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Retcon
Jun 23, 2010


Endorph posted:

With how many characters are in FE games, it's impossible to put development for all of them in the main story. Some FE games manage giving the characters besides the main lord(s) relevance in main story dialogue better than others, but still. FE9 is probably the ideal for that, and there's still people like Makalov who wouldnt even exist if supports didn't. I don't think there's anything wrong with putting character development in supports. Over relying on them is a problem, but three houses isn't at all an example of that imo.

edit: and fe10 absolutely needs supports. the fact is every fe game does, at this point. it doesn't need every character to have 20 or anything but name a personality trait of leonardo's. go ahead.
Is 'keeps disappointing me' a personality trait

I actually looked at the script and the only thing I found is that he's.. slightly more responsible and grounded when compared to Edward. Also he's a bit self-deprecating but not that much. Radiant Dawn was not a good game to be a newcomer unless you had a lot of story focus like Pelleas. And he still would have benefited a lot from having supports - you could even tie in the reveal that he's just some random orphan Izuka picked out with time-gated supports like in FE9.

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MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



Tired Moritz posted:

Which are the bad 3Houses supports

All of them when you have to endure of them 5 in a row or be less effective in your next mission. It turns what should be enjoyable character moments into a chore. As someone already mentioned C-supports especially have it real bad since they're all so overlapping.

Like Clockwork
Feb 17, 2012

It's only the Final Battle once all the players are ready.



I will say that while base conversations would probably help supplant the C support issue if used right, given the sheer size of even a small FE's cast (Sacred Stones had over 30 playable characters iirc) I doubt it would ever really function as a replacement for supports without massively changing the scale of the game in a way I doubt IntSys would do (or possibly even "is able to do", feh whaling money won't stick around forever).

Like, Ilyanas will still exist even in a game with supports just due to the nature of having to write that many characters, but at least supports make it so that over half the cast isn't the Dawn Brigade. The writing will exist and live and die on existing rather than, like, looking at Aran and being like "well I guess you theoretically have a character trait implied somewhere".

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012




The main issue I have with supports is the same one I have with party member social links in Persona games: character development that happens during them can't really be reflected in the main story, and it either creates an odd disconnect or leads to characters being mostly paper cutouts during main story scenes to avoid conflicting with what you might see in their supports.

I'm not really sure what the solution is. I enjoyed 3H's supports quite a bit, even while playing through the game multiple times. I wouldn't want to cut back on them or get rid of them. Maybe a game with just one route could have the main story be more reactive to supports? I dunno.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!


Like Clockwork posted:

Like, Ilyanas will still exist even in a game with supports just due to the nature of having to write that many characters
Ilyana is a way better character than people give her credit for just because of her boss conversations with Micaiah. Which I guess is another thing, more incidental dialogue outside of supports.Three Houses has a lot of that due to the monastery's structure but still.

Scrap Dragon
Oct 6, 2013

SECRET TECHNIQUE:
DARK SHADOW
BLACK FALLEN ANGEL!




I don’t think we’d be likely to get any of the cut supports from a PoR rerelease because I just don’t see them adding new content outside of a full remake. That said, as someone playing through that game in 2021 all they’d need to do to make it palatable to modern audiences is add the fast forward/rewind functions from the Shadow Dragon rerelease.

Also, BEXP is such a good mechanic holy poo poo. It’s absolutely criminal that this feature didn’t become a series mainstay

Deltasquid
Apr 10, 2013

awww...
you guys made me ink!


THUNDERDOME


Lock more supports behind story events...? They're halfway there with the A-ranks in 3 Houses, might as well just lock all of them so the characters can reference events from the main story. My favourite supports are the ones like Ashe and Catherine, with them both getting to grips with story events and the events leading up to them

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



I feel like FE-developers would get a lot of lee-way if they just stopped accounting for permadeath entirely. Go full Advance Wars.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!


i mean three houses basically doesnt already, both plot-wise and even gameplay-wise. can you imagine an average player who recruited maybe one or two other students playing on classic with a mindset of accepting deaths that happen? theyd be completely boned by halfway through part 2.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



Endorph posted:

i mean three houses basically doesnt already, both plot-wise and even gameplay-wise. can you imagine an average player who recruited maybe one or two other students playing on classic with a mindset of accepting deaths that happen? theyd be completely boned by halfway through part 2.

I can do you one further, imagine playing on maddening while accepting deaths.

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012




Divine Pulse is basically the only way to make Classic work with a system like Three Houses, especially with Maddening.

I still play on Classic because I enjoy the added challenge of "literally anyone dies" being an extra lose condition on any map, but the games definitely are not designed for "iron man" runs anymore and haven't been for a while.

Rimusutera
Oct 17, 2014


Aran does have character traits, there's enough implied to deduce from his conversations in recruitment and with Laura initially etc. Little character development, which is what the Dawn Brigade suffer from, is not the same as no characterization at all. We don't need to be hit over the head repeatedly with a character trait for it to be apparent.

I think there's attachment to Support conversations because they've been grandfathered in, as what's seen, as an essential method of character development in the series, and it has its high points sure. However it has limitations as a story telling/character development method. They're detached from the context in which the experiments with the Love system in Genealogy and Kaga's gameplay and story integration and how those kinda worked, to begin with: The GBA system had the absurdity of random conversations happening on tight battlefields, where as the gaps between action and the exploratory element of how FE4 worked allowed some suspension of disbelief around some of the characters actions. It was a bit rough around the edges but it never feels like the GBA support conversations are actually building naturally off this.

Three Houses to its credit fixes one issue with this in that its actual support conversations are between the action segments and can more naturally fit a lot of different conversations and sides to characters but it suffers still from the main issues with supports, that they're detached from the main story, that they're superfluous. It has to resort to heavy timelocking of supports in order to try and get around this, but can still end up disconnected and off based on player timing.

Base convo's are actually the high point of sidecharacter development in Fire Emblem, far and above what support convos alone manage to accomplish as a system. It gives you the opportunity for real moments of natural reaction to the main action of the story that can be optional and not hindered by holding to permadeath. This is the essence of character writing and story telling, a natural process of action and reaction within a contained point A) to B) narrative. Support convos have to be detached from this effective story telling to exist as they do and a lot of their problems are natural logical conclusions of their limitations, rather than flukes.

Rimusutera fucked around with this message at 17:20 on Mar 5, 2021

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



Sacred Stones was the last game I even tried ironmanning. It has a nice balance between feeding you characters who can hold their own water from the get-go and babies who need to protected to ascend to godhood.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!


Rimusutera posted:

it suffers still from the main issues with supports, that they're detached from the main story, that they're superfluous.
read lysithea/edelgard and say this again.

and, iunno. does it have to be one or the other? why do supports need to go away or be reduced? its an incredibly useful system for characterization and development, that much is absolutely undeniable. some of the series best moments are the results of supports. they can just be one of the many tools the series uses. base conversations are cool, but they couldn't replace supports, as fe10 shows.

edit: also why are you crediting three houses with fixing the 'conversations on the battlefield' thing when literally every fe game from 9 onwards has them take place off the battlefield.

Endorph fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Mar 5, 2021

Rimusutera
Oct 17, 2014


Endorph posted:

read lysithea/edelgard and say this again.

this is still the problem I'm talking about, their conversation is superfluous to and abstracted from the actual narrative plot. its just minor windowdressing that's technically related to Edlegard's political motivations but its not effectively tied to a real concrete moment in the narrative. 3 Houses suffers from this a lot, its lots of very musing like conversations about the games supposed themes that are treated as technically unnecessary to the central story by the support system.


Endorph posted:

edit: also why are you crediting three houses with fixing the 'conversations on the battlefield' thing when literally every fe game from 9 onwards has them take place off the battlefield.

My point was poorly phrased because I was stuck on mentally comparing the GBA era to 3Houses, but yes AwakeningFates and even PoR etc all have off battle support conversations but those still suffer from the other side of support's issues that I'm talking about. There's a difference between falsely giving credit for creating something, what you're reading me as trying to say, and saying something should be credited for having something in it which is what I was intending to say.

FE10 doesn't show that base convo's can't replace supports, its main issue is it does little for some of its cast like the Dawn Brigade relative to others like the Griel Mercenaries. Base convo's are still a better vehicle for a wider range of character moments and dialogue than supports are.

Hellioning
Jun 27, 2008



Alternatively, we can have both.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!


yeah i dont understand why there's a need to qualify one as better than the other when a mix of both is obviously ideal. base conversations have limitations too: you can't make 20 base conversations for every chapter because that would be insane, they might relate to characters the player isn't using and has no interest in, and they still can't actually progress the plot because they're technically optional so while development based on story progression can be in them you can't then reference that development in the main plot, which is the same issue supports have.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!


like if you create a base conversation with important plot development and character development that is referenced in the main plot going forward, what you've actually created is a major plot cutscene that the game has made slightly easier to skip.

Rimusutera
Oct 17, 2014


Endorph posted:

yeah i dont understand why there's a need to qualify one as better than the other when a mix of both is obviously ideal.

I'm arguing one is better than the other because I think its better, and if I had to pick one system I'd choose the better one. what is not to get about this?

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!


i dont understand where the 'if i had to pick one system' part of this conversation came from. that isnt me being rude i genuinely dont understand why you started talking on that axis.

Rimusutera
Oct 17, 2014


because you're asking me why there's a "need to qualify things as better" as a rhetorical point, I'm just stating my opinion about the support convos versus base system??? what is so hard to get about this???

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!


why are you being a dick dude? i just didnt get it because people were talking about supports and you burst in with 'we should have base convos instead of supports' like people were talking about having supports instead of base convos. there's no need to be an aggro jackass or treat me like im stupid, i just wanted to understand where you were coming from.

conversations about fire emblem on the internet are not a thing you 'win' or 'lose'. i am a person who likes fire emblem and wants to talk to you about fire emblem because we both like fire emblem. im begging you to chill out for a second because you do this constantly and its exhausting, unpleasant, and genuinely makes me want to stop posting in this thread.

Rimusutera
Oct 17, 2014


I stated a general opinion about supports versus base conversations because the flow of conversation was about the need to bring supports back into certain remakes. its relevant to the conversation people are having about the game's with or without supports.

multiple things you're saying in the most recent flow of the conversation come off more as intentionally being dismissive, not interested in what I'm saying and I'm loosing patience with it and don't really buy that this is you genuinely trying to engage with the things I was saying.

dmboogie
Oct 4, 2013



Rimusutera posted:

multiple things you're saying in the most recent flow of the conversation come off more as intentionally being dismissive, not interested in what I'm saying and I'm loosing patience with it and don't really buy that this is you genuinely trying to engage with the things I was saying.

jesus christ man

anyways the weirdest thing about three houses supports was the time gaps between B and A resulting in annette and meredes having a fight and then not talking to each other for five years

blackmongoose
Mar 31, 2011

DARK INFERNO ROOK!


Endorph and Rimusutera attained Support Level C!

Amppelix
Aug 6, 2010



let me just confirm that you are coming off like a dick right now

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!


FIRE EMBLEM

YOUR SPIRIT SHALL SHINE

ACROSS THE GENERATIONS

NOW, AND FOR ALL TIME

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!


dmboogie posted:

jesus christ man

anyways the weirdest thing about three houses supports was the time gaps between B and A resulting in annette and meredes having a fight and then not talking to each other for five years

frankly that sounds extremely accurate to high school/college bi's so i applaud three houses on this representation

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



dmboogie posted:

anyways the weirdest thing about three houses supports was the time gaps between B and A resulting in annette and meredes having a fight and then not talking to each other for five years

Weird but strangely realistic.

Tae
Oct 24, 2010

Hello? Can you hear me? ...Perhaps if I shout? AAAAAAAAAH!


gently caress, is loose just forever slang'ed in as lose

I hate this

Eimi
Nov 23, 2013




Look removing supports would stop me from pairing off people and forming ships and that's unacceptable.

Okay it wouldn't stop me but the game wouldn't represent my choices anymore.

Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013

WELCOME TO THE DUNGEON

I just want more instances of (one of) the childhood friend(s) saying to the Lord "Hey! You don't know what you're up against here!".

Sure I don't, Tobin.

golden bubble
Jun 3, 2011

yospos



3 Houses finally had some supports locked behind plot developments, which allows the supports to reference the main plot. But it doesn't go far enough with it. Too few support chains are locked this way, and some of the ones that are locked this way make no sense. I'm looking at you Leonie.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009
Probation
Can't post for 6 hours!


leonie is a super awkward character in general. her whole personality is built around an npc she gets to interact with once, in one passing conversation. if jeralt was playable and they had supports thatd help her a lot, but you could also just have them hanging out a lot in the monastery.

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Rimusutera
Oct 17, 2014


Really my ideal system would really just be rolling what we see as supports into a base convo system, that can be less time sensitive, easy peasy. Keep support rank progression and stuff it unlocks as part of the game such as paired endings, but not have things that are so unmoored and detached from the main plot progress. You might unlock additional base convos that are a little expository or less times sensitive or off topic from the main narrative flow, but character progression and backstory for the cast isn't left in solely in this weird limbo state and can also happen primarily as parts of base convos that are more rooted in the natural action / reaction flow of the main narrative.

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