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nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

Zoran posted:

The problem with Conquest is that you can still just barely beat its most interesting maps with strategies that make them into boring, awful slogs. Like 17 says maybe you should try using bows and the wall mechanic, but you can still march through with Javelins and Hand Axes and eat a million Poison Strikes if you want. It'll just suck, that's all

This is another testament of the ability of Bonus EXP to transform average maps into good ones. If Conquest had something like that, you'd be incentivized not to play maps in the lamest way possible, and it'd be great. Intelligent Systems hit on a reasonable way to encourage fun play fifteen years ago; I'm not sure why they're so reluctant to bring it back.

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ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

Conquest is also kinda punishing in how evenly you can spread your units. There's just not enough room to train everyone up, so even the fun kinda gimmicky units like Arthur/Charlotte are a bit of an opportunity cost, and Mozu is likely an active detriment.

It's not nearly as bad as Revelations, though. Why would you give me level 10 base class units on chapter 16? Man that game was a mess.

Manatee Cannon
Aug 26, 2010





they only rebalanced 1 unit in the entire game for revelations for some reason and it still baffles me to this day

Strange Matter
Oct 5, 2009

Ask me about Genocide


nrook posted:

This is another testament of the ability of Bonus EXP to transform average maps into good ones. If Conquest had something like that, you'd be incentivized not to play maps in the lamest way possible, and it'd be great. Intelligent Systems hit on a reasonable way to encourage fun play fifteen years ago; I'm not sure why they're so reluctant to bring it back.
I'd say it's because BEXP in Radiant Dawn completely trivializes large parts of the game, but they let you grind into the stratosphere in Awakening so who knows what their rationale is. Playing with BEXP in mind definitely makes the Tellius games way more fun and interesting though, especially the ones with treasure chests.

Last Celebration
Mar 30, 2010


ApplesandOranges posted:

Conquest is also kinda punishing in how evenly you can spread your units. There's just not enough room to train everyone up, so even the fun kinda gimmicky units like Arthur/Charlotte are a bit of an opportunity cost, and Mozu is likely an active detriment.

It's not nearly as bad as Revelations, though. Why would you give me level 10 base class units on chapter 16? Man that game was a mess.

Mozu is worth training imho because of her natural reclass to archer, at least if you know to give a bronze bow and second seal to Corrin on her starting map. Her growths are good once you get her a few levels which is way easier than feeding kills to most growth-type units, and archers get a lot of stuff in Fates (axe-tier might on bows, Quick Draw, Certain Blow to brute force the weapon triangle) that make one with good speed and strength really nice to have around.

Maybe itís also that I sucked though (probably), but I honestly struggled to find a lot of Conquest units that can consistently one-round without investment though.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

I think the issue is that you do have to dedicate both training and a second seal to her, and there are a lot of (usually better) options for that early Second Seal, including Corrin and Jakob/Felicia. Even more, you get Niles pretty early on and optionally Shura not that long after.

Not that Mozu is absolutely terrible (if you babysit her she's probably easier to use than Laslow and maybe Peri), but I usually find that the exp she needs to get going is better served even split among several other units.

Elephant Parade
Jan 20, 2018



I put a little effort into training Mozu early on and she became my strongest unit next to Corrin

Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013


Zofia Today
Alm: Human Disaster


Lipstick Apathy

Junpei Hyde posted:

FE4 is a game where I dont have to particularly worry about who ends up havign a kid with who, right?
Kinda! Some kids will turn kinda lovely at first but they're easily fixable because the game gives you so many options (namely, items) to fix your gently caress-ups. If you don't mind slight spoilers, hopefully this will work as a guide of sorts for pairing and pairing-related shenanigans

First off, some short tips:
#1: Any unit can only carry about 7 items.
#2: Regardless of the skills and stats and 80's haircuts (OH MY!), some parents will not pass down their items/weapons unless you plan for it. The pawn shop is your friend here.
#3: "Personal" skills are potentially inheritable for both children. "Class" skills are not.
#4: With only three notable exceptions, Daughters will get their inventories from their moms, while sons will get their inventories from the dads.
#5 Weapons with over 50 kills open up the ground for allowing characters to use Crit even if they don't have the "Critical" skill.

Dumb notes:
Mom and Noteworthy Dad Names are bold
Notable inheritable skills and items are underscored
Me being a giant, dumb dork is italic (and just in general ).
To avoid confusion, lower case "skill" refers to stuff like class or personal skill, while upper case SKILL refers to the actual stat.

Let's start with the two canon couples that you can contribute with by making the parents do things/acquire loot.
  1. Deirdre/Sigurd is one of the three pairings you cannot do anything about aside from contributing with solid stats by making Deirdre do some fighting. Their son, much like his dad, one of the most solid/reliable FE Lords before the 3DS era as far as stats/performance goes. The best swords are available to him right from the get-go. His dad's silver sword, if it was used ruthlessly, will do him a lot of favors early on.
  2. Ethlyn/Quan is also canon/set-in-stone/whatchamacallit. Their son starts in a kinda shabby position as far as lords go but he's not terrible with a little training (which you'll get a good couple of chances to do). Their daughter is the real badass-to-the-max that needs no training and your musclelass for the last two maps. She will inherit any inventory Quan gives her.

Now, for the pairings you can really mess around with!
  • Edain is a healer first and foremost. Yes, she can gain access to magic tomes, but like in FE2, healers are really necessary on FE4 on account of healing items not being a thing. She has a healer daughter and a mounted-archer son. Jamke and Azelle are really solid dads for both kids. Midir is OK as a dad because he can provide some good bows and Pursuit for the son but his stats and growths are kinda garbage.
  • Ayra is your badass sword lady. Both her children are sword kids, kick a lot of rear end and both inherit Astra, Pursuit. It's the least difficult parentage option to mess up because Ayra is, overall, a really solid unit whose only downside is that she has kinda terrible defense growths (both physical defense and resistance) but her speed and SKILL are top-notch, so it balances out to make her a really powerful physical unit and a bit of a dodge tank. Physically-oriented parents like Naoise, Chulainn, Lex and Arden are recommended, but if you decide to have Ayra paired up with a magical boy, their magic potential is potentially feasible enough to give them magic swords to attack from a distance. Again, Ayra's children will turn out good regardless of the dad. Just make sure the dad has at least one OK sword and the son will be taken care of.
  • Lachesis is many things. Best girl is just one of them. And while she starts kinda weak, both her children will inherit A-rank swords aptitude and her Charm skill from the get go. Beowolf is supposedly the best dad due to giving Pursuit and Charge, but by the gods keeping that rear end in a top hat alive proved kinda difficult at times and his growths outside of Strength have been straight-up dogshit in pretty much all of my playthroughs. Finn will give good stats plus Pursuit (the skill that allows you to double if your attack speed is better than the enemy) and Miracle, even if he can't really pass down any of his weapons unless you land the final blow on a couple of bosses. Naoise, Dew and Chulainn are good options stats-wise, but neither has pursuit, so beware of that.
  • Sylvia is the best utility/support unit, so going purely on a technical basis, she's the actual best girl (she's also a really fun character, so that helps). All her stats are laughable and keeping her alive if you decide to keep her on the active front lines is a pain in the rear end, but if you actually plan your strategies, she's among your best assets because in FE4, Dance can work for up to 4 units . Her two children can mostly just be also utility party members, so Padre Claud is the best option, but if you decide to make the boy a fightin' mage, Azelle and Lewyn are good parental options.
  • Erinys is your lone Peg Knight. She'll be kicking rear end and taking names in no time. Her daughter will be your lone Peg Knight too, but she'll turn solid regardless of the dad. The son will be sorta solid but unremarkable if the father ain't either Azelle, Lewyn or Claud.
  • Brigid is your badass archer and she will pass that badassitude and inventory down to her son no problem. It's her daughter who's kinda in a pinch. Like Ayra, physical parents are recommended, especially if they allow her to double. Beowolf is probably the most solid recommendation for that, but Dew can actually help her realize her thief potential + giving her Bargain, Chulainn is just insane as an overall dad for her due to his growths being comparable to just slightly lower than Sigurd's.
  • Tailtiu is your lone magical girl. She kinda enters the game underleveled but she needs very little training to prove her worth in no time. She comes with Wrath. Wrath is a difficult but fearsome skill in FE4: Basically if her health goes below 50%, her next attack will crit. No buts and no ifs. She will crit, like Alm and Celica in the final map getting a guaranteed crit as long as they're near each other in Gaiden. Both her children are magical kids. Lewyn and Azelle as dads are the best for slightly different reasons (Azelle provides the ever-reliable Pursuit while Lewyn provides the highly exploitable Critical and Adept + Forseti) while Lex gives terrible magic growths but solid physical defense and the fearsome Vantage + Wrath skill combo.
So there. Hopefully this silly wall-o-text post will help you.

SKULL.GIF
Jan 20, 2017




Reading over some 3H stuff, it amuses me that the Black Eagles as a whole are way easier to recruit than Blue Lions/Golden Deer. Some leader you are, El.

The only non-BE character that's as easy to recruit is Marianne (and Sylvain)

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

Caspar isn't too bad since Byleth has a natural aptitude in Brawling (but you have to aim for him specifically, since nobody else needs it), and Dorothea isn't really hard to get since you should be raising Authority all the time. Linhardt is a bit of a pain if you're not abusing supports though, since he needs Reason C (and Byleth isn't really going to be casting spells much pre-timeskip), and unless you're Bylad and also working on Sylvain, nobody else shares his requirement.

Ferdinand also needs dedication to get, since his B-support is locked for post timeskip so you have to recruit him the old fashioned way. The Heavy Armour requirement is also kinda bleh, unless you're doing Blue Lions so you can also get Raphael as a result.

I feel like Blue Lions is actually the easiest house to gut. Sylvain's free if you're Bylass, and Ingrid has a really low requirement. Felix has a high Sword requirement but you should be using swords all the time anyway. Mercedes/Annette are kind of annoying to get, but eh, you can just support chain them.

Last Celebration
Mar 30, 2010


ApplesandOranges posted:

I think the issue is that you do have to dedicate both training and a second seal to her, and there are a lot of (usually better) options for that early Second Seal, including Corrin and Jakob/Felicia. Even more, you get Niles pretty early on and optionally Shura not that long after.

Not that Mozu is absolutely terrible (if you babysit her she's probably easier to use than Laslow and maybe Peri), but I usually find that the exp she needs to get going is better served even split among several other units.

Honestly Iím probably a tad biased because my first Niles somehow rolled -7 on his average speed which even with his monster base means he didnít consistently double. Also Iíve always been scared of giving up Jakob on healing for Great Knight since the former has knife ultity on top of being a healer with good frontline stats (at least until everyone starts promoting) but it probably is a huge advantage at least for a while.

FoolyCharged
Oct 11, 2012

Somebody call for an ant?



ApplesandOranges posted:

Caspar isn't too bad since Byleth has a natural aptitude in Brawling (but you have to aim for him specifically, since nobody else needs it), and Dorothea isn't really hard to get since you should be raising Authority all the time. Linhardt is a bit of a pain if you're not abusing supports though, since he needs Reason C (and Byleth isn't really going to be casting spells much pre-timeskip), and unless you're Bylad and also working on Sylvain, nobody else shares his requirement.

Ferdinand also needs dedication to get, since his B-support is locked for post timeskip so you have to recruit him the old fashioned way. The Heavy Armour requirement is also kinda bleh, unless you're doing Blue Lions so you can also get Raphael as a result.

I feel like Blue Lions is actually the easiest house to gut. Sylvain's free if you're Bylass, and Ingrid has a really low requirement. Felix has a high Sword requirement but you should be using swords all the time anyway. Mercedes/Annette are kind of annoying to get, but eh, you can just support chain them.

That's not how you spell axes/fists?

Cattail Prophet
Apr 12, 2014




I was promised dorkitude in italics and then you never used any!

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

Last Celebration posted:

Honestly Iím probably a tad biased because my first Niles somehow rolled -7 on his average speed which even with his monster base means he didnít consistently double. Also Iíve always been scared of giving up Jakob on healing for Great Knight since the former has knife ultity on top of being a healer with good frontline stats (at least until everyone starts promoting) but it probably is a huge advantage at least for a while.

Conquest is really about speed RNG. My first run Xander consistently failed to get Speed so he was getting doubled left right and center and even his fantastic defense meant nothing to Ninja Hell.

I ended up using Benny and Keaton a lot, because even if they're slow, they were never banking on being fast. Shura's excellent bases also means that he's fine since he's never really relying on his terrible growths anyway.

Manatee Cannon
Aug 26, 2010





I think you only need 1 def on base xander to survive ninja hell on any difficulty if you're willing to stall at chokepoints

just take his weapon away so he isn't counter attacking and he can't die

FoolyCharged
Oct 11, 2012

Somebody call for an ant?



Manatee Cannon posted:

I think you only need 1 def on base xander to survive ninja hell on any difficulty if you're willing to stall at chokepoints

just take his weapon away so he isn't counter attacking and he can't die

Counter attacking? The whole reason he counters it so hard is that he has so much def the ninjas literally wont attack him(and consequently debuff him to a state where he can die).

Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013


Zofia Today
Alm: Human Disaster


Lipstick Apathy

Wark Say fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Jul 27, 2020

Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013


Zofia Today
Alm: Human Disaster


Lipstick Apathy

OK, here's the actual tweet.

https://twitter.com/Rika_OwlForest/...8158280704?s=20

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.


Hey there, we're currently in the midst of implementing Sigune's skill, Reinforcement, but a question now needs to be raised.

The way reinforcement works is by spawning 3 NPC fliers, 1 Falco Knight and 2 Pegasus Knights that depart after 3 turns, that are controllable.

The thing is to do this we kinda... need to make ALL NPCs controllable. So there in lies the question.

If we were to do this, all NPCs would become controllable, meaning NPC's that would have to escape the map are suddenly under your command. Now, we'd make escape areas for you to evacuate those units, But it would suddenly mean that the difficulty of recruiting some units has uh... evaporated. At the same time, not having it this way would mean implementing some forced way to keep those NPCs from moving at all, creating way more problems itself.

So, what do you guys feel. Controllable NPCs, or find another route?

FoolyCharged
Oct 11, 2012

Somebody call for an ant?



Why not take the summon approach and make them player aligned units?

Zore
Sep 21, 2010




Is there a reason you're really tied to having that as a personal skill? Every time they've put something like that in the games its been insanely busted.


Alternately is there any way you could potentially steal the code from how they implemented Phantoms in FE8?

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.


Zore posted:

Is there a reason you're really tied to having that as a personal skill? Every time they've put something like that in the games its been insanely busted.


Alternately is there any way you could potentially steal the code from how they implemented Phantoms in FE8?

Because busted is fun. And as for Code, this isn't a "constant summon" Sigune can summon 3, for 3 turns, once per map.

FoolyCharged posted:

Why not take the summon approach and make them player aligned units?

As for why they're NPC's and not player units. I cracked the limit of how many player units we can have long ago, So the question is raised that, if we spawned these three as players, then you suspended and resumed would they remain, or disappear. If they'd remain, it would be fine, but if they disappeared, then... we wouldn't be able to have them, period.

rannum
Nov 3, 2012



Don't make them controllable at all. Just have them summoned as Allied units.

Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013


Zofia Today
Alm: Human Disaster


Lipstick Apathy

Just be like Genny, let 'em rip and have them be ready to roll.

Carlosologist
Oct 13, 2013

Revelry in the Dark



imo I don't think being able to control that many powerful units would be good for balance, so it doesn't make sense to include it

The Shortest Path
Jun 21, 2012

It's a lovely morning on the forums, and you are a horrible goose.




rannum posted:

Don't make them controllable at all. Just have them summoned as Allied units.

Yeah I think this ends up being the best implementation of the skill without affecting too much of the rest of the game, if you can't get them to work like 3-turn phantoms.

Alacron
Feb 15, 2007

-->Have tearful reunion with your son
-->Eh

Fun Shoe

gently caress balance, give me busted stuff.

Terper
Jun 26, 2012




Project Ember is another FE6 hack that introduces Reinforcements and gives it to Douglas. They're green units, but on the first map you get them, their leader (an OC named Roach) is blue, and you're tasked with not killing his fellow soldiers. After that you can summon him and his crew as greens on any map after that, and they have cute dialogue when they show up on a map for the first time. It was a great way to endear me and my friends to them and to deploy Douglas on every map.

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.


rannum posted:

Don't make them controllable at all. Just have them summoned as Allied units.

That was the argument when it came to making them. Around permanently but are uncontrolled NPCs. Or controlled and around for limited terms. In the end we liked the practical application of the latter more because it offered more tactical decision making from the player. Also Tanith's Pegasi's greatest strength was that you could aim them.


Carlosologist posted:

imo I don't think being able to control that many powerful units would be good for balance, so it doesn't make sense to include it

Over the years a lot of mindset change has shifted from "What's the most balanced thing to do" to "What's the most fun thing to do." In the end, we settled that every unit having fun things they can do was better for the player, even if some of that stuff is in fact, broken.


Terper posted:

Project Ember is another FE6 hack that introduces Reinforcements and gives it to Douglas. They're green units, but on the first map you get them, their leader (an OC named Roach) is blue, and you're tasked with not killing his fellow soldiers. After that you can summon him and his crew as greens on any map after that, and they have cute dialogue when they show up on a map for the first time. It was a great way to endear me and my friends to them and to deploy Douglas on every map.

I was unaware, though Gen, Eri and Kah also appear in Base Convo's so they are in fact, characters too, just... apart of Sigune.

Anyway, we technically have two more difficult options to include that that is.

Option 3. The Flyer NPCís are coloured Yellow and controllable on the Player Phase
Difficulties: Theyíd still move on the NPC phase and itís a bitch to program

Option 4. The Flyer NPCís are coloured Yellow and controllable on the NPC Phase
Difficulties: Making the rest of the NPCís still follow their AI routines.

Cattail Prophet
Apr 12, 2014



Purely from an in universe standpoint, I think it would be easier for me to accept them being uncontrollable as just videogame logic (after all, it's how green units work already) than it would if they were arbitrarily turn limited. What reason would they have to up and leave the battlefield in the middle of a fight? If they were a scripted thing for a single chapter you could just make up a plot excuse, but... they're not.

Obviously this line of reasoning is entirely orthogonal to the question of "What's more fun?" but those are my thoughts.

Ulio
Feb 17, 2011



Is there way to avoid uses for equipment in FE7, like you can with armshift in Awakening

Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013


Zofia Today
Alm: Human Disaster


Lipstick Apathy

Ulio posted:

Is there way to avoid uses for equipment in FE7, like you can with armshift in Awakening
Only if you miss!

No, but for real, armsthrift was the bomb in good hands.

Hunt11
Jul 24, 2013



Grimey Drawer

Ulio posted:

Is there way to avoid uses for equipment in FE7, like you can with armshift in Awakening

You can repair stuff with the Hammerine staff but that is it.

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

honk honk





College Slice

armsthrift was always overrated, it just saved money and unless you're playing thracia specifically, money isn't a big deal

Alacron
Feb 15, 2007

-->Have tearful reunion with your son
-->Eh

Fun Shoe

Armsthrift was great because it let me tell my dumb "But I might need it later" reaction to go away for once

Malpais Legate
Oct 1, 2014



"I'm not a hoarder!" I say with a caravan filled with unused light brands and 1 durability weapons I said I'd Hammerne.

Ulio
Feb 17, 2011



Hunt11 posted:

You can repair stuff with the Hammerine staff but that is it.

Don't think I have that. Almost done with FE7, been much longer and harder than FE Awakening just cause you can't grind as easily and my army composition was poo poo. I only had cavalry units leveled up until I hit the desert level where you meet Hawkeye. I lost 4-5 units as well, I think only Sain is the unit I lost which I was actively using. Still not done but looking at the wiki looks like I only have 2 chapters left.

Btw are Ninian and Nils basically the ancestors of the Manaketes from Awakening? Also do all dragon people have names starting with N?

Tae
Oct 24, 2010

Hello? Can you hear me? ...Perhaps if I shout? AAAAAAAAAH!


Alright, who the gently caress is Darros

Like Clockwork
Feb 17, 2012

It's only the Final Battle once all the players are ready.



Pirate from FE1, which is why you don't remember him.

Ulio posted:

Btw are Ninian and Nils basically the ancestors of the Manaketes from Awakening? Also do all dragon people have names starting with N?

FE7 is completely disconnected from Awakening. Also no, their mother's name is Aenir and there's a little girl dragon in the same universe named Fae.

Like Clockwork fucked around with this message at 03:43 on Aug 2, 2020

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Blaze Dragon
Aug 28, 2013
LOWTAX'S SPINE FUND



Ulio posted:

Btw are Ninian and Nils basically the ancestors of the Manaketes from Awakening? Also do all dragon people have names starting with N?

FE7 has no connection to Awakening, they're different timelines. Even from a meta perspective, the Manaketes have existed as early as the very first Fire Emblem (Tiki in Awakening comes from there, in fact).

And dragon people have lots of letters to start their name with! Like Tiki. That's a T!

Tae posted:

Alright, who the gently caress is Darros

Random guy from Marth's games. Not very memorable, like most characters from Marth's games. But hey, Ippei art!

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