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Ragequit
Jun 1, 2006



Lipstick Apathy

Mordaedil posted:

Could you write an interesting game where at the end you have to lose without it feeling like... Fallout 3's original ending?

Nier does this with a certain ending. You lose big time.

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SurrealityCheck
Sep 15, 2012


Ragequit posted:

Nier does this with a certain ending. You lose big time.

Nier is an endless succession of losses, with each ending deepening the failure!

I thought it was pretty fun in a gloomfilled kind of way.

Mr.Pibbleton
Feb 3, 2006

Aleuts rock, chummer.



SurrealityCheck posted:

Nier is an endless succession of losses, with each ending deepening the failure!

I thought it was pretty fun in a gloomfilled kind of way.

I loved the fact that Nier calls bullshit on the initial pig boss having so much health then the final level has you fighting an uberpig, running away from it and an army sacrificing itself to merely delay it. Hopelessness and being overwhelmed can be amazing if done right. However I don't see any situation my gun monk would find hopeless.



Edit: Unless he has to enter a not-being awesome contest, he'd loving suck at that.

Mr.Pibbleton fucked around with this message at 16:04 on May 20, 2014

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness


Soiled Meat

Haha, you guys just reminded me OF the Fallout 3 ending. I had blocked it off because I remember going, "...wut" when I finally did it. It was just so dumb.

Oh man, it's certainly funny now, but back then it was just so not cool.

Mr.Pibbleton
Feb 3, 2006

Aleuts rock, chummer.



Drifter posted:

Haha, you guys just reminded me OF the Fallout 3 ending. I had blocked it off because I remember going, "...wut" when I finally did it. It was just so dumb.

Oh man, it's certainly funny now, but back then it was just so not cool.

There were TWO companions who not only were immune to radiation but actually benefited from it and if you talked to them they'd just say, "Nah, you go in there and die instead."

Captain Oblivious
Oct 12, 2007

Right in the Kokoro



AG3 posted:

It doesn't end well per se, but on the flip side it doesn't feel like a LOSS either. At least I didn't feel like that when I played it. The original Mass Effect 3 ending on the other hand... (not that the extended version was much better). Oh wait, that was supposed to be an ending where you win. My bad. It was kind of hard to tell back then

That's kind of the point though. You didn't feel like it was a loss even though it strictly is. The Nameless One is damned for all eternity.

That's exactly an example of an ending where you lose, without cheapening the narrative.

SurrealityCheck posted:

Nier is an endless succession of losses, with each ending deepening the failure!

I thought it was pretty fun in a gloomfilled kind of way.

I think I am the only person who feels like Nier is just contrived misery porn and not anything special at the story telling level. By the end of the game, the ham handed plot twists they have to conjure to evoke Feel Bad literally caused me to laugh out loud.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.


Sensuki posted:

I have a question regarding Scripted Interactions. Is the PC always the character who "interacts" with the world through Scripted Interactions, or does it work for whichever character you have selected ? Also for group actions such as "Climb a cliff", "Swim through an underground tunnel" and "Jump over a Bridge", does the one character's check count as a pass for the whole party, or is each individual character's attribute or skill checked individually?
It depends on the interaction. Sometimes it's a single character, other times it's the group and individual members of the party can become injured by being below the threshold. "Injury" in this case means a penalty that lasts until the next time you rest: twisted ankle, swollen eye, etc. Similar to the Dragon Age injuries but less... long-term-sounding.

idonotlikepeas
May 29, 2010

This reasoning is possible for forums user idonotlikepeas!


The way Planescape managed it was to spend a great deal of time altering your definition of the word "loss". At the end, you can see it as a win because the game has convinced you it might actually be one. It's a really hard trick to pull off.

ditty bout my clitty
May 28, 2011

by FactsAreUseless


Fun Shoe

AG3 posted:

It doesn't end well per se, but on the flip side it doesn't feel like a LOSS either. At least I didn't feel like that when I played it. The original Mass Effect 3 ending on the other hand... (not that the extended version was much better). Oh wait, that was supposed to be an ending where you win. My bad. It was kind of hard to tell back then

Ending ME3 with a black screen after the final dialogue option saying "AND THEN SHEPARD DIED" would feel like less of a cop-out than what we got.

The Sharmat
Sep 5, 2011

by Lowtax


"Winning" was basically accepting that the Nameless One hosed up big and it was time to face the music. A bit depressing, what with going to Hell forever and all, but I have trouble imagining any other ending.

Mordaedil
Oct 25, 2007

Oh wow, cool. Good job.
So?


Grimey Drawer

Mr.Pibbleton posted:

There were TWO companions who not only were immune to radiation but actually benefited from it and if you talked to them they'd just say, "Nah, you go in there and die instead."

Actually, I remember I could talk the super mutant into doing the final deed for me and he would do it, but he'd be like "what, you don't want to do it? I don't get why. "

And then the end bitches at you for not doing what needed to be done by you and basically calls you a chicken. Nothing upsets me quite as much as Ron Perlman calling me a chicken for not wanting to kill myself.

Roobanguy
May 30, 2011



Mordaedil posted:

Actually, I remember I could talk the super mutant into doing the final deed for me and he would do it, but he'd be like "what, you don't want to do it? I don't get why. "

And then the end bitches at you for not doing what needed to be done by you and basically calls you a chicken. Nothing upsets me quite as much as Ron Perlman calling me a chicken for not wanting to kill myself.

That was added in in the Broken Steel expansion I think. Before they would just say "It's your destiny to die from radiation!"

marshmallow creep
Dec 10, 2008

I've been sitting here for 5 mins trying to think of a joke to make but I just realised the animators of Mass Effect already did it for me



Mordaedil posted:

Actually, I remember I could talk the super mutant into doing the final deed for me and he would do it, but he'd be like "what, you don't want to do it? I don't get why. "

And then the end bitches at you for not doing what needed to be done by you and basically calls you a chicken. Nothing upsets me quite as much as Ron Perlman calling me a chicken for not wanting to kill myself.

As I recall, that only happens if you have the DLC that adds a post game and edits the ending. Because somehow you survive even if you go in yourself at that point.

Fintilgin
Sep 29, 2004

Fintilgin sweeps!

Mordaedil posted:

Actually, I remember I could talk the super mutant into doing the final deed for me and he would do it, but he'd be like "what, you don't want to do it? I don't get why. "

I think that was patched in in one of the DLC. In the release version I don't think he'd go in.

But yeah, Fallout 3 was a fun open world shoot-em-RPG, but the writing was loving dire.

EDIT: Welp, beaten like New Vegas beat F3

frajaq
Jan 30, 2009

#acolyte GM of 2014




Yeah I don't get that NOBLE SACRIFICE with the reactor. The Lone Wanderer can do much more good to the wasteland alive while killing bandits/mutants being the badass he/she is.

Fintilgin
Sep 29, 2004

Fintilgin sweeps!

frajaq posted:

Yeah I don't get that NOBLE SACRIFICE with the reactor. The Lone Wanderer can do much more good to the wasteland alive while killing bandits/mutants being the badass he/she is.

It's because even in Fallout, Bethesda couldn't get away from Tired Fantasy Tropes 101. I think one of the NPCs even refers to going into the reactor as being "your ~*Destiny*~". AT LAST THE ANCIENT PROPHECIES OF THE VAULT HAVE BEEN FULFILLED! THE HOUR OF DESTINY IS AT HAND!

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness


Soiled Meat

If someone else can do it and survive, there's literally never any reason for noble sacrifice, unless your moral understandings are still at a 16 year old lonely high school kid's level.

Noble Sacrifice means something entirely different, it's not just killing yourself so that other people can finally recognize how really great you are and too bad for them they didn't realize that beforehand, but nope you sure showed them how great you truly were.

Kanfy
Jan 9, 2012

Just gotta keep walking down that road.


It's almost like Fallout 3 wasn't a very well-written game.

marshmallow creep
Dec 10, 2008

I've been sitting here for 5 mins trying to think of a joke to make but I just realised the animators of Mass Effect already did it for me



Yeah, it might have meant something if the battle had caused the reactor to collapse, dragging you and the one other person who is designated to be in the end-game sequence (little miss Lyons) into a place where your companions are inaccessible and there's no time for you to dig out before everything goes haywire and everyone dies. Then the choice actually could actually function as intended.

SurrealityCheck
Sep 15, 2012


Captain Oblivious posted:

That's kind of the point though. You didn't feel like it was a loss even though it strictly is. The Nameless One is damned for all eternity.

That's exactly an example of an ending where you lose, without cheapening the narrative.


I think I am the only person who feels like Nier is just contrived misery porn and not anything special at the story telling level. By the end of the game, the ham handed plot twists they have to conjure to evoke Feel Bad literally caused me to laugh out loud.

Well that's the thing, right - it's ridiculously far in one direction. I enjoyed it, simply because there are so few games (or narratives in general) willing to go that far. It's not a masterpiece of story telling, but in the context of game narratives it was a pleasant surprise.

Sensuki
Dec 29, 2012

ASK ME ABOUT BEING A MASSIVE ARTISTIC SHITLORD ABOUT VIDEO GAMES.

I AM A TREMENDOUS FIRETRUCK AND MY BURGERS ARE OUT OF CONTROL




rope kid posted:

It depends on the interaction. Sometimes it's a single character, other times it's the group and individual members of the party can become injured by being below the threshold. "Injury" in this case means a penalty that lasts until the next time you rest: twisted ankle, swollen eye, etc. Similar to the Dragon Age injuries but less... long-term-sounding.

Cheers. Sounds good.

avoraciopoctules
Oct 22, 2012

What is this kid's DEAL?!



Captain Oblivious posted:

I think I am the only person who feels like Nier is just contrived misery porn and not anything special at the story telling level. By the end of the game, the ham handed plot twists they have to conjure to evoke Feel Bad literally caused me to laugh out loud.

No, I remember seeing the writing on the wall and ditching Nier before I even got to the cool text adventure segment I heard about and bought the game for. For me, Nier ends when the main character gets run over by a boar. Kind of a shame, since I liked the gameplay. The first boss fight was great.

Fair Bear Maiden
Jun 17, 2013


Drifter posted:

If someone else can do it and survive, there's literally never any reason for noble sacrifice, unless your moral understandings are still at a 16 year old lonely high school kid's level.

You have a really low opinion of 16-year old kids. Abysmal, even.

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness


Soiled Meat

Fair Bear Maiden posted:

You have a really low opinion of 16-year old kids. Abysmal, even.

Not at all. I just know average approximate times in which brain chemistry and exposure to societal influences start to change.

Blotto Skorzany
Nov 7, 2008

He's a PSoC, loose and runnin'
came the whisper from each lip
And he's here to do some business with
the bad ADC on his chip
bad ADC on his chiiiiip


Fair Bear Maiden posted:

You have a really low opinion of 16-year old kids. Abysmal, even.

A justifiably low opinion of 16 year olds

Mordaedil
Oct 25, 2007

Oh wow, cool. Good job.
So?


Grimey Drawer

Roobanguy posted:

That was added in in the Broken Steel expansion I think. Before they would just say "It's your destiny to die from radiation!"

I didn't have the expansion installed.

wiegieman
Apr 22, 2010

Royalty is a continuous cutting motion




Captain Oblivious posted:

That's kind of the point though. You didn't feel like it was a loss even though it strictly is. The Nameless One is damned for all eternity.

It's Planescape. If you think an Epic level character like him ever has to just take stuff like that, well, there are ways out of the Blood War.

The Sharmat
Sep 5, 2011

by Lowtax


I thought the thing about Planescape was that it was an infinite multiverse, which means that no matter how big you think you are, there's something out there that's big enough to push your poo poo in and not break a sweat. A lot of those things are probably in the Blood War, given that it's the largest and most violent conflict in the history of everything.

Scorchy
Jul 15, 2006

Smug Statement: Elementary, my dear meatbag.


I know lots of people hated it but Prince of Persia 2008's ending is at the top of my list. You win and wrap everything up, but it's a huge downer. Then the credits roll. Then you can choose to 'lose', there's no prompts, you just know what to do instinctively, and it brings everything full circle and it's beautiful.

Tendales
Mar 9, 2012


Mordaedil posted:

Could you write an interesting game where at the end you have to lose without it feeling like... Fallout 3's original ending?

I always liked Phantasy Star 2's ending, which had a 'spit in the face of certain defeat' ending that really stood out from the other JRPGs of the time.

SurrealityCheck
Sep 15, 2012


Scorchy posted:

I know lots of people hated it but Prince of Persia 2008's ending is at the top of my list. You win and wrap everything up, but it's a huge downer. Then the credits roll. Then you can choose to 'lose', there's no prompts, you just know what to do instinctively, and it brings everything full circle and it's beautiful.

I thought people disliked the game for its simplistic gameplay rather than the ending - I heard a lot of praise for the ending specifically. Or is that unusual?

Agean90
Jun 28, 2008




Scorchy posted:

I know lots of people hated it but Prince of Persia 2008's ending is at the top of my list. You win and wrap everything up, but it's a huge downer. Then the credits roll. Then you can choose to 'lose', there's no prompts, you just know what to do instinctively, and it brings everything full circle and it's beautiful.

I liked Prince of Persia 08. Felt like the team really managed to capture that old folk tale feel with it, if that makes any sense.

Scorchy
Jul 15, 2006

Smug Statement: Elementary, my dear meatbag.


SurrealityCheck posted:

I thought people disliked the game for its simplistic gameplay rather than the ending - I heard a lot of praise for the ending specifically. Or is that unusual?

I mostly read a lot of mainstream people complaining about how the ending was 'unfinished', so much so they put out an epilogue DLC. I couldn't play it but I read was kinda pointless.

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness


Soiled Meat

I missed the 08 part and thought you were talking about the first Sands of Time POP. That had a great ending that also had a sense of loss, on a personal character level. And hope and stuff, but still.

Captain Oblivious
Oct 12, 2007

Right in the Kokoro



Scorchy posted:

I know lots of people hated it but Prince of Persia 2008's ending is at the top of my list. You win and wrap everything up, but it's a huge downer. Then the credits roll. Then you can choose to 'lose', there's no prompts, you just know what to do instinctively, and it brings everything full circle and it's beautiful.

Prince of Persia 2008 had the most...grimly...cathartic ending I've ever played? It's horrifying in it's inevitability. There's nothing saying you have to do this but you know you need to do it. It's like being an alcoholic with a drink in hand. It is a death march.

I need to go replay that game.

Keeshhound
Jan 14, 2010

Mad Duck Swagger


Mordaedil posted:

Could you write an interesting game where at the end you have to lose without it feeling like... Fallout 3's original ending?

It depends how you're defining a loss. Fallout 3's ending failed because everything about it was leading up towards something triumphant at the end, and then tripped over it's own feet because it tried to force a noble sacrifice where one was unnecessary. On the other hand, if a game is built around that loss, with every game element being used to better frame or accentuate that loss, I think it could actually become a worthwhile experience on it's own.

People have been discussing the use of tragedy in art for as long as it's existed. Aristotle asserted that tragedy in theater served as a way for the viewer to temporarily experience the dangers of life vicariously. Plato thought that it was a form of catharsis, a way to purge the soul of negative emotions by giving them an outlet. Nietzche was of the opinion that tragedy was a necessary part of life, and that if they found it lacking in their own lives, people would seek it out in art instead.

So with that in mind, I guess I'd say that if you set out with the goal of making a genuinely tragic story for your game, (as opposed to the Mass Effect 3 and Fallout 3's where what was meant to be a triumphant ending was fumbled so thoroughly as to cast a shadow on everything that had come before) then the answer is yes.

Keeshhound fucked around with this message at 23:00 on May 20, 2014

X_Toad
Apr 2, 2011


Scorchy posted:

I mostly read a lot of mainstream people complaining about how the ending was 'unfinished', so much so they put out an epilogue DLC. I couldn't play it but I read was kinda pointless.
The Epilogue ends on even more of a sequel tease than the original game, from what I understand. It sets Elika on a quest to rejoin her people and find a more permanent way to defeat Arihman, while setting up the Mourning King as a bit of a main adversary.

Captain Oblivious
Oct 12, 2007

Right in the Kokoro



I'm suddenly reminded of how mad I am that we're never getting a sequel to PoP 2008

Sleep of Bronze
Feb 9, 2013

If I could only somewhere find Aias, master of the warcry, then we could go forth and again ignite our battle-lust, even in the face of the gods themselves.

Plato prefers not to concern himself with poetry. Aristotle is the proponent of catharsis.

14492b posted:

ἔστιν οὖν τραγῳδία μίμησις πράξεως σπουδαίας καὶ τελείας μέγεθος ἐχούσης ... δι᾽ ἐλέου καὶ φόβου περαίνουσα τὴν τῶν τοιούτων παθημάτων κάθαρσιν.

So tragedy is this reflection of a deed which is of great import, which is final, and which has a certain magnitude ... by pity and fear, it accomplishes the catharsis of such emotions.

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spider wisdom
Nov 4, 2011

og data bandit


e: wrong thread!

spider wisdom fucked around with this message at 02:31 on May 21, 2014

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