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  • Locked thread
Night10194
Feb 13, 2012

We'll start,
like many good things,
with a bear.

I'm really glad there's a magic bagpiper.

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Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.
And a prostitute mercenary, because of course there is.

Green Intern
Dec 29, 2008

Loon, Crazy and Laughable

And a will they-won't they pair!

unseenlibrarian
Jun 4, 2012

There's only one thing in the mountains that leaves a track like this. The creature of legend that roams the Timberline. My people named him Sasquatch. You call him... Bigfoot.
A lot of these illustrations from Mercenaries got recycled in the RPG as representative of the various careers, which now puts them in a very different context than before I knew about these characters.

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.

unseenlibrarian posted:

A lot of these illustrations from Mercenaries got recycled in the RPG as representative of the various careers, which now puts them in a very different context than before I knew about these characters.

That was also weird if you play the tabletop version of the game. Seeing Gorman as just some typical alchemist belies how terrifying he is.

Halloween Jack
Sep 12, 2003

La morte non ha sesso

oriongates posted:

I was actually thinking of making Whispering Vault my next F&F. It is definitely unique.
Please do. I would do it if I didn't have 3 incomplete writeups ongoing and more that I want to do.

I've had a copy kicking around as a curiosity for a long time, but I never did more than leaf through it. I really like it. The parts that are addressed to the GM encourage giving players a lot of latitude when their efforts are in the spirit of the game; it's not at all like the "Don't let the Amberites get through this door" sort of advice. The themes of the game are pretty heavy, and it employs that sort of prose at times, but in other places it's downright playful. It knows that it's a game about playing Pinhead as a superhero.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009

I love the potoo,
and the potoo loves you.

theironjef posted:

That was also weird if you play the tabletop version of the game. Seeing Gorman as just some typical alchemist belies how terrifying he is.

Gorman makes me wonder if one of the game's developers didn't play Rise of Legends. There's a hero character in that game with an almost identical appearance and a very similar backstory, the difference being that the Rise of Legends guy drives a chemical warfare tank rather than footslogging.

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.

Cythereal posted:

Gorman makes me wonder if one of the game's developers didn't play Rise of Legends. There's a hero character in that game with an almost identical appearance and a very similar backstory, the difference being that the Rise of Legends guy drives a chemical warfare tank rather than footslogging.

Let's see what they do with the inevitable epic Gorman. Tanks are totally a possibility.

Doresh
Jan 7, 2015
Super Console


Let's make some monsters

Monsters

Sephiroth's little sister causes some serious awwwww wherever she goes.

Coming up with a list of monsters for any JRPG-inspired games (especially the ones with a level cap of 99) is quite a daunting task, even if there's plenty of critters to borrow from the source material.
To make things easier for the CPU, monster creation in Super Console is very fast and loose (aka the opposite of the Returners's monster creation). All monsters of the same level start with the same stats, which are then modified by their type(s) and whatever abilities and spells the CPU gives them.

Basic Stats

Monsters have the same level, primary and secondary attributes as the player characters. Their secondary attributes are however completely separate from their primary attributes. Everything solely depends on level (primaries are 5 + 1/2 level*, secondaries are straight up level - except for Toughness and Initiative which is 3/4 level plus 3; Defenses should get a slight extra boost if there are a lot of physical powerhouses in the party). Treasure is initially 5 times its level, but can go up if it has a particularly powerful monster type. Bosses and other strong monsters can drop an item, and most have another item that can be stolen.
This is overall pretty nice for palette swaps and recurring bosses, as you can just dial around with the level and then alter the details.

Speaking of types, this is where you flesh out the monster. They act as templates that modify primary and secondary attributes and list abilities that are either mandatory for that type or just very common. Most types are modelled after specific creature type families, like Goblin (aka "generic humanoid monster"), Elemental or Undead. More general include Magician and of course Boss.

A monster can have more than one type, creating stuff like an Elemental Undead Faerie Golem. This is especially useful for Ghosts, as that's a separate type from Undead without the typical Final Fantasy Undead traits.
There are no Human-centric types aside from Magician, but the game's supplement (which I will probably tackle as well) has you covered there. For now, pick Gobling or Magician.

As far as abilities go, the CPU has free reign to pick what he wants. He can give the monster some added resistances, weaknesses or status immunities, a couple spells, or abilities borrowed from a class or merely based on one. The only real limitation is that Bosses shouldn't be able to cast Relife and Cure IV, as that would make them pretty OP.

*) This means I was overselling magic damage a little for the example characters - if the monster in question wasn't a dedicated magician, that is.

Advanced Monsters

In the grand tradition of JRPGs, your typical random encounter monster will become less and less dangerous as the heroes reach endgame, thanks to the stream of damaging abilities they learn.
To make up for this, monsters can be assigned one of four special monster classes, a predetermined list of abilities that make it about +50% (later even +100%) stronger than a normal monster of the same level. They're essentially these annoying elite mooks you run into later dungeons.

(Note that boss monsters typically don't have a class, as they can already have anything the CPU wants them to have for more uniqueness.)

Brutish

The warrior class for monsters. Improved offense and defense, as well as a double- and later area-effect-attack. Especially annoying are level 40's Punt (kicks a front-liner into the back row, which loses its damage reduction if the front row is empty) and level 95s You Wouldn't Like Me When I'm Angry (lost Health adds to damage; if one of these dudes is down't to 1% Health, they hit with +99 to damage. Talk about ouch.)

Planar

Creatures from the elemental planes that are, well, extra-elemental. They gain some fixed resistances, weaknesses and elemental attack spells, with elemental boosts to their physical attacks. These guys get pretty scary at endgame, with level 80 giving them Beyond Elemental (their elemental attacks deal normal damage to targets that resist their element, triple damage to targets that are weak to it, and double damage to everything else) and level 95 granting Summoning (summons a fellow Planar of lower level for free).

Dreaded

The Status/Debuff class. They deal less damage than normal, but they can inflict an ever-increasing amount of status effects with their attack and even shut off positive effects on their target. Level 50 is especialy nasty, as they learn Touch of Doom (their attacks inflict Doom aka Instant Death). Level 65 gives them Dread Gas (an AoE attack that deals a crapton of different Status effects, like a Morbol or whatever they're called again), level 80 grants Boss Status (resists Status Effects like a Boss!), and level 95 grants the lovely Doom Gas (AoE Doom effect)

Magical

The spellcaster class. They start off with an elemental attack spell that levels up with them, learn to heal themselves and other Buffs (like Reflect at level 30), as well as a couple Status Effects. Level 50 gives Mana Thief (attacks damage Health and Mana, the latter partiall restoring the monster's own reserves) and level 80 grants Master Mage (Magic Skill +20). They have a lot of Mana at high levels, with level 65 boosting their maximum to 150% and level 95 flat out giving them infinite Mana.

Monster Use Guidelines

Monsters typicall come in groups of 2 to 6, with stronger monsters often travelling solo. It's generally okay to have the monsters of a new area be a bit stronger than the heroes. As long as they don't die too often, they will sooner or later be able to just curbstomp everything.
Things are a bit harder to gauge at higher levels when a lucky status effect can seriously wreck the party, but the CPU can always decide to play it safe and whip out status effect attacks on the fly if he's assured the party can handle it.

Sample Monsters

This covers some classics like the Forest Goblin (Level 1 Goblin), the Angry Snail (Level 1 Shell) and the Skeleton (Level 4 Undead), as well as something more original like the Shades of Future Past (Level 5 Robot Ghosts, remnants of the Golden Age) and the Carnivorous Grass (Level 10 Plant).

Reader Recommendations

Let's tackle your favorites:

(I'll base these ones on their appearance in Final Fantasy V or VI, but mostly V, as that game has just the right levels of goofiness for Super Console and my personal favorite. Recurring bosses will be based on their first encounter, with guidelines for later ones)

Ratpick posted:

Bomb. Definitely Bomb.

Here you go:


Bomb (Level 21 Bird Elemental)

A floating fireball monster that body slams people or casts Fire spells. After some time - or when its health is critically low - it will self-destruct for an AoE attack.

"Bird" is more of a general type for flying critters (with Bomb being a low-flyer). It's not strictly necessary for Bomb, but I figured "why not?". It makes him a bit faster, but squisher, which I guess makes sense for something that's all too eager to explode.

Attributes: All 11, except: Speed 26, Magic 16, Luck 16
Secondary Stats: All 21, except: Damage 16, Defense 16, Magic Defense 16, Evasion 31
Toughness: 19 Initiative: 24
Ticks: 25, 50, 75, 100,...
Special Abilities: Low-Flyer. Healed by Fire attacks, but takes double damage from Cold attacks. Casts Fire (16 Damage). When Health is in the red (aka <= 20%), or after 2 turns (one less than its average squishy life expectancy), it will self-destruct, killing itself while unleashing a Wide-Beamed Fire spell (or a stronger version that does not reduce the spell's power).
Treasure: 105 Bucks
Steal: Nothing (oh well, a Potion can't hurt)

Green Intern posted:

Everyone's favorite! The Pug/Tonberry.


Tonberry (Level 46 Brutish Shell)

A small, hooded lizard-thing with a lantern and a cleaver that will slowly walk towards the party to stab them to death.

Tonberry is an excellent candidate for a monster class, especially the Brutish one. Some games give his attack an instant-kill quality, but his classic appearance has him as a physical powerhouse that can really dish out the hurt.
The Shell type is actually designed for snails and turtles, but its modifiers (very slow, lotsa defense) were just too fitting for him. Sure, the type also reduces his damage output, but that's what Brutish is for.
And just to be really mean, I give it the Fighter's Sword-Scalpel ability.

Attributes: All 28, except: Vitality 33, Speed 18
Secondary Stats: All 46, except: Damage 41, Defense 66, Magic Defense 56, Evasion 31, Status Resistance 56
Toughness: 43 Initiative: 33
Ticks: 20, 40, 60, 80,...
Special Abilities: Weapon grants +5 until disarmed or destroyed somehow (already factored in). Can spend action to Psych Up (+3 Damage for the rest of combat). Can perform One-Two Punch (2 attacks in one action, costs 25% Mana). Punt (attack that deals half damage and sends target to back row). Sword-Scalpel (20% Crit Chance).
Treasure: 230 Bucks.
Steal: Plumed Hat (helmet , power = 12)

Hypocrisy posted:

Cataur obviously.


Cactuar (Level 27 Plant)

A weird cactus man that shoots out a hail of needles (1,000 to be exact) that are notable in that they always deal the same amount of damage (1,000 to be exact).
Again, there are no absolute damage numbers in Super Console, so this doesn't translate directly. Still, it suggest that this spell (1,000 is a class Blue Magic spell) ignores armor and therefore targets Toughness. It's pretty much a one-shot version of Bio. As the FF6-iteration of the Cactuar needs a turn of preparation before casting the spell, I'll say it deals as much damage as Bio II (Magic - 5) and doesn't cost Mana. At least they're pretty tough, so they shouldn't die in the first turn.

Attributes: All 19, except: Speed 9, Strength 24, Spirit 24
Secondary Stats: All 27, except: Defense 37, Magic Defense 32, Evasion 7
Toughness: 28 Initiative: 13
Ticks: 33, 66, 99, 132,...
Special Abilities: Double damage from fire. No damage from nature-based spells. Half damage from Ice and Water. Can cast 1,000 Needles (14 Damage, reduced by Toughness, requires 2 turns to cast).
Treasure: 135 Bucks, Feather (cures Petrification)
Steal: Feather

Baofu posted:

Don't tease the octopus, kids!

I take that as "Ultros Boogie!"


Ultros (Level 13 Elemental Fish Boss)

A giant purple octopus perv who doesn't serve any bad guy and is just goofing around on his own.

As a Fish (aka "generic sea critter"), he takes extra damage from fire attacks, and half from Ice and Water. I also made him a Water Elemental so he gets healed by Water and takes double damgage from Lightning (just like in the games). This extra type was not strictly necessary, but I did it anyways for convenience. It also weakens him on the magic side, which is part of the joke. And since he's a Boss, he's pretty darn beefy.

His only attacks are Tentacle (AoE physical attack) and Ink (aka the Blind spell). Later encounters grant him some buffs and debuffs, as well as a couple elemental spells and flight for some reason.

Attributes: All 22, except: Intelligence 17, Spirit 17
Secondary Stats: Damage 28, Defense 48, Magic Defense 43, Attack Skill 28, Magic Skill 28, Evasion 18, Status Resistance 33
Toughness: 23 Initiative: 23
Ticks: 25, 50, 75, 100,...
Special Abilities: +50% damage from Fire. Double damage from Lightning. Half damage from Ice. Healed by Water. Can cast Blind. Can hit the entire party with a single physical attack (25% Mana).
Treasure: 650 Bucks, Eyedropper (removes Blindness)
Steal: Eyedropper

biosterous posted:

Only one correct answer:


You have a fine taste.

Gilgamesh (Level 26 Goblin Boss)

Somewhat incompetent servant of big bad Exdeath, good ol' Gilgamesh made its entrance as the series' first recurring boss. He initially started out as a spear-wielding bloke, only to later hulk out into a multi-armed freak with a bunch of swords.

I could've gone for Ogre (aka "generic big humanoid monster"), but old Final Fantasy games make it pretty hard to tell how tall humanoid enemies actually are compared to the player characters.
His first appearance is pretty bland, as he only attacks and flees way before being killed. Later encounters have him use several spells (he's basically a Red Mage in this system), topped with the Dragoon's Jump ability. I would also give his multi-armed form some Fighter abilities. And let's not forget that cheap Excalibur-knockoff he uses in a later fight (essentially a physical attack that always reduces Health by only 1%).
And of course, later encounters give opportunities to steal pieces of the Genji armor set, the best there is.

Attributes: All 28
Secondary Stats: Damage 41, Defense 61, Magic Defense 61, Attack Skill 41, Magic Skill 41, Evasion 31, Status Resistance 46
Toughness: 33 Initiative: 33
Ticks: 20, 40, 60, 80,...
Special Abilities: Nothin' for now. He tends to flee though.
Treasure: 1,300 Bucks, Elixir (fully restores Health and Mana)
Steal: Elixir

There you have it. Pretty fast overall, especially if you make yourself an automated Excel sheet (which shouldn't be too hard seeing how the formulas are pretty straightforward).

Next Time: Gamemastering stuff, including the Main Villain (who is created differently)

Doresh fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Jul 21, 2015

oriongates
Mar 14, 2013

Validate Me!


Unknown Armies, part 22: Weirder People



quote:

Demons are really the spirits of stillborn babies desperately trying to experience a moment of the life they were denied.

Mak Attax

Mak Attax is a cabal of the magickally aware who, shockingly, actually have a job! Unfortunately that job is working at Mcdonalds.

Mak Attax are a group that is loosely organized by both their place of employment and a common goal: bring magick out of the shadows. Obviously this goal does not endear them to many people. Fortunately they are at least a bit smarter and less fanatical than the followers of the Naked Goddess in this regard. They know that simply "coming out" with the existence of magick in a dramatic, public way would simply invite a massive backlash (and/or get them immediately rubbed out by the Sleepers) and so their current goal is to get the world "primed" for knowledge of magick by gradually increasing public awareness of the weird and unnatural in everyday life. Their job at Mcdonalds is the means to this end. A lot of Mak Attaxers are pie-eyed dreamers who see magick as the ultimate tool for eventual utopia, believing that the reason magick is currently so hosed up and strange is because it is kept secret from the world at large. Of course some are assholes with "kewl powers" who really want an opportunity to show off how awesome they are without being shot or burned at the stake. They're a mixed bunch but overall they seem to tend towards benevolence (if a little delusional).

They accomplish this goal by sneaking magick into the meals and toys that they hand out to customers every day, essentially dropping charges into the food and drink to try and induce spontaneous Unnatural Phenomena in the consumers. Most of them know a ritual discovered by the founders of the cabal to pass the charges along to their customers. The group was founded by a Demagogue Avatar and a Mechanomancer shut-in with dreams of magickal do-gooding. They were joined by a third, a "geomancer" who studied ley-line theory. They decided to infiltrate burger joints (eventually settling on Mcdonalds as their primary) located at "nexus points" in the US where magick should, theoretically, be a bit stronger already. The Mechanomancer was also one of the early adopters of internet culture and use it as a tool to recruit and organize other mystically aware members. Nowadays he's the only active "leader" (the demagogue got mysteriously killed and the geomancer ran off) and he runs the organization's website and message board, making Mak Attax kind of a more benevolent mystical version of Anonymous. The site is used to share info, techniques and ask for help...as well as sharing celebrity sex-tapes, casual abuse and flame wars.

Now, for most of the group's 12+ year history they've been considered a joke by the rest of the Occult Underground. They've got ridiculous utopian views, work as burger-flippers and their common practice of passing charges onto customers means that at any given time most of their magickally capable members are too tapped out to actually accomplish anything impressive. They were considered nuts even by the standards of the Underground and so useless that the Sleepers didn't even bother to wipe them out despite their professed goal of revealing magick to the world. Most, if not all, of the Attaxer's don't have Cosmic level info so they're rarely involved in Archetype struggles. Then the year 2000 rolled around and the Max's were able to get everyone's attention in a big way.

First and foremost, the rest of the Underground realized just how huge (by UA standards) Mak Attax really was...they've got nearly 500 members making them bigger than the Sleepers, TNI and the Sect of the Naked Goddess put together and with a much higher ratio of magickal to non-magickal members. If they actually started saving up their charges and decided to take decisive action they could accomplish big things...and that's exactly what they did on New Year's.

You see Y2K had everyone in a huff, especially the conspiracy happy Occult Underground. Well on their website the Attax'ers begin organizing a plan they called Safe and Happy New year, to try and avert any millenial disasters that might hit. The first step was a poo poo-load of probability-warping magick aimed at making things difficult for anyone planning anything wicked on the new millenium. About 50 terrorists of various groups ended up jailed or hospitalized thanks to the Max's mystic pot-shots, foiling several major plots. The second was an extremely powerful Ritual (probably one of the only legitimately Major rituals out there) called the Ritual of Light which Max Attax organized to be performed in every time-zone world-wide as the new year arrived. The intent of the ritual was to prevent any magickal disasters that might be brewing as part of the millennium shift. No one really knows if this actually succeeded or not (or if nothing would have happened to begin with) but the scale of the project was immensely impressive and would have been entirely impossible for even the most powerful, but smaller, cabals out there. The Mak Attax group showed that once they get their heads out of the sky and their thumbs out of their rear end they could literally change the world...a repeat of the Ritual of Light performance really could make sweeping changes to society, or even reality itself...and for a while it looked like that might happen: the group was getting tons of new members and real attention from the Dukes and Lords of the Underground.

Then the World Trade Center attack happened. For a US-based group whose rep centered on defeating just these sort of incidents not even two years before this was a major blow to morale. A lot of members were lost and a lot of established members are now wondering if it's time to "reorganize" the cabal's leadership and priorities.

Derek Jackson: Derek is the "leader" of the Mak Attax group and the sole surviving founder. He was raised by one of the world's last "old-school" Mechanomancers who taught him everything he could about the school of magick. After his teacher died Derek went off to study mechanical engineering where he got involved in the then-nascent internet community and met Janet Kumyar, the passionate and charismatic Demagogue co-founder of their future cabal. One of the things that impressed Janet most about Derek was how well he managed to stay grounded despite his magickal skills, managing to still live and operate fairly well within the "real" world (or at least as well as any heavily introverted nerd does). Eventually they joined forces with Margret Brandt who had discovered the ritual to transfer charges to unsuspecting subjects.

The guy is a nice, trusting sort who's extremely unsuited to leading the group now that Janet and Margaret have died and disappeared, respectively. Unfortunately his naivety is being gradually stripped away by his work keeping Mak Attaxers in line (and safe from outside threats), making him stressed, jumpy and paranoid. One of the main reasons he's still alive is a Significant Clockwork which he inherited from his Mechanomancer uncle who used shell casings from the Normandy invasion to build it (disturbingly, this implies his uncle may very well have been a Nazi but Derek turned out okay at least). The clockwork, called Hermann has the external appearance of a leathery, wrinkled 50-year old german but deadly hand-to-hand combat skills.

Ritual of Lesser Correspondence: The ritual Mak Attax uses to pass charges onto others. It's actually quite powerful considering the use it gets put to. It essentially allows anyone who performs it to transfer charges to someone else. When used on non-adepts the result is relatively minor but it is possible for one adept to "gift" their charges to another (even another from a different school) who can then use it to power their own spells. It's main limitation (hence being called "lesser") is that the it only works for minor charges. Still, this means that working together a group of Adepts can be quite strong, passing charges from those who can gather them easily (like dipsomancers) with those who have a more difficult time of it.

When a charge is passed to a non-adept it tends to get used "instinctively" as a crude form of random magick. Some examples include a very short ranged teleportation to avoid being run over by a car, seeing the answers to a test spelled out in caterpillars on the windowsill and a vision that led to buried treasure. Most spells are much less dramatic and useful (the previous three probably had exceptional Soul scores) and likely resemble slightly guided Minor unnatural phenomena. A non-adept with a charge who knows the ritual can use it to pass it on to another as well (this is how the cabal makes use of it's non-adept members: An adept with a buttload of charges divides it up among a team of non-adepts who then pass them along to the public).

Ritual of Light It's not detailed here but I figured it bore mentioning just how powerful the ritual of light is. Unfortunately I don't recall where I read about it and I can't seem to locate it among my books but basically it allows the group who perform it to temporarily hijack partial control of reality by aligning themselves with the Statosphere. Essentially, dice no longer get rolled while the ritual is in effect. Instead events that would be decided by dice roll get decided by a vote...with the GM and each player having a single vote each. Majority rules. Needless to say a group that is united in a single goal can pull off amazing things while the ritual lasts. A group with conflicting goals will quickly founder.

quote:

There’s a glassblower in Xenia, Ohio who makes these globes, etching in the continents and whatnot. If you crack one with a silver hammer, it causes an earthquake right where you smacked it.

The Global Liberation Society

The GLS is a "cabal" only in the loosest sense of the word. They don't have any real magickal power or even much in the way of knowledge...they're solidly stuck in "Street" level concepts: they conceive that the world is not as it appears to be but they lack any real magickal "vocabulary" or understanding of the nature of reality. In a Street Level game they might be long-term antagonists. For Global gameplay they're dangerous but clueless and at the Cosmic level they're pawns at best.

Their history is tied into the (real world) I AM cult founded by Mark Ballard which splintered several times into new, more fragmented Sects based on "revelations" given to Ballard by the Count de Saint Germain. The GLS was born after one of these fragments of fragments fixated on Y2K as the tipping point of...something. Unfortunately (sort of) thanks to the Mak's nothing at all happened. The cult collapsed but the leader, Randy Douglas liquidated everything and used it to create the GLS.

While most of the "parent" cults were nutcases or apocalyptic "prophets" they were, on the whole, fairly harmless. The GLS is not. They are anarchists in the truest sense of the word. They more or less see the bonds of society and organization as the metaphysical equivalent of nuclear energy: split them apart and energy is "released" back in to the world. The GLS's goal is the release of as much energy as possible by tearing down any and all large structures and organizations: businesses, governments, societies, you name it. Although he's basically clueless Randy Douglas has somehow gotten a sense that something was meant to happen on the year 2000 that didn't...and to him that "something" was the destruction of the world, the ultimate release of "energy". Now he's looking for a way to make that happen...not in a metaphorical sense like WW3 or the collapse of society (although those are pluses), but in a very literal sense of total annihilation. Now he's looking for a way to make that happen...humanity isn't capable of it but he believes it's out there somewhere.

In the meantime the GLS doesn't actually act directly very much, but they do provide training, equipment and encouragement to anyone who is trying to bring things down, making them essentially a terrorist training camp. They fund themselves mostly by making and selling meth. Almost everyone apart from Randy Douglas and his inner circle is totally ignorant of the actual goal of the GLS and the "truth" of the Count de Saint Germain and the Ascended Masters.

Randy himself has a very, very limited amount of "real" knowledge. He's constantly on the lookout for occult texts and rituals, believing one of them will hold the power to destroy the world and he's somehow figured out (probably tipped off by one of the cabal's enemies) that Mak Attax is somehow responsible for what happened (or didn't happen) on Y2K). However, he doesn't know enough to realize Mak Attax is a fringe group operating within Mcdonalds...he literally believes that the corporation itself is secretly thwarting the true destiny of the world to keep everyone enslaved.

quote:

The Post Office, the Visa Corporation, and the IMF, are corporate manifestations/avatars of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva.

The Order of St Cecil

The Order of St Cecil is another sorta-clueless bunch who have only the vaguest understanding of the true nature of the universe...but they're at least a bit more effective and significantly more benevolent than the GLS. They are a group within the Catholic church dedicated to the eradication of magick in the world and the removal of demonic influence. They are all Jesuit priests and monks, essentially acting as a kind of secret "inquisition" operating on behalf of the church. They do not make use of magick themselves in any way (knowingly at least, it's almost certain that several might be unknowing Avatars)

According to UA Saint Cecil is a "secret" saint who brought the catholic church definitive proof of the existence of magick and its power and died in the process. Believing that this knowledge would actually make king's and lords more fearful (and possibly make them seek it themselves) the church created the Order of Saint Cecil as a secret and militant group who investigate everyone who might be using magick...including royalty and members of the church itself.

Modern Cecilites are extremely dangerous, getting the equivalent of special forces training and access to Vatican funding and assistance. They are all dedicated to their mission and while most lack any real knowledge of the "society" of the Occult Underground or the true nature of reality their dedication makes them even more feared than the Sleepers. Like Alex Able, having knowledge of magick without actually using it means they are dangerously clear-headed in pursuit of their goals (although their religious perspective does color things).

The Order is about the same size as the Sleepers but better funded and with access to a much bigger network of information and aid in the form of the Catholic Church (even if most members of the church are ignorant or disbelieving of the supernatural). One of their biggest advantages is that while they lack a lot of information on the true nature of magick they generally know it when they see it. If they get word of weird happenings, possessions or the occult they send someone to investigate. Usually it's a false alarm and the priest notifies local authorities, recommends a good therapist or doctor, etc. They don't waste their time smacking some kid with the bible just because he told his parents that he's gay or splashing babbling hobos with holy water. When they do find a situation has turned "hot" they call in reinforcements and categorize it one of three ways:

Hauntings: To a Cecilite a Haunting is a place where the barrier between earth and Hell has thinned...not enough to allow demons (yet), but enough to create problems. Basically this covers most types of spontaneous unnatural phenomena so the real cause might be an Adept living nearby, the presence of an artifact or unnatural being or just about anything else that lacks signs of direct, intelligent meddling. Cecilites don't actually believe in ghosts. Hauntings are dealt with as directly and efficiently as possible. If an object seems haunted they'll lock it away in one of the Vatican vaults. Haunted locations are usually bought, demolished and consecrated. Tougher nuts are sealed up as much as possible even if they remain active. They often mistake Otherspaces (including Rooms of Renunciation) as hauntings, and those are typically the most challenging of their haunting solutions.

Possession: This is a case where Cecilites are often right more often than they aren't. To Cecilites a possession case is one where a human is being controlled or manipulated by a demon. They've gotten fairly good at recognizing the signs of demon possession and although their exorcism techniques lack any real magickal power they're often surprisingly effective. They get the possessed individual somewhere remote and secure and at least three priests work full-time to perform loud ritual exorcisms every three hours (Cecilites notably do not engage in any kind of physical abuse or torture...they're trying to save the victim of possession and they've found that these methods are unnecessary and counterproductive). A good chunk of the Order are psychologists/psychiatrists and use intensive therapy whenever they aren't bible-thumping, sometimes along with medication to soften up the victim. In cases where they can't finagle some kind of legal permission to "intervene" they can and do stage fast and effective kidnappings: a squad of priests in full riot gear armed with tasers and beanbag-loaded shotguns quickly and (if possible) quietly take the possessed victim down and generally get them loaded onto a boat and into international waters ASAP.

Despite the lack of any magickal power behind the rituals they generally get the job done (more or less) in actual possession cases. Demons are occupying a body to fulfill an obsession and they generally can't do that while locked in a farm being fed porridge and water and prayed over...so they leave. A demon finds loud, aggressive bible-quotes as tiresome as anyone else. Even in the case of especially stubborn demons who won't leave the priests work with the victim whenever they're in control of themselves to encourage them to resist. In game mechanic terms they're essentially "training" the victim's Soul score which will, with time, give them a chance to force out the demon for good. Once free the demon's often try for possessing one of the priests but they're typically characterized by good Soul scores so this rarely works out. One things the Order can't do (although they don't really know this) is actually get rid of demons. At best they're pushing the problem off onto someone else as the demon will just fly off and find a new victim somewhere else outside of the priest's notice.

Possession is the most likely diagnosis when a priest encounters an Adept...because really the behavior of an adept can be quite difficult to distinguish from the behavior of a demon. They'll treat an adept the same way they do anyone else and the procedure is still quite effective. Effectively they're using the same process as learning an Adept school in reverse: force the Adept to bust on Madness Meter (usually Helplessness) and then use the opportunity to "rebuild" their world-view. Adepts usually come out of these sessions without magick and with a healthier (if possibly a little fanatical) outlook and likely a religious Paradigm skill. Most Avatars fly under their radar and since an Avatar lacks the adept's obsession it's tougher to "re-educate" them but occasionally Cecilites do run across particularly unsubtle Avatars who get the bible-and-beanbags treatment (especially less "sociable" ones like the Savage). Although they can't directly dismantle an Avatar (and powerful Avatars tend to have somewhat higher Soul skills than Adepts), imprisoning them will often force the Avatar to violate taboo until they lose their powers.

Incarnations are cases where things get really serious and when the beanbag rounds and bible-verses get replaced with SMGs and incendiary grenades. To the Order an Incarnation is a demon in physical form, not merely possessing a human host. This is typically what they classify Unnatural Beings as (things like murderous non-entities and Unspeakable Servants) but Epideromancers tend to get this treatment as well since a trapped Epideromancer will usually change into something that doesn't seem much like a human anymore. The Order does not mess around...they contain the "demon", get any innocent bystanders to safety and kill it. Then the burn the remains, praying over it and grind anything left into a fine powder. The powder is stored in a consecrated urn and stick that in a storage facility that resembles a cross between a supermax prison and nuclear waste storage.

Needless to say, it's effective.

The Order of Saint Cecil is one of the most powerful "cabals" while simultaneously one of the most ignorant. They've got training and funding that TNI wouldn't sneeze at and they've been doing their thing longer than the Sleepers (even longer than the Sleeper's supposed "origins). They combine sanity, dedication and a christian Paradigm skill that makes them tough to shake either physically or mentally and while they may be seen as fanatics they truly believe they are doing God's work and are almost universally willing to put their lives on the line. Plus, they have one thing few cabals have: actual, concrete results. Even if they don't always know what they're doing almost every member of the Order has seen their work result in significant, visible "good": families reunited, lives saved and livelihoods put back together again.

The downside is that they've been collecting magickal info for so long without actually using it themselves that they have almost no idea whats true. They don't know what adepts or avatars are and they've certainly got no clue about the Cosmic truths of the universe (well, they'd disagree). Most of their info is contradictory and even the stuff that was true at some point is hopelessly out of date. That's one reason their practices are so simple...they've found trying to catalog and research events is often ineffective compared to simply, straightforward action.

quote:

Thomas Edison’s Necrophone—for speaking to the dead—never worked. However, he did develop the Neophone, for speaking to the unborn.

After this we'll finish up the chapter with the Order of Saint Cecil's polar opposite: Satan's Chosen Temple, a small, baseless cabal of losers and dropouts who worship "the Devil" and summon demons. Along with that will be some unaffiliated but interesting NPCs.

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012
Fallen Rib


Once upon a time...

It's the year 2005 and the 3rd edition of Dungeons & Dragons is five years old. The tabletop roleplaying game industry has been riding a wave of d20-mania for just about as long, buoyed by the Open Gaming License and the promise of sales bolstered by compatibility with the world's largest and most popular RPG.

Into this comes Green Ronin, originally Ronin Publishing, founded by Chris Pramas, a one-time Wizards of the Coast employee. Taking advantage of advance knowledge of the forthcoming d20 license Pramas published Death in Freeport on August 10th 2000, the same day that the 3rd Edition D&D Player's Handbook went on sale. Even after Pramas was laid off from WotC in 2002 Green Ronin continued to make a name for itself publishing a variety of d20-based sourcebooks and adventures, branching out into publishing their own full-fledged games such as Mutants & Masterminds in 2002 (perhaps the only successful attempt at making a d20 derived superheroes game that doesn't suck) as well as licensed works like an RPG based on Glen Cook's Black Company fantasy series in 2004.

But now Green Ronin wants to try something new, something more original that reaches out to a different audience. In 2005 they publish Blue Rose, the Roleplaying Game of Romantic Fantasy designed by Jeremy Crawford, Dawn Elliot, Steve Kenson, and John Snead. Blue Rose was unique in two respects. For one thing it was Green Ronin's first game published using a pared down and streamlined version of the 3E D&D system which they later turned into a standalone system-agnostic product called True20. For another, Blue Rose was an attempt to make an RPG inspired by a different sort of fantasy fiction than most fantasy RPGs drew from. Instead of the sword and sorcery tales of Robert E. Howard's Conan or the mythic sagas of J.R.R. Tolkien, Blue Rose drew its inspiration from the works of Tamora Pierce and Mercedes Lackey, attempting to marry that with traditional D&D style tabletop gaming and create something distinct, with a different focus than the long-established traditions of pillaging dungeons and slaying wandering monsters.


I'm the deer.

The reception to it was, put charitably, a bit of a mixed bag. I'm not undertaking this review primarily to editorialize but it's difficult to discuss Blue Rose without noting the fact that when it came out it quickly garnered a number of extremely vocal critics who saw within it an attempt to subvert the roleplaying hobby, push a political agenda, condemn traditional fantasy roleplaying, or who simply couldn't understand what they were supposed to do with a setting that they perceived as being a flawless shining utopia free from conflict. Now this was four years before "Social Justice Warriors" would become a thing for people to rail against, but even then the sentiment was clearly there...Blue Rose was a weird, neo-liberal/feminist RPG obsessed with gay people and magic deer, a sugar-coated, idyllic fantasyland for people to pat themselves on the back over owning rather than a serious game to be played.

Blue Rose never made a huge impact as far as I'm aware, though it wasn't the dismal failure that some people made it out to be either. It was envisioned as a limited, self-contained gameline and had three supplements published for it, the Blue Rose Companion, the World of Aldea, and the Narrator's Journal (a 35 page GM's prep guide essentially). It won an ENWorld Silver Medal at GenCon 2005 for Best Rules. So it wasn't a failure by any stretch, but it never really rose to the level of a breakaway hit the way that Mutants & Masterminds did, and if I had to hazard a guess I'd say that this was probably more due to many tabletop roleplayers' unfamiliarity with and/or lack of interest in romantic fantasy than their outrage over implied agendas or cervid-based lines of succession. However it's worth noting that Green Ronin has just recently finished a successful Kickstarter to fund a brand new edition of Blue Rose, this time using their AGE system first used in their licensed Dragon Age RPG, so perhaps there's more interest out there after all. Or maybe people just want to see what all the fuss is about.

Speaking of systems though, another reason why Blue Rose might have fallen off the radar for a while is what's perhaps the game's true deep, dark secret...that under the hood, the True20 system that it runs on is fantastically loving boring. Blue Rose came out at a time when everyone and their dog was publishing d20-compatible fantasy RPG material and while Green Ronin is hardly some fly-by-night operation churning out shovelware, Blue Rose's mechanical underpinnings are an inescapably boring rehash of 3E D&D without much to set it apart from the herd or even reinforce the themes of the romantic fantasy genre its setting draws inspiration from. It's streamlined, yes, but even being streamlined doesn't do much to alleviate the dullness of it in my opinion. Fans of interesting and deep mechanical crunch or clever mechanics probably won't find much of interest to them, and people looking for games with a strong narrative or thematic bent aren't likely to get excited over yet another d20 derivative game complete with samey-looking lists of skills, spells, and feats.

Fortunately one of the prevalent themes of romantic fantasy is the power of cooperation and friendship, and so I won't be tackling this alone. Fellow poster gradenko_2000 has never met a d20 system that he couldn't analyze and helpfully summarize, and so the two of us will be collaborating on this magical journey together...I'll be handling the fluff side of things and he'll handle the crunch. I don't expect things will follow a strict pattern and we'll probably both wind up commenting on all aspects of the game as we cover them, but for the most part you can expect him to deal with the bulk of the mechanical analysis, showcasing the True20 system's similarities and differences to the standard 3E D&D system (as well as presenting his own opinions on the quality of the system as a whole, which may be more charitable than mine), while I'll be attempting to present an in-depth look at the world of Aldis and hopefully clarify some of the misconceptions and confusion surrounding it.

Next Time: Introductions, Explanations, and Magic Deer

inklesspen
Oct 17, 2007

Here I am coming, with the good news of me, and you hate it. You can think only of the bell and how much I have it, and you are never the goose. I will run around with my bell as much as I want and you will make despair.
Buglord

Kai Tave posted:

Next Time: Introductions, Explanations, and Magic Deer

:allears:

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012
Fallen Rib
Spoiler alert, literally the first thing in Blue Rose aside from the table of contents prominently features the magic deer. They don't waste any time putting that front and center.

Serf
May 5, 2011


Kai Tave posted:

Spoiler alert, literally the first thing in Blue Rose aside from the table of contents prominently features the magic deer. They don't waste any time putting that front and center.

Oh so that's why Pundit harps on that so much. That's as far as he got in the book so it's all he knows.

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.


Grimey Drawer
Every time I see 'magic deer' I think of the Jagermeister logo-- and I both like romantic fantasy and can't drink the stuff.

Humbug Scoolbus
Apr 25, 2008

The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.
Clapping Larry
I like True20. It's very streamlined and it allowed me to get people who would ONLY play '3.0' to try something else for a change. This let me get them to play other non-d20 games, so as a lever it worked pretty drat well.

Green Intern
Dec 29, 2008

Loon, Crazy and Laughable

I'll be off commissioning Brew Rosé, the game of alcoholic fantasy.

(Looking forward to your Blue Rose writeup)

Hypocrisy
Oct 4, 2006
Lord of Sarcasm

I don't understand Magic Deer. Is this some sort of reference?

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
2014-2018

No. There is literally a very important magic deer in Blue Rose that some people got very upset over.

JohnnyCanuck
May 28, 2004

Strong And/Or Free

Hypocrisy posted:

I don't understand Magic Deer. Is this some sort of reference?

You'll understand soon.

Magic Deer is coming.

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012
Fallen Rib

Hypocrisy posted:

I don't understand Magic Deer. Is this some sort of reference?

Yes, it's a reference to Blue Rose's magic deer.

That Old Tree
Jun 24, 2012

nah


Thanks for doing this one.

Serf posted:

Oh so that's why Pundit harps on that so much. That's as far as he got in the book so it's all he knows.

Eeeh, "they don't even play/read" just because you don't like them is an insult the RPGSite can go ahead and keep for itself.

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.



We read Human Occupied Landfill. By the hoary balls of Vecna I hated this book.

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.


Grimey Drawer

theironjef posted:



We read Human Occupied Landfill. By the hoary balls of Vecna I hated this book.

Did you fail your withstand/enjoy hellish agony roll, poring over the handwritten scrawl?

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.

Bieeardo posted:

Did you fail your withstand/enjoy hellish agony roll, poring over the handwritten scrawl?

This book made me so blindingly angry that I could probably just do another episode on it without repeating myself at all. It's the most hamfistedly adversarial book of all time, and it has dumb nonsense like the Joke skill that requires a joke be told by the player to be judged by the rest of the table (why doesn't for example the Shoot Stuff skill work like that?).

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012
Fallen Rib
I could be wrong but isn't HoL not really meant to be played as such? Like, yeah it's adversarial and inconsistent and a pain in the rear end to read, that's the joke.

PantsOptional
Dec 27, 2012

All I wanna do is make you bounce
Yeah, it was always my understanding that this was never meant to be played as an actual game. It was a drunk joke of an idea that somehow managed to make it to print.

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.

Kai Tave posted:

I could be wrong but isn't HoL not really meant to be played as such? Like, yeah it's adversarial and inconsistent and a pain in the rear end to read, that's the joke.

We address that, and indeed perhaps we fell for the writers original big joke. That's okay, we're due. I still get grumpy letters from people that are peeved about Duckman not being real.

Ultimately though, it's not funny. I mean, it's like it was written by Dave Barry's teenage goth son.

Pope Guilty
Nov 6, 2006

The human animal is a beautiful and terrible creature, capable of limitless compassion and unfathomable cruelty.
Has somebody already done Greg Costikyan DESIGNER X's Violence? HoL always seemed like crap next to it, and they're not far off in terms of concept.

LornMarkus
Nov 8, 2011

theironjef posted:

We address that, and indeed perhaps we fell for the writers original big joke. That's okay, we're due. I still get grumpy letters from people that are peeved about Duckman not being real.

Ultimately though, it's not funny. I mean, it's like it was written by Dave Barry's teenage goth son.

Yeah, but I'm pretty much right there with you. Even if the book was screamingly funny, making people pay money for a game that doesn't work is kind of a dick move. The much better way that was done was with Dungeon the Dragoning, where it was released for free. It really is funny how dumb and silly it is, and it probably isn't at all playable but having not spent money on it (or made my friends drop any cash on it) I'd be happy to try and see if it does explode when played.

Hell, even assuming the game was released before it was feasible to just drop it on the web and let people go nuts, they could have just printed it on super cheap paper and threw a couple in with every shipment of other stuff they sent out.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

FATAL & Friends
Walls of Text
#1 Builder
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Forces of Warmachine: Mercenaries



It is currently a very, very good time to be a privateer. Some people don't understand the subtle distinction between pirate and privateer, but it is important. Pirates are criminals - thieves and killers out for profit. This is against most nations' laws. Convicted pirates are usually hanged, branded, maimed or blinded. Most navies spend a lot of time hunting pirates and protecting merchants. However, piracy is very profitable, so even governments get tempted - and so privateers exist, sponsored ships that engage in legal piracy against enemies. Most nations legitimize their privateers with letters of marque, entitling a captain to "make prizes" - that is, plunder. The letters detail how a captain can attack and which nations can be attacked, what percentage must be paid to the kingdom, what kinds of weapons can be used and so on. The letter is transferrable between ships, but only under careful legal record. This ensures privateers don't accidentally attack the wrong nation - or their own.



Privateers are encouraged to attack both enemy ships and pirates. This frees up naval ships for war and lets the government profit off the enemy, as well as occupying crews that might otherwise turn to piracy. Ord, Cygnar and Khador routinely employ privateers, and they're hardly the only ones. Ord makes heavy use of them to supplement its small navy, much as it uses mercenaries to supplement its armies. King Baird II is famous for permitting Ordic sailors to rob Cryxian and Mercarian League ships in his waters, in return for a quarter of all spoils. Some say Baird himself sometimes leads privateer attacks, but the Ordic court denies this.

Most privateer crews don't care much about their legal status, so long as they can engage in their favored plunder. Privateer cpatains can pick and choose their crews, thanks to the profits they enjoy, so they often have some of the deadliest ships on the Meredius, and merchants tend to surrender to them without a fight. Each crew is technically beholden to one nation, but most captains are profiteers before patriots, and they often take on mercenary contracts. Navies frown on this but do not interfere, provided the targets aren't part of their nation and the job doesn't blatantly violate the letter of marque. Because all shipping concerns like the Mercarian League or Blaustavya Shipping and Rail are targets for pirates, they often hire privateers discreetly to serve as escorts for valuable shipments. Some of the most disreputable privateers will turn on their own convoys, killing the crews and selling the cargo for profit.

Some privateer ships are crewed by motley collections of mercs, focusing more on coastal raiding than piracy, and in fact many crews just see their ships as convenient platforms to attack the mainland. They're more similar to mercenaries than pirates in most respects, with the advantage of a floating safe haven and transport. Certainly almost all succesful privateers supplement their arsenals with a warjack or two, and Ordic laborjacks refitted with weapons are highly prized. Even more sought after are 'jacks like the Mariner and Freebooter, which can handle work underwater for short periods. Captains that can't afford these will take decommissioned landbound 'jacks, particularly Mules. Many privateers also augment their ships with steam engines, using paddlewheels or sidewheels to move their ships. Captain Bartolo Montador, more famous as Broadsides Bart, commands one of the most potent steamships around, the Calamitas, which runs on three paddlewheels and has immense cannons. It's a nightmare for naval commanders, given its size and power.



Life for a pirate is brutal and short. They risk capture and execution whenever they head out, and so many do seek to become privateers - it's safer. This has fueled a market in Five Fingers that sells forged letters of marque. Most pirate captains, however, quickly become famous and then get captured and killed before fading back into obscurity. Captain Phinneus Shae and the Talion walk that line better than most. Since the mutiny on the Mercarian League ship Exeter in 600 AR, Shae and his crew of mutineers have survived and prospered despite all the dangers. They attempted to become legitimate mercenaries, but the League ensured they'd never be forgiven or forgotten for their crimes, ruining all of their families. Shae, determined to get his revenge, began to look for a ship worthy of his crew. He found the Talion, a three-mast frigate with forty guns and a large cargo bay despite its great speed.



In the last few years, Shae and his crew have made relentless war on the Mercarian League, earning a reputation as fierce pirates. They are disciplined and deadly, fighting Khador, Cygnar and Cryx on occasion as well as rival pirates. They've sold their services to many criminals, and the contacts of the Rhulic exile "Lord" John Rockbottom have gotten them into several ports despite their status, as well as earning them lucrative mercenary contracts. Shae makes an effort to shield his crew by taking the legal burden of piracy onto himself, and he's wanted in both Cygnar and Khador. The Talion is often seen in Five Fingers, Blackwater and Clocker's Cove, but its home is an unmarked island between Carre Dova and Berck. The crew mostly controls the town there, which they name Bottomton after John Rockbottom, the unofficial mayor. The ship comes in there for repairs, supplies and to lay low. Shae has captured a number of prize ships, so he has a small fleet there, and it's rumored that he may be in secret employ to King Baird, with a secret but legitimate letter of marque allowing strikes against Mateu Merchant House. If he does, though, he rarely uses its protection, preferring to survive on his wits, guile and gigantic death cannon.

The Talion charter, which all crewmembers must obey, effectively declares war on the Mercarian League and their shipping, but they'll happily attack other organizations or even naval vessels. The charter has terms for splitting plunder, with senior crew usually getting larger shares. New recruits are brought in constantly to replace the dead, but the rewards are usually worth the risk. Lord Rockbottom recently expanded the charter to allow other ships to join them and negotiate shares. This was needed due to combined efforts with the Calamitas and Montador's other ships, and now these pirates and privateers are starting to coordinate their efforts against the Mercarian League, both on land and sea. When gathered under one banner, they've often proven superior to any normal army or navy force of comparable size.



Fiona the Black will work for Cryx, Cygnar or khador, but will not join any army containing even one Morrowan unit. This is because she is an unashamed Thamarite, openly displaying her loyalty to her much-hated goddess and taking pride in having liberated herself from conventional morality. She is the owner of the Ill Fortune in Broadsides Bart's fleet, and she's known to be a moody schemer. Her love of battle and her courage have inspired an obedient and adoring cabal, many of whom crew her ship. Her cult is disciplined and coordinated in ways other pirates find unsettling, and while Fiona leaves nautical matters to her captain, Calvar Santoni, the ship is unquestionably hers. Even Montador asks permission before he boards. Fiona's sorcery manifested in her youth in Ceryl, as did her hatred of authority and her love of disobedience. This made her an easy target for Thamarite recruiters, who helped refine her power. She soon came to hate her cult, however, for hiding away in the shadows and disguising their faith. She learned what she could from them and fled to the sea, taking on the name Fiona the Black. She soon became more potent than the pirate captains she joined, until she meet Bartolo Montador, whose will allowed him to resist her manipulation and earn her respect. The true nature of their partnership remains a mystery. She loves to fight, and with the Calamitas supporting her she's unafraid to attack ships twice the size of Ill Fortune. Her daring has earned her a growing reputation for being untouchable. Her gimmick is buffs and debuffs, particularly in the form of brands, and using her cultists. Her feat massively debuffs enemy attacks.

Next time: It's how you look at buccaneers that makes them bad or good, and I see us as members of a noble brotherhood

PantsOptional
Dec 27, 2012

All I wanna do is make you bounce

theironjef posted:

We address that, and indeed perhaps we fell for the writers original big joke. That's okay, we're due. I still get grumpy letters from people that are peeved about Duckman not being real.

Ultimately though, it's not funny. I mean, it's like it was written by Dave Barry's teenage goth son.

It's me, I am the guy who's rustled about Duckman. I listened to about 3/4 of it on the way to work the other day, thinking "wow, this sounds completely insane, I have got to find this" and then Googling it at work pretty much resulted in a sad trombone sound.

You're 3000% right about HoL being horribly unfunny. At best it's definitely one of those "well, it was funny to us" kinds of jokes.

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012
Fallen Rib

LornMarkus posted:

Yeah, but I'm pretty much right there with you. Even if the book was screamingly funny, making people pay money for a game that doesn't work is kind of a dick move. The much better way that was done was with Dungeon the Dragoning, where it was released for free. It really is funny how dumb and silly it is, and it probably isn't at all playable but having not spent money on it (or made my friends drop any cash on it) I'd be happy to try and see if it does explode when played.

Hell, even assuming the game was released before it was feasible to just drop it on the web and let people go nuts, they could have just printed it on super cheap paper and threw a couple in with every shipment of other stuff they sent out.

HoL was published in 1994 so yes, this was back before the advent of digital publishing, which means that releasing it for free wasn't really an option. As for Dungeon: the Dragoning 40K, I don't think it's a good point of comparison to HoL because while D:tD (and that's not confusing at all now that Demon: the Descent exists) is certainly not a super serious game it's also, so far as I'm aware, actually meant to be played. How well the guy succeeded at making a playable game is another thing, but you're comparing a parody to something that isn't intended to be one.

And really, is it honestly a dick move that HoL is a mess? It's called Human Occupied Landfill for gently caress's sake. Someone who buys a game with a name like that is probably not super concerned with things like mechanical rigor and is likely to be right in line for HoL's brand of humor, and I don't recall that HoL was ever pitched to people as "a super rad for-serious RPG that you should totally buy to play right now." I'm not saying that you're wrong for not liking HoL, but characterizing it like the writers were trying to pull a bait-and-switch misses the mark.

LornMarkus
Nov 8, 2011

Kai Tave posted:

HoL was published in 1994 so yes, this was back before the advent of digital publishing, which means that releasing it for free wasn't really an option. As for Dungeon: the Dragoning 40K, I don't think it's a good point of comparison to HoL because while D:tD (and that's not confusing at all now that Demon: the Descent exists) is certainly not a super serious game it's also, so far as I'm aware, actually meant to be played. How well the guy succeeded at making a playable game is another thing, but you're comparing a parody to something that isn't intended to be one.

And really, is it honestly a dick move that HoL is a mess? It's called Human Occupied Landfill for gently caress's sake. Someone who buys a game with a name like that is probably not super concerned with things like mechanical rigor and is likely to be right in line for HoL's brand of humor, and I don't recall that HoL was ever pitched to people as "a super rad for-serious RPG that you should totally buy to play right now." I'm not saying that you're wrong for not liking HoL, but characterizing it like the writers were trying to pull a bait-and-switch misses the mark.

Well, here's the thing about the first bit: if it was just never meant to be playable then it shouldn't be a game, full stop. If it was meant to be weird and dumb and they just went too far and accidentally made it unplayable then it's comparable to D:tD. As to the other, I don't really hate it I'm more just taking issue with that base idea of presenting something that is not a game as one. Obviously getting mad on the behalf of anyone who actually bought the thing back on the day is silly, regardless of whether they knew what they were getting into or not.

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012
Fallen Rib

LornMarkus posted:

Well, here's the thing about the first bit: if it was just never meant to be playable then it shouldn't be a game, full stop. If it was meant to be weird and dumb and they just went too far and accidentally made it unplayable then it's comparable to D:tD. As to the other, I don't really hate it I'm more just taking issue with that base idea of presenting something that is not a game as one. Obviously getting mad on the behalf of anyone who actually bought the thing back on the day is silly, regardless of whether they knew what they were getting into or not.

HoL is a work of satire. Regardless of how well you think it hits that mark, and it's certainly valid to say "actually this is kinda dumb," presenting itself as a game is the entire point. Because it's a satire of roleplaying games. What the hell else should it be presenting itself as?

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.

LornMarkus posted:

Yeah, but I'm pretty much right there with you. Even if the book was screamingly funny, making people pay money for a game that doesn't work is kind of a dick move. The much better way that was done was with Dungeon the Dragoning, where it was released for free. It really is funny how dumb and silly it is, and it probably isn't at all playable but having not spent money on it (or made my friends drop any cash on it) I'd be happy to try and see if it does explode when played.

Hell, even assuming the game was released before it was feasible to just drop it on the web and let people go nuts, they could have just printed it on super cheap paper and threw a couple in with every shipment of other stuff they sent out.

There's also supplements for it. Including one that covers the character creation that the core book says the game shouldn't have.

Kai Tave posted:

HoL is a work of satire. Regardless of how well you think it hits that mark, and it's certainly valid to say "actually this is kinda dumb," presenting itself as a game is the entire point. Because it's a satire of roleplaying games. What the hell else should it be presenting itself as?

We covered this as well. Basically said it's like the Jeff Dunham of RPGs. Yes it's theoretically a comedy, but the proof is in being funny.

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012
Fallen Rib
The real punchline to HoL is that a lot of the things in it that are dumb, from inconsistent or outright missing mechanics to illegible stylistic decisions, are all things that you can readily find in many more serious roleplaying games including a lot of White Wolf's own output.

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.

Kai Tave posted:

The real punchline to HoL is that a lot of the things in it that are dumb, from inconsistent or outright missing mechanics to illegible stylistic decisions, are all things that you can readily find in many more serious roleplaying games including a lot of White Wolf's own output.

This is 100% spot on. The whole back half of HoL is endless boring useless historical setting detail, with a variety of insufferable in-universe author POVs. In this, it is basically White Wolf.

Bieeanshee
Aug 21, 2000

Not keen on keening.


Grimey Drawer
Yes. Buttery wHoLsomeness is the obligatory Player's Companion book loaded with poo poo that overcomplicates things and/or barely fits with the game's context. It's stupid, random lifepaths, Werewolf totems, and Vampire's player guide including poo poo like rocket launchers.

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LornMarkus
Nov 8, 2011

Kai Tave posted:

HoL is a work of satire. Regardless of how well you think it hits that mark, and it's certainly valid to say "actually this is kinda dumb," presenting itself as a game is the entire point. Because it's a satire of roleplaying games. What the hell else should it be presenting itself as?

Realistically? Either as a book detailing how they created the raddest roleplaying game ever, or as a roleplaying game that actually works (better, at least). I mean, fundamentally the disagreement I think we're having comes down to the question of "is a game that's attempting to satirize games required to be a satire in functional play as well?" A satirical movie that doesn't work as a movie is just a bad thing, but that's probably getting down to some really split hairs and differing opinions.

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