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Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)
People keep saying Kyunghoon solved monorail but I've been looking at his suggested opening move and I'm reasonably certain that given perfect play, its a player 2 win.

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Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)

qbert posted:

Yep, I think whoever puts down the 4th tile is guaranteed a win.

Junseok's opening results in only one possible winning line, using all 16 tiles. Whoever puts down the 4th tile wins, because then they get to put down the 8th tile, which lets them put down the 12th tile, which forces a win.
Player 1 - 3 tiles
Player 2 - 1 tile
Player 1 - 1-3 tiles
Player 2 - ...8th tile
Player 1 - 1-3 tiles
Player 2 - ...12th tile
Player 1 - 1-3 tiles
Player 2 - conplete rail


I'm not 100% sure your system works, or at least, I can follow your moves and come out with a player 1 win if you aren't careful about where the tiles are placed. If player 1 leaves you with 3 in an L shape for you final turn you're screwed.

There is more than one possible winning line, as there are multiple configurations for the 2x3 area in the bottom left, everything else is set in stone though.

Assuming all the other neccessary pieces are in place, that 2x3 rectangle is a win for whoever's turn it is, so the game becomes "who can make sure they aren't the last to complete the neccessary pieces", which player 2 can ensure by playing the horizontal line [straight, straight, upbend] at 1,3 (0,0 being the left square of the station).

I thought maybe player 1 could get a win by ignoring the neccessary pieces and trying to fudge something with that 2x3 area before the end but whatever move they make player 2 has a winning strategy.

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)
I've been looking at monorail some more and I'm now 100% convinced that Kyunghoon/Junseok's opening move is a loss.

This is player 2's winning move, S being station, 1s being first move, 2s second move, puncuation showing the bends etc:

code:
SS1     ===
 21      /=
 21      \=
 2       =
That move splits the board into 2 isolated areas of 5 tiles each, and each area has an exact equivalent move on the opposite side, so as long as player 2 mirrors player 1s moves they win.

More generally, any shape on the board can be examined in isolation and determined whether the first or second player to move in them has a forced win. Whichever player splits the board up into n pairs of equivalent first player win shapes wins, second player win shapes can be safely ignored by both players.

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)
Your first example has an equivalent counter its just not an identical move, by spliting the right hand side into 2 ones which are 1 valued (first player win), the counter becomes creating a 0 valued (second player win) section on the left.

Second example, to a degree, you're correct, I missed that move completely and it unbalances the two sides so they are not functionally equivalent. However if player 2 plays this in response:

code:
SS12     ===\
 212      /=/
1212     \\=\
 2        =
It creates a 3,2,1 situation which is a win.

Possible responses all lead to P2 win:

P1: 3 tiles in the 3 section -> P2: 1 tile in the 2 section
P1: 2 tiles in the 3 section -> P2: 2 tiles in the 2 section
P1: 1 tile in the 3 section -> P2: 1 tile in the 1 section
P1: 2 tiles in the 2 section -> P2: 2 tiles in the 3 section
P1: 1 tile in the 2 section -> P2: 3 tiles in the 3 section
P1: 1 tile in the 1 section -> P2: 1 tile in the 3 section


edit: I think in my brevity I explained badly, mirrored moves don't have to be the same, or even leave the same result, they just have to keep the game board in the status quo of having pairs of equivalent 1 valued sections and an arbitrary number of 0 valued sections.

Blue Star Error fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Aug 9, 2015

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)

Fast Luck posted:

You can always lose these death matches. Gyul Hap is the closest after Twelve Janggi to one you can take with pure skill but Quattro? That's so much luck, and double-sided poker will have plenty of luck too.

I'd rate gyul hap as 'fairer' fwiw than twelve janggi which has a second move advantage. If they fix the boards so that given perfect play each player would have a chance to call gyul 5 times it would probably be the only completely fair deathmatch.

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)
2nd player has an advantage in 12 janggi but there is very little chance someone has memorised the entire perfect play game tree. I don't think its so large as to be completely impossible to memorise after all people memorise large chunks of chess openings, but to do so you'd need to look through every branch of the tree and no-one's going to be doing that manually, and as far as I'm aware none of the remaining players are programmers.

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)
It probably wouldn't have made in difference to the end result but they really need to get rid of that stupid draw rule with their betting deathmatches

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)
If there's another season I'd like to see Hyunmin and Kyunghoon's guests as players, Hyunmin's guy has been in two episodes and won twice, and Kyunghoon's just seemed quite fun.

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)

Doctor Reynolds posted:

It was like that all game, not just at the end.

It was certainly edited to give the impression that it was a late game tactic but he could well have been doing it for longer. You are right though that Kyunghoon has had more than his fair share of luck in the deathmatches, but he's been exceptionally good at exploiting the advantages that chance gives him though so its not like its undeserved.

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)

Zythrst posted:

No way was that intentional, because the one player couldn't see the shoe at all.

eta- Its a dumb game because its possible to bet both sides with 100% certainty. Like if my card is 8 front 10 back and my opponent is showing a 3 I'm getting 10 chips which is 10% of the total chips in play. You know what would be a more skillful game then this? That chair game from the BTS, I say they make that a deathmatch.

You can't have an 8/10 because its even/odd on each side, and that bet wouldn't be a certainty because there's a 20% chance your opponent has a back 10, it would only be a certainly if your opponent bet on the 3 first, which would be a odd move, considering they'd already know that their 3 loses to your front card.

Even if you have the best possible card (a 9/10 or 10/9) there's always a 20% chance your opponent can pull out a draw, which in a double sided bet is a win for your opponent.

The lowest return of a won double sided bet is winning 13 chips, while a losing one loses you 3 chips, so you only need 1 in 5 to come off to be in profit. Which means if both your cards are greater than their front card, and your back lowest card beats at least one of their potential back cards, you should bet 1/1 double sided. I guess mathematically you could safely bet > 1 depending on how large the chances of your win are but that might make it very obvious what you have.

Betting games are not my forte so that might be slightly off but its along the right lines.

Blue Star Error fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Sep 7, 2015

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)
That was great Dongmin is incredible loving hell, just no weaknesses at all.

Generally I think I'd be pretty good at genius deathmatches but mystery sign what the gently caress. I didn't get a single one.

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)

MisterZimbu posted:

I answered exactly one of them.

Unfortunately it was the "6" that Kyunghoon got wrong

lol I did exactly the same :downs::hf::downs:

Power of Pecota posted:

I mean the alternative would be what, bloating up the upload with the end credits looped 20 times?

They could film and show all three games, and say the winner only gets 100% of the prize if they win all 3 matches, otherwise the loser gets 10% or something. At least then we'd get to see all 3 games they've prepared

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)
If anyone wants to try out 12 janggi I knocked up an AI you can play against here. You can play as 2nd player by changing the player=0 in the url to player=1 and similarly raise or lower the difficulty.

For various reasons the AI isn't that great but its an alright challenge at difficulty 7 or 8, past that I think it actually gets worse because I set a 30 second limit for it to generate moves so you aren't waiting minutes for it to evaluate a billion moves.

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)

Kangra posted:

Very cool.

Bug report: After I captured two men, the second disappeared when I dropped the first (might also be related to having captured pieces too). I'm also not sure if the AI gives up when it determines it can't win; in one situation it didn't move after a minute of waiting. I'm not 100% sure it was a lost position.

I had made a stab at building an AI that could solve it but never made a UI past console input. (Also the AI might sometimes be locking up so it never ended up solving it).

Elite posted:

The AI seems to randomly give up a lot of the time for me (I've had more failed games than completed games now). Usually it comes up with a move within about 5 seconds, but sometimes it randomly does nothing even when leaving it for minutes (so significantly longer than the full 30 seconds calculation time). This even happens for the opening moves of the game, where it can't possibly be in a lost position. Not sure what's causing that. :iiam:

Thanks for the feedback.

Looks like I didn't actually upload the version with the 30 second limit oops. I think there's something weird going on with my hosting, its lovely shared hosting so its possible I'm coming up against some CPU limit. When I run it on my PC it never fails to generate a move, even if it knows its going to lose, but you're both right it does appear to be locking up on the live server.

I think I'll have to rewrite the AI to make it more streamlined.

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)
The Genius done on ITV will be loving awful. It needed to be picked up by BBC4 or 2 to work.

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)

NowonSA posted:

Yeah, I feel the same way as pokeyman. Need to check out the Tittycast later.

I'm glad the Genius is getting a shot at an English language version. If they can make it half as good then it'll be a fun watch. With four seasons to choose from you don't even need to come up with your own main match games, just pick and choose some of the good ones.

I would personally freak out for a best of three chess deathmatch near the end or in the finals. Even better if they go with a variant form of Chess with different rules, but I expect if they do Chess at all it'll be straight up.

ITV's target viewers are, to put it bluntly, morons. They are by far the worst British channel the rights could have gone to. They will either do a faithful adaption which will utterly bomb or more likely, dumb it down and make it poo poo. I can't think of a single ITV celebrity I'd trust to draw at noughts and crosses let alone pull off a Dongmin.

I don't reckon you'd ever get to see a full game of chess as a deathmatch, it just takes too long and isn't very interesting television, there's a reason they used a miniature version of shogi rather than a larger version.

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)
Weird choices of games to try to make versions of. Monorail is already an existing game that presumably has some sort of licence over the concept and I'm not convinced Black & White can be won at a rate greater than chance.

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)

Shakugan posted:

I'm really curious to know if they'll adapt the half celebrity half random people strategy that the Genius Korea always used. Because the UK is one of the only countries I can think of that does have a sort of similar celebrity culture. Stephen Fry, David Mitchell, Bill Bailey (basically, a bunch of the people who've appeared on QI) could all be good contestants.

But I'm also curious to see them go super literal and just cast a bunch of smart randoms.

I think there is little chance they have half celebrities half normals, it'll be one or the other. They won't want to end up with "Hi I'm Victoria Coren off the telly and I'm competing for Great Ormand Street Hospital" alongside "Hi I'm Ian off of the public and I'm going to spend my winnings on holidays and some cocaine".

All the people you mention are smart because they have a lot of knowledge, I don't think any of them would be very good at it, similarly I don't think Jinho would be very good on QI. There's plenty of UK celebrities that would be good but most are BBC, Victoria Coren is a pro poker player, Dara O' Briain has a physics degree, one of Armstrong and Miller I forget which has a physics phd, Rachel Riley is like a sexy rainman, Brian Cox is an irl particle physicist, Marcus du Sautoy is an irl maths professor, Tim Key loves cheating and so on.

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)
I love the bald manc twat but he'd be loving useless at this even if the main game was guessing the answers to his own rockbusters.

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)

The Saddest Rhino posted:

Genius facebook appears to suggest a surprise is in store



the start of building a new set?

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)

Ditocoaf posted:

Isn't the core talent behind designing and producing The Genius leaving? If I remember that correctly, then ending the show is the proper thing to do. I prefer when a great show doesn't outlive its greatness. Not every good thing in this world must be driven into the ground.

The staff don't really matter imo as long as you have interesting contestants and good games. If anything having some other people design the games could be a good thing as the last two seasons the games got very samey.

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)

Can Of Worms posted:

You forgot the part where Jinho loses becauses they go to a tiebreaker when Jiwon goes all in, making his loss entirely luck based.

Edit: I forgot that they got tied TWICE (the tiebreaker needed a second tiebreaker). The suspense in that final moment is unreal.

Corn Thongs posted:

The worst part of the Jiwon/Jinho match is when a hand ends in a tie, the bets automatically carry over into the next hand. Jinho called on the first tie, but that rule doomed him and is the stupidest rule they had in the game

To be fair, its no more luck based than the game itself. You just have to take it into account with the odds.

The hand that Jiwon went all in on had both players with a 2, and 1 8 on the board. It was the first hand so of the 37 unknown cards each player could have, 34 are winners, and 3 would draw, so thats a ~92% of winning, and an ~8% chance of drawing which translates to another ~4% chance of winning the following round, so each player knew they had a ~96% chance of winning and the only way they could lose is a draw, which isn't really any different from having an actual 96% chance of winning a single hand with no draws. The draw rule effectively makes it so there are fewer totally safe bets.

It does give the appearance of a loss based on a coin flip which is lovely but in reality its just a continuation of the previous hand's game choices.

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)

Max posted:

This doesn't take into account a player actively keeping track of what has been played, which Jinho is known to do and what got him the win against Gura in the first season.

There were no cards already played, it was the first hand.

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)

Max posted:

Honestly, Jinho shouldn't have taken that bet right off the bat and seen the strategy for what it was.

The problem then is, if you won't call an all in when you have a 96% chance of winning, when will you? 100%? Thats unlikely to happen until the last few hands of the deck and by then Jiwon could have bled you dry by going all in every hand. If Jiwon thought his strategy through which he probably hadn't, he also could potentially fold the final 2 or 3 hands of the deck to lose the minimum amount to Jinho's card counting skills.

Jiwon got very lucky that essentially the perfect hand for his strategy came out first time but Jinho made the right decision to call imo.

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)

Exercu posted:

Funny thing is, when Hyunmin clowns on Jinho in the BTS - when Hyunmin says he's won and Jinho keeps playing anyway, Jinho could have won from that position.

The winning move even uses the shape Jinho was talking about at the beginning of the BTS. Its weird how bad all the players are at monorail even though its the only deathmatch which is feasibly solvable.

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)

Exercu posted:

Yeah, I'd put the death matches in four rough categories.

One is just monorail. Solved, under perfect play from one side it doesn't matter what the other does. Technically also janggi I think.

The other consists of gyul hap, same picture hunt etc. Under perfect play, entirely random. Under non perfect play, a skilled player will almost always win.

Poker games - basically randomish.
A good player will win more than he loses, but not too much.

Then there's the social checks like Quattro, sun moon stars and winning streak.

I'd be interested to see your Monorail solution if that implies you have one. I found a player 1 solution, technically 4 solutions if you count rotations of it and I'm pretty sure there are more. 12 Janggi as another perfect information game is theoretically solvable certainly but there are about a billion game states so no-one is going to memorise the entire game tree

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)
First move:
code:
 ______ ______
|______|______|
|______|______|
|______|______|______ ______    
       |____  |  | | |  ____|
       |__  | |  | | | |  __|
       |__|_|_|__|_|_|_|_|__|
Final track:
code:
 ______ ______ ______ ______
|  ____|______|______|____  |
| |  __|______|______ __  | |
|_| |__|______|______|__|_|_|______ ______   
| | |__|______|____  |  | | |  ____|____  |
| |____|______|__  | |  | | | |  __|__  | |
|______|______|__|_|_|__|_|_|_|_|__|__|_|_|
              |  | | |  | |_|_| |  |  | | |
              |  | | |  |___|___|  |  | | |
              |__|_|_|______|______|__|_|_|
              |  | |_|______|______|__| | |
              |  |___|______|______|____| |
              |______|______|______|______|
So yeah my solution does fix the entire track. I suspect there are 1 and 2 tile first move solutions too but they open up the game tree much wider so its harder to come up with them, also harder to remember / calculate all the moves if you actually play it.

I think if you are the first player and you don't have a solution the best strategy is to play one tile, as the more fixed the track is the easier it is to come up with a winning move.

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)

Propaganda Machine posted:

I haven't seen The Genius in a while, but I backed the Kickstarter to get the Black and White and Monorail card games and I might actually get to use them this weekend.

I like the monorail because it has extra/alternate cards to unbreak the game (thanks, titty god!) but black and white is unchanged from the original and honestly what I'm looking forward to.

Does anybody recall and/or know basic amateur hour strategies?

Kyunghoon's monorail strategy is a losing one so you don't have to worry about that. Check my post history in this thread if you want the move to beat his move and also an actual winning player 1 strategy. I'm interested to know what the alternate cards are though? I guess thats how they got around the fact that monorail is already an existing board game who's name I've forgotten.

I think the best way to try to "unbreak" monorail is to start with one tile randomly placed so its less likely a player can use a planned winning player 1 strategy, instead having to solve it on the fly.

Black & White I remain unconvinced that its possible to win at a greater rate than chance without meta-game strategies.

Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)

tbp posted:

Finally finished up all four seasons of The Genius. One of the best TV shows I've seen in a long time, and tough to say whether itd be replicable in the west. Sangmin probably my favorite character of all four seasons, his comedic moments were amazing.

I'm glad you enjoyed it fellow footy poster.

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Blue Star Error
Jun 11, 2001

For this recipie you will need:
Football match (Halftime of), Celebrity Owner (Motivational speaking of), Sherry (Bottle of)

Artelier posted:

Is that the one where Dongmin knew it couldn't be solved, played a move anyway which psyched out his opponent so hard, even though she thought it couldn't be solved, she played on anyway? And when it went back to Dongmin he immediately went "Can't be solved."

Because that was bawse as gently caress.

Kinda, Dongmin massively hosed up, it wasn't intentional, he played a dumb move that left it unsolvable. After that his only choice was to act as if it was still solvable even though it clearly wasn't and hope that his opponent wilted, which she did.

Propaganda Machine posted:

I thought somebody broke Monorail in season 4. Wasn't it titty god?

Nah his opening move is a loss given perfect play. There is a opening move win though.

NowonSA posted:

lame poker poo poo taking advantage of their dumb "when it's a draw keep flipping cards and high card wins" rule to eliminate one of my faves... not so much.

The more I think about that the more I think it was actually a really smart play. In gambling games the superior player's advantage becomes larger with a bigger sample size of hands/bets, if you know you're inferior and are more likely to lose the longer the game goes on, trying to make it as luck based as possible by going all in whenever your chance of winning the hand is >50% is a good strategy.

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