on how I would have written the scene: David D. Davidson posted:There are two ways that I thought that it could have possibly played out that would have made a bit more sense to me: The entire scene is loving garbage and it was handled in the worst loving way possible.
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Mar 13, 2014 01:24
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Neruz posted:We need more Ninja Turtle Dante, that was the best Dante. He's not a Nephilim in the original series, just half-demon. As for his age I'd place him around late thirties, earily forties. Assuming that it takes place around eighteen to twenty years after Devil May Cry 3. David D. Davidson fucked around with this message at 06:11 on Mar 29, 2014 |
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Mar 29, 2014 06:08
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Since we're getting into kind of a derail: One of the things that I find most interesting to compare DmC to two other games that were made by Japanese Publishers to appeal to western audiences: Asura's Warth from Capcom and Binary Domain from Sega. There are two big differences between the two games and DmC. Binary Domain and Asura's Wrath are made by Japanese developers, Binary Domain was made by the team that made the Yakuza games and Asura's Wrath was made by CyberConnect2 of .Hack fame. The other thing is that while they do take inspiration from the two "of War" franchise they are still very much their own thing. Also I feel that they are both Objectively better than DmC. That actually leads me to ask some questions? Did Capcom just assume that a western developer would inherently be able to make a game that could appeal to western audiences? Did Ninja Theory not have as much Creative Control over their game as CyberConnect2 did with theirs? Would DmC have been better received if it was it's own original IP? Would a Japanese Developer have made a better game? Is it entirely fair to heap the blame of all of DmC's problems onto Ninja Theory?
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Apr 9, 2014 02:48
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So before this thread is closed I have one more thing to say about the main game: The ripped off the ending for the last loving game. I'm not kidding look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJfVyvUBp-U&t=415s and https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wXygbdEjbRE#t=351 The secondary male lead leaves; in 4 the parting is amicable with Dante entrusing Nero with Yamato and Nero asking Dante if they'll ever see each other again and in DMC the parting has a clear tension with Vergil spouting off some stupid pseudo-Shakespearean nonsense that no one will ever really say, then the male lead expresses concerns regarding his humanity and is counsoled by the love interest end credits. It's just loving lazy. EDIT: New page: Bumfluff posted:(Last) Update! David D. Davidson fucked around with this message at 06:50 on Jun 18, 2014 |
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Jun 18, 2014 04:45
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