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Mordaedil
Oct 25, 2007

Oh wow, cool. Good job.
So?


Grimey Drawer

Mymla posted:

It's a bit different in a game with a player created protagonist, you can't really write an ending well for a character like that, it's an inherent flaw of the medium. New vegas was pretty good, though, with wrapping up most of the side characters/locations' stories if I recall. And the main story was pretty clear cut, wasn't it? "NCR/Legion/House/Courier wins, wohoo".

The true genius of the ending slides of Fallout games is how they illustrate that not everything is straight up a victory and that somehow the wasteland has to manage somehow without you, even if you finish that area in the best possible outcome, it still is up to the others to take your character as an example to follow up on. I think that is probably the best justification I could give for why they changed the original Fallout's Junktown ending from being so that helping Gizmo would help Junktown prosper and doom Junktown if you helped Gillian.

In the end, the endings are isolated incidents and when you have one good ending in one slide, you might have a bad ending in the next and it makes for a more varied experience when the slides are grey or at least a mixture of black & white.

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lordfrikk
Mar 11, 2010

casual lamer


The separate outcomes for various areas/NPCs/etc. are my favorite solution for endings in a highly variable games like New Vegas. Loved it ever since I played Fallout 2 as a kid because you get to see a summary of what you've accomplished or failed to do during the game and it definitely helps making each game a bit more unique.

Sensuki
Dec 29, 2012

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The Witcher series did that well too, although you'd get a delayed set of illustrations or comics, rather than it having anything to do with the central plotline.

Sensuki
Dec 29, 2012

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rope kid, did you end up sorting out the Penetration system that's connected to the Perception attribute?

Sensuki fucked around with this message at 06:58 on May 25, 2014

Furism
Feb 21, 2006

Live long and headbang


I was thinking about the Dire Blessing and Circle of Profession spells that we saw during last update. Do words uttered by the Priest matter? Or they mean something in some tongue, are they made up because they sound cool, would the Priest say different words depending on his deity? Also, more concretely, how are those recorded?

I don't think we've had an update on this, showing voice actors coming to the studio to speak weird languages for spells and they see the audio guys apply filters and stuff. It'd be interesting to see that process, at least to me.

Clever Spambot
Sep 16, 2009

You've lost that lovin' feeling,
Now it's gone...gone...
GONE....


Have they said anything about enemies in this game having visual windups to powerful attacks (such as the long spellcasting time in infinity engine games) to allow you to get out of the way or interrupt them with short stun attacks?

Also any idea if we will be able to while engaged with an enemy sort of re-align yourself to a more ideal position without provoking an attack of opportunity or does any sort of movement provoke?

Furism
Feb 21, 2006

Live long and headbang


Clever Spambot posted:

Also any idea if we will be able to while engaged with an enemy sort of re-align yourself to a more ideal position without provoking an attack of opportunity or does any sort of movement provoke?

I think you get attack of opportunity (Disengagement Attacks) only if you are Engaged by an enemy and that you try to leave his melee range. As long as you stay in range I reckon you won't trigger the Disengagement Attack.

prometheus12345
Oct 4, 2013


Clever Spambot posted:

Have they said anything about enemies in this game having visual windups to powerful attacks (such as the long spellcasting time in infinity engine games) to allow you to get out of the way or interrupt them with short stun attacks?
You can interrupt all actions with normal attacks, some weapons and abilities have a higher interrupt value like Thrust of Tattered Veils and morning stars. Most spells have a casting time from 3 seconds (and 3 seconds recovery time) and most melee weapons have a attack speed and recovery time of 2 second. So you will have 1-2 attacks to interrupt the enemy.

Clever Spambot posted:

Also any idea if we will be able to while engaged with an enemy sort of re-align yourself to a more ideal position without provoking an attack of opportunity or does any sort of movement provoke?
You will only provoke a disengagement attack if you move outside the engagement range(but the range is really small).

Sensuki
Dec 29, 2012

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Clever Spambot posted:

Have they said anything about enemies in this game having visual windups to powerful attacks (such as the long spellcasting time in infinity engine games) to allow you to get out of the way or interrupt them with short stun attacks?

Yes there's three set ability/spell animation types: instant, 3 seconds and 6 seconds I think.

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Ability

quote:

Currently three duration's are planned: immediate, short(~3 seconds), and long(~6 seconds).

I'm hoping to see that cast animation shown in the videos reworked to something more like the IE games, that was probs just the 'alpha' anim for casting.

prometheus12345
Oct 4, 2013


Sensuki posted:


I'm hoping to see that cast animation shown in the videos reworked to something more like the IE games, that was probs just the 'alpha' anim for casting.

I think it should depend on the caster/spell, Imo wizard and cipher spells shouldn't look like IE game spellcasting. wizard spells should look like they are using their spell book(spell energy should come from the spell book), ciphers shouldn't have any spell effect on themselves during casting, because they use the spell energy of the target.

You can also see wizard casting animation in the teaser.(1:05)

Sensuki
Dec 29, 2012

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Yeah I already know about that, what I meant was that the animation in the spell video looks like it's been ported across from the Wizard spell animation, as only one hand is active. I don't know if they've budgeted for individual spell animation types for all non-wizards, but I like the IE style with a color-coded orb style thing.

Hopefully they do a 'combat' stance for the recovery period between actions too, as that was something that was missing in the Icewind Dale games, whereas BG had one (not including the fake attacks) - it was like a pulse where characters held their weapon(s) and shield up.

Sensuki fucked around with this message at 15:02 on May 25, 2014

prometheus12345
Oct 4, 2013


Sensuki posted:

Yeah I already know about that, what I meant was that the animation in the spell video looks like it's been ported across from the Wizard spell animation, as only one hand is active. I don't know if they've budgeted for individual spell animation types for all non-wizards, but I like the IE style with a color-coded orb style thing.

Hopefully they do a 'combat' stance for the recovery period between actions too, as that was something that was missing in the Icewind Dale games, whereas BG had one (not including the fake attacks) - it was like a pulse where characters held their weapon(s) and shield up.

Dire blessing uses both hands, the druid? in the teaser also uses both hands. The only thing that could be ported is the end part of circle of protection.

They seem to use different casting animations, the wizard casting, the druid? in the teaser, dire blessing and circle protection all have different casting animations.

I have no problems with color coded orbs for druids, priests and chanters. But I have a problem(I think it doesn't fit with the lore) with orbs for wizards and ciphers. They could still color code the effects from the wizard books.

Sensuki
Dec 29, 2012

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prometheus12345 posted:

Dire blessing uses both hands, the druid? in the teaser also uses both hands. The only thing that could be ported is the end part of circle of protection.

They seem to use different casting animations, the wizard casting, the druid? in the teaser, dire blessing and circle protection all have different casting animations.

I have no problems with color coded orbs for druids, priests and chanters. But I have a problem(I think it doesn't fit with the lore) with orbs for wizards and ciphers. They could still color code the effects from the wizard books.

You're right, they are different. The animation plays a lot later than the VO does, I'm not sure if that's intentional or not, as the VO started at the same time, or after the casting anim in the IE games. Some kind of FX to go with the casting anims would be cool, although I fully don't expect them to all have unique ones. That's why something like the color coded IE ones would be fine because then you don't have to have a different FX for every spell.

There's an effect generated for the 'missile' spell in the trailer though it's not as opaque as the IE games one, which seems to be the trend with FX in PE.

Sensuki fucked around with this message at 16:36 on May 25, 2014

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.


Sensuki posted:

rope kid, did you end up sorting out the Penetration system that's connected to the Perception attribute?
Penetration isn't connected to Perception anymore. Perception now affects Interrupt (also based on the type of attack), which is compared to the target's Concentration, which is derived from Resolve. Slower attacks tend to have higher base Interrupt. Faster attacks and AoEs tend to have lower base Interrupt. There are exceptions. Firearms have relatively low base Interrupt (and high damage). Thrust of Tattered Veils has a high base Interrupt (but does very little damage).

Furism posted:

I was thinking about the Dire Blessing and Circle of Profession spells that we saw during last update. Do words uttered by the Priest matter? Or they mean something in some tongue, are they made up because they sound cool, would the Priest say different words depending on his deity? Also, more concretely, how are those recorded?
Those are purely placeholder for now.

Clever Spambot posted:

Have they said anything about enemies in this game having visual windups to powerful attacks (such as the long spellcasting time in infinity engine games) to allow you to get out of the way or interrupt them with short stun attacks?

Also any idea if we will be able to while engaged with an enemy sort of re-align yourself to a more ideal position without provoking an attack of opportunity or does any sort of movement provoke?
Some attacks have windups, but it's rare (usually long spells).

You can move around a target without provoking Disenagagement. Unlike 3E AoEs, it's purely based on distance from the engaging enemy.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.


Druid/priest spellcasting animations are shared. They have a directional ("throwing" the spell) and reflexive (around themselves) anim. Wizards also have two anims for directional and reflexive, but they always have their grimoire in hand. Ciphers put their hand (or both hands) up near their head and then push toward their target. Chanters lean back and then thrust their heads forward for their invocations (only one anim).

Drifter
Oct 22, 2000

Belated Bear Witness


Soiled Meat

Psyching myself up for this game.

rope kid posted:

You can move around a target without provoking Disenagagement. Unlike 3E AoEs, it's purely based on distance from the engaging enemy.

Oh man, I can't wait to see what combat controls are like because that sounds like it could require a level of specificity that the old infinity engine games just didn't have in combat, at least comfortably.

Is there basically an *lock melee to this enemy* toggle so you don't click somewhere while trying to circle them and break engagement?

Drifter fucked around with this message at 02:58 on May 26, 2014

Alacron
Feb 15, 2007

-->Have tearful reunion with your son
-->Eh

Fun Shoe

rope kid posted:

Penetration isn't connected to Perception anymore. Perception now affects Interrupt (also based on the type of attack), which is compared to the target's Concentration, which is derived from Resolve. Slower attacks tend to have higher base Interrupt. Faster attacks and AoEs tend to have lower base Interrupt. There are exceptions. Firearms have relatively low base Interrupt (and high damage). Thrust of Tattered Veils has a high base Interrupt (but does very little damage).



No seriously, this sounds pretty cool.

frajaq
Jan 30, 2009

#acolyte GM of 2014



rope kid posted:

Penetration isn't connected to Perception anymore. Perception now affects Interrupt (also based on the type of attack), which is compared to the target's Concentration, which is derived from Resolve. Slower attacks tend to have higher base Interrupt. Faster attacks and AoEs tend to have lower base Interrupt. There are exceptions. Firearms have relatively low base Interrupt (and high damage). Thrust of Tattered Veils has a high base Interrupt (but does very little damage).

Will your game have a Dumb Babby mode

Basic Chunnel
Sep 21, 2010

Jesus! Jesus Christ! Say his name! Jesus! Jesus! Come down now!



The wizard class has already been confirmed

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.


frajaq posted:

Will your game have a Dumb Babby mode
For Interrupt/Concentration all you really need to know is that a higher Perception makes an attacker more likely to interrupt the target and a higher Resolve makes it more likely that a defender will resist an interruption. Otherwise, attacks will be labeled with relative values of Interrupt. Higher = more chance of interrupting.

Jackard
Oct 28, 2007

We Have A Bow And We Wish To Use It

rope kid posted:

For Interrupt/Concentration all you really need to know is that a higher Perception makes an attacker more likely to interrupt the target and a higher Resolve makes it more likely that a defender will resist an interruption. Otherwise, attacks will be labeled with relative values of Interrupt. Higher = more chance of interrupting.
How to get fast dualwielding dagger/rapier interrupts?

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.


Daggers and rapiers are both fast (20 frame) attacking weapons and they have lower Interrupt ratings. However, because they are attacking faster, they cause Interrupt checks more often.

FRINGE
May 23, 2003
title stolen for lf posting


rope kid posted:

Penetration isn't connected to Perception anymore. Perception now affects Interrupt (also based on the type of attack), which is compared to the target's Concentration, which is derived from Resolve.
This is excellent.

Sensuki
Dec 29, 2012

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At a glance I can sort of see not really needing Perception as a Priest because you spend a lot of time casting party buffs and are probably going to be primarily a ranged character.

CottonWolf
Jul 20, 2012

Good ideas generator



Drifter posted:

Is there basically an *lock melee to this enemy* toggle so you don't click somewhere while trying to circle them and break engagement?

If this controls anything like the old games, I think that would be necessary. I could never get much finescale movement out of them, but perhaps that was me, rather than the games.

Sensuki
Dec 29, 2012

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Why would you need a toggle for it? You have pause and slow and you know how the mechanic works, it's just like misclicking anything - it's your fault. Logically you would click within the diameter of the selection circle size as close to the enemy selection circle as possible.

The controls in the Infinity Engine games were very good, certainly better than 99% of RPGs. Characters were very easy to move around, and the pathfinding issues could be mostly alleviated by a bit of sporadic micromanagement and use of the rotate formation function. I hope the PE ones aren't much different.

Sensuki fucked around with this message at 10:16 on May 26, 2014

Munin
Nov 14, 2004




Sensuki posted:

Why would you need a toggle for it? You have pause and slow and you know how the mechanic works, it's just like misclicking anything - it's your fault.

The controls in the Infinity Engine games were very good, certainly better than 99% of RPGs. Characters were very easy to move around, and the pathfinding issues could be mostly alleviated by a bit of sporadic micromanagement and use of the rotate formation function. I hope the PE ones aren't much different.

This wouldn't be sporadic micromanagement but a core part of the combat.

I'd also prefer if there was some way to define whether you want to move and stay engaged or move and disengage. It didn't matter in the IE games since there was no threatened area etc but in a game where that is a thing I'd like some sort of solid control over it. It's a quality of life thing. If I click on the ground near the enemy it would be nice if the game knew whether I wanted to swing round the enemy to attack them from a different position or whether I wanted to move to that piece of ground even if the enemy or whatever moves elsewhere.

How that difference is communicated to the game is a different matter.

Btw, if two people move past each other who is disengaging from whom?

[edit] Heck, it could be as simple as every enemy has a circle around them. Click within the circle is enaging, click outside is moving. It would also fit in with the concept that if someone is within a certain area of the character or enemy they are automatically engaged. You can't simply idle in engagement range.

Munin fucked around with this message at 10:34 on May 26, 2014

FRINGE
May 23, 2003
title stolen for lf posting


I have never liked "disngagement" being a problem/penalty. Backing out of range is one of the safer things you can do in melee. I think it should be removed as a baseline effect and only used as a special effect generated by the dedicated line-holder (Fighter in this game).

What game started the whole thing anyway?

Entering range is when you should take a disadvantage (but would make a terrible game mechanic and encourage boring range-only play).

Munin
Nov 14, 2004




FRINGE posted:

I have never liked "disngagement" being a problem/penalty. Backing out of range is one of the safer things you can do in melee.

What game started that?

Entering range is when you should take a disadvantage (but would make a terrible game mechanic and encourage boring range-only play).

It's to allow for some sort of positional play for covering characters. If there is no engagement concept then enemies could rush straight through your lines to hit the undefended people without any issue or penalty. It is to model the fact that your front line characters will in fact make some attempt to hold the line.

prometheus12345
Oct 4, 2013


Sensuki posted:

At a glance I can sort of see not really needing Perception as a Priest because you spend a lot of time casting party buffs and are probably going to be primarily a ranged character.

It's the same with dexterity. You only need it for attacks.

Munin posted:

Btw, if two people move past each other who is disengaging from whom?
Nobody, you can't engage somebody if you move.

Sensuki
Dec 29, 2012

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Unless you were making a joke, I disagree because:

You want those attacks and spells to do these things in this order (at least for the Priest): a. Hit, b. Damage and c. Interrupt

All offensive spells (and attacks) require Accuracy, not just damaging spells. While an effect is caused (whether it be damage or a status effect) on a Graze, you ultimately want those attacks (and spells) to hit so that the most effect is gained. So that makes accuracy particularly important for all characters (even Priests).

If I was making a Priest I'd go Intellect, Dexterity, Constitution and Resolve above Penetration, which could be essentially dumped. Might is better than Penetration due to the Healing aspect as well.

That way, attacks and offensive spells hit so more damage, and longer durations of status effects are caused rather than missing and only having some effect, and having the chance (not guaranteed) to cause a mini-stun.

If there's still a way to make a "Battle Priest" who puts a lot of focus on weapon attacks such as with a Morningstar, then Perception might be good. I'm not sure how well supported that concept is though because Priests don't have great defenses, aren't particularly good at weapon attacks and aren't very durable. Perhaps it is viable to play a Hunting Bow toting Priest with max Perception.

Sensuki fucked around with this message at 11:31 on May 26, 2014

prometheus12345
Oct 4, 2013


Sensuki posted:

Unless you were making a joke, I disagree because:

I wasn't joking, I meant a priest that's mostly a supporter.
In most party rpgs I have a character that is mostly a suporter/healer. She will not attack often so she doesn't need high damage(She still needs high might in PoE because it affects healing), high interrupt, or high accuracy.
But you are right Dexterity would be more important than Perception. But Dexterity could still be very low for support priests.

Sensuki
Dec 29, 2012

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Yeah you could probably totally get by with Intellect, Constitution and Resolve (and Might for the Healing), Although you might be losing out a bit if you really need to hit some of those single target spells.

Pallegina has a pretty lovely Dex on the Update 70 char sheet mockup.

Sensuki fucked around with this message at 11:58 on May 26, 2014

Mordaedil
Oct 25, 2007

Oh wow, cool. Good job.
So?


Grimey Drawer

I see where you come from with that, but the tradition of the priest from the games PoE gets inspiration from have completely different traditions.

In D&D 3rd edition (and second edition this still applies retroactively) the term for a priest is known as CODzilla. It means Cleric Or Druid Godzilla. Because with their spells they roughly fill in every character niche on the planet. Need a spellcaster? COD has you covered. Need to heal damage? COD has you covered. Need to fight toe to toe with the biggest baddest rear end demon in the realms and tank hits like nobody's business? COD is better at this than every other class. Need to become somewhat immune to magic so you can take down an opposite party wizard? COD can temporarily become very difficult to stop with magic. Need to dispatch a large army of undead? COD can do this with a couple of spells or turn undead, destroying the entire army. Need to make your entire party more effective so you can effectively split up? COD can make all of you better in every way imaginable. Entering a dungeon full of traps and dangerous monsters? Better get that ro-oh the COD can do that role too. Final nail in the coffin for how broken it is, only the COD has domain over the respect to life and death. They have spells that raise people from the death with no negative consequences and spells that can kill people, every round for as many rounds as they have levels.

Funnily, a lot of people still hate playing them, because any sane DM would want to offset that amount of power with some roleplay that, while not inconveniencing you, at least puts you in respect to what grants you your powers and expects you not to abuse it. Meanwhile, wizards...

Don't get me wrong though, the above is a very horribly broken way to make the priest, it was done that way because nobody really wanted to play the support, they wanted to be a star player and the editions before this the clerics were essentially glorified healing and buffing characters with very minor combat capabilities. This changed with 2nd edition, where they got a significant power boost.

You might find that clerics go back to the old style support you want, since that old tradition mostly applies to people who play a single character and this is a party focused RPG, not a "you are the hero" RPG.

Ugh, that was a long rant, sorry about that.

prometheus12345
Oct 4, 2013


Sensuki posted:

Pallegina has a pretty lovely Dex on the Update 70 char sheet mockup.
It is really low if you consider that godlike gets +2 dexterity bonus.
I think with chanters and paladins the problem isn't that big, because they have limited spell casting. Chanters will attack during chanting and Paladins have less commands in a fight as priests have spells. So you can't really play them only in the supporting role.

prometheus12345 fucked around with this message at 12:27 on May 26, 2014

FRINGE
May 23, 2003
title stolen for lf posting


Mordaedil posted:

In D&D 3rd edition (and second edition this still applies retroactively) the term for a priest is known as CODzilla.
Ive never heard that term before, but in 2e if you used FR style domains this was not so much an issue. Priests of the Sun were good at some things, and Priests of the Earth were good at others, etc...

Mordaedil
Oct 25, 2007

Oh wow, cool. Good job.
So?


Grimey Drawer

FRINGE posted:

Ive never heard that term before, but in 2e if you used FR style domains this was not so much an issue. Priests of the Sun were good at some things, and Priests of the Earth were good at others, etc...

It was pretty popular with the crowd that said 3rd edition was made for ADHD kiddies and only true roleplayers played second edition.

And yes, the sphere stuff was an interesting way to create characters, but from what I've seen of Spoony's Counter-mokey series, there was one sphere in particular that was a bit of a problem:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G5PjlCMlGw#t=304s

Oo Koo
Nov 19, 2012


Sensuki posted:

At a glance I can sort of see not really needing Perception as a Priest because you spend a lot of time casting party buffs and are probably going to be primarily a ranged character.

Reading the example spells in the cleric update, they also seem to do offensive support. All the offensive cleric spells listed have some debuff component. As such I'd expect perception to be useful for increasing their offensive support capabilities by allowing their attack spells to more easily interrupt enemy spells and other delayed attacks.

Sensuki
Dec 29, 2012

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prometheus12345 posted:

It is really low if you consider that godlike gets +2 dexterity bonus.
I think with chanters and paladins the problem isn't that big, because they have limited spell casting. Chanters will attack during chanting and Paladins have less commands in a fight as priests have spells. So you can't really play them only in the supporting role.

I'm not sure what you're saying there, they would seem more dependent on DEX than a Priest. That said, while DEX seems like one of if not the most important attribute in the game, perhaps it is totally viable to play some characters with 9 Dexterity.

On her stat sheet here: http://media.obsidian.net/eternity/...acter-sheet.jpg she only has 35 accuracy, but in the 60-80s range for her own defenses, which might indicate that the values are all made up because if I recall correctly 35 accuracy will miss all of those defenses most of the time, unless the core system has changed.

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Sensuki
Dec 29, 2012

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Oo Koo posted:

Reading the example spells in the cleric update, they also seem to do offensive support. All the offensive cleric spells listed have some debuff component. As such I'd expect perception to be useful for increasing their offensive support capabilities by allowing their attack spells to more easily interrupt enemy spells and other delayed attacks.

It's more on the fact that a fair amount of the Priest's time might be spent on casting party buffs and doing standard attacks. Those offensive spells might not be very often such as 1/encounter or 1/rest and the Priest is squishy, doesn't have a great accuracy with weapons and not the best defenses, so sitting at the back and using a ranged weapon (such as a bow, crossbow or gun) seems to be 'the way' to play.

Before being concerned about whether or not those spells and attacks cause interrupts, I'd be more concerned about their duration and AoE size (INT), Actually hitting those spells and attacks (DEX), Staying alive in combat (CON) and not being interrupted (RES), then perhaps the damage done by those hits and self-healing (MIG) and last of all Interrupt (PER). As a Priest, whether you interrupt or not doesn't seem too important.

That's just me. Although as I said, I haven't played the game, and maybe playing a character who uses a Hunting Bow and maxing Perception still causes a lot of interrupts.

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