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WrightOfWay
Jul 24, 2010




I don't think it's (just) comparisons to the Greil Mercs that make the Dawn Brigade look bad. It's comparisons to their own Part 3 maps. Zihark can't reliably dodge tank against Laguz, even with double Earth support, and has trouble killing tigers. Sothe has good offense with the Beastkiller but is made of tissue paper. Edward requires a ton of effort to be basically Zihark, with all the same problems. Aran is just barely fast enough to avoid getting doubled and wrecked by tigers on average, so if he falls below those averages he's basically useless. Leonardo requires a ton of effort to be basically Micaiah without healing. It's no wonder Nolan stands out with his passable bulk and ability to OHKO things with Beastfoe Tarvos. I do think Nolan is pretty overrated, though, and maybe that's partially because he is one of 3 (maybe 4, Tauroneo is surprisingly decent as a filler unit if you give him a Master Crown) DB units that are good in Part 4 and people thinking that Reaver's caps matter a lot more than they actually do.

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cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010


College Slice

Well I mean, even in like FE8, which is definitely quantity over quality, in the early game Rebecca and Wil are really struggling to do more than chip and basically have to be fed kills to keep up with xp. Once they have some levels down and promotions and whatnot, you're starting to get to the point where the enemy have random higher-danger targets mixed in. Like random heroes and druids and whatnot that are kind of scary to enemy phase. It makes player phase a bit more valuable. Theoretically this would make archers fine, but on the other hand the stats are so messed up that Rebecca isn't even any better at handling these enemies than units who can actually enemy phase. But at least a player phase only unit can snipe the one enemy in the formation that really wants to be player phased and leave the rest to the rest of your army. It's something, at least.

Last Celebration
Mar 30, 2010


cheetah7071 posted:

From my last playthrough, comparing a fairly mediocre unit to one of the truly dire ones

I kinda always suspected that so many of New Mystery’s unit balance jank is because they just ran out of time to properly check if everyone’s stats made sense in the context of being in the same game as Palla/Catria/Kris. Like for instance, Yubello’s bases/growths are pretty close to his SFC ones iirc...where most mages had a 20% magic growth and worse bases, so he made sense as a growth character compared to now where he’s not even better than anyone else cause their bases are better. At least, that’s what I remember from checking and comparing.

Strange Matter
Oct 5, 2009

Ask me about Genocide


Scrap Dragon posted:

I’ve changed my mind and now think that PoR needs a remake, if only to get rid of this asinine 5 support limit. It’s not the first game I’ve played that’s had this limit but it’s the first game where it’s actually mattered because PoR actually has a reasonable rate of unlocking supports compared to the GBA games.

Also, there just needs to be more supports in general cause some of these character’s support lists are so bad. Like Nephenee only supports three characters and two of them are either literally the same type of unit or close enough (and most likely worse than she is) so you’re not likely to use both Neph and one of them and the last is an (admittedly cool) lategame prepromote. So Neph basically doesn’t have any supports until the rear end end of the game, and that’s only if you can make space on your team for Calil
In POR's defense, there were a TON more supports planned that never made it into the game, including some really fun sounding ones like Mia/Nephenee and Marcia/Mia, Shinon/Calil and Haar/Sothe.

https://fireemblemwiki.org/wiki/Unused_content_in_Fire_Emblem:_Path_of_Radiance#Unused_supports

ROFL Octopus
Jun 20, 2014

LET ME EXPLAIN



Amppelix posted:

on a more positive note about this playthrough, i've been using Leonardo. and when i say using, i don't mean babying and rigging all his levels and feeding him every possible kill and all my BEXP and stat boosters (i'm doing that with meg because she is my baby), just like doing normal archer things with him, weakening enemies for other people and occasionally finishing a dude off. and to my massive surprise, he's been a completely fine unit! not hugely powerful by any means but like, he hasn't fallen behind the curve in levels or stats and he's been contributing a decent amount every chapter.

leo was always one of those units i used to instantly dismiss because i looked at their growths and they didn't have sexy big numbers in strength or speed, but in his case i've also always seen him grouped with the terrible RD unit crew of meg, fiona, lyre etc by lots of other people too so i've never had any reason to give him a second look. now that i am doing that, and on the hardest difficulty no less... you really don't have to go out of your way to try to get something out of him at all! he carries his own weight no problem as long as you aren't like, intentionally neglecting him and only letting him get a couple shots off per chapter like i used to do.

now that i think about it, this revelation has to be partly because archers are always better on harder difficulty modes in this series, when you can't rely on your power units facetanking the entire map on enemy phase and actually need the safe and accurate chip damage they provide. still, leonardo clearly doesn't deserve all the bullying he gets.

I remember him having weird utility in Part 3 with his unique combo of being able to use Beastfoe and not having an enemy phase so there’s little risk of him being plastered by infinite tigers.

Idk, the fact that he has a bunch of unorthodox pros makes him a pretty cool unit.

Tae
Oct 24, 2010

Hello? Can you hear me? ...Perhaps if I shout? AAAAAAAAAH!


I never understood how people got enough exp for Edward/Leo/Meg, I feel like I'm struggling on Normal just to get Nolan and like Jill up to date.

Dr Pepper
Feb 4, 2012

Don't like it? well...



galagazombie posted:

I have a theory that the half of Three Houses taking place after everyone is grown up and edgy was originally supposed to be more of a twist, but after how badly received the original reveal trailer was ("Anime High School!" "Persona rip-off!" "Terrible Graphics!" "Cast of Children!" "3DS quality animations!" they had to rethink their ad campaign. Thus after a whole ad campaign and press schedule solely about the Academy Phase, out of nowhere we get a big reveal trailer where Otome dating sim dude is a bloodthirsty maniac with an eyepatch and the cute schoolgirl is dressed like Hardin and talking about how sacrifices must be made for the greater good like a supervillian. And now everyones an adult and all grizzled and hardcore. And it worked. Overnight the internet went from being lukewarm to being hyped as hell. Everyone wanted to see what made the anime pretty boy start screaming "Kill every last one of them!" and why was the girl who all the ads had been making look like the main character suddenly dressing like the platonic FE villain. It was like a plot twist in the Ad campaign itself.

Literally everyone called it as happening 10 seconds after the game was revealed. Nintendo had the right idea just not even bothering to hide it.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


Strange Matter posted:

In POR's defense, there were a TON more supports planned that never made it into the game, including some really fun sounding ones like Mia/Nephenee and Marcia/Mia, Shinon/Calil and Haar/Sothe.

https://fireemblemwiki.org/wiki/Unused_content_in_Fire_Emblem:_Path_of_Radiance#Unused_supports
fe9 in general has a ton of content on the cutting room floor. There were meant to be Goldoa and Kilvas arcs, too. And while you see a bit of Goldoa in FE10, Kilvas (and Phoenicis) are still way offscreen in it, so they feel a bit strange.

Amppelix
Aug 6, 2010



Tae posted:

I never understood how people got enough exp for Edward/Leo/Meg, I feel like I'm struggling on Normal just to get Nolan and like Jill up to date.
I am cheating a bit by having a transferred jill with at least speed and defence capped, but i really don't feel stretched thin at all.

Like, sure, nolan isn't going to be turning into an enemy phase housecleaner any time soon because I'm not feeding all my exp into him but hey. You don't actually need to have more units like that. The game gives you plenty of ways to clear chapters without going for the ol "I'm just going to toss my strong guy in this group of enemies and they'll probably all die"

Strange Matter
Oct 5, 2009

Ask me about Genocide


On a first playthrough, no way. But even on Normal mode (Japanese Hard), it's totally possible to have a very decent Dawn Brigade if you just knuckle down and squeeze out every drop of EXP. For instance, it's almost always better in Part 1 to ignore BEXP in favor of actual combat EXP, at least in the early missions, because the BEXP you get for those chapters are pretty marginal compared with the benefit of taking out actual enemies, and it gives you the freedom to grab Hidden Items, which is really useful since almost all of the games good Hidden items are in Part 1. You get something like 4 Master Seals and 3 Arms Scrolls that way.

Last time I played Radiant Dawn I got Nolan, Edward, Aran, Jill and Leo to Tier 2 by the time I reached the Part 1 Endgame that way. It's not necessarily the most fun way to play, but it's absolutely doable. That was also the run where I was actually able to kill defeat Ike in 3-13.

You can substitute Aran and Leo for Meg if you really wanted to, which is what I did the first time through. Which was cool becuase Meg's Tier 3 form looks like a Gundam. It's just that she's still The Worst Knight out of all your choices, and Knights aren't great Endgame Material even at their best.

TriffTshngo
Mar 28, 2010

DANTE IS NOT


I played RD back when I was still very much a "I love these low base/high growth babies and I will carry them with me to the end" style player and even on JP Normal I was like "wow holy poo poo I cannot ditch the Dawn Brigade fast enough." The only two I stubbornly kept with me were Nolan, who was more or less equally as good as Boyd, and Edward, who I apparently got pretty lucky with. If I could've left Sothe and Micaiah at the entrance of the tower I would have.

Amppelix
Aug 6, 2010



you are weak and will not survive the coming winter

TriffTshngo
Mar 28, 2010

DANTE IS NOT


they're bad units op

Amppelix
Aug 6, 2010



yeah, that's the best part

Hellioning
Jun 27, 2008



More importantly though they are bad units that do not have cool designs or characterization that makes up for their badness.

Like I like Aran and I use Aran because I want every Halbedier possible in my army but he is nothing special. His character is 'I used to be a Begnion soldier but now I'm not.'

Wark Say
Feb 22, 2013

WELCOME TO THE DUNGEON

Amppelix posted:

you are weak and will not survive the coming winter
We've impaled Begnion senators with less and we'll continue to stack them genocidal assholes by their asses like it ain't no thang.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


every fe game should have you using terrible units. the better your units are the more boring and homogenized fe gameplay becomes.

Smiling Knight
May 31, 2011



Endorph posted:

every fe game should have you using terrible units. the better your units are the more boring and homogenized fe gameplay becomes.

This is why Part 2 of Radiant Dawn is so interesting. You’re units range from “potentially pretty good but need to hit growths” (Nephenee) to “deeply mediocre” (Nealuchi), but most are smack dab in the middle and you get to find out how to get the most value out of a Kieran or Lethe or Brom and it can be a lot of fun!

Strange Matter
Oct 5, 2009

Ask me about Genocide


Hellioning posted:

More importantly though they are bad units that do not have cool designs or characterization that makes up for their badness.

Like I like Aran and I use Aran because I want every Halbedier possible in my army but he is nothing special. His character is 'I used to be a Begnion soldier but now I'm not.'
Exactly. Aran is actually a totally fine unit, but he's got nothing interesting going for him. It's not even like Nephenee herself burns up the storyline of RD, but she's got something, on top of having an entire preceding game to back her up.

The Dawn Brigade ends up feeling like an entire army of FE4 style Substitute Units.

Sharkitten
Jan 14, 2010

If you're afraid of dying, how can you live!?



Hellioning posted:

More importantly though they are bad units that do not have cool designs or characterization that makes up for their badness.

Um excuse me but all 3 of micaiah's outfits are fire

Strange Matter
Oct 5, 2009

Ask me about Genocide


Micaiah's characterization is on point. Her frustration that Sothe's idolization of Ike is rich.

quote:

Sothe: Entering Gallia by yourselves would be nearly impossible. The man you need to get you into Gallia actually resides in Crimea. That man, Ike, is in contact with King Caineghis and his advisors. There's no doubt in my mind that he's the man you need.

Micaiah: Right. Lord Ike, "hero" of the Crimean Liberation, leader of the Greil Mercenaries, and father of Sothe's children...

Micaiah is a great character. It's a shame that she's basically written out of Part 4 entirely

Hellioning
Jun 27, 2008



Micaiah is one of the few exceptions, since she does get actual character development and outfit development, yeah.

And yes she did get totally screwed in part 4.

Strange Matter
Oct 5, 2009

Ask me about Genocide


In the absence of actual characterization, my wife and I assigned the DB the following personalities:

Edward: Shulk
Nolan: Dunban
Leonardo: Joey Wheeler

galagazombie
Oct 31, 2011


The Dawn Brigade makes you realize just how important supports are when you have such a large cast. Most part 2 and 3 characters can coast by on their PoR supports but most of Part 1's cast gets no such luck. Like Oscar to pick someone at random might not have any supports in RD but you can at least remember what makes him tick and why he'd be involved thanks to the last game. Laura? I guess she likes staffs?

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


i mean even just in terms of fe10 the returning characters get more interesting base convos than the dawn brigade. like oscar, boyd, and rolf have that bit where they find their birth mom and realize she was a terrible person, that alone is more than any of the dawn brigade get.

Walla
Sep 17, 2017




That's because the game isn't about the Dawn Brigade. Act 1 just shows the consequences of being on the losing side and the rest of the game is about Ike coming back.

Strange Matter
Oct 5, 2009

Ask me about Genocide


Endorph posted:

i mean even just in terms of fe10 the returning characters get more interesting base convos than the dawn brigade. like oscar, boyd, and rolf have that bit where they find their birth mom and realize she was a terrible person, that alone is more than any of the dawn brigade get.
Oh for sure. Other stuff that the Mercenaries get:

-Mia coercing Ike into a dual and convincing Rhys to referee and heal them when they inevitably almost kill each other
-Titania and Oscar considering the logistics of feeding an army that includes Ike and Skrimir and realizing that Oscar has vastly underestimated the amount of food he needs
-Shinon and Gatrie hitting on laguz chicks and Shinon savagely negging Lyre, who evidently likes it
-Boyd and Rolf having a literal fight over whether Strength or Skill are more important stats

Mostly it kind of peters out towards the latter half of Part 3, but right off the bat you understand who these characters are and what they are all about even if you've never played Path of Radiance.


Walla posted:

That's because the game isn't about the Dawn Brigade. Act 1 just shows the consequences of being on the losing side and the rest of the game is about Ike coming back.
The game very much is about them though because they not only serve as a source of drama in depicting the Begnion occupation of Daien but also the kind of impossible situations the Begnion senate can enforce upon an inexperienced leader, and Micaiah's anguished struggle with following orders to maintain the fragile order they've built and doing what she knows is right, all culminating in the Part 3 Pegasus massacre.

The only truly superfluous part of the game is Part 2.

Amppelix
Aug 6, 2010



playing tellius always reminds me of how great bonus exp is as a mechanic and how it should absolutely be in every fire emblem game. not only in the way it lets you level units you aren't necessarily using that much etc. but especially in how it's received from completing side objectives, beating chapters fast, and generally doing well in the game. FE traditionally has been hurting those kinds of mechanics that disincentivise you from just turtling your way through the map, and it's a great way to give some kind of reward to minor objectives you don't want to tie, say, a rare item to. all of the systems fit together so neatly i think it's nuts that they've never tried this concept again. it even increases accessibility a ton, and they've been all about that lately!

i think the only issue with its implementation in 9/10 would be that the information on what actually gives you bexp is hidden until *after* you clear a chapter (and after you've already beaten the game once in the case of PoR!) when it should clearly be displayed right there on the preparations screen to make you want to do it.

Lance of Llanwyln
Jun 11, 2008

GIVE ME MORE
SUPER BOWL
WINS


Yeah, BEXP was a really great mechanic.
One criticism is that it’s not at all sign-posted that it’s fixed at 3 stat-ups in RD, so you might reasonably feed a unit some and conclude they suck because they get relatively poor levels.
And it creates a perverse bit of power-gaming with units that hit their caps quick, since you can “force” strength and/or defense levels on some one like Mia who slams one or more stat caps, making more extreme characters stronger in a weird, unintuitive way.

Endorph
Jul 22, 2009


imo the 3-stat limit in fe10 is dumb. if people wanna reset for optimal levelups, just let them, its not like it breaks the game that much. if you *really* wanna force it, just do what fates did on the harder difficulties and roll for everyone's levels at the start of the game rather than as they level.

cause, yeah, the 3-stat limit is way easier to powergame than resetting, and if anythign basically punishes you for not powergaming it.

Amppelix
Aug 6, 2010



Oh yeah you're totally right, i just completely forgot about that part when making the post, I don't like it either.

E: speaking of powergaming what I do with bexp in RD when i want better levels out of it is just increasing exp up to 99 and gaining the last point in the next chapter. Totally intuitive!

Amppelix fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Mar 29, 2021

Amppelix
Aug 6, 2010



check out this edward by the way


he's rocking +2 str/spd/skl on his averages and also casually +3 (!) defense. i seem to always get edwards like this so while i know his performance is highly variable based on how good his first few levels are i've yet to actually see his bad side in action.

BlazetheInferno
Jun 6, 2015


I actually have an Aran who maxed out speed before promotion in a very old, rarely-touched RD file. It's a little scary.

Walla
Sep 17, 2017




So how viable would it be to raise Edward, Nolan and Leonardo for endgame on American Normal? Let's assume we take Jill to the Tower as well. On a scale from Relatively Simple to a Hellish Nightmare?

FoolyCharged
Oct 11, 2012

Somebody call for an ant?



I definitely did both nolan and Edward my first time, so I would say its pretty doable. Never touched leo to know about adding him in

E: people really undersell Edward. He has built in wrath and will absolutely be shredding people by the end of part 1 if you use him. His big weakness is that you probably wont use him AND Zihark, and while Edward is starting to see the light at the end of his slow started tunnel Zihark wades in and is a god of war from the word go with no investment required.

FoolyCharged fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Mar 29, 2021

Amppelix
Aug 6, 2010



Walla posted:

So how viable would it be to raise Edward, Nolan and Leonardo for endgame on American Normal? Let's assume we take Jill to the Tower as well. On a scale from Relatively Simple to a Hellish Nightmare?
totally doable, and even more doable if you're willing to do some cheese like rigging (i.e. do a battle save, perform the action that levels you up, and reset if it's bad) a few levels to make sure they get a good start and become self-sufficient during part one. i'm currently on track to get nolan and edward both to endgame ready stats and this is on hard mode all the while babying the gently caress out of meg, so adding leo in on normal should be absolutely no trouble at all.

Tae
Oct 24, 2010

Hello? Can you hear me? ...Perhaps if I shout? AAAAAAAAAH!


If Edward was Earth instead of light, I would use him more but the elemental bonuses are way overtuned for what they are.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

BEXP is a funny mechanic in that it makes every single map much better, despite not really being a map design feature.

Conquest has a bunch of maps with gimmicks to try to keep the player moving, with various degrees of success, but it really would have been significantly easier for IS to just put a BEXP-like mechanic in.

Yorkshire Pudding
Nov 24, 2006





I have reached “The Valley of Torment” on both BL and GD campaigns. Given that I’ve put about 100 hours into this game in the past two weeks, and I start a new job next Monday, I can probably only finish one. I was hoping they all had pretty unique levels, but it’s looking like both will have basically the same maps. And I don’t want to get halfway through both and burn out.

Which one would the thread recommend?I know GD has more lore and BL is more character based (lol at Dimitri going just batshit crazy after the time skip by the way), but they both seem fun.

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Carlosologist
Oct 13, 2013

Revelry in the Dark



Yorkshire Pudding posted:

I have reached “The Valley of Torment” on both BL and GD campaigns. Given that I’ve put about 100 hours into this game in the past two weeks, and I start a new job next Monday, I can probably only finish one. I was hoping they all had pretty unique levels, but it’s looking like both will have basically the same maps. And I don’t want to get halfway through both and burn out.

Which one would the thread recommend?I know GD has more lore and BL is more character based (lol at Dimitri going just batshit crazy after the time skip by the way), but they both seem fun.

Verdant Wind has a cooler final map

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