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Rimusutera
Oct 17, 2014


I mean I'm speaking for myself and my own thoughts and preferences for like, seeing actually good fleshed out representation. I know to lower my expectations because its IS, but like I stand by what my ideal desires are here.

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Hellioning
Jun 27, 2008



All I know is that they were allowed to choose which characters were gay and which ones were straight and they made bad choices. If everyone is bi they cannot continue to make bad choices.

Eimi
Nov 23, 2013





Hellioning posted:

All I know is that they were allowed to choose which characters were gay and which ones were straight and they made bad choices. If everyone is bi they cannot continue to make bad choices.

If everyone is bi I can pretend I got my ideal Fire Emblem where almost everyone is gay and there's like two token straights.

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!


If you’re aiming for representation, it seems odd to me to go with the “everyone is bi” approach. It’s more like a power fantasy—everyone is interested in me personally, and there are never any incompatibilities—than an attempt to depict different kinds of sexuality.

I mean all video game player character romances are just power fantasies anyway so I don’t know if it actually matters

Rimusutera
Oct 17, 2014


The key to this is realizing the "player character can romance everything" thing is bad and should be scaled back as well. I share the cynicism that as long as it continues it'll poison the well but I can dream of a better Fire Emblem narrative.

Hellioning
Jun 27, 2008



Exactly. Straight people get that power fantasy anyway, the only people of the opposite sex you can't get with since Awakening have been the avatar's children, so why not also give it to gay people?

Eimi
Nov 23, 2013





Hellioning posted:

Exactly. Straight people get that power fantasy anyway, the only people of the opposite sex you can't get with since Awakening have been the avatar's children, so why not also give it to gay people?

This. And when games do to try to be representative, the straights still get more options, see Bioware. It does occasionally have a good character come of it like Dorian, but in a game where a large appeal is shipping people together, your avatar included, just let me ship who I want.

Rimusutera
Oct 17, 2014


Because I'd rather have a better game over all.

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

rattle rattle





College Slice

I feel like there's two mutually incompatible things going on here. A desire for representation, and a desire for player-controlled shipping. Well, they're not completely incompatible but ideally player-controlled shipping gives lots of same-sex and hetero options which tends to lead to everyone being bi because that's the easiest way to resolve it.

I feel like I've definitely seen both the opinions "I want everyone to be bi so I don't have to be annoyed that the character I like isn't attracted to my gender in my escapist fantasy" and "I want thoughtful, meaningful representation and everyone being bi gets in the way of that (for representing sexualities other than bi)". Usually not from the same people. I think it's one of those things where no single piece of media is going to please everyone and games aren't ever going to find the "best" solution and settle on that forever.

Zore
Sep 21, 2010




Rimusutera posted:

The key to this is realizing the "player character can romance everything" thing is bad and should be scaled back as well. I share the cynicism that as long as it continues it'll poison the well but I can dream of a better Fire Emblem narrative.

The answer to this is 'remove the player character' or 'open it up to everyone' because artificially limiting it so every straight romance is available and only a fraction of the gay ones is a horrible compromise position.

Rimusutera
Oct 17, 2014


Zore posted:

The answer to this is 'remove the player character' or 'open it up to everyone' because artificially limiting it so every straight romance is available and only a fraction of the gay ones is a horrible compromise position.

I think there's a possibility for a world in which not every straight character is available to the player character either.

Hellioning
Jun 27, 2008



In theory, yes. But I think it's more plausible for them to stop avatars than it is for them to just have some characters not be able to date the avatars.

And, honestly, I think just making everyone bi is more plausible than either of those things.

Rimusutera
Oct 17, 2014


Three Houses already has some characters who don't date the avatar. They could like, actually just do more of that.

Eimi
Nov 23, 2013





Rimusutera posted:

Three Houses already has some characters who don't date the avatar. They could like, actually just do more of that.

What characters won't date an avatar of the opposite gender? Or is it they only don't want to date when it's the same gender as the avatar?

Terper
Jun 26, 2012




Yeah, Petra for example can hook up with Dorothea but doesn't like Byleth in that way.

Rimusutera
Oct 17, 2014


You don't have a romantic ending with either Alois or Gilbert regardless of gender.

hopeandjoy
Nov 28, 2014





Solution: remake Tellius without adding an avatar.

(And adding the Tibarn/Reyson, Kieran/Oscar, Elincia/Lucia, Jill/Lethe, etc. paired endings we were so cruelly denied. )

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

rattle rattle





College Slice

In theory, 3h S ranks don't mean marriage or even romance, just "this is the defining relationship in Byleth's life". They didn't really do very much with that though.

Hellioning
Jun 27, 2008



Exactly two S ranks are like that and S ranks in previous games have always meant marriage.

So it's kinda weird that they decided to change it in Three Houses for exactly two supports.

Rimusutera
Oct 17, 2014


Weird and only two but its good they did and I'd rather they do more of that? That's like my whole point here. 3 Houses has some elements of the better nuanced character relationships stuff instead of "shipping simulation" like Fates/Awakening and the next game should lean more into that.

Zore
Sep 21, 2010




Eimi posted:

What characters won't date an avatar of the opposite gender? Or is it they only don't want to date when it's the same gender as the avatar?

Alois and Gilbert are it AFAIK. Alois is happily married and Gilbert is... Gilbert.

There's also a shockingly high number of character who have S rank supports that don't end in any romantic relationship which is interesting. You have the normal familial ones like Flayn/Seteth but also stuff like Flayn/Raphael or most of Sylvain's supports end up eschewing romance entirely at S rank

Zore fucked around with this message at 20:16 on Oct 15, 2020

Eimi
Nov 23, 2013





Zore posted:

Alois and Gilbert are it AFAIK. Alois is happily married and Gilbert is... Gilbert.

There's also a shockingly high number of character who have S rank supports that don't end in any romantic relationship which is interesting. You have the normal familial ones like Flayn/Seteth but also stuff like Flayn/Raphael or most of Sylvain's supports end up eschewing romance entirely at S rank

And they have S supports, which is weird. While femByleth can't even get Just Friended by Petra.

Hellioning posted:

Exactly two S ranks are like that and S ranks in previous games have always meant marriage.

So it's kinda weird that they decided to change it in Three Houses for exactly two supports.

Did anyone even like that change? To my understanding it was not well received given that Alois and Gilbert were gay fakeout options, and Lin was the only gay option at the game's start.

Rimusutera
Oct 17, 2014


Eimi posted:

Did anyone even like that change? To my understanding it was not well received given that Alois and Gilbert were gay fakeout options, and Lin was the only gay option at the game's start.

I'm literally right here.

Yes some lots of people felt faked out and the point that Three Houses has sparse gay pairings but lots of straight pairings for the 'Leths stands but I think its good they didn't make every pairing romantic and shows it is in fact possible for them to write a game with some romantic pairing stuff thats not Awakening/Fates.

SyntheticPolygon
Dec 20, 2013



S ranks were a mistake.

Hellioning
Jun 27, 2008



S ranks for only Byleth were a mistake. Either let me make my pairings or don't give me shipping powers at all IS.

Eimi
Nov 23, 2013





Hellioning posted:

S ranks for only Byleth were a mistake. Either let me make my pairings or don't give me shipping powers at all IS.

Yeah having to avoid taking A ranks on anyone I don't want paired up til the end of the game is obnoxious.

Also please do keep giving me shipping powers cause shipping is a huge part of the appeal of the game to me and why I love it so much.

The Shame Boy
Jan 27, 2014

Dead weight, just like this post.




I just want a strong,loving S rank relationship like Pent and Loiuse have

Eimi
Nov 23, 2013





Also losing unit S ranks meant 50% of the A ranks turned romantic which was kinda lame. Leave that to S ranks.

Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013


Zofia Today
Alm: Human Disaster


Lipstick Apathy

No avatar would be a good start. I know Robin, Corrin and Byleth are popular, but I'm perfectly happy to see them sacrificed for the sake of a (slightly) better plot and/or character moments.

SyntheticPolygon
Dec 20, 2013



The player Avatar was also a mistake and it would be a really good idea if they get rid of them in the future.

Amppelix
Aug 6, 2010



Eimi posted:

Yeah having to avoid taking A ranks on anyone I don't want paired up til the end of the game is obnoxious.
did you get the DLC? they kinda fixed this bit with the fortune teller, where you can unambiguously see which pairings are in the lead and just buy support points with renown in addition to allowing you to lock in the one specific pairing.

Zore
Sep 21, 2010




Amppelix posted:

did you get the DLC? they kinda fixed this bit with the fortune teller, where you can unambiguously see which pairings are in the lead and just buy support points with renown in addition to allowing you to lock in the one specific pairing.

It is super lovely for companies to lock stuff like that behind DLC.

Eimi
Nov 23, 2013





Amppelix posted:

did you get the DLC? they kinda fixed this bit with the fortune teller, where you can unambiguously see which pairings are in the lead and just buy support points with renown in addition to allowing you to lock in the one specific pairing.

It's not that, it's that if both pairings are capped it's entirely random who gets chosen, unless there is an a+ rank in which case that wins.

SyntheticPolygon
Dec 20, 2013



Game should've just had an A+ rank with no conversation or anything that locks that relationship in for the ending.

But even though it's messy and dumb I do enjoy the way Three Houses does supports significantly more than Awakening and Fates.

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

rattle rattle





College Slice

Eimi posted:

It's not that, it's that if both pairings are capped it's entirely random who gets chosen, unless there is an a+ rank in which case that wins.

Are you sure? I was pretty sure it was based on which pair gained more support points after attaining A rank

Amppelix
Aug 6, 2010



that's true but there's an invisible cap beyond that (where S rank would be if they were implemented for everyone) where you stop gaining further points

i didn't think about that but yeah that sucks.

Rimusutera
Oct 17, 2014


Tie breaks are determined by unit order in the big over list or something.

I'm both in favour of Avatar characters but just... done better, and no avatar at all particularly given how much I enjoy Echoes for its lack of such.

Adjunct Professor Metis
Aug 1, 2014





I do think it would've been nice if there were more characters who were interested in same sex Byleth but not opposite Byleth. Say Linhardt, for example.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009

I may not be as cute as the other girls, but I'm the best at arm wrestling!


imo 'everyone is bi' is 10x more homophobic than 'everyone is straight' but i have unprocessed trauma from dragon age 2

edit: also i think the lack of non-byleth s ranks was to allow more ambiguity which in turns allows for more gay stuff but it mostly led to people 100% convinced that nobody but byleth can be gay even though stuff like dorothea/edelgard is super explicit. ive seen multiple thinkpieces about how those two can flirt but CANNOT get together, lol. s ranks were a mistake in the first place because they've completely broken peoples brains when it comes to what content is/isn't available.

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SyntheticPolygon
Dec 20, 2013



I feel like player avatar's broke brains more. It was way more of an issue earlier around Three Houses release but the fact that conversations about gay characters in the game is still mostly centered around Byleth's relationships is so goddamn lame.

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