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I never really found any incarnation of Hannibal scary, and the opera/etc. just pushes that stronger. He's always been presented as a bit of an antihero to a degree (and in Hannibal and Hannibal Rising, he's an actual antihero), because he's typically contrasted against "worse" serial killers (Tooth Fairy/Gumb/Verger) who -are- actually analogous to real life serial killers. He's a comic book character that sits in the "real world" and guides the protagonists on. The largest distinction is that the average person would be in no danger from harm from Hannibal. You have to actually be an annoying rear end in a top hat, a horrible musician, or threaten him in some way. If you aren't any of the above or don't work in a correctional/mental facility (or are in a job he wants), he wouldn't even cross your path. He's contrasted against guys that kill families and screw with their eyes, torture children, help Nazis and eat children, or starve random overweight women and take their skin. He never stands out as "scary" because he comes off as more of a wildcard when contrasted against other people running around. Hannibal (the show) takes this a step further, and makes the whole thing an artistic display. Each serial killer is an artist in their own right, Hannibal is a master sculptor, and is attempting to sculpt Will into something beautiful (in his eyes). I don't think it's trying to frighten as much as attempt to use a contrast of the beautiful and the grotesque to make its own thing. edit: wrote that while out last night, made so many mistakes! Darko fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Apr 20, 2014 |
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Apr 20, 2014 02:05
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Please watch this Hannibal promo. Guaranteed to please. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ogj4ZIt08d0
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Apr 20, 2014 02:18
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Hibernator posted:I actually agree that Fishburne's performance in season one was a little mishandled. They're trying to play with the angry police chief archetype, and they kind of force him into that role too clumsily. He'd yell at the crew and it would feel false. It wasn't a consistent thing, but it would pop up now and then throughout the season. I think the issue with season one is that there are some situations where his character's anger and actions would have some payoff or consequence but it doesn't happen. Like he and Lounds have a pretty serious confrontation so early in the series that already puts Lounds into "why is this character even still alive" territory but obviously nothing happens to her because she's a fixture of the series for now, so it makes Fishburne's outbursts seem impotent.
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Apr 26, 2014 02:02
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Young Freud posted:I wrote a paper for college about Manhunter and Red Dragon and the novel that they were adapted from. There was so much in that I'm tempted to just post the whole loving thing but I still maintain a friend's single sentence review of Red Dragon as "the pretty boy version of Manhunter". I would truly like to read this paper. Zwabu posted:
Mann wears the timeliness of his music on his sleeve. In recent years he was, like, the LAST fan of Audioslave ever. My love for Mann even extends to Band of The Hand. http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/band_of_the_hand/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Band_of_the_Hand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeshhQehpwo It's a movie that was produced by Mann but long rumored that Mann himself took control over and re-shot and edited himself. Looking at scene shots and music selection [Shriekback's 'Faded Flowers'] it's hard not to see why. Actually, here is a decent summation of the soundtrack from allmusic.com: "Though the film was a forgettable dud, Band of the Hand is of some value. The biggest attraction, of course, is the presence of the otherwise unavailable Bob Dylan title song. Produced by Tom Petty and performed with Petty's backing band, the Heartbreakers, the song has a bluesy feel reminiscent of Dylan's classic mid-'60s work, although it's not exactly lyrically memorable. It's not a lost classic, but it's superior to most of what Dylan released on his official album that year, Knocked Out Loaded (admittedly, somewhat faint praise). It does, however, stick out like a sore thumb among the remaining cuts on the record. Since the film was produced by Michael Mann of Miami Vice and Manhunter fame, the soundtrack tends toward the slick, atmospheric synthesizer rock Mann used on both those projects. In fact, the record goes so far as to reuse Shriekback and the Reds, who appeared on the Manhunter soundtrack (with identical sounding songs). As with that soundtrack, most of the angst-ridden material has dated badly, though it is representative of the era. The album's other standout track is by Police guitarist Andy Summers, which actually does sound as creepy and foreboding as the remaining cuts attempt to, and, as an added bonus, hasn't aged badly at all. Like the Dylan song, though, this is only available here. Band of the Hand has some interesting rarities, and Dylan and Summers completists will need to seek it out, but casual fans can pass it by." Sure its got performances by Laurence Fishburne, Lauren Holly & James Remar but hell, it even has Steven Lang himself - aka Freddie from Manhunter, aka David Abrams from Crime Story [another Mann baby], aka Charles Winstead from Public Enemies. I'm sure if you go through the entire cast, they all appeared on Miami Vice at one point. Hell, it even has IGGY from Miami Vice : http://youtu.be/amDGPKgxL9A
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Apr 26, 2014 19:26
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Band of the Hand legit owns. I have both the soundtrack on vinyl and the poster hanging in my apt at the moment. Was it ever released on DVD/blu? I have my old VHS copy ripped to DVD and I think there's a hd version ok Netflix but I haven't seen it available to buy anywhere.
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Apr 26, 2014 20:31
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One last point to the Band of The Hand derail is that I bring it up here because it has stylistic elements that put Mann's work and influences into the context of its time. Yes compared to everything Thomas Harris which came after Manhunter Mann's adaptation is jarring but I don't feel it should be diminished or dismissed outright. I also noted while watching the television Hannibal this week that the finale of the episode sparingly utilizes Manhunters's 'In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida window breaking shot'.
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Apr 26, 2014 23:30
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Dead Snoopy posted:One last point to the Band of The Hand derail is that I bring it up here because it has stylistic elements that put Mann's work and influences into the context of its time. Yes compared to everything Thomas Harris which came after Manhunter Mann's adaptation is jarring but I don't feel it should be diminished or dismissed outright. A lot of Hannibal seems to be inspired more by Manhunter than anything else. I'm fairly certain that Hugh Dancy watched Petersen's performance and built it off that because it almost feels like the same character.
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Apr 27, 2014 00:50
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There are tons of little nods to Manhunter throughout what I've watched so far, it's great.
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Apr 27, 2014 01:29
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Young Freud posted:I have to agree with this. Also, the jungle whistles that open "Strong As I Am" fit perfectly with Shriekback's "Coelacanth", used earlier in the tiger scene, and it creates a kind of leitmotif for Dollarhyde as well as callback to Reba's intimacy with dangerous beasts.  Voting for Manhunter. I am a huge Michael Mann fan and I really like Peterson's portrayal of Graham over Norton's. Peterson makes Graham a person who is terrified of the ability he has. It works so well, especially the scene where he races out of the hospital. One thing about Hopkin's Lecter, while I love it in SotL, I think it does not work as well in Red Dragon. I think part of it for me is that it's a portrayal that works with very little screen time, which makes it not overstay it's welcome. Also, Clarice has never met Lecter, so after hearing the ghost stories about him, the over the top Lecter works because she and the audience expect it. Hopkin's Lecter is perfect for SotL, not so for the other movies. I will also say I hope Hannibal gets to season 4 so I can see them do Red Dragon. I'd also love for them to get the rights to do Silence of the Lambs, because that I would love to see how Mads would go about that material.
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Apr 30, 2014 14:59
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wins.
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I re-watched Manhunter earlier tonight with my wife (Since she's currently obsessed with the "Hannibal" TV show). It's the first time I've seen it since I was about 14, and I was blown away by it. It was the theatrical version, since apparently that's the only version on blu-ray. Is the director's cut worth tracking down? (Sorry if this has been asked, I may have missed it while reading the thread) I'd forgotten that Dennis Farina was in it, which made me very happy. I really loved Tom Noonan as the Tooth Fairy. The soundtrack and general style of the film was great too. Going back to the movie fight: It's been a while since I've seen Red Dragon, too, but I remember being very bored by it. I'm sure I'll be watching it soon, since we're on a Lecter-thon. I'm not looking forward to finally seeing Hannibal Rising, everything I've read about it makes it sound terrible.
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Jun 17, 2014 05:30
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Darko posted:He never stands out as "scary" because he comes off as more of a wildcard when contrasted against other people running around. He's also just kind of a cool guy. I don't know if we really sympathize with or like him, but it's very easy to enjoy characters like Hannibal, who are very well put-together and know what they're doing, and do it with finesse, and that kinda thing. It's just really fun to watch.
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Jun 17, 2014 05:36
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egon_beeblebrox posted:Is the director's cut worth tracking down? (Sorry if this has been asked, I may have missed it while reading the thread) There are, weirdly, nine different cuts of Manhunter that exist. The Divimax DVD, Anchor Bay DVD, and Anchor Bay VHS are all slightly different, the "theatrical" version you saw isn't what was shown in theaters, and the director's cut included on the Anchor Bay DVD is very different also. The good side though, is that what is currently released as the "theatrical" version is the best version of the movie. The director's cut from that DVD/blu-ray has embarrassing picture/sound, no work was done on it at all, and the most substantial thing about it (besides a worse opening and different title card) is the addition of this scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzvDpfnuG3k And this VERSION of this scene isn't even the one on the DVD but rather the one in the cut of the film shown on television, on the DVD/blu-ray the dialogue is the same but it has music and is shot from different angles. It plays up Graham being a bit nuts more with that final part where Chilton is terrified of him for a second.
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Jun 17, 2014 06:01
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Neo Rasa posted:There are, weirdly, nine different cuts of Manhunter that exist. The Divimax DVD, Anchor Bay DVD, and Anchor Bay VHS are all slightly different, the "theatrical" version you saw isn't what was shown in theaters, and the director's cut included on the Anchor Bay DVD is very different also. Hell. I guess I'll just stick with the cut I have. I've bought Army of Darkness a couple times, but I'll be damned if I'll buy nine cuts of one movie. Haha.
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Jun 17, 2014 06:14
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Neo Rasa posted:The good side though, is that what is currently released as the "theatrical" version is the best version of the movie. The director's cut from that DVD/blu-ray has embarrassing picture/sound, no work was done on it at all, and the most substantial thing about it (besides a worse opening and different title card) is the addition of this scene:
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Jun 17, 2014 08:14
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CloseFriend posted:Do we ever see Chilton's office in the theatrical cut? I don't remember that particular set, and it strikes me as oddly barren. Very Lynchian. That scene almost feels like it'd belong in Lost Highway. When the guard give Chilton the TP note, Chilton is in his office. It is a very striking office, and I really like that scene with Graham and Chilton.
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Jun 17, 2014 22:14
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I never knew this could ever be an argument? Manhunter all the way.
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Jun 18, 2014 23:42
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Myrddin_Emrys posted:I never knew this could ever be an argument? Manhunter all the way. Its only an argument because Red Dragon sticks a lot closer to the source material, which a lot of Thomas Harris fans appreciated. Mann was pretty much doing his own thing with Manhunter, and the result is two very different movies. Most people also liked Fiennes portrayal of Dollarhyde just as much as Noonan's, but the other pieces around him aren't nearly as strong as Manhunter's cast. So if you're a huge fan of the Thomas Harris books, and aren't really that into Mann's style, Red Dragon could conceivably win out.
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Jun 19, 2014 17:06
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Basebf555 posted:Its only an argument because Red Dragon sticks a lot closer to the source material, which a lot of Thomas Harris fans appreciated. Mann was pretty much doing his own thing with Manhunter, and the result is two very different movies. This is pretty much it for me. Not necessarily the closeness to the source (although some of Mann's choices to divert away were a little misguided in my opinion- the clash at Graham's house was so powerful. To omit it was lame), but more that I thought Fiennes Dolarhyde carried so much charisma. Also whoever said that Emily Watson did poorly with acting blind, she was way better than Joan Allen. Some people liked that Noonan was mysterious and terrifying, but Fiennes brought more power to the role than Noonan did. The "ant in the afterbirth" scene falls so flat in Manhunter, with Noonan just mumbling the words out. Fiennes made me believe that Dolarhyde felt like the Dragon. There are strengths and weaknesses to both films, but overall I think that Red Dragon had more of what I liked from the books.
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Jun 19, 2014 17:54
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I admit that I have a hard time with Manhunter because it's so aggressively 80's. And it definitely doesn't help that I prefer Hopkins' performance. But despite that, Red Dragon has this atmosphere of total fakeness, where it's aping Silence of the Lambs so hard that I just wanted to watch that instead. Manhunter is a more complete and standalone-feeling project. Honestly, I'm shocked somebody thought Hannibal was a good movie. I watched it recently, and was just blown away by its shittiness. I don't know what it was...the visual style was so pedestrian-looking even when it was trying to be atmospheric. The characterizations were paper-thin and the writing was totally unsubtle. The whole thing felt like shallow fan-service designed to prop up meaningless obstacles for Lecter to plow through one-by-one. I didn't feel any sense of risk because of how forthrightly it built up Lecter as a lovable anti-hero. It was actually about as bad as Hannibal Rising, for me, and for a similar reason: Lecter as a character is more interesting as a psychological challenge to someone else. I'm seldom interested in his specific goals; watching him construct really baroque ways of killing a guy, or being in some specific danger, falls flat for me. But when he's this mental force of nature who manipulates other characters, I'm way more invested. Darko posted:The largest distinction is that the average person would be in no danger from harm from Hannibal. You have to actually be an annoying rear end in a top hat, a horrible musician, or threaten him in some way. If you aren't any of the above or don't work in a correctional/mental facility (or are in a job he wants), he wouldn't even cross your path. True. Which is part of why he does work as an antihero. He's super dangerous, but there's a clear margin of safety. In part because of his weird honor code, but also (as you say) because the antagonists in the film are so carefully established as lovely. Mason Verger is a child molester. Ray Liotta is a sexist pig. Frederick Chilton is a condescending rear end in a top hat, and the guys he kills in Rising are literal Nazis. He's part serial killer, part vigilante. But also, in a way, Silence of the Lambs works as a twisted romantic comedy. I can imagine a lovely Katherine Heigl / Gerard Butler movie about an FBI agent beset by boring, rear end in a top hat men, who falls in love with a serial killer who challenges her emotionally. The TV show actually complicates this, and I really appreciate it, because Hannibal doesn't only target people we're encouraged to dislike. We're actually reminded that Lecter is a serial murderer who hurts innocent people sometimes.
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Jun 20, 2014 02:39
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Hannibal (film) is basically an opera, and should be approached in that manner. Everything is beautiful and grandiose, the score is powerful and drives things much more than any other film in the series, and Hannibal himself is actually somewhat understated as compared to the things that go on around him. You don't really approach that film with the mindset of looking for a nuanced character study - you approach it as going to a night out at an opera or musical theater. It's the only one of the films to really have that approach. The show mixes aspects of that with aspects of the style of Manhunter, and works well with that mix, in my opinion.
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Jun 20, 2014 14:13
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It's cool to watch the three at once and see the level of sensationalism in them gradually shift from the more procedural beginning of Manhunter to the very grandiose Hannibal. Ridley Scott was definitely right to address Hannibal in this more absurd, operatic way, as surely he was aware of how not directly scary Hannibal as a character was in pop culture at that point. After a the smart serial killer basically being the dracula/wolfman/kaiju of the 90s it made sense to go a different way. I was glad he changed the ending from the book though even if Jodie Foster ended up not returning in the end. I like the movie quite a bit more than the book. The show is like, the ultimate show for how it uses ideas from the two most extreme of the three movies and combines them. Sometimes more literally than I was expecting. I was shocked that we actually got to see an episode about Lector improving the sound of the Baltimore Philharmonic or whatever with that one killing, which is mentioned only in passing in Hannibal the film.
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Jun 20, 2014 14:21
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I have to go with Red Dragon here. I love Mann's movies, but most of his 80's stuff just doesn't work for me (and I'm well aware that I'm in the minority here with all of this). I can appreciate certain things like the cinematography and such but I can't get over how 1980's it all is. Somehow those films feel older and more dated to me now than something from the 60's or 70's. Anything from Heat onwards (aside from Ali which I've never seen) is awesome as far as I'm concerned. Okay, maybe not Miami Vice. I'm hardly a Brett Ratner fan by any measure but even so I'm always a bit surprised how much flak he takes for his movies. I've never seen one of his that was completely horrid or without some redeeming features (though not enough to save the films themselves I admit). Red Dragon felt very dark and moody with a really subtle 80's vibe throughout. Fiennes was great I thought and I can't not love Hopkins doing Lecter, even though going from this straight to Lambs is weird because they couldn't make him look younger at all. Norton probably did sleepwalk through most of the movie because he took the part only so he could finance 25th Hour a little while later. I also have a huge soft spot for Elfman's score.
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Jun 21, 2014 16:38
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Fiennes performance was one of the only saving graces of RD, along with the chowing down the painting scene.It's especially impressive given how easy it would have been to ape Tom Noonans offbeat weirdo. I remain in awe of Brett Ratner and his ability to squeeze such lackluster performances out of such a great cast, and even managed to wring a crappy score out of Danny Elfman. Hopkins is good fun in SotL, but Cox really gets under the skin and gives me the shivers in a way he never could. Genuinely menacing, especially as he seems for all the world like a normal, reasonable person, and Grahams reactions to being in his presence is proper;y unsettling. Red Dragon was a by the numbers remake by a hack director whose only saving grace is making the very poor Ridley Scott 'Hannibal' seem a lot more interesting by comparison. The TV show is highly entertaining, but absolutley ridiculous in the most wonderful of ways. It very quickly jumped the shark, caugh tthe shark, recited it poetry, debated philosophy with it, confinced it it was a merman, then served it its own tail for dinnerwhile it wept listening to Elgar.
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Jul 1, 2014 00:52
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The show does a great job of making you laugh while feeling like you need to take a shower at the same time, I love it.
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Jul 1, 2014 02:14
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Fabulous work, OP. I love comments with the screenshots - I reckon Mann is one of the greatest composers of images American cinema's had in the last 30 years. I'd quibble with a couple things, I think you shortchange Fiennes (lacks Noonan's creepiness but he gives a soulful performance and I think owns his character more than anyone else in Red Dragon), and I seriously love "Strong As I Am" and the way Mann uses it always gives me chills (I wish I could find the clip of Noonan saying "Francis is gone" on youtube). The first time I saw Manhunter it made little impression on me, doubtless because I was so used to Demme's hambone Lecter movie. But each time I watch Manhunter again its power over me increases... I find it mesmerizing now. I think it's one of those films that either just connects with you from the first frame or you just don't get into the vibe at all. The opening shot makes my jaw drop now - it's Dollarhyde's camcorder recording as he ascends the staircase of one of his victims, sneaks into her bedroom and watches her until she wakes up. Cut to movie title. Chilling. Last time I watched Manhunter I was struck by how much of it was shot in Atlanta, and frankly it's probably the only remotely classy film to be shot here in the 80s. I somehow hadn't noticed before, maybe because I'd only seen it on VHS. Lecktor's striking white prison that you posted a screenshot of is actually the High Museum of Art in Atlanta.  
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Jul 1, 2014 04:25
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Also, regarding Lecter I do prefer Cox for reasons mostly iterated already in this thread. One thing I find interesting is that Mann considered John Lithgow and Mandy Patinkin for the role, and not only would they have been natural fits but they would've been the only actors to play him who naturally exude that specific flavor of upper crust patrician Northeasterner that I always associated with the character.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:32
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DNS posted:The opening shot makes my jaw drop now - it's Dollarhyde's camcorder recording as he ascends the staircase of one of his victims, sneaks into her bedroom and watches her until she wakes up. Cut to movie title. Chilling. The opening sequence absolutely terrified me when I first saw it, and still does today. I can't really articulate why, but that house(Leeds or Jacobi?) is one of the most realistic and disturbing crime/murder scenes I've ever seen in film. I'm sure it has a lot to do with the way that opener is shot and then also because of the home movies we see later of the family alive actually living in the house, and also the infamous walkthrough Graham does when we see all the blood stains. Just too real I think.
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Jul 1, 2014 14:35
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