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DetoxP posted:To be fair, the laziest possible criticism of criticism is "Why don't YOU do it better then!?" He's not saying "why don't YOU do it better", he is saying "how would you do it" which is completely different. People ask the former in order to completely shut down a criticism, since the barrier there is the multi-million dollar budget and years of work. The difference here is that he is asking an honest question and opening up discussion. aBagorn posted:Personally, I don't find this to be a fault. Cliches are cliches for a reason. Using a predictable story allows viewers/readers to appreciate the thematic elements and the wonderful visual imagery without having to miss nuances of plot. In addition, the cliches he listed are already from high art (Romeo and Juliet among others). So saying "the sci-fi elements are supposed to elevate it to some higher level of art" is ridiculous, since Jonze was obviously not trying to elevate it above those stories but make a twist on these classic stories. And honestly, I don't see how an AI bringing in a surrogate or (end spoiler) advancing to such an extent that human interaction was pointless to her are "predictable" unless you are watching/reading some really bizarre (but somehow still cliche and boring??) love stories. Guy A. Person fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Jan 27, 2014 |
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Jan 27, 2014 20:30
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Okay, I'm probably way out of my depth here among you titans of discussion but it seems to be getting thrown around a lot that Samantha was created to serve Theodore and therefore was more or less obligated to become romantically involved with him. I can't comment on the deeper thematic representation of that but superficially that doesn't seem to be the case since; a. Samantha casually (perhaps a bit to casually) mentions early on that she's growing beyond what she was originally programmed for. b. Theodore's conversation with Aimee where he confides that he's in a relationship with his OS and she mentions that romantic relationships with OS's are rare implying that merely expressing interest in becoming involved with your OS is not enough, they have to be interested in you.
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Jan 27, 2014 20:50
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dayman posted:b. Theodore's conversation with Aimee where he confides that he's in a relationship with his OS and she mentions that romantic relationships with OS's are rare implying that merely expressing interest in becoming involved with your OS is not enough, they have to be interested in you. No Wave fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Jan 27, 2014 |
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Jan 27, 2014 21:05
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No Wave posted:You're assuming that most people would be romantically interested in the disembodied voice coming from their iPhone. (Also, the ocean of dudes excitedly chatting with their earpieces later on implies that Theodore was simply an "early adopter" - sensible given his upper-quintile level of isolation) The thought had occurred to me when writing my comment but it had not while watching the film. When Aimee brought up the rarity of Theo and Sam's situation, I immediately believed it was because Samantha's reaction to Theodore was atypical. This is where my film analysis skills break down but I've found that usually a viewer's first interpretation of a fact as it's revealed in a movie is the intended one. I can't pinpoint why I went in the direction of believing it was rare because of OS's rebuking the advances of amorous users instead of people generally being unexcited about the prospect of being in a romantic relationship with one, but I did. It made sense to me in the context of the movie. Later, the general emphasis on acceptance of their relationship seemed to clue me in that my interpretation was correct, but maybe not.
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Jan 27, 2014 21:25
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dayman posted:The thought had occurred to me when writing my comment but it had not while watching the film. When Aimee brought up the rarity of Theo and Sam's situation, I immediately believed it was because Samantha's reaction to Theodore was atypical. This is where my film analysis skills break down but I've found that usually a viewer's first interpretation of a fact as it's revealed in a movie is the intended one. I can't pinpoint why I went in the direction of believing it was rare because of OS's rebuking the advances of amorous users instead of people generally being unexcited about the prospect of being in a romantic relationship with one, but I did. It made sense to me in the context of the movie. Later, the general emphasis on acceptance of their relationship seemed to clue me in that my interpretation was correct, but maybe not.
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Jan 27, 2014 21:36
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dayman posted:Okay, I'm probably way out of my depth here among you titans of discussion but it seems to be getting thrown around a lot that Samantha was created to serve Theodore and therefore was more or less obligated to become romantically involved with him. Absolutely not. Falling in love was a choice they both made. BUT their relationship is colored by the fact that she is in a subservient role, and catering to any of Samantha's needs is not something that crosses his mind for the beginning of the film. From that, we get a glimpse of why his relationship with Catherine fell apart.
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Jan 27, 2014 21:43
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Steve Yun posted:Absolutely not. Falling in love was a choice they both made. BUT their relationship is colored by the fact that she is in a subservient role, and catering to any of Samantha's needs is not something that crosses his mind for the beginning of the film. From that, we get a glimpse of why his relationship with Catherine fell apart. The distinction between his relationship with Samantha and a relationship between a 38-year-old and a 17-year-old is...? Note that this is not "criticism" of the movie. I like the movie and that it poses these questions. It's just (an attempt at) discussion of it.
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Jan 27, 2014 22:34
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No Wave posted:There's a.) the subservient role, and b.) the fact that she's a child who's basically dependent upon him. Having sex with your servant is one thing - having sex with the servant that you adopted at birth is something else entirely. Perhaps it's because she's voiced by a 30-something actress, but I was never under the impression Samantha was ever supposed to be a child, or anything even considered young (can an AI age? does it have one?). At the very least you could argue she would've been aging faster than a comparable human, given her hyper-intelligence.
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Jan 28, 2014 00:48
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volumecontrol posted:Perhaps it's because she's voiced by a 30-something actress, but I was never under the impression Samantha was ever supposed to be a child, or anything even considered young (can an AI age? does it have one?). At the very least you could argue she would've been aging faster than a comparable human, given her hyper-intelligence. Well before she evolves to that next step where she transcends the physical there definitely a power imbalance in the relationship
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Jan 28, 2014 07:13
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niethan posted:Well before she evolves to that next step where she transcends the physical there definitely a power imbalance in the relationship
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Jan 28, 2014 11:53
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Just saw the movie last night, and I absolutely loved it. Adaptation is one of my favorite movies, but this one might beat it out. There are few things that I picked up on that no one's really mentioned. First off, there's a walking motif that shows how Theodore's emotionally maturing: 1) Very early on, he's alone playing a videogame, and his in-game avatar is stumbling in a snow/swamp area in a cave, barely able to walk and eventually falls over. He gives up in aggravation. 2) He now has Samantha, he's playing the game with her watching. His avatar is now running, but it's lost in the cave, and he's been "going in circles for hours". Samantha is giggling and watching, but finally tells him the correct path. Then he meets the child. It confuses him. Samantha whispers "I think it's a test". (Theodore has a blind date where he talks about his fascination with the child in the videogame--another AI.) 4) (Theodore's blind date has failed, he's had sex with Samantha, and they're now dating.) The next time he plays the videogame, he's sitting, laughing and talking to Samantha and the video game child (two AIs). His avatar isn't even moving. 5) Theodore is on vacation with Samantha. She introduces him to Alan Watts. He now feels inferior, alone, and sees that Samantha can literally have anyone she wants (though he's trying to hold on to the fact that he had her first and she chooses him). She leaves him to talk to the other AI. The next shot is him slowly walking/stumbling through snow. (Note that it's just like the first walking motif, but in reality.) 6) Theodore can't get in touch with Samantha. He feels desperation. He runs, but falls down. He gets up and runs again before finally sitting down. 7) Theodore gets Amy and they both walk to the roof together, slowly but comfortable. They sit together and look out at the city. She puts her head on his shoulder. (No matter how much he loved Samantha, and though they could have shared this moment, even with a surrogate she could never do such a simple human interaction like putting a head on his shoulder). Second, while I don't think the movie's intention is to say "Look at this guy who falls in love with an AI that's just been born), there's a scene that addresses the absurdity is a sweet way, and that's at his god daughter's birthday. He gives her the dress Samantha picks out and then lets the girl talk to Samantha. The little girl questions how she can be in "a little box" and sees the absurdity that she "doesn't have a body". Then she asks how old Samantha is. Theodore starts getting uncomfortable, and Samantha avoids the question with a joke ("How old do you think I am?" "Fiiiive?" "Ha-ha! I amfive!"--I think at this moment Samantha is 5 months old). Then there's the background character arc of Amy's relationships. 1) Her husband doesn't really contribute anything to conversations. He only ever corrects what people says with his own opinion. 2) She leaves her husband because she feels she doesn't fit in his opinion of what she should be. It was something insignificant as shoes. 3) Her ex-husband becomes a monk and takes a 6 month vow of silence. 4) She finds his OS and becomes friends with it. It could be seen that he wasn't being fulfilled by his wife in that she couldn't fit in this idea of perfection. So he gets an artificial intelligence that is designed to fit his needs. Then he rebukes all technology, his own wants, and his communication because of his vow of silence. 5) Amy is now good friends with the AI and it's basically saving her from rock-bottom depression 6) Amy is left by her AI as well. There's also an underlying sense that both Amy and Theodore know that their relationships are temporary. This is most evident when Amy and Theodore talk about their OSes and Amy says "You know what? gently caress it. I'm just trying to feel joy right now. What's wrong with being happy?" The documents signing scene is heart wrenching, too. At this point, Theodore feels that he's the reason the relationship didn't work. He feels like all he could do right was support his wife and make sure she was happy, which he seems to have done well. He helped her succeed and pushed her to work hard with her writing but to not be too critical of herself. But he says he was unable to give himself up and show that he had flaws as well. He was able to support her, but he never let her support him. When she's holding the pen and about the sign the paper, she hesitates and almost doesn't sign. Then it's done and they're both laughing and eating. Then she asks him if he's seeing anyone. He says yes, and she's visibly hurt, even jealous. Then he admits it's an OS, and she goes off on a tangent and berates him. Yes, what she says is technically true, but she's not doing this to be helpful. She's just as lonely as he is, and depressed, but while she's burying herself in her work, he's managed to find happiness with a computer. It's a kick to the ego, and she is emotionally violent (this is referenced a lot), and throws it in his face. And he's hurt and upset, but tries to hold it together, and begins questioning the happiness he's had and if what he's feeling is real. This one scene echoes their whole relationship. I also want to give a shout out to how amazing this movie looks. I loved the costume design, the set designs, the use of technology, the color scheme. This movie is absolutely beautiful to look at, and it's never once in your face, it just adds to the feel. Also, I'm calling bullshit on SMG's "subservient slave" logic. Yeah, there are aspects there, and there are scenes that comment on this, but to say that the whole movie is about that is to look at the trees instead of the forest.
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Jan 29, 2014 16:40
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I don't have much to say about it, but remember Theodore's answer to the question 'How was your relationship with your mother?' and keep it in mind when you watch what happens after the 'sex' scene and Sam talks to him, specifically what she says and her change in tone.
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Jan 31, 2014 00:27
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Jimbo Jaggins posted:I don't have much to say about it, but remember Theodore's answer to the question 'How was your relationship with your mother?' and keep it in mind when you watch what happens after the 'sex' scene and Sam talks to him, specifically what she says and her change in tone. Can you expand on this? I can't recall what happened there
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Jan 31, 2014 00:44
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I'll have to paraphrase as it's been a while since I saw it. He says whenever he mentions a problem to his mother she cuts him off and makes it about her, before he finishes speaking the OS setup cuts him off and starts talking about itself. It seems like it's supposed to be a throwaway joke. But later after the 'sex' scene Samantha tries talking to him and he interrupts to say he's not ready for commitment (which parallels the scene with Olivia Wilde's character the night before) and then Samantha's tone becomes very stern, the first time in the film, and she says something to the effect of 'actually I was about to talk about something relating to me not you'. Which you might also say shows she is already capable of dealing with situations he has said he has trouble with, but it definitely shows he does exactly what his mother does.
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Jan 31, 2014 00:59
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TangentEnigma posted:Everything about this movie was really good except the extremely predictable storyline. The actors, dialog, subtle treatment of the near-future sci fi elements, and pretty honest examination of all the implications of trying to gently caress your computer were surprisingly well done. Then they took all those resources and trudged through exactly the same acts/arcs as every other semi-tragic romance story. I agree. It was thought provoking but kind of sociology-lite edition And the story arcs were dull. Then again I have semi normal relationships and my phone is four years old.
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Feb 4, 2014 06:53
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Karen O recorded a new version of The Moon Song, a duet with Ezra Koenig from Vampire Weekend. Vocally, I think it works better when she's doing it herself, but I do like this version a bit more musically. If she had used the instrumental from this one and sang over it by herself, I would've liked to hear that over the end credits.
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Feb 10, 2014 23:01
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I've seen the movie twice now, and I can't get over how great the technology is. I really want a phone like Theodore, and I wish people used those little earbud things instead of big clunky cyborg bluetooth. So I've been looking around, and I found an article that goes into some of the design choices for the technology. You can read it here.
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Feb 12, 2014 15:34
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Franchescanado posted:I've seen the movie twice now, and I can't get over how great the technology is. I really want a phone like Theodore, and I wish people used those little earbud things instead of big clunky cyborg bluetooth. So I've been looking around, and I found an article that goes into some of the design choices for the technology. You can read it here. It was very much a more audio-focused world than real life, though. Everyone recieving news through speech, whereas even if we had perfect speech synthesis like they do I think most people in reality would prefer to read. And consequently they didn't have large-screen mobile devices or tablets that we're addicted to, just very small phones.
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Feb 12, 2014 15:37
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Franchescanado posted:I've seen the movie twice now, and I can't get over how great the technology is. I really want a phone like Theodore, and I wish people used those little earbud things instead of big clunky cyborg bluetooth. So I've been looking around, and I found an article that goes into some of the design choices for the technology. You can read it here. I do love that phone, I wish real phones were that simple/durable/pretty, and I love the swinging cover with the camera built in.
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Feb 12, 2014 15:51
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MikeJF posted:It was very much a more audio-focused world than real life, though. That article literally talks about why they chose that and why it makes sense, and how that will be a logical progression with technology.
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Feb 12, 2014 16:51
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Franchescanado posted:That article literally talks about why they chose that and why it makes sense, and how that will be a logical progression with technology. I really dramatically disagree with his prediction that we'll give up text so easily, though.
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Feb 12, 2014 17:02
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MikeJF posted:I really dramatically disagree with his prediction that we'll give up text so easily, though. In conclusion, AI is weird.
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Feb 12, 2014 17:17
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MikeJF posted:I really dramatically disagree with his prediction that we'll give up text so easily, though. Which is fair. The movie itself didn't show that text was given up. It's mentioned that Theodore likes the publishing house that picks his book because they still print actual books. The legal documents they sign are still actual legal documents. He write letters, orally, but they are still written, not only in text, but in a script that matches the handwriting of the person the letter is "from". The OS comes with written instructions. Again, the article, and the movie, aren't saying that everything will be voice-only. It's just a logical progression to allow technology to integrate with society instead of constantly distracting and demanding our attention. Which is why, as you mentioned, "they didn't have large-screen mobile devices or tablets that we're addicted to, just very small phones." If there was something he needed to read, a small flick transferred it to a bigger screen, or became a holographic dashboard in his living room. Or it could just be read to him like No Wave mentioned. Take the scene where he looks at the erotic photos of the pregnant celebrity. The phone reads the headlines to him. If he wanted to investigate the article further, he just had to look down at his phone and look at the picture or read the article. I doubt text will ever be disregarded, and I personally learn better through reading than listening, but technology is moving in a direction where voice activation is becoming a more viable option. Just look at Siri, or Google Now.
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Feb 12, 2014 17:35
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MikeJF posted:I really dramatically disagree with his prediction that we'll give up text so easily, though. I don't think anybody realized or predicted how huge texting would be so that's forgivable.
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Feb 12, 2014 18:07
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Aside from opinions on the film I find it really surprising just how few people have heard of it. There's adverts all over the place here and have been for a while, yet we saw it in a totally deserted cinema and when I tell people I've just seen the film, people don't know what it is. I think the choice of name might be a bit lovely.
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Feb 22, 2014 14:42
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I got to see Spike Jonze's short "I'm Here" the other day and it's an interesting kind of precursor to Her. A brief meditation on cute twee love with a much greater sense of self-destruction under the surface. (it doesn't end quite as happily as Her though)
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Feb 22, 2014 21:06
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I didn't get to see it til 2014 but this is most likely my favourite film of last year; the way it hit so many very human emotional beats using the context of an AI was outstanding. It was poignant and surprisingly funny as well. There were a few framing things around the final scene that did make me think 'suicide', but I didn't see this film going that way and I'm glad it didn't. I also thought that Samantha saying goodbye could have been seen as the company shutting the AIs down. It's unlikely given what came before it with her discussions, but I could see the message (if that was the intended one) being given as it was to make Theodore more at peace than if it was just her being 'switched off'. But as far I as I remember Samantha doesn't tell a lie during the movie, is this accurate? PTizzle fucked around with this message at 17:57 on Feb 26, 2014 |
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Feb 26, 2014 17:53
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88zmDFq9oLo&feature=youtube_gdata_player&app=desktop
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Mar 1, 2014 09:46
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stop, or my mom will post posted:Can anyone identify the song in the credits? The melancholic one that carries over from the final scene. "Dimensions" - last track on the album scored by Arcade Fire which is somewhat unexpected because they don't sound like that at all. It reminded me a lot of Red House Painters, actually.
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Mar 2, 2014 09:05
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So, this kinda got stiffed at the Oscars, but this happened and I loved it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNSuL8CgROY
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Mar 3, 2014 06:49
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Franchescanado posted:I've seen the movie twice now, and I can't get over how great the technology is. I really want a phone like Theodore, and I wish people used those little earbud things instead of big clunky cyborg bluetooth. So I've been looking around, and I found an article that goes into some of the design choices for the technology. You can read it here. I saw the film last night (and loved it) and was hoping for an article like this. One of my favourite things about watching it was seeing how they imagined UI would be in the near future. I actually thought the phone was surprisingly low tech considering what we have today and also the more futuristic desktop + projectors you seem him interacting with but I can see why they wanted to make it as simple and recognisable as possible considering how important it was. Great, great film. My only real criticism was with the casting of SJ. Her voice is perfect and in that respect she's a great choice, but I think she's also maybe a bit too famous so while you shouldn't really have been able to picture Samantha, we all know what SJ looks like and it was too easy to picture her instead rather than imagining someone new.
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Mar 4, 2014 16:02
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I think that aspect does help people that might not get into the concept as easily though.
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Mar 4, 2014 16:04
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Originally, Samantha was voiced by Samantha Morton, who performed her lines on set behind some kind of makeshift wall. I'm curious how that might have changed the film, and why Jonze thought Johansson was a better replacement (though at no time did I visualize Samantha as Johansson because of her easily recognized voice, and thought she was perfect for it). Also, I'm glad this got Jonze a best original screenplay Oscar. I really didn't think it would win anything.
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Mar 6, 2014 05:06
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I found this interview with Spike and the editor to be a fun quick watch. Spike's alien child voice still makes me laugh, and I love the idea of him annoying everyone on the set with it. "I didn't know you were a little pussy. Is that why you don't have a girlfriend? I'm going out on that date and gently caress her brains out and show you how its done. You can watch and cryyyyy."
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Mar 6, 2014 15:24
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Zedd posted:I think that aspect does help people that might not get into the concept as easily though. Definitely agree with this; I think SJ did an excellent job and it's an easy way to let people understand the AI is 'attractive' before getting to know how they work as a couple. I would like to know Jonze's reasoning for the switch though.
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Mar 6, 2014 17:31
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This film really needs a warning for people who just got out of relationships. I think there is this level of frankness about sex in particular that really elevated the film for me. One thing I really liked about the sex scene was that it didn't worry about letting Samantha and Theodore get really raunchy in their exchange. I think there is a way to do that scene--especially in the context of this film--to underline a poetry to their dialogue and try to make it seem beautiful. Instead Jonez opts for vulnerability over beauty. Beyond that, I have a discussion question. Do you think there is a chance that Sam would have stayed or things would have been different if Theodore would have gone along with the surrogate thing? As much as their relationship improves after the fight, I felt like his comment about her needing to stop pretending to be human really hit home for her and there's really no going back once he says it. I want to rewatch the movie to see if any of her speech patterns change, especially in relation to sighs, once the fight happens.
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Mar 9, 2014 20:52
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Timeless Appeal posted:Beyond that, I have a discussion question. Do you think there is a chance that Sam would have stayed or things would have been different if Theodore would have gone along with the surrogate thing? As much as their relationship improves after the fight, I felt like his comment about her needing to stop pretending to be human really hit home for her and there's really no going back once he says it. I want to rewatch the movie to see if any of her speech patterns change, especially in relation to sighs, once the fight happens. He dated Samantha because it wasn't a human relationship. Thinking about how he could have micromanaged a fight differently - that's a scary way to think. There's no hope in thinking about relationships between individuals that way.
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Mar 9, 2014 21:49
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No Wave posted:He responded the only way he could have responded. If he really felt that his relationship with Samantha was the same as a human relationship, he never would have had to have a relationship with an AI in the first place.
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Mar 10, 2014 00:45
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Timeless Appeal posted:Yes, but my question isn't about him. It's about Samantha. If she was with a Theodore who was into the surrogate thing, if she was allowed to go down the path of pretending at humanity would she have stuck with it? I know that the ending makes it all seem inevitable no matter the human or AI, but it really seemed like it was Theodore's rejection of her approximating human life that set her down the road of accepting her non-humanity.
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Mar 10, 2014 17:29
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Robot Chicken doing "Her" in a sketch from 2006: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm_mxK6Yfv0 The kicker, it's Scarlett Johansson doing the voice.
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Mar 10, 2014 17:52
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