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Rimusutera
Oct 17, 2014


Rolling in with my obligatory position of; if it makes anyone complain about how it feels bad to miss out on something else because they didn't manage the mechanic properly, its a good and correct Fire Emblem mechanic.

Fatigue is good.

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Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013


Zofia Today
Alm: Human Disaster


Lipstick Apathy

Alxprit posted:

Genealogy was great because you can use your entire army in every map even if some of them sucked, that's the kind of system I think I'd end up preferring.
Eh, every unit in Genealogy has something going on for them enough to make them not suck. It just takes understanding what makes them work and such. Especially in subsequent replays of the game.

Also Fatigue is interesting and it definitely made me own up my decisions in FE5 and the dungeon crawling in FE15. But it needs to be implemented as well or better than it was in those games going forward.

Captain Cappy
Aug 6, 2008



Amppelix posted:

you realize this just reinforces the point, right? fatigue isn't actually so bad that it forces you to use all the worst units in the game. but its mere existence causes you to *think* about the prospect in a way that you never would otherwise.

I'm saying it's interesting as a one-off mechanic but isn't interesting enough to bring over to other games. On your first playthrough it is spooky and you worry too much about it, which is fun and good. Then on subsequent playthroughs you kind of just make sure not to deploy all your best units all the time, especially when you don't need them. If they kept it in future games it would just end up being second nature for veterans (boring) and also lead to units/enemies being blander (stats-wise) like they are in Thracia.

Edit: I guess the point I'm really trying to make is that one-off mechanics are good because they give the games their own identity. I think Fatigue, Capture, and Scrolls are good and maybe one of those should have made it into future games but not all of them should have. It lets Thracia have an identity that some of the other games really lack. Like what's the first thing one thinks of when they think about FE7? Rain?

Captain Cappy fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Oct 14, 2020

Last Celebration
Mar 30, 2010


Wark Say posted:

Eh, every unit in Genealogy has something going on for them enough to make them not suck. It just takes understanding what makes them work and such. Especially in subsequent replays of the game.

Even Arden?

Rimusutera
Oct 17, 2014


I don't think "it gives x in the series game an identity" is a particularly convincing argument to say it shouldn't be implemented elsewhere. Obviously things shouldn't be thrown in haphazardly because the other side of this is that mechanics work together to produce an over all experience and what works in one configuration might not in other but if it *could* work its worth considering/trying.

Also the first thing I think of when I think of FE7 is the way it implements having three lords, honestly.

Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013


Zofia Today
Alm: Human Disaster


Lipstick Apathy

Try chapters 3 and 5 with Arden as your goalie while your mounties take care of the timed objectives. Watch 'em all succumb to the beefy defenses of our strong 'n tuff boy.


Respect the beef.

Amppelix
Aug 6, 2010





i found thracia 776 dot jpeg

Alxprit
Feb 7, 2015

A lady after my own Soul-Heart.

Just barely not pictured, the boss with a siege tome that can reach the middle of the hallway and who will just murder the child prisoners as they try to escape.

Amppelix
Aug 6, 2010



not just a siege tome, two of them!

E: also not pictured though is the fact that all the enemies are scrubs who couldn't hit the broad side of a barn, and that's including the boss

Amppelix fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Oct 14, 2020

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

rattle rattle





College Slice

Fatigue only works in Thracia because stat caps are so low and enemy stats suck so much that your B listers can still function. In a game like Awakening or 3h the people you don't deploy regularly are just unusable.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


in three houses the game is designed with you deploying everyone you have, and that isnt really true of awakening.

Amppelix
Aug 6, 2010



cheetah7071 posted:

Fatigue only works in Thracia because stat caps are so low and enemy stats suck so much that your B listers can still function. In a game like Awakening or 3h the people you don't deploy regularly are just unusable.
stat caps usually aren't so low but plenty of other games fit the "enemies generally suck" description, like 1-3 and 7-9, plus some other games on lower difficulties.

if you read my original post i didn't ever think fatigue would fit something like 3H (i mean come on you have like 20 units total in that game usually)

and it doesn't have to be about enemies being so terrible that base level units take care of them. you can keep up the levels on more than 10 units in a playthrough in any fire emblem game, you know.

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

rattle rattle





College Slice

Yeah I guess that's true. I was just saying that a game has to be designed around fatigue existing, rather than just slapping it onto a game. But you weren't saying otherwise, so we're in perfect agreement, I think

Amppelix
Aug 6, 2010



i do think you could liberally slap it onto fire emblem 3, imo. like just implement the system exactly as it exists in thracia with no other changes to the base game and it would not only be fine but make 3 a lot more interesting.

any other game in the series would probably need some tweaking to work, but not a lot in some cases like 6. isn't maiden of darkness going to have something like fatigue?

Can Of Worms
Sep 4, 2011

That's not how the Triangle Attack works...


This twitter user is trying their best to make a Blazing Sword anime happen, bless their heart.
https://twitter.com/hirofe1/status/1302177112518881280
https://twitter.com/hirofe1/status/1308060579572019200
https://twitter.com/hirofe1/status/1315266127820279809

sharrrk
Feb 13, 2012

It's time to party!


yeah in 3 houses you can absolutely use your entire army without grinding, unless you went out of your way to recruit like Every student instead of just a few

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

From my point of view, the Jedi are evil. But what really is... evil?

I went out of my way to recruit Every Student and I had so many paralogues that I still ended up a bit ahead of the curve.

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

Even then, if you recruited Every Student you'd have no reason to use say, Flayn or Lorenz, for instance.

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

rattle rattle





College Slice

Flayn is one of the best characters in the game though?

Rescue is seriously powerful, and she also gets fortify. She's an amazing utility character

ApplesandOranges
Jun 22, 2012

He will know I am near when he hears the screams of my enemies.

She's fine, but without Physic she's largely outpaced by Mercedes unless you're doing some speedtricks to pull people ahead to end a stage quickly.

But I guess you could shelve Linhardt instead.

Rimusutera
Oct 17, 2014


A bunch of the modern games, like Awakening and Three Houses give you a ton of tools/mechanics to excessively train what units you want even on higher difficulties. The draw backs of spreading your exp around is less intensive because there's way more exp to go around anyway.


ApplesandOranges posted:

She's fine, but without Physic she's largely outpaced by Mercedes unless you're doing some speedtricks to pull people ahead to end a stage quickly.

That's part of the point of Rescue = good though. Flayn also has Restore which is a seriously underrated spell.

Mercedes and Physic in general are overrated memes.

Rimusutera fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Oct 15, 2020

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

rattle rattle





College Slice

Both Mercedes and Physic are also very good

Rimusutera
Oct 17, 2014


I mean everybody kinda good its 3 Houses blah blah blah, but we're in a context of discussing if you'd want to take Flayn or Mercedes in a deployment slot and people frequently overrate the latter and here's why; healing is incredibly redundant in 3 Houses, basically every mage has access to their faith list to start with through the simple trick of the tutoring system, making a unit whose just a key healer or judged as such somewhat actually a drawback. Mercedes doesn't add a lot of proactive stuff to your team kit, which is actually bad. She kinda does get Waning Shot which never gets talked about but isn't the greatest.

There's a similar dynamic here to the Clerics = Healer meme with D&D. Clerics in that game actually have a lot of stuff that prevents damage outright or enables fast kills on monsters yet they're often pidgenholded as the 'healer'. Sure, poping a Cure Wounds now and again is necessary but if you can help prevent damage by making a monster or that evil necromancer unable to damage you at all, because they're dead, you don't have to do that. Its similar in 3 Houses where alot the best things in the meta assessment of the game are proactive strategies that let you make active decisions on controlling the map. A lot of the movement utility stuff in general fits here, along side efficient ways to kill enemies, mooks and bosses alike, that in particular nullify counter attacks (ie brave effect combat arts like Swift Strikes)

In this vein physic is overrated. Its good and nice to have but not the make or break of a magic character like its being implied to be by saying it makes a character with it better than a character with Rescue. In a similar vein Restore gets overlooked a lot despite helping you nullify tons of status effects enmasse. Thats a way less prevalent ability in the spell lists than just "restore some number of hit points" and doesn't get mentioned nearly enough.

As to Rescue being only good when you "LTC the map" or whatever, is a misrepresentation of what makes it good. It gives you control over movement and position over the map which taken to its extreme can and does enable LTC stuff but not just that. You can use Rescue to cheese tougher enemy formations by picking a key unit off over a particular turn for example, even in ways that don't 'save you turns' or whatever but do enable you to trivialize the map. Its so much more impactful of a unique ability than more redundant healing.

If you forced me to tier list the 3 Houses playable units I'd first off make separate tier lists for each route but on each of the ones you can have both Mercedes and Flayn I'd rank the former kinda mid tier and the latter in top. Flayn just has a more diverse spell list utility, and even has a good offensive kit too.

Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013


Zofia Today
Alm: Human Disaster


Lipstick Apathy

Is it the fish? I'd say it's definitely the fish helping her to keep her list so strong.

Rimusutera
Oct 17, 2014


Wark Say posted:

Is it the fish? I'd say it's definitely the fish helping her to keep her list so strong.

Pleasant Girl With Rescue Access Has Powerful Fish Based Diet to Enable LTC Strats, Click Now! Healbots Hate Her

sharrrk
Feb 13, 2012

It's time to party!


Rimusutera posted:

I mean everybody kinda good its 3 Houses blah blah blah, but we're in a context of discussing if you'd want to take Flayn or Mercedes in a deployment slot and people frequently overrate the latter and here's why; healing is incredibly redundant in 3 Houses, basically every mage has access to their faith list to start with through the simple trick of the tutoring system, making a unit whose just a key healer or judged as such somewhat actually a drawback. Mercedes doesn't add a lot of proactive stuff to your team kit, which is actually bad. She kinda does get Waning Shot which never gets talked about but isn't the greatest.

There's a similar dynamic here to the Clerics = Healer meme with D&D. Clerics in that game actually have a lot of stuff that prevents damage outright or enables fast kills on monsters yet they're often pidgenholded as the 'healer'. Sure, poping a Cure Wounds now and again is necessary but if you can help prevent damage by making a monster or that evil necromancer unable to damage you at all, because they're dead, you don't have to do that. Its similar in 3 Houses where alot the best things in the meta assessment of the game are proactive strategies that let you make active decisions on controlling the map. A lot of the movement utility stuff in general fits here, along side efficient ways to kill enemies, mooks and bosses alike, that in particular nullify counter attacks (ie brave effect combat arts like Swift Strikes)

In this vein physic is overrated. Its good and nice to have but not the make or break of a magic character like its being implied to be by saying it makes a character with it better than a character with Rescue. In a similar vein Restore gets overlooked a lot despite helping you nullify tons of status effects enmasse. Thats a way less prevalent ability in the spell lists than just "restore some number of hit points" and doesn't get mentioned nearly enough.

As to Rescue being only good when you "LTC the map" or whatever, is a misrepresentation of what makes it good. It gives you control over movement and position over the map which taken to its extreme can and does enable LTC stuff but not just that. You can use Rescue to cheese tougher enemy formations by picking a key unit off over a particular turn for example, even in ways that don't 'save you turns' or whatever but do enable you to trivialize the map. Its so much more impactful of a unique ability than more redundant healing.

If you forced me to tier list the 3 Houses playable units I'd first off make separate tier lists for each route but on each of the ones you can have both Mercedes and Flayn I'd rank the former kinda mid tier and the latter in top. Flayn just has a more diverse spell list utility, and even has a good offensive kit too.

Yeah but shes gay

hopeandjoy
Nov 28, 2014





sharrrk posted:

Yeah but shes gay

Looper
Mar 1, 2012




Rimusutera posted:

Pleasant Girl With Rescue Access Has Powerful Fish Based Diet to Enable LTC Strats, Click Now! Healbots Hate Her

I'm clicking and nothing is happening!

Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013


Zofia Today
Alm: Human Disaster


Lipstick Apathy

sharrrk posted:

Yeah but shes gay
That's like 90% of the student cast and a good amount of the teachers as well.

sharrrk
Feb 13, 2012

It's time to party!


and theyre all precious

Rimusutera
Oct 17, 2014


Some are just better killing machines than others.

Eimi
Nov 23, 2013





Future Fire Emblems need to follow their example by making even more of the cast gay.

Zore
Sep 21, 2010




Eimi posted:

Future Fire Emblems need to follow their example by making even more of the cast gay.

I mean they get real close in 3 Houses.

The only people I can even think of who aren't at least a little gay are like Hanneman, Flayn, Seteth and Ingrid? Pretty much everyone else has an explicit or implicit gay support chain.

Rimusutera
Oct 17, 2014


All the best units should be gay, so I never again have to ever be torn between love of gay representation and tryhard optimal strategies.

Hellioning
Jun 27, 2008



Just make everyone bi.

All problems are solved.

Eimi
Nov 23, 2013





Hellioning posted:

Just make everyone bi.

All problems are solved.

While I'd like for there to be actually just gay characters I recognize in the age of avatars and shipping this will never happen (while there will be straight characters) so yes everyone bi, and then fanon decides their sexuality.

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

rattle rattle





College Slice

I'd bump Mercedes up not because of physic (though physic is always good) but because of fortify. Fortify can allow all your other magic users, who would otherwise be doing important healing, to do other things. In that was it's sort of like a niche version of dance: it allows other units to perform their second-most important action without sacrificing the most important one, because Mercedes handled it for them without sacrificing her own important action

Obviously Flayn has it too (and it's very good on her as well) so it's not relevant to which of them is better, but it is relevant to Mercedes' overall rating

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!


Fortify fucks up Vantage and Vengeance shenanigans

Rimusutera
Oct 17, 2014


Being serious for a sec I'm very much not a fan of the "everyone is bisexual" route so if we're talking ideal situations I'd prefer if thats not the future approach, age of avatars or not. Its nice have just explicitly gay characters in games still and in particularly its important to not exclusively portray sapphic women who are technically available for men to seduce. Gender/Sexuality rep discorse aside:


cheetah7071 posted:

I'd bump Mercedes up not because of physic (though physic is always good) but because of fortify. Fortify can allow all your other magic users, who would otherwise be doing important healing, to do other things. In that was it's sort of like a niche version of dance: it allows other units to perform their second-most important action without sacrificing the most important one, because Mercedes handled it for them without sacrificing her own important action

Obviously Flayn has it too (and it's very good on her as well) so it's not relevant to which of them is better, but it is relevant to Mercedes' overall rating

I think Fortify still has some drawbacks that get overlooked, namely that it can be difficult to use without turning off HP proc builds in a way pointed healing doesn't and some of those can actually be decent. Edit: Zoran sniped me with it, but Vengeance is one such strat. Otherwise the earlier point about a bunch of optimal strategies minimizing the need for healing in the first place, like trying to kill enemies in ways that prevent counter attacks, stands as why at this point I don't think Fortify is a tier bumping spell either. As the game progresses and things like Fortify come online you're also accumulating stuff like Hunters Volley, Fierce Iron Fist and Swift Strikes on your best combat units and bulking up the defense on physical tanks. The need for mass heal increasingly goes down, while early physic access can in fact still be pretty impactful as a tool in something like early game Maddening and clutch as it progresses while not being as game defining as I think other people rate it.

Rimusutera fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Oct 15, 2020

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Eimi
Nov 23, 2013





Rimusutera posted:

Being serious for a sec I'm very much not a fan of the "everyone is bisexual" route so if we're talking ideal situations I'd prefer if thats not the future approach, age of avatars or not. Its nice have just explicitly gay characters in games still and in particularly its important to not exclusively portray sapphic women who are technically available for men to seduce. Gender/Sexuality rep discorse aside:

I mean I'm a gay woman myself, and I'm coming at it from the angle of like, when was the last exclusively gay woman? Heather? Like I view Edelgard as gay given how she acts, even if the game casts her as bi.

Also there's the problem of your fav not being available to romance, or them doing something Dragon Age did and making only one character the lesbian and one the gay and oops it's Serra.

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