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I really don't like Int being the only stat that affects damage in the game, it feels like it's a forced, gimmicky, superficial to give Int SOME sort of importance in combat situations since it was the last stat that didn't really have a role given that all the other stats have a pretty intuitive effect on fighting effectiveness. The system won't be a make or break deal for me if the game's good but if the gameplay system actually looks to be this much of a focus i'd prefer to see it well made. I don't feel all the attributes HAVE to affect the combat stats in the same proportion so they can be meaningful. Sure i see the problems with Int being a predominantly non-combat stat leading to people creating the classical dumb-as-gently caress front line of fighters and keeping a single high Int character (spellcaster most likely) that serves both the the role of his class and the role of the Party spokesperson, but by that same logic if inventories are shared then Str also becomes entirely a dump-stat for mages while Fighting types have no dump-stat so they're disadvantaged from the start. I'd rather have a system like Fallout2 for example when skills determine combat effectiveness and they're all affected by attributes. That way it's much easier to integrate Int into combat stats since you can just make it have a slight effect on ALL combat skills while keeping str/dex etc the dominant stats for their corresponding combat skill (kind of how luck worked in F2) and it would make much more sense in the context. uaciaut fucked around with this message at 11:59 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 11:54
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Furism posted:There are way too many armchair game designers in this thread. Discussing mechanics is fine, but telling Obsidian and/or RK that what they do is stupid is... well, stupid. What is your track record in DM'ing or releasing games with hundreds of thousands of sales? Jesus. I swear some backers must be worse than the worst publisher white collar who knows poo poo about games. I've had 0 complaints about the mechanics of the games i've created hence my track record is p good  Seriously though this whole thread is meant to stimulate intelligent debate, is it not? Especially since one of the dev is actually visiting it regularly, which is really awesome. Of course i can't pretend to be better at the job or tell anyone what to do, i can just give my input on why i think something is amiss. And again i don't like the way int interacts with the player as a combat stat because it seems forced and artificial (and can lead to other balance issues like i said) plus i think there IS a system, already created by other devs and proven to be pretty darn successful that worked on how attributes affect skills and combat in a more elegant way, and i think it's a system that can be used as an example here.
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Dec 19, 2013 14:40
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You know it's not good design when so many people are trying to hard to excuse/justify it, it's almost as if they're trying to convince themselves sheesh.
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Dec 19, 2013 15:37
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Hand Row posted:It's because it is not even a design issue, it is just a god drat name. If they switch Resolve and Int effects and make everyone happy, the design is still the loving same. No and this is also an excuse. Going beyond the realism part (i.e. physical attributes have 0 impact on combat damage but a simple mental attribute affects it), it's clear that without the damage part intellect becomes a dump stat for fighter types. With current P:E int fighters are pretty much forced to not ignore int while casters seem to get away fairly easily with ignoring strength. Other than maybe resolve i don't see a single stat fighters can give up on without sacrificing from their effectiveness, or becoming specialized if you will. I think trying to make all stats be equally important in all situations, combat or otherwise is counter-intuitive to begin with and it's where the whole int affecting damage problem stems from. And i think int can be implemented as a combat-affecting stat better too. uaciaut fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 15:58
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Captain Oblivious posted:Here let me invent a really quick and easy one: It's tied to the growth of one of the multiple defensive stats in this game. Just like in 4E, for example! Well that was hard I'm gonna go take a load off after all that work. Not sure if you're agreeing with me here or not based on your example. Did you pump up your fighter's int to make sure he's better defensively equipped for combat in NWN2?
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Dec 19, 2013 16:04
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Captain Oblivious posted:A Fighter in Pillars of Eternity is a defensive/tank-like role so either tying Intelligence to damage to make his disengaging attacks more potent or tying it to a defensive stat to make him more likely to survive his role are equally valid approaches. You're very inconsistent about arguing and seem confused friend. To reiterate -i said that it's really apparent that int affects damage for it not to be a dump-stat because otherwise it would not affect combat at all (for non-healers at least), which is absolutely true (notice that if you remove the damage part of int this becomes pretty apparent). Note that i did not say there's NO WAY POSSIBLE for int to affect combat by design, there's plenty of ways that Int can be made a good combat stat and i used a fallout2 example in my previous post to illustrate that (where i said int should have a slight affect on all combat stats similarly to how luck affected all skills in fallout). Your example to how int doesn't have to be a dump stat was REALLY bad because in 4e you never actively put points in your fighter's Int to increase their will save or w/e, you go around that with items and whatnot. And even then at the end of the day your fighter still won't have the best will saves because he'll have the highest fort saves which are his strong points. And there are other ways to go around his weaknesses - like chaotic commands and other mind-resisting buffs, hell that's why the buffing system is there in the first place imo. It is true that you can create an-int based fighter in NWN2 with combat insight (an epic feat) but this takes a lot of planning ahead and it's an atypical build, one where most likely str will have become a dump-stat for you. Now re: fighter's role in P:E - i've also said the same thing in a previous post, the way the current stats are distributed is to force to limit the fighters in one way or another, since ALL the stats (bar maybe resolve?) seem to have some level of importance to some aspect of his combat potential and he can't (most likely) focus on all. Thus he's by nature limited to being more offensive or more aggressive. That's fine, i've nothing against specialization in general, but i said that if you look at mages for examples Str has CLEARLY no benefit as a stat for them, it's completely a dump stat for them from the get go, so it DOES affect class balance in a poor way and maybe there is a better way to implement int (and str) to balance things out, because currently int seems to have damage attributed to it just so fighters HAVE to sacrifice something to become specialized while mages are free to stay in their "wimpy no-str but powerful int/resolve" image of old D&D without being taxed for it, which is really bad design imo.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:36
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Captain Oblivious posted:A) Having a decent Intelligence or Dexterity to avoid having a lovely Reflex save as a Defender in 4E is absolutely something you should do, and not something that magic items can wholly ameliorate. 2 or 3 points makes a big difference. A) No, 2 or 3 points make a small difference, you get a +1 modifier for every 2 points anyway so a 3rd point would make no difference at all actually. And beyond what int i gave my figher char at start of NWN2 i never spend a drat point in it afterwards and i really doubt you'll see a single person who really understand the game that chooses a point of Int at the expense of a point of Str just for better will saves, it doesn't make any loving sense. This in particular since we're talking about a party based game where members make up for each others' weaknesses, see the buffing part i mentioned before. B) Well yes, you're artificially inflating a stat to have big role in combat at the expense of another stat and i think this is bad by design. What i tried to say was that it was pretty obvious that they took the damage component of Str and put it to Int to suddenly make Int a good stat for fighter types and it has negative consequences. To reiterate my main point again in a simpler form in case you missed it: - fighters don't get damage for str, they get it for int. - they either try to focus pretty much all stats (jack of all trades master of none) now or sacrifice some at the expense of others becoming "specialized" - str is devalued now even more and it's still a completely worthless stat for caster-types, probably worthless for rogue-types as well; this especially since it's a party based game and weight is split (note that i am aware that weight becomes a more important stat now because different weapon types counter different armor types, i doubt you'll be forced to have high-str casters or rogues just to be able to carry more poo poo, it would be loving horrible) - thus caster types (and possible rogue types) get a free dump stat while fighters don't really get one.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:59
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Captain Oblivious posted:If he thinks NWN2 is 4E that would explain a lot. Ye, that's my bad, thought NWN2 is 4e for some reason; don't really know much about 4e. My apologies friend  coffeetable posted:Yeah, caster types have no interest in health. There's certainly no ranged combat in this game! There is, but i doubt you'll want to keep your mage in the center of the fray. Beyond getting him one-shotted by the odd fighter-type that gets to him i doubt hp will have more use for a caster. You really shouldn't be forced to heavily invest in HP as a long-range caster though. Because if mages would have to invest a lot in Str for more HP then fighters probably wouldn't be able to afford to invest in anything else. And again re: weight being forced to go Str because you can't carry the minimum required would be, imo a bad decision.
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Dec 19, 2013 17:19
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SurrealityCheck posted:Casters only have no interest in strength if there is nothing in the game that lets a caster benefit from a high strength pool. Casters have the same interest in HP pool as any other non-fighter class - to have it as low as possible so they can survive unexpected situations (AOE or any fighter getting through to them) and that's it. It's not a stat they would look for to define their class or specialization, as you can say about a high-Int warrior that would look to increase his damage via int. This probably falls more into the discussion of defensive stats vs offensive stats since you generally want just enough defensive stats to be able to survive a fight and you generally don't look for a specific cap on an offensive stat. This is especially true for non-frontline types, which casters are. SurrealityCheck posted:Health aside, what if high strength gives you access to traits which let you cast faster while wearing heavier armour? etc. And maybe you'll need 100 resolve on your fighter to fight the final boss and finish the game! This isn't about how you make up for bad design choices by forcing people to take a stat they don't want to take through feat requirements and other baits, if the only reason you're taking a stat is to get to a certain feat and otherwise the stat is crap then something's not made right. And of course i'm dealing in the info that's being given and not in "what if"'s. rope kid posted:Of course, you don't want your wizard in the center of the fray, but that doesn't always work out. And even in IWD we had ranged characters relentlessly target casters. This is true but like i said earlier in this post defensive stats are, imo at least, inferior to offensive stats because you always look for a cap with them, especially for non-fighter types. Well inferior isn't the right word here, but you get my point i hope D: I just envisioned int having a better impact by affecting all combat stats by a smaller ammount instead of simply "taking" the damage affect from Str a better decision, with further feat/skill choices allowing players to further increase int effectiveness on a given combat star or not. That's just me. Anyway regardless of all my constant bitching and whining i'm p confident in you guys and i'll play the gently caress out of that game anyway, thanks for taking the time (and nerves possibly) to reply to my poo poo mr. rope kid. uaciaut fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 17:41
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Also isn't Str increasing BOTH weight capacity + # of weapon slots kind of counter-intuitive. If you have a high str you can carry lots of weapons anyway and swap them in and out, isn't an extra weapon slot or 2 redundant at that point?SurrealityCheck posted:This is absolutely true (and one of the many reasons I hate defensive stats in RPGs) and I Don't leave me in suspense man! Really though i think Str will be a dump-stat with different classes looking for different min values to adapt around. Oh how the Might has fallen!!!!  Seriously though, even if they somehow translate getting tanky to being able to do more damage (say like monks do, but you'd argue they need more Con for stamina since they convert stamina wounds into damaging abilities, hope i'm not mistaken), it's not like you'll want to go in and take damage for 5 minutes before really dishing it back, your back line would have finished the job by then and if they haven't tanks will be boring and lovely to play. SurrealityCheck posted:That's not what I meant at all. Sure, you could make things have arbitrary stat requirements - but what I more meant was that stats can be the gateway to other things other than their pure effects, and many of the most interesting effects will probably be unlocked through those! That's kinda similar to what i suggested! I thought letting physical attributes govern their respective combat stats while having int have a smaller impact to ALL the combat stats (more emphasis on casting probably) would allow for more freedom in choosing fighting stats. Plus you could get feats afterwards that increase int effectiveness over a given stat, so you could go int-fighter way or str-bruiser without int being a bad stat if numbers are crunched right. uaciaut fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 19:08
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SurrealityCheck posted:Somehow the older draft of that post got posted o.O Not fun, they're the best defensive stats as well to an extent because a dead enemy is a threat that is entirely removed, every other defensive stat mitigates the threat of said enemy to an extent. That's the main reason offensive stats don't get a cap. rope kid posted:Based on that answer, if you discovered that stat affected all damage and healing, including damage and healing from sources like guns and wands and bows and fireball spells, how would you feel about it? edit: I'd also feel tempted to choose resolve over int as the thing that affects healing and damage the most for some reason, mostly because at the root of any action is the will to perform it. Pretty odd interpretation on my part though. I'd also think that too much power is centralized around that one stat leaving the others much weaker relative to it.
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Dec 19, 2013 19:35
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SurrealityCheck posted:Eh, I definitely enjoy playing a character who is clearly mowing down enemies. People enjoy feeling that their character is strong - and that very frequently comes from kill speed and big damage numbers and crits and explosions and so on. Ehh building full tanky party and spending 15 minutes irl to clear out any trash mob would be counter-intuitive and boring too :p DatonKallandor posted:If you don't make Healing and Damage dependent on a single stat you screw characters that can do both - they effectively need to choose between one or the other, making them either healbots that can't damage or classes-with-healing that can't properly use their healing side. Kind of how pre-4th Edition screwed over Paladins and Monks compared to Wizards and Sorcerors because the former needed far more stats at high values to use their poo poo, while the latter only needed one. Again you don't HAVE to make a single attribute affect a single combat stat, like i said before you can have int (or another stat) affect multiple combat stats to a lesser degree and then let class kits amplify the effect of said attribute via feats etc, it's a much better/more elegant way compared to working around a single attribute that affects ALL healing and damage, at least imo.
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Dec 19, 2013 19:47
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Again though i don't understand what an attribute HAS to govern a single combat stat and why an attribute (or multiple attributes) can't affect multiple combat stats at the same time. It would be so much easier to simply let class kits affect how heavily an attribute affects a stat for THEIR class and modify their effectiveness with feats, etc. Que sera, sera though. uaciaut fucked around with this message at 20:17 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 20:14
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Male Man posted:That adds unnecessary complication to the mechanics to settle a very minor intuition issue. Not worth it. I disagree, i think having stat govern both damage and healing done entirely will create more balance issues since you have to more or less work around it. And i don't care how complicated the mechanics are, i care about how well they work to create a solid, fairly balanced gameplay. Then again i do enjoy working with mechanics and doing math and poo poo so it might just be a personal prefference. To each their own i guess.
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Dec 19, 2013 20:24
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rope kid posted:There's really nothing easy or simple about it. It becomes increasingly complex the more things you add to each stat and the more you intentionally branch off subtypes of weapons, damage, etc. True but outside of each class getting their damage from their own governing attribute (i.e. monks resolve, fighter type str, cyphers and casters int), which would still create a lot of balance problems and complications, i see no way around it. I definitely understand that a more transparent, intuitive system is the ideal thing here since it makes it more accessible to more people and generates fewer complications. Main thing i can say about is i'm sure glad i ain't in your shoes durrrrrr. Good luck with sorting things out though!
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Dec 19, 2013 20:51
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rope kid posted:What is to "get around", that one stat affects damage and healing? The way to get around that is to balance the per-point increase to damage and healing from That Stat against the per-point increase to other valuable things from other stats. Decentralizing where those bonuses come from makes that more complicated, not less. Idk, maybe i'm just too limited in the way i'm looking at design, i think having to balance all other stats around int since it determines damage is counter-intuitive and doesn't really remove the problem you talked about previously, with d&d str being the dominant attribute for most fighter types. More damage will always be the crux of any build, you won't probably look to win fights via maximizing CC duration output (stunning or poisoning them to death), AOE'ing them to death or crit'ing them to death (rng). Sure you can look to make encounters that increase the relevance of said statistics or you can make AoE or Crits be more effective for certain classes but you're still working around int being the damage stat and the fact that you have to catch up with it somehow by compensating in other departments. And comparing the relative combat strength of defensive stats vs offensive stats and int in particular is even more trouble because, like i said before, people are looking for the smallest possible limits in defensive stats and the biggest one in offensive stats. At this point i'd say either removing damage being affected by an attribute as a whole, split it between stats or make the attribute that governs damage class-dependent would all "feel" like better solutions, but i'm not a game designed by profession and talking only by vaguely educated intuition based on the poo poo i've played makes my opinion worth a lot less than yours and of that of the people who work with you. And again i'm 100% sure i'm gonna enjoy the game you guys make anyway so it's a moot point anyway probably D:
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Dec 19, 2013 21:52
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Octo1 posted:Hey rope kid, would it be possible to switch off Intellect's effect on AoE size? It might make it difficult to avoid hitting allies with fireballs and the such. Ha, this is a pretty good question. That UI is gorgeous btw.
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Jan 15, 2014 12:21
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rope kid posted:They should be pretty good in PoE. If you dual-wield you're attacking much more frequently. If you wield a single weapon with nothing in the off-hand, you'll gain a good Accuracy bonus. People like dual-wield (or weapon + shield) over wielding an single one-handed weapon mostly because of bonus stats the second weapon/shield give, i suspect this will be the case for PoE as well unless you let stat bonuses get a slight increase when the weapon with said stats is used alone.
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Feb 5, 2014 16:41
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rope kid posted:* Two weapons - Faster attack rate. Always hoped that someone would come along and make a system where going 1h weapon alone would be viable, i don't think increasing to hit/accuracy alone is enough to make this happen. Sure it's a great bonus early game, but once great weapons/shields start popping out the enchantments on said items themselves are more than enough to offset a static accuracy bonus that 1h weapons might give. Is there no way to have a weapon affinity/connection sort of specialization that 1h-weapon wielders can take later on that lets them be more in tune with their weapon and extract more from the items stats/enchantments? I'll give a raw example of what i'm trying to say here: say you have this 1h sword, celestial fury we'll call it. 10-20 damage, 5 extra lightning damage, 5% chance to stun target. Now you could use it with another sword for faster attack rate, etc, or you could focus completely on going 1h weapons with no off-hand and get a spec bonus at point that lets you gain 20% extra damage and +50% bonus on magical properties from weapons you're wielding (as long as you have no offhand), which would make celestial fury a 12-24 damage, 6 extra lightning damage, 7.5% chance to stun target in addition to the +10 accuracy bonus, which might be enough to convince you not to use said item with an off-hand (be it second weapon or shield). Either way this was just a geeky/semi-autistic rant, i haven't actually got my hands on the backer beta so i apologize if something similar or something else that makes 1h-weapon alone more viable is already set in place,.
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Jan 11, 2015 08:54
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