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drat why Seolwha!!! I mean I know why... but why!!! The only thing that made me happy this episode was seeing the supposed weak links of Macho and Hanbyul (weak link to Madong because of his injury) do well this time.
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Nov 24, 2016 09:07
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Manic X posted:drat why Seolwha!!! Auntie Hwang too! I knew when I saw how cocky Madong was that something was going to happen.
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Nov 24, 2016 09:59
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Ditocoaf posted:The whole There Can Only Be Three situation is really weird. For instance, if Nopdong keeps winning everything and reaches the endgame with eight or nine players, that'll be a weird as hell election -- they'll have to vote for a leader who will then simultaneously eliminate everyone but three players. Sucky end to all that success. And in Madong, I'm hoping we really do see a strike situation soon, because I'm curious how that can possibly be resolved. The leader has nothing to offer the citizens other than false (in all but two cases) promises of going to the finals. (Even if you spread the reward money evenly, it's meaningless because most people don't get to keep any of that money.) But even any rebellion requires more than three, so requires those same blatantly-unfulfillable promises. I feel like this is one part where the showrunners watched a season of survivor and then forgot about the whole tribe-merging thing.
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Nov 24, 2016 10:08
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Zythrst posted:Auntie Hwang too! I knew when I saw how cocky Madong was that something was going to happen. Oh right, I always forget about Hwang. All I can say is Hael better survive a bit longer. Actually in retrospect it is somewhat ironic that Seolwha spent alot of time trying to protect Hael, and yet it was Seolwha who went before Hael...
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Nov 24, 2016 10:48
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MiddleOne posted:I feel like this is one part where the showrunners watched a season of survivor and then forgot about the whole tribe-merging thing. There has to be some other mid-season twist to replace it right? The end game for all this does seem pretty shaky if one of the teams completely collapses into infighting.
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Nov 24, 2016 15:52
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Maduo posted:There has to be some other mid-season twist to replace it right? The end game for all this does seem pretty shaky if one of the teams completely collapses into infighting. On paper, the games being designed in ways that disadvantage having more team members should result in roughly equal time sizes, and this factor should simultaneously encourage the winning team to be using the blacklist to remove weak links. Unfortunately I don't think it works that well in practice: a) the social meta-game means people make strategic decisions that aren't beneficial for their tribe as a whole (exhibit A: keeping Macho). b) the people who are smart enough to think this way aren't in positions of power because they aren't good at the social game. c) the decision to use the blacklist being on the leader means that they'll be seen as rocking the boat and/or "working against the tribe" (even though the opposite is true), so it's not something they'll always do. Plus needing to do it twice... d) teams not being equal. Both in gameplay mechanisms and in terms of people. A particularly good example is that the main counter to a Madong dictator is a strike. Which means that at some point the team that's constantly losing will need to.... deliberate lose some more to cause a shakeup in tribe leadership. Meta-game mechanics are a focus of Society Game, but in many ways the mechanics are actually less well designed than in the Genius. While the Genius deathmatches were not often the same quality as the main matches, as a mechanic they are fantastic compared to every other elimination mechanic in reality tv because they allow sufficiently skilled minority alliances to survive, and don't discourage playing to your full ability. Big Brother allows minority alliances to survive through the HOH system, but a vote elimination mechanic means people constantly throw competitions and play 3/4 of the game "under the radar" (which, while smart given the mechanics, is boring to watch a tv). Survivor has less comp throwing because things are more chaotic than BB due to environment and time factors, but the mechanics favor majority alliances and people still play under the radar to extent (in terms of their strategising) because "have to get out the big threat!" has become a mantra that people enact way too early (often pre-merge), because people are concerned by "resume building". Society game is avoiding some of these problems, because "we need strong people to win the final competition at the end", which is something I like. But the elimination mechanics to get to that point could be pretty wonky. The final elected Nopdong leader eliminating 5 people in the last episode before the finals would be entertaining, but ultimately a failure in the mechanics of the system. That said, this past episode was easily the best we've seen so far, because it's the first time that the meta-game has been remotely interesting (even if it was interesting because people were making nonsensical decisions; e.g. Hael just seemed determined to put herself in the worst possible position every time she made a decision, even as so many people are trying to help her out). Arcanen fucked around with this message at 16:22 on Nov 24, 2016 |
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Nov 24, 2016 16:19
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Ditocoaf posted:Haesung's group and Asol + Seolhwa's group were going to be at war no matter who replaced Sangguk and no matter who was eliminated. Sangguk wanted the politics to just go away for a moment so he could Nobly Sacrifice Himself For The Greater Good Of The Team, but that just wasn't going to happen. As soon as Haesung had the leadership, he had to make whatever move minimized the chances of Asol's group stealing back control. And I guess he figured that meant getting rid of the cross-group friendship between Hael and Seolhwa.
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Nov 24, 2016 18:42
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I mean, I know it's TV and everything, but living so intimately together and cooking for each other and what not... these people might legitimately like each other! "Sure I might not win, but I want my new friends to win!"
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Nov 25, 2016 09:20
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Just watched the last episode and apparently MJ continues to be the best. Also everything breaks down in North Korea, drat.
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Nov 25, 2016 16:09
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Dias posted:Also everything breaks down in North Korea, drat. I feel like this might legitimately have been part of the game design. Because of a need to form large alliances to counter the leader's power, a strike situation is likely, meaning the team will lose more often and morale is lower. But the only way to resolve the strike is likely to end in more chaos, because it can't really happen without dismantling the faction that currently holds power. The Nopdong side can deal with shifting factions a bit better, as it's not strictly necessary to get the backing of the majority of the tribe to change the leader. I actually like that the system doesn't have a merger. They must have some way to force the larger team to eliminate its own outside of uneven competitions, because otherwise a strike for the weaker team carries no weight. Maybe there will be another jail mechanic, or required transfer to the other side? The latter doesn't seem like it would change much, though, as it would likely mean the larger team just eliminates their players on a one-day delay.
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Nov 26, 2016 19:32
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Kangra posted:I feel like this might legitimately have been part of the game design. Because of a need to form large alliances to counter the leader's power, a strike situation is likely, meaning the team will lose more often and morale is lower. But the only way to resolve the strike is likely to end in more chaos, because it can't really happen without dismantling the faction that currently holds power. Yeah, the strike scenario was clearly anticipated. How well they planned for it remains to be seen.
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Nov 27, 2016 04:07
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Didn't they say in the rules? When a team is down to three, they will no longer need to eliminate. If a team has more than three going into the finale, they will need to choose which three survive to compete at that time.
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Nov 27, 2016 10:02
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The democratic society throwing food aid over the wall to their kimchi-starved kin trapped in the tyrannical
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Nov 27, 2016 10:24
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Also, that Madong didn't give them the oil as promised.
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Nov 27, 2016 10:45
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That looked empty to me.
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Nov 27, 2016 10:56
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Propaganda Machine posted:Also, that Madong didn't give them the oil as promised. They did share oil previously.
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Nov 27, 2016 20:41
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They made a deal for the kimchi!
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Nov 28, 2016 03:48
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https://twitter.com/Bumdidlyump/status/803129345157906432
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Nov 28, 2016 11:11
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that's a legit reason and i am sure the show will continue with mj superiority
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Nov 28, 2016 16:25
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It's finally there Watching the Madong antics has become full on disaster porn, what a trainwreck that place has become. And despite their ever shrinking team making it easier to win games they once again put the wrong person in a crucial role who fucks everything up. Sangyuk having to go to the hospital made his exit inevitable but he may have been the only one who could have pulled their team out of the hole they dug themselves into. In the meanwhile Nopdong has rightly done away with the pointless formality of elections. Everything is coming up MJ and with Heejun getting :commisar: she's got things well in hand although some people may now realize winning is no guarantee for not being eliminated. It'll be interesting to see what the next election will bring. The guys may try to take power while they still outnumber the girls 5-3 or Pharoh may try to start some poo poo to ensure his place in the finals as the physical contestant. Next week's game seems to have no advantage to the smaller team unless I'm missing something. We may see someone die of heat exhaustion too. CeeJee fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Dec 2, 2016 |
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Dec 2, 2016 19:15
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CeeJee posted:It's finally there Fffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuck. That was really good.
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Dec 2, 2016 22:49
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I'm loving the post-traumatic Madong shitshow.
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Dec 2, 2016 23:25
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Maxing continues to implode on itself and it's certainly something to see. I'm pretty sure Haesung's been one of the main dividing factors of Madong ever since his convoluted social maneuvering in the beginning (handing out the keys and adhering to the alliances). With his leadership in both the latest episodes and the next episode preview, I'm looking forward to even more turmoil. Sangguk.  It makes sense that he left so he could rest his injured finger, but the mood in Madong is going to drop even further. Injik seems promising though; I liked his emphasis on giving hope and uniting Madong as an echo of what Sangguk has been doing. It really contrasted against Haesung's approach.The montage during the end of this episode's main challenge was pretty rough on the emotions though. Nopdong keeps going up under MJ's eternal leadership, and Madong fails at the crucial moments. But well, it only took six episodes, but at least I can finally distinguish between Byungkwan and Injik's characters now!
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Dec 3, 2016 01:10
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I liked the use of the 'eternal leader' rhetoric, just in case anybody was still questioning the allegory of it all.
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Dec 3, 2016 01:31
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Propaganda Machine posted:I liked the use of the 'eternal leader' rhetoric, just in case anybody was still questioning the allegory of it all. I heard MJ's birth was heralded by a swallow and that she once got 11 hole-in-ones in a row
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Dec 3, 2016 04:09
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Everything that happened between the beginning of the episode to the opening credits, with the music, was some epic poo poo. Felt like watching the season finale of a mob drama.
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Dec 3, 2016 05:59
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That was really emotional. Christ. Also: There are a lot of really hot men on this show. Pharoh, rawr.
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Dec 3, 2016 11:56
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I hope a situation ends up happening where part of one team tries to lose on purpose so their leader can straight up eliminate someone and the other team tries to make them win anyway.
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Dec 3, 2016 15:14
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I really liked this last episode because it was here that I felt that the premise of the show finally payed off. The entire democracy versus dictatorship dynamic is just fantastic because in reality when you remove the abstractions the show has made, you realise it's just an illusion, both sides are almost identical systems of power. Both leaders have absolute power over eliminations, funds and jail-time with the only real difference being the procedure of challenging the leader and the required type of majority to win that challenge. (Keys instead of daily elections and absolute majority instead of functional majority) There's of course also the imagery inherent to the ritual of changing the leader. Nopdong has a boring bureaucratic anonymous poll. In stark contrast, Madong requires a personal betrayal of trust and dramatic loud gong hitting. Practically the implication is the same, a majority wants a different leader. However, the sheer imagery changes the experience. As we saw after EP1 the initial Madong coup essentially entrenched the back then barely existing alliances in a frame of about 5 minutes. It was just too traumatic and ruined any possibility for future trust between the sides. Even in this episode we still saw the remnants of it, they clearly wanted on a rational level to accept Asol's offer and be done with the drama. But at the same time their gut-feeling was screaming that he could not be trusted. In spite of them practically being very minor these differences in procedure and form have succeeded in making both sides think completely differently about their leaders, in ways that mirror how actual state politics and conflicts of interests tend to work. Especially, Sanggook's entire reign stands out as it is almost a case-study in the political problems of benevolent dictatorships and why they tend to fail. In a stupid reality-tv show they have managed to get the participants to unwittingly behave like actual world leaders do every day. I could go on for pages but as I assume no one wants to listen to that so I just wanted to say that it's beautiful. 
MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Dec 3, 2016 |
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Dec 3, 2016 15:49
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MiddleOne posted:I really liked this last episode because it was here that I felt that the premise of the show finally payed off. The entire democracy versus dictatorship dynamic is just fantastic because in reality when you remove the abstractions the show has made, you realise it's just an illusion, both sides are almost identical systems of power. Both leaders have absolute power over eliminations, funds and jail-time with the only real difference being the procedure of challenging the leader and the required type of majority to win that challenge. (Keys instead of daily elections and absolute majority instead of functional majority) Nah, go on for pages.
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Dec 3, 2016 23:44
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Doctor Reynolds posted:Nah, go on for pages. Pretend I'm emptyquoting this. I felt super bad for Injik, dude was really trying to make amends in a deep sea of spite.
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Dec 4, 2016 05:12
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Doctor Reynolds posted:Nah, go on for pages. Seriously, we're here because we like talking about this show. No shame in writing too much about it. I do think the consecutive losses are causing madong's collapse to be more dramatic than it would be otherwise though. It would be interesting to see how nopdong would handle it in the same situation. (MJ would still be on top.)
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Dec 4, 2016 05:40
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Injik and Byungkwan differentiate themselves, Injik becomes a new character I'm rooting for, Haesung just kind of shrugs forever at the shitstorm, Sangguk sees how badly he screwed his allies and goes out on a high note anyway. Meanwhile, MJ keeps the Nopdong machine running smoothly and powerfully. What a great episode. I really hope Asol follows through with a strike next episode. Why the hell should he and Seohyun put any effort into increasing Haesung's prize money? This would be a very different game if non-final-3 contestants had any incentive for their team to win in the end, but they don't as far as I know.
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Dec 4, 2016 06:36
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I was rooting for Haesung until I realised his robotic demeanour isn't just him some of the time, it's him all of the time. Does he think emotionlessness is a symbol of strength? Either way, it's unsettling.
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Dec 4, 2016 10:35
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It's funny to rewatch the players choosing which society to join and their motivations. It's obvious the winners of the first contests (who have done very little of note since) all went to Madong which made everyone else choose Nopdong. Asol > Madong "If I form a good alliance I can last a long time but Nopdong's leader keeps changing so I felt uneasy" Seolwha > Madong "I think Nopdong will fight a lot. I feel this side will get along better as long as the leader does well" Seohyun > Madong "It looked like all the good people were here. I thought the people would be more important then the system". Heejun > Nopdong "The people who went to Madong seemed too intimidating, I was going to go to Madong as well, but I thought more people might come to Nopdong." MJ > Nopdong "I'm a peace-loving person so I chose Nopdong." Sangguk > Madong "If Madong just gets one good government,I think I could get to the end safely." Macho > Nopdong "I thought communicating with others and building something together seemed really cool." Byungkwan > Madong Oliver > Nopdong Jian > Madong Dongwhan > Nopdong Haesung > Madong Taejin > Nopdong Insun > Nopdong Sahyuk > Nopdong Jaehyuk > Nopdong Pharoh > Nopdong Jiwon > Nopdong Nopdong was now full and Hael, Injik and Hanbyul had to go to Madong. Injik "I wanted to go to Nopdong, but I came 7th in physical ability. If I want to survive in Madong, I think I'll have to become the leader." Injik trying to throw sandbags in the test and failing terribly was a sign of things to come. CeeJee fucked around with this message at 12:38 on Dec 4, 2016 |
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Dec 4, 2016 12:34
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I'm continuing to think about the method of doling out prize money. Anyone that goes home takes their prize money home with them, right? So, on the democracy side, MJ gave that dude she blacklisted $1000 and then eliminated him seconds later, sending the money right out of the game. That doesn't really make sense, but my guess is she didn't want to give anyone else that extra $1k for image reasons. Precedent has already been set for spreading the money out evenly. On the other hand, since only your final three players compete and have a chance to keep their money, at a certain point it just seems like flushing the prize away when you give it to, for example, Macho. There's no way he's one of their best or even better players in terms of physical or mental ability or at throwing things. You don't really want to piss him off or insult him but if you look at for example Sangguk who decided he wasn't one of his team's top three after he couldn't climb the rope, if Macho was similarly egalitarian-minded he could tell his allies to keep him in the game but to stop giving him money because he sucks so much. His vision into this sort of thing is part of what made Sangguk interesting. He was a really, really good leader for his side giving everyone something to play for, talking about opening things up at 9, talking about letting people earn their way to the end, and so on. The trick is doing that while keeping your own "side" happy but he managed it, partly because they didn't really have anywhere better to go. Now that he's seen the fall-out of giving up obviously he'd like to take that back, but like the episode points out, that was his weakness. I have a feeling that Haesung's side will eventually keep and bring to the end someone from Sangguk's side when they see the writing on the wall, like for example Adam's apple dude is obviously their best mental guy (is he on the other side? I forget). If you do just stick tightly to your alliance, not only do you risk pissing everyone off on the other side, you also might be bringing a weak team to the end and just kind of hoping you get lucky at that point, which is kind of shortsighted but who knows, it could work. Anyway the human drama was top-notch and Haesung obviously shouldn't have broken his promise last week. Now Sangguk goes one episode later and was it really worth that entire mess? Interesting thing is apparently Seolhwa was weak but wasn't she one of the winners of the initial competitions? Was she the photographic memory lady or the woman who carried the bags?
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Dec 5, 2016 00:09
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Fast Luck posted:like for example Adam's apple dude is obviously their best mental guy (is he on the other side? I forget). quote:Interesting thing is apparently Seolhwa was weak but wasn't she one of the winners of the initial competitions? Was she the photographic memory lady or the woman who carried the bags? I really liked that moment where Byungkwan was like "what's all this hope stuff, we didn't need 'hope' to care about the challenges" and Injik replied "our hope was Seolhwa". Seolhwa's and Hael's friendship was the biggest thing blurring the stark lines between the alliances, and Haesung made sure to cut that as his very first action, which is a big part of why the situation deteriorated so quickly.
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Dec 5, 2016 06:21
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Ditocoaf posted:Yep. The least central member of that alliance, unlikely to join in a strike or anything now, but definitely on that side. Only the last 3 people will get any money so the alliances are all going to fall apart soon anyway
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Dec 5, 2016 07:06
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straya mate posted:I was rooting for Haesung until I realised his robotic demeanour isn't just him some of the time, it's him all of the time. Does he think emotionlessness is a symbol of strength? Either way, it's unsettling. Oh god, president Haesung the capital is on fire! Help us!  Leatherhead fucked around with this message at 10:27 on Dec 5, 2016 |
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Dec 5, 2016 09:59
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I laughed out loud when Haesun and his boys were trying to work out how to salvage the disaster they had created, and at the end of it Byungkwan gives up and goes to do push-ups.
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Dec 5, 2016 11:14
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