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rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Lotish posted:

Is there a particular stat I'm gonna want to pump to be a chatty-Kathy or are stats factoring into dialogues going to be spread around the stats?
They're going to be spread around. The physical stats will also see representation, though more often in scripted interactions (the "CYOA" illustrated sequences) than in dialogues.

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rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Ravenfood posted:

I really hope someone makes a kickass unique spear or something, because goddamn do I love me some spears. How are you handling them in the engine? Larger area of engagement in return for slower attacks?
"Regular" one-handed spears have an inherent Accuracy (to-hit) bonus. Pikes have increased range, but are two-handed. Both do piercing damage.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Yes.

rope kid
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I was actually inspired by the D&D Next playtest because they were using straight ability scores for saving throws. I didn't like the specifics as much (I think six defenses is a lot, especially when some are very rarely attacked) but I liked the idea of getting rid of class as a contributor to non-AC-like defenses. I had previously made a 3.5/Pathfinder saving throw modification where an average of two scores, rounded up, provided the save bonus (e.g. 13 Int and 18 Dex = 15.5 = +3 to Reflex) but the normal class/level bonuses were still part of the formula. Eternity uses a 100 point scale for most things, so it was easy enough to just make the attributes contribute to defenses without averaging them or bringing class into the mix.

rope kid
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AXE COP posted:

Strength affecting number of inventory slots is a really stupid idea, holy poo poo. Every other attribute is purely combat-related except for this one thing that you're going to have to pump if you want to carry any important items (especially if weapon swapping is as important as it's been implied to be).
That's a very strong reaction considering that you have a stash for the majority of the party's items that aren't in current use. Also equipped items (including all weapons in sets, whether active or not) are not part of a character's inventory limits.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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AXE COP posted:

Okay yeah, maybe that was an overreaction, but it still seems unnecessary and inconsistent with every other attribute purely being combat-related.
Sure. Not every decision we make on the project is driven purely by rational logic. On many levels, games are about reasoning and problem-solving. On another level, arguably much more importantly, they are about experiences and the feelings you get from them. On a game like Pillars of Eternity, which is very nostalgia-driven, I think it's important to keep the "old feelings" in mind. Many players like the idea of their individual characters carrying individual items, and that the amount of things that they carry is connected to their stats. The general annoyance of this manifests in frequent inventory shuffling. PoE addresses this in two ways: 1) all characters' inventories are visible on one screen 2) the stash can hold additional items that the player decides they don't need to access while they're out in the field. I think our system will not be annoying (it hasn't been so far) and will reflect character stats in a way that a lot of people will like.

rope kid
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The Crotch posted:

It's definitely going to be weird not having strength relate to damage in any way, but I think y'all are overestimating the inventory management issues. PoE likely won't have much in the way of "inventory full, find the item with the worst weight:cost ratio to drop" because you can send stuff you don't plan on using directly to an inaccessible-on-the-field stash. Carrying capacity, in this case, will effectively be combat-related, as it'll be what determines how many alternate weapons, consumables, etc. you can have.

Right?
Yeah, it's the stuff you want to switch out while you're in the field. For long-term carrying, that's what the stash is for.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Darkhold posted:

The health mechanic will definitely be interesting to see in game. My first reaction is 'huh that's weird' but maybe it will turn out to be a great new way to see party health. At worst at least they're trying something that will be exciting to explore.
It's not dramatically different from what's in Darklands.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1p5ODJotT0

The blue bars are Endurance (which would be Stamina for us) and the red (? middle) bars are Strength (Health for us). Notice that at the end of the fight, all of their Endurance pops back up (in Darklands, it doesn't always fully replenish after every fight) but the Strength stays the same.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Sea Otter posted:

As for resource management element, yeah, I wonder how it will turn out, too. Considering the recent STALKER/Fallout references
What references?

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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SurrealityCheck posted:

Come on lotish.

Reswolve!

EDIT: Rope kid, are there any thoughts on diversifying the offensive stat options a little beyond intellect, or?
Sure, but we're starting simple because it's a lot easier to add complexity than remove it. There are really two things I want every attribute in PoE to accomplish:

1) If a player makes a character of any class, they can look at the attribute and say, "My character will be significantly better at <SIGNIFICANT_THING> for having raised this attribute."

And less vital, but still important:

2) If a player makes a character of any class, they will look at at attribute and say, "My character will suffer significantly for having dumped this attribute."

Depending on how wild and wacky you get with varieties of attribute bonuses, it becomes more difficult for both of those goals to be accomplished. A/D&D's stats often do not accomplish both of those goals for any given class.

rope kid
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Item degradation system wasn't part of the original scope. It was added later and removed very shortly after adding. Expert is the same as we've always proposed it to be.

rope kid
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VanSandman posted:

What I'm saying is, for a game that has made the fun and exciting design choice to be "gamist" rather than "simulationist" (for the record I am firmly in the 'gamist' camp) having physical and mental attributes - which will ABSOLUTELY define a character's role in combat before you explicitly pick what role they are going to play just doesn't make sense. Stats are "simulationist." Classes are gamist.
Consider the entire pool of initial Kickstarter backers and people who have become interested in this game since it was announced. Do you honestly believe that this audience would prefer not having ability scores over having some non-traditional ability scores?

I've said this before, but we're not making "a game". We're making a game in the spirit of the Infinity Engine games. And while we want remove the most obnoxious edges of that experience, the IE games were games with ability scores and classes.

rope kid
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VanSandman posted:

I never particularly felt the IE games were defined at all by DnD stuff but rather how they were put together (very carefully, especially Icewind Dale), how they looked (isometric with lovely gorgeous backgrounds), and how they played (pseudo-turnbased!). But that's not what you guys think, so whatever, really. I'm just one guy.
What I'm saying isn't based on some sort of objective personal observation of these games in a vacuum, but on interactions I've had with BG, BG2, IWD, IWD2, PST, NWN, and NWN2 players almost continuously since 1999. If we were making "a" party-based fantasy game, it would be questionable that we'd even have classes, or if we did have classes, that we'd have abilities. Or limited personal inventories. Or a lot of things. Not doing those things certainly makes a lot of rational sense, but IMO it's a mistake to think of game experiences as being fundamentally about rational thought processes. The reasons people love IE games and want to see IE-gamish-things is because of good feelings and memories they associate with them. There is a certain amount we can deviate in all things and still have people say, "Yes, this has the things I love from those games." -- even if by some more objective measure it is a mechanically superior game.

People got mad about the possibility that there wouldn't be six ability scores. Like, just the number. Before they knew what they were, what they could affect, etc. Is it really important that this game have six ability scores? Taken overall, no. Is it really important, overall, that this feels like an IE game? Yes, very much so. The presence of ability scores (despite the infuriating complications they add to classes), the number of ability scores, the naming of ability scores -- those things contribute to that. There are certain things we feel like we can safely gut and not many people will care. There are no halflings, orcs, or gnomes in PoE. Not many people care. There are elves and dwarves in PoE. Some people do not like this, but a ton of people really like this. Charisma is not an attribute. Most players think it's a stinky stat anyway, so no one really cares if it falls off a cliff.

I know this disappoints some people, but PoE is going to have both classes and attributes (ability scores). Exactly what they're named and exactly what they affect is still flexible. My goals for them are what I said before: every attribute can be bumped for some meaningful benefit for every class and every attribute will inflict a meaningful loss for every class if it is dumped (i.e., there are no "opt out" penalties). Meaningful = more than just the bonuses/penalties to the defenses.

rope kid
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VanSandman posted:

I guess I have one last point: If you're goal is to make a game where you can build a character with any stat layout, you're going to have a real problem with balancing difficulty between the people who build totally poo poo characters that suck at what their supposed to do and the spreadsheet guys. Therefore, you're going to have to EXTREMELY limit what effect stats have on a character's combat effectiveness. So why bother with stats at all?
It's way, way less of a problem when there aren't dump stats. Even if you consider stats like Strength in PoE to be arguably more dump-worthy than some of the other stats, it's miles away from Int and Cha and 2nd Ed. and 3.X.

rope kid
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Zombies' Downfall posted:

It all seems like a weird half-measure that won't please any possible audience except apparently people who think nerd tears are a good reason to make design decisions, which is a fine philosophy for people who want the game to fail and ruin Obsidian I guess.
The people on the OEI forums have responded more positively than the people in this thread, actually. The large majority of people who have commented have said they like the general idea and goals but debate some of the specifics.

rope kid
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VanSandman posted:

Honestly, I read this and think: But you're OBSIDIAN. People gave you money out of trust that you can make a drat fine RPG. Do they really not trust you to innovate mechanically while capturing that same emotional impact and fun factor of the old DnD stuff?
Clearly, obviously, no. There is actually a lot of stuff that is subtly to majorly different about PoE's systems vs. D&Ds. Attributes/ability scores are very obvious because you see them right away and so many people consider them to be so fundamental that changes to them stick out.

quote:

Some of the most fun in RPG's I've had lately have been from Spiderweb Software. They scratch that old-school itch for me, and they do it while constrained by an outdated, ugly graphic engine, because they are extremely tightly designed. They feel a lot like IE games, even though they're completely turn-based. And their mechanics don't look a drat thing like DnD and are better for it.
That's genuinely cool, but we didn't Kickstart a game called gently caress You: Suck My Dick: Josh Sawyer's Personal Dream RPG Experience where I do whatever I personally think is sound and neat and good. For better or worse, this was pitched as an IE-like game. It's great that you view the experiences as more abstract than the nuts and bolts, but no, people clearly do not trust me/us to make a good game that is significantly mechanically different. And I know from experience that sort of attitude can poison a player's entire reception of the game.

I have had the pleasure to work on a project where I just got to do whatever I wanted and that was pretty cool. I don't know how many people would have played that weird-rear end game, but the publisher wasn't really concerned, so I went wild. Very few projects are like that. This project is not like that and I feel like we have never pitched it as though it were.

rope kid fucked around with this message at Dec 19, 2013 around 07:50

rope kid
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uaciaut posted:

That's fine, i've nothing against specialization in general, but i said that if you look at mages for examples Str has CLEARLY no benefit as a stat for them, it's completely a dump stat for them from the get go,
Low Str wizards are extremely fragile. Even if they have a lopsided pair of Con/Str scores where Con is through the roof and Str is low, their derived Health (from Str) is still very low. They can take more damage before they need to heal Stamina, but the total amount of damage they can take before being maimed/killed (depending on difficulty) is really low.

The NPC wizard character that's in our default testing party has a low Str and it is not uncommon for him to dive perilously close to death in a single combat. I can keep healing his Stamina throughout the fight, but if his Health goes down, it's not coming back up.

I do think that it's an accurate criticism to say that Strength is currently more of a strategic concern than a tactical concern, but I definitely would not dump it on a wizard as-is.

uaciaut posted:

There is, but i doubt you'll want to keep your mage in the center of the fray. Beyond getting him one-shotted by the odd fighter-type that gets to him i doubt hp will have more use for a caster.
Of course, you don't want your wizard in the center of the fray, but that doesn't always work out. And even in IWD we had ranged characters relentlessly target casters.

rope kid fucked around with this message at Dec 19, 2013 around 16:35

rope kid
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SoggyBobcat posted:

Rope kid, how does a high STR/low CON warrior class play like? My initial assumption when I read what the stats do and the health/stamina dynamic is that a character that wants to be in the thick of the fighting would be better off investing in CON over STR, but now I'm not so sure.
A high Str/low Con character (in general) needs to be healed more to stay standing in combat but can take more damage in the long run because their terminal limit (Health) is higher. Fighters have passive Stamina regeneration, so their effective long-term Stamina in a fight can be really impressive, especially with a high Con. But if that character also has a low Strength, the regeneration isn't going to do anything for the fact that their Health is going down at a disproportionate rate. Spamming healing on a character who is getting relentlessly pounded only lasts as long as their Health does, because healing only helps Stamina, not Health.

rope kid
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Jackard posted:

I've always preferred fast melee classes in these games, like 3e Swashbucklers or 4e Rangers or WoW Fury Warriors

Rogues tend to turn me away due to reliance on stealth. Are Rogues in PoE the fast kind or the slow kind?
If you want a fast moving class, barbarians get Wild Sprint (limited use, but very fast) and monks inherently move faster (a li'l) in combat. If you want a fast-attacking character, use weapons classified as Fast, like daggers, stilettos, rapiers, etc.

Rogues do get Escape, which allows them to break Melee Engagement 1/encounter, which is pretty darn useful.

rope kid
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Disco Infiva posted:

How are the formations coming along? Will our valiant heroes still go through door rear end first, wizard style, foregoing any semblance of tactics? Are they going to be adjustable, like ToEE?
We've done UI work on the formations menu, but it's not finished yet.

rope kid
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A question for anyone reading the thread: if you saw a list of stats presented like this:

Might
Constitution
Dexterity
Perception
Intellect
Resolve

or

Power
Constitution
Dexterity
Perception
Intellect
Resolve

What would you assume the stat that affects damage would be? Based on that answer, if you discovered that stat affected all damage and healing, including damage and healing from sources like guns and wands and bows and fireball spells, how would you feel about it?

rope kid
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uaciaut posted:

Again though i don't understand what an attribute HAS to govern a single combat stat and why an attribute (or multiple attributes) can't affect multiple combat stats at the same time. It would be so much easier to simply let class kits affect how heavily an attribute affects a stat for THEIR class and modify their effectiveness with feats, etc.
There's really nothing easy or simple about it. It becomes increasingly complex the more things you add to each stat and the more you intentionally branch off subtypes of weapons, damage, etc.

rope kid
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In D&D, there already is a single damage stat for a lot of melee classes: Strength. Con and Dex are valuable enough for most fighters that not everyone builds max-Str fighters with dumped Con and Dex. The problem isn't that Strength is the only stat that affects damage for those classes, it's that the other stats don't affect enough meaningful things for those classes to make them attractive alternatives.

rope kid
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Megazver posted:

*cough* The problem is the existence of stats. *cough*
This game will have ability scores and classes.

rope kid
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uaciaut posted:

True but outside of each class getting their damage from their own governing attribute (i.e. monks resolve, fighter type str, cyphers and casters int), which would still create a lot of balance problems and complications, i see no way around it.
What is to "get around", that one stat affects damage and healing? The way to get around that is to balance the per-point increase to damage and healing from That Stat against the per-point increase to other valuable things from other stats. Decentralizing where those bonuses come from makes that more complicated, not less.

rope kid
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Dr Subterfuge posted:

From what I understand guns have an initial shot that can gently caress anyone up pretty well (high damage, relatively low accuracy), but after that first shot it takes awhile to reload, so you probably only want to use it once a battle and switch to something else. Its distinction with loving up wizards is that very few other methods get around their short-duration nigh-invulnerable Arcane Veil spell, so it's especially handy to keep a blunderbuss shot (or whatever) in your back pocket in case wizards try to stall.
Arcane Veil is an instant-use 1/encounter wizard ability that bumps up the wizard's Deflection by a huge amount for about 10 seconds. It's typically used in two circumstances: 1) the fight is starting and arrows/quarrels/spell missiles are flying 2) melee marauders are on you and you need to hold your ground or desperately try to disengage.

Guns do ignore the Deflection bonus provided by AV, but their primary usefulness comes from their good armor penetration and their potential for big damage. Follow-up shots take a long time, so in some battles, that weapon set is only useful for the initial volley and then characters have to rely on their other set(s) for whatever they need. The other problem with all guns is that they have small but significant Accuracy penalties.

rope kid
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CottonWolf posted:

In Eternity, based on what little we know about them, their anime-esque burning spirits are so committed to the cause that they literally generate energy to burn people with. It doesn't come from the gods.
Yes. All paladins are extremely devoted to one cause or organization. Some of these organizations are religious, like the Fellows of St. Waidwen Martyr (Eothasian). Others are political, like the Brotherhood of the Five Suns (Vailian Republics). Some are just extremely devoted to a rigid way of living/working/existing, like the Goldpact Knights (essentially mercenary paladins). Paladins gain their powers from their extraordinary devotion, regardless of what their particular cause may be. Priests tend to be more philosophical, introspective, and nuanced in how they think about/approach things. Paladins don't generally heavily emphasize self-sacrifice for its own sake, but much more than priests, paladins believe that "the cause" is more important than they are -- though they often disagree with how to best help their causes.

rope kid
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SurrealityCheck posted:

Out of interest, what is the niche for crossbows in PoE?

An intermediate point between guns and bows, or even more slow and damaging than guns?
They're pretty much an intermediate between the two, yeah. Regular crossbows are slower to reload/fire than hunting bows or war bows but they do more damage and have better penetration. Arbalests are slower than regular crossbows but faster than guns and have a commensurate increase in damage and penetration over a crossbow. The main difference between the two is that standard crossbows can be cocked by hand and arbalests need to be planted and cranked.

This is not entirely historically accurate, but it gives them a good intermediate position.

rope kid
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We're trying to avoid going nuts with special ammo types but we haven't designed them yet.

rope kid
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SoggyBobcat posted:

Can wizards and whatnot make use of a paladin's passive buffs? If so, arming one with a firearm and putting him/her in the rear with the squishies might have some benefit.
This can be extremely beneficial/a good idea depending on party composition, the paladin's auras, and the circumstances of the battle (enemies + environment).

rope kid
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Grundulum posted:

On modding: I thought I remembered reading something to the effect that PoE would have tilesets like Morrowind did. (That made creating new content really really easy.) How does this square with the use of hand-painted backgrounds like I've seen paraded around the internet and in this thread? Am mistaken or thinking of a different game?
No, no tilesets in the typical sense of the term. Our artists have asset libraries they can recombine in a variety of ways, but they are not grid-based tilesets and they exist entirely in Maya.

rope kid
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The 3D levels are not used to directly generate the collision geometry. That (and the walk mesh) are created separately.

rope kid
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Sea Otter posted:

Might this encourage some players to reload immediately after a failed gunshot at the start of a combat? The same can be said about powerful soul abilities but considering the failure rate and possible rare ammo usage...
It could, but gunshots aren't that powerful. In general, single attacks from any source are not so gnarly that your entire combat success would hinge on them.

rope kid
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Yes, you will be able to name your games and the saves will be grouped by PC. Additionally, Trial of Iron save games use a metal texture instead of wood.

rope kid
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My GDC Next talk (in video form) is free for a while.

http://gdcvault.com/play/1019680/Ga...ty-with-Project

rope kid
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It's a mock-up for the world map, nowhere near final.

rope kid
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Megazver posted:

There were two people familiar with Darklands in the audience... out of how many?
Maybe 30. The audience wasn't that big. GDC Next had a pretty low attendance overall.

coffeetable posted:

Because you mention party NPC interactions in there: in the leaked Alien footage, there was a neat mechanic where you could respond to NPC's banter (if you wanted to) without it interrupting gameplay. Are you doing anything like that in PE?
Nah, we're going to keep it BG-style for the most part.

Icept posted:

My only question is, do you think you could go back to doing heavily publisher mandated work after this?
With the right publisher and the right project, sure. Some publishers get weird ickies when they deal with RPGs because so few external producers have serious experience with them. They wind up asking for incredibly bad/not fun things because they don't really understand the genre (on PC, console, or otherwise).

rope kid
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FR Adventures and the Volo's Guide to ______ books do a lot to flesh out the geopolitical landscape of the Realms, though a lot of it seems odd or unsustainable.

rope kid
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SoggyBobcat posted:

Shale wasn't cut because of her characterization, she was cut because BioWare had trouble implementing her model. She would get stuck in doorways and in geometry and stuff.
This is also why Lily (in F:NV) is smaller than other Nightkin.

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rope kid
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chiefnewo posted:

I just recalled one of my favourite silly parts of Baldur's Gate was constantly selecting a character to see what silly things they would say. For example Xzar screeching "Stop touching me!" It'd be a nifty thing if Eternity also had that.
It does.

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